Being viable, useful, or even just being a strong choice to bring to the team is what I look at But "viable", "useful" and "being a strong choice" aren't well defined. If I bring someone to a group, I expect to notice thier effect on clearing the zone/dungeon/whatever I notice Cynn's effect when I'm clearing the zone / dungeon / whatever. This isnt even necessarily about a panic mesmer, its about any class in general Are you implying the Panic Mesmer is on the same level of power as a MB Fire Ele?. I also usually change my team setup based on what area I'm in, I dont believe in the one build fits all idea So do I. It takes 15 seconds to look ahead, 15 more to consider what to bring, and all of 1 minute to make the changes I generally do all this in less than 20 seconds; it's just a matter of load template. I don't get your point

Are you claiming that Panic Mesmers are "viable", "useful" and "a strong choice" because you notice their effect on clearing the zone / dungeon / whatever? If so you're implying that Water Eles are "viable", "useful" and "a strong choice" because any competent player is going to notice enemies moving slower (i.e. have an effect). So what? It doesn't make Water a good element; in fact Water is clearly the weakest of the four elements available to Elementalists, and no good player is going to use a Water Ele with his three hero slots - if he uses an Elementalist at all.

I stand by what I said: clear times are the best way of distinguishing between builds. You clear out overly defensive builds who kill slowly, overly offensive builds who keep dying, subpar defensive builds which require more support to work and subpar offensive builds that deal less damage than other options.

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

20 Jul 2010 at 10:28 - 168

Tested Panic again both on myself and heroes. On myself it's a "fun skill" for a moment and that's it. I prefer both PI and Ineptitude builds to Panic. On heroes, Panic is shit. Ok, it's not exactly shit, it's just a mediocre skill that is so hyped out here that one would expect this skill to completely cripple enemy mob where "you don't need other skills" as some said. In reality, heroes cast Panic even on solo monsters, and mesmer hero chronically lacks energy.
Taking Panic means not taking great skills such as Cry of Frustration and Overload, for example (oh sure you can take them, except they might fail because of panic effects, or antisynergize which I hate). I invest in FC and Domination and have what, a bunch of mediocre skills to choose from after I chose Panic.

I have myself and 3 heroes - plus set henchmen. That means for myself I have to choose something that will either be the best or most fun. Panic I don't find the best - I'd rather run Psychic Scythe, EVAS spam or Ineptitude build. I don't find Panic most fun either. Now, sure it can be fun for 30 min. The problem is that Panic makes me into an auto-interrupt bot. Maybe ANet saw what's going on with bots in PvP and thought "hey, people want that, auto-interrupts" and gave us that. Thing is, I don't like it. I want interactivity. Action. Reaction. Being involved. Panic is a passive skill that brings mesmer skill to a minimum. You can be good mesmer nowdays without being a good mesmer, if you get what I mean. Welcome mesmer class, to the community of other classes.

That being said, I'm pretty sure Panic will be somewhat better when you're on defense, when huge mobs are coming to you, mobs that spam a bunch of skills. In a place where you can use choke points and camp. I have no doubt that Panic will be better in such a situation than in an average PvE area. Is in a situation ideal for Panic, Panic better than PI and other stuff? Honestly, I don't know, and don't care. I'm not going to support a skill pointing at one mission or quest and saying "but here Panic is good!". Maybe so, but unless I'm feeling creative I'm not going to change my team build for every quest, mission and zone, when 1 build beats it all efficiently, and in more fun way.

As far as I'm concerned, Panic is oh so overrated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury View Post

By that reasoning, the mes with a scythe outputs some pretty massive damage with the scythe an the associated phys buffs and procs, and its more than quite noticeable when stuff blows up, and the sustainable dps is higher than what ever caster bar you run...if your looking for dps.. Not just raw dps. Don't forget Psychic Instability elite, especially if using consumable that shortens recharge. IMO, it's the best mesmer elite, and most versatile because you don't need to invest in two attributes like Ineptitude or Panic (which are both inferior anyway).

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

20 Jul 2010 at 11:01 - 169

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip View Post

In reality, heroes cast Panic even on solo monsters, and mesmer hero chronically lacks energy.

Mesmer heroes perpetually have that problem. With 3 energy gain skills they seem to get by though. And Hero skill usage is poor, so no surprise there.

Quote: Originally Posted by The Josip View Post

Taking Panic means not taking great skills such as Cry of Frustration and Overload, for example (oh sure you can take them, except they might fail because of panic effects, or antisynergize which I hate). I invest in FC and Domination and have what, a bunch of mediocre skills to choose from after I chose Panic. Cry of Frustration doesn't have anti-synergy with Panic. It's neutral. Given the two have very similar effects (AoE Interrupt), it doesn't matter all that much if Cry interrupts something instead of Panic (and Cry's interrupt is superior).

