Preliminary Skill Update Notes - 23 April 2010

nah 7 or 8 mesmers, with consumables and other holiday related drops you could have 2 mesmers play monk, i healer and one prot with max fast casting and still get over 12 in heal or prot depending what stuff you have

Panic is going to be the new meta. I'm telling you now, it WILL.


This is the kind of skill to completely shut down a mob, ha ha!

I still play original Doom to this day. To this day I currently always playing it on the 4th level of difficulty with the "fast monsters" setting turned on, meaning that as soon as I'm seeing monsters will throw their attacks at me.

But when I'm not really in the mood for a challenge and just want to play through it in a more casual setting, I turn down the difficulty and turn off the fast monsters setting. Then I just playthrough it.

The same should be said of Guild Wars. If you don't want to have a stressful time, then you should be able to enjoy the Normal mode variants. Instead it would currently be like in Doom if you started with the rocket at the first level and it had infinite ammo.

My point is, the game never needed PvE skills. If a player was gonna have a rough time then he should be doing so in Normal Mode. Otherwise you get the sloppy mess we have right now, where peak efficiency is reached nearly by looking at a skillbar.

And the other thing that should be quoted is this:

For a lot of people, just telling them to "pretend the game is balanced" i.e. by not using the overpowered facets of the game isn't terribly enjoyable. Simply put.

But in doom, hard difficulty and easy difficulty yields the exact same reward (none, other than enjoyment). Good luck getting RPG players to accept getting even WORSE drop/reward ratio when it is already so bad in HM already. 2 Gems -> 1 Gem FTL. They should have either made HM and NM have the same drops and leave only the challenge and HoM as an incentive (like doom), or at least rebalance the drop system so that people won't feel like they're at a massive disadvantage unless they play HM WITH gimmicks. The current systems splits the player base from the already dying population where most would prefer to use AI bots.

We are aware that some skills would be OP - this is a preview to give you an idea about the general direction.

We are still testing and evaluating.

Before update notes:

"OMG mesmers are useless, when are they going to do something about it? OMG yet another update and mesmers are still useless! No one cares about mesmers!"

After update notes:
And the update is not even out yet.

Hmmm... People must be so busy.

Harder settings provide better rewards? Who'da thunk it? It's part of the encouragement to becoming a better player. Rewards being "bad" overall isn't the issue here. Also fix't.

What year did you say this would be released?

That's good, keep em coming. Or nerf all OP skills of other classes.
Until then it'd be fine for mesmers to have some OP arsenal of their own, and then nerf them along with other OP skills other classes use. Up to this point. And beyond.

BIMONTHLY UPDATE!

Stop being so anxious, they said they would go from monthly updates to bimonthly updates. Since then we've had 1 update and it's only been 2 months(or so) since they announced this new system.

When Anet says they will stick to a schedule they stick to it!

When it's done(TM).

thank you for replying and acknowledging some skills are a tad OP. next question if it can be answered, what about the enemy mobs builds that use 1 or more of the skills? is there any plans to address that at the same time before the update release?

Sorry stopped reading here. You do realize PvE skills are why so many people have left in the 1st place right? The game would of been much better off if they never added EoTN Pve skills, because they've made the game just what you said, a game for idiots that don't want to use their heads.

That is part of what we are looking at, yes.

same could be said of any game, irrelevant.
this is indeed completely true, if you don't like pve skills, no one is putting a gun to your head making you, no one is ruining your pve experience by using it themselves.

Erys Vasburg will be a solid henchman choice...

It would be pretty lame to have a big update for a single profession not do what it was intended to do.

Thanks for the feedback, first of all

Second of all, will we being seeing ANY other profession with skill changes besides mesmer?

From the preview:

"A few other balance issues are being worked on in parallel and will be included in the same build if they are testing well enough. These will NOT include major changes to the Dervish (and in particular scythes), non-“Imbagon” Paragons, and the smiting line for the Monk. All of those are things we’ve been considering for major updates of their own. None are far enough along to be a part of this update."

1. I'd think that you'd end up with a lot of missed casts when the target dies too early for some people to CoP. (Of course, you should be picking the most durable target to start with...)

2. I might be willing to consider forcing that amount of team planning (and forcing people to bring a number of worthless hexes to make it work) to be an acceptable degree of nerf in itself. After all, a-net seems intent on leaving degenerate tank-n-spank viable, just as long as it's not utterly mindless.

3. Perhaps you'd be happier with "remove 2 mesmer hexes" or "remove all mesmer hexes" instead?

ummmm...if they stuck to the bimonthly schedule, then the update should be this week. however, they are clearly not sticking to the bimonthly schedule because those that are capable of reading would find this:

I think we can safely assume that the new scedule is the "When it's Done" schedule :P

OMFG!!!! Wastrels worry will have AoE...skill abuse to follow in UW and FoW maybe?

The only way I could slightly appreciate PvE skills (or the entire concept overpowered abilities/tools themselves) is if they were treated as training wheels. In Rock Band 2 (and this is one of my favorite examples) you can play with the "No Fail Mode" on if you so choose, but doing so prevents you from earning any achievements or being able to contribute to the high scores.

To have fun. Yes, fun does not mean it has to be the most efficient way to play it. That is just you.


So you are unable to make a decision, that means YOU are the problem not the PvE skills.

Thanks to heroes and henchmen you can say that for 99% of all the content.

Not everyone has the same definition of "fun". Not everyone is able to find satisfaction in breezing through an area with zero effort, and not everyone likes knowing that the only reason they are being challenged is because they've gimped themselves.

For Street Fighter, I don't want to "roll nubs", I want to play with my roommate, and that's because he's one of the best players I've ever known for the game. I want to play against him because he's just as if not better than me, I want to play against him because it's a challenge. I want to be able to give everything I got on me, use the best moves at my disposal, all because it's gratifying and enjoyable.

I still stand behind my previous post. I see no reason nor need for PvE skills - or any type of imba, for that matter - to exist in Guild Wars.

fixing the smiting line? just give us back HW

If that is your stance, then go to Sardelac and suggest that all players be given access to BAMPH.

I have to disagree with this. If i can't join a human party unless i use PvE skills (because they will kick me if not), then PvE skills are ruining my PvE experience. And the same can be said for every imba skill or imba build (remember ursan?). I think it's sad when i have to play on my own to be able to use builds out of the meta (which are still effective).

I'm all for different builds but we aren't really talking about that here, at least you aren't are you? To me it seems you are saying that regardless of what 7 of the 8 ppl in a full human party say, you insist on using your build, and if not, you'll go play with yourself rather than be flexible enough to use what the party wants, regardless of the fact that they outvote you 7 to 1.

That is just semantics IMO. Find a group that wants you to use your own builds, or play alone. Pretty simple really. Democratic and all.

I think you're missing the point. PvE skills are overpowered, and as a result of being overpowered result in a stale, degenerate meta because you'd have to be stupid or a masochist not to use them, and if most people enjoyed using terrible builds we'd see more warriors spamming flare.

Now, I myself wouldn't support the idea of getting rid of them in the game's current state (without TNTF and SY, Paragons literally have nothing worth doing), but that doesn't change the fact that there is a legitimate argument against them.

As someone who has been playing Mesmer as a primary character since the start of GW -- This was a very pleasant surprise.

At this point I rarely ever use Mesmer skills as primary features on my bar - It's sad but the benefits are just generally not worth it. I'd love for that to change, and for my class to gain a little uniqueness back.

Although I'd hope in this update that they also look at monster AI being absurd with the interrupts. Seriously - Twitch-based interrupt mechanisms so strongly favor non-PCs that I'm wary about making them even more powerful.

Wastrel's Worry + boss with 50% shorter hex duration (Proph etc.) = epic AoE win?

You are not gimping yourself, you are challenging yourself. I don`t think that speedrunners and solo players ( playing a party based game with a single character, e.g: Baldurs Gate 2 or Wizardry 8) are gimping themselves. They are creating a challenge for themselves using everything the game provides. Obviously having a game editor like Oblivion has would be better, but it is not necessary.

They are the ones going into the forest to find a place to play and have fun, while the other ones are crying for mommy to bring them another video game/another thing to keep them entertained for a while.

There is no way ANet can make the game a fun challenge for everyone of the thousands of players. Expecting that is what a spoiled child would expect.

If the game is too easy for you, finding the sweet spot of a fun challenge for yourself is pretty easy there are numerous options you can try. If the game is too hard, there is not much a player can do, especially if he/she cannot play for hours.

It is not gimping yourself it is facing the challenge of playing the game under new conditions choosen by yourself. It is the challenge of answering this question: Can I beat this mission/game under these conditions? And yes it is a test of your willpower too.

The only question is : Will this update finally put an end to all those elite area speed clear builds ?, and the answer is clearly ,once again ,no .

I agree on the fact that mesmer in pve ( as paragon) was underrated , and not much used , but there are more important problems in the game that need to be solved than this seriously , especially when we do have to wait months to get an update ... ( Sc farming pve , restarts everywhere in pvp ).