Quote: Originally Posted by The Josip View Post

The problem is that Panic makes me into an auto-interrupt bot. Maybe ANet saw what's going on with bots in PvP and thought "hey, people want that, auto-interrupts" and gave us that. Thing is, I don't like it. I want interactivity. Action. Reaction. Being involved. Panic is a passive skill that brings mesmer skill to a minimum. You can be good mesmer nowdays without being a good mesmer, if you get what I mean. Welcome mesmer class, to the community of other classes. Panic isn't so good that you can neglect the rest of your bar, as you said. Just because your elite is a passive skill, doesn't mean the rest of your bar is. Mistrust is an excellent skill and whilst it may seem unnecessary with Panic, it's still decent damage. You can still take Cry of Frustration without losing anything which is still half decent damage. All you really lose is a reliable Overload.
The problem isn't; "There's too much anti-synergy". It's "The rest of Domination Magic is shit".

Quote: Originally Posted by The Josip

That being said, I'm pretty sure Panic will be somewhat better when you're on defense, when huge mobs are coming to you, mobs that spam a bunch of skills. In a place where you can use choke points and camp. I have no doubt that Panic will be better in such a situation than in an average PvE area. "Being on defense" doesn't have much to do about it. Panic clearly becomes more powerful against larger mobs (hence it's almost always taken for Battle for Lion's Arch, where the swarming mobs are very big). This is nice because it flips around a historical problem with Mesmers - they become much weaker against larger mobs.
Other potential uses would be for the large Awakened mobs in the Desolation or perhaps the heavier caster mobs in various Dungeons. I don't know how it would fair against the Summit mobs in Slaver's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

As far as I'm concerned, Panic is oh so overrated. Agreed, but I don't think it's as bad as you're making it out to be. Of course, I haven't tested it as much as you probably have.

Quote: I rate it as #3 mesmer elite. So I wouldn't say that's bad.

I just think it's overhyped in general. If you're a mesmer, sure you don't have 10 choices for elite. With heroes it's different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

IMO, it's the best mesmer elite, and most versatile because you don't need to invest in two attributes like Ineptitude or Panic (which are both inferior anyway). So you fill up with Inspiration? Or do you scurry around looking for a suitable secondary?
I agree that Psychic Instability is potentially the best Mesmer elite right now. It's a shame that heroes really do not use it very well, but in the hands of a good human this is could be devastating to the enemy. The problem with PI, is that you need to max out Fast Casting.

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

20 Jul 2010 at 11:12 - 170

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post

Agreed, but I don't think it's as bad as you're making it out to be.

This is nice because it flips around a historical problem with Mesmers - they become much weaker against larger mobs. Nice observation. Yes, it certainly makes mesmer a man for all seasons. Which is good, since mesmer is supposed to be someone who has a solution for everything if he adapts.

Haggis of Doom

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2009

TGB

20 Jul 2010 at 15:05 - 171

Hmm, why not WW on a Panic Mistrust Cry bar?

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

21 Jul 2010 at 23:20 - 172

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

Hmm, why not WW on a Panic Mistrust Cry bar? I've been trying Panic, Mistrust, WW, CoP and some other stuff on my Mes. Mistrust is good, Panic is good, Wastrel's Worry isn't. It doesn't trigger very often.
There's bugger all else though, so unless I take one of the Norn shouts or EVAS, I might as well take it

The Drunkard

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2007

Still looking

Rt/

23 Jul 2010 at 01:49 - 173

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post

Yes that is too much defense. In normal 8-man situations

Please define "normal" for me. I "normally" play only elite areas these days, yet my alliance uses Panic quite frequently in most areas aside from the EoTN dungeons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post

if you have a human ER, one healer is enough and you don't need support. If you're running H/H, 1.5 healers is enough. In my H/H teams these days I run Mhenlo plus a Rit with Kaolai / Spirit Light / Mend Body And Soul at most. The remainder of the team are there to deal damage, although they also absorb a great deal of damage.

And if you don't have access to an ER or are unable to use it due to the nature of the area, then what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post

I stand by what I said: clear times are the best way of distinguishing between builds. You clear out overly defensive builds who kill slowly, overly offensive builds who keep dying, subpar defensive builds which require more support to work and subpar offensive builds that deal less damage than other options. As I've stated before, panic helps easy the monk's job. If you go into an area with inexperienced people, it's safer to grab a panic mesmer than it is to bring another MoP along. Clear times mean nothing when the group fails, and the extra five to ten min of time gained by ditching a support class is wasted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip View Post