I work at a LAN center. We have a Wii. Sometimes a little kid wants to play a game on the Wii, but he also wants someone to play with them, and I'm the usual go-to guy for that.

This one kid wanted to play Brawl. I have a LOT of time racked up in Brawl and I main Falco. But this kid was, well, a kid, and he wasn't very good. At all. So to even the playing field we turned on most of the items, I played as Jigglypuff, and I played with the "skill" of a level 3 (out of 9) bot. And I died, quite a lot.

Some people do indeed find this fun to do everyday, but I don't. Some people dig indigo but I can't. Not everyone finds making it challenging themselves to be terribly enjoyable, otherwise I wouldn't see why we'd make difficulty settings past "easy".

Point is, not everyone prefers to blindfold themselves for a hurdle. Many people prefer like-minded and equally skilled opponents. I personally became a much better player trying to beat a lvl 9 CPU in Brawl than I did fighting a level 1 CPU while pretending I was a lvl 0 CPU, and it was also a whole lot more fun.

This is true - hence why I see little gain in making everything easier for everyone when you, as a developer, have the ability to cater to different skill levels through alternate difficulty levels. If a lot of people are having a challenging time even on the Normal setting, then you create the Easy setting. You don't turn the Hard setting into the Easy setting.

So in summation:
1. Imposing challenges on yourself isn't favored by everyone,
2. PvE skills and other imba is bad for the game.

Well, i usually play what they tell me to, and i agree with you when you say that the best thing would be to find a party of people who match my gamestyle. I was only complaining about the fact that this last thing is quite difficult, so if i want to try new or different things i usually end up playing alone. I have no problem accepting my teammates decisions when i play with other people, but when the builds they tell me to run are always the same (and we've got 3000 skills..), despite the fact that there are other effective non-meta builds, well, allow me to be a little bored

Regarding the topic, i was saying that IMHO this situation is caused by the presence of imba builds/skills, which end up being the only being used by people.

mesmers are balanced, better buff eles :/

I second that.
Got around 2000 hours on my ele, almost at 25 titles but she's never been quite competent in HM because the "huge" ele AoE damage gets reduced by an outrageous amount. I only play defensive builds (i.e. B-Surge) or some kind of armor-ignoring damage build (Discord caller) when I solo. When I team-up I find it fun to play things like ER protter.

Would be nice if eles would get some buffs which made them more viable in HM, not that they are bad atm but they get outshined by other classes, that's why I usually form my bar with skills from other classes combined with PvE-only skills.

I quite like that they're looking at tweaking the monsters in HM (casting times not shortened below 1 sec). Would be good if they lowered the AL at least for elemental damage.
This would make Ele's more viable in HM and also help to stop people funnelling builds towards classes/skills that do armour-ignoring damage such as Discord and potentially the buffed mesmer skills.

Lowering the AL as well as the proposed cast time changes would be pretty much turning it into NM. I think what you are really trying to say is that HM should have been implemented differently. HM is HM because foes are higher lvl (therefore higher armor, higher health and higher attributes) and faster cast time. Now I'm not against the proposed changes to HM cast times, I can see how they make it more accessible to mesmers but at the same time I do think that this change is simplifying HM.

As everyone knows, the fastest way to shut down foes is to kill them, and that, to me, is just not what mesmers are meant to do. You may say that I'm very 2005, but in my opinion mesmers dont kill stuff, instead they make it easy for other party members to do their job. I do like these changes, they are an exciting change, possibly bringing mesmers into the mainstream. Panic sounds brilliant (If a little over powered), the Aoe hexes will be effective. But I do feel they turn the mesmer into a damage dealer.

But that is how the game is. Players have had long enough to optimise builds for every area, we know exactly what spawns where and how to kill it. We dont need a party member to shut down the enemy; except for very rare circumstances we never have done. Unfortunately that is how PvE is, from the way it was designed in the early years to how currently mesmers are underpowered compared to the overpowerment (did I make up a word?) of everything else.

We cant expect the live team to change this (And I do not, I accept the game as it is, and enjoy it!), they simply do not have the resources to do so. I cannot really ask for anything more than they have given me, I have spent £150 on this game in the last 55 months, I think I have got my moneys worth!

To sum it up, I think what I'm trying to say is that athough I do no think these are the optimal changes (Optimal been if money grew on trees) that could be made to the game, they sound fantastic. I do like the sound of them, I think the live team and test krewe has found some great changes to mesmers.

I apologise if this post is a little bit all over the place, but when someone hands me a bottle of beer... well we all know what happens.