Quote: Yea you're right in one thing - that's a typical PuG-like build there. Nothing special in it, impresses no one, it's on the line of "Whatever, let's get the mission done, everyone ready?".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom Hmm, why not WW on a Panic Mistrust Cry bar? Panic is counter-productive with WW. WW fails when a foe uses a skill, while Panic triggers when a foe uses a skill. If you want to use WW, change to PI instead. HigherMinion Forge Runner Join Date: May 2008 East Anglia, UK Order of [Thay] N/ 23 Jul 2010 at 07:04 - 174 Panic can also be helpful for ERs in heavy enchant stripping areas, and condition/hex spamming. I'm thinking Foundry of Fail. Jeydra Forge Runner Join Date: May 2008 23 Jul 2010 at 07:20 - 175 You're the one who referred to normal 8-man situations, so tell me what you mean by "normal". Of course Panic helps the Monk's job. It's a defensive skill. You could say the same of "Save Yourselves!" or bringing another ER Ele with Prot Bond, etc etc etc. Clear times mean nothing if the group fails, yes - but I've done everything I've tried (with the exception of BLA HM, which I've yet to seriously attempt) without Panic. And with three mainly offensive heroes. And with one henchman Monk. And I don't fail. Here's something else: you may not agree with Josip, but you have to admit that Josip is contributing new knowledge or at least reporting his / her own finds. You haven't posted anything of that sort. Cast less stones, to be honest. Quote:
And if you don't have access to an ER or are unable to use it due to the nature of the area, then what? I pretty much never use ER heroes. They're pretty weak and giving up a damage hero for a defensive one is not my style. This question does not apply to me. @Panic discussion - I think Panic is a reasonably good elite but still not outstanding. My experience running a Panic hero in Ooze Pit showed that if you can hex the entire mob with it, you seriously decrease the threat posed by that mob. Powerful though this effect is, there are many drawbacks, not least that Panic is fragile defense and you cannot rely on it the same way you can rely on Aegis. Aegis will always affect your entire party when cast; Panic is much less likely to. There're other elites and other builds regardless, so I've still got lots of ground to cover with Mesmer heroes. Life Bringing Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Jul 2008 Fissure of Woe [LOD]/[GS]/[DL]/[LOD*] N/P 23 Jul 2010 at 07:57 - 176 So i gave BLA HM a try tonight, and i must say it was not fun. Furthest i made it was the perfected armor, and i only managed that once. I usually ended up getting pushed back repeatedly by Isaiahs rspike team until Salma died. I tried with standard spiritway rits and tried both an MM and a panic. To say the least, i wasn't very happy with my results under either option. Also note that i was at a disadvantage because i was using a sin. Melee didn't work out so well so i stepped back to a A/Me AP nuker. Lopezus Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Mar 2007 MDD D/W 23 Jul 2010 at 10:35 - 177 Quote:	Quote: Originally Posted by The Josip Taking Panic means not taking great skills such as Cry of Frustration and Overload, for example (oh sure you can take them, except they might fail because of panic effects, or antisynergize which I hate). I invest in FC and Domination and have what, a bunch of mediocre skills to choose from after I chose Panic. Cry of Frustration doesn't have anti-synergy with Panic. It's neutral. Given the two have very similar effects (AoE Interrupt), it doesn't matter all that much if Cry interrupts something instead of Panic (and Cry's interrupt is superior). I agree after playing with Panic some more i don't find that anti-synergy, panic is defensive skill, spamable aoe intrupt over time, basicly it's fire and forget, hex mobs and then you can concentrate on other tasks, while panic is doing its magic. The Josip Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Aug 2009 Me/ 23 Jul 2010 at 11:40 - 178 Quote: Originally Posted by Lopezus I agree after playing with Panic some more i don't find that anti-synergy, panic is defensive skill, spamable aoe intrupt over time, basicly it's fire and forget, hex mobs and then you can concentrate on other tasks, while panic is doing its magic. 8 skills please. Lopezus Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Mar 2007 MDD D/W 23 Jul 2010 at 14:30 - 179 Quote:	8 skills please. This resposne is getting old, and no need for this.What do you expect from me, to pull a rabbit from my hat ? You know how domination line looks like perfectly well, so you can make panic skillbar yourself. Basicly, panic,mistrust,usignet,cop, and some energy managment and rest you can choose form: pve skills,empathy,eburn,shatter hex/enchatment,ww. All i'm saying in terms of pugging, panic build made you actually really usefull to the team. From my experience: Z-mission Hm,Wik HM in pugs, panic is teh shit like Imbagon build for paras, it can save your regular pug's ass, something that AP spammer or Ineptitude couldn't. The Josip Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Aug 2009 Me/ 23 Jul 2010 at 15:48 - 180 Quote: Originally Posted by Lopezus This resposne is getting old, and no need for this.What do you expect from me, to pull a rabbit from my hat ? You know how domination line looks like perfectly well, so you can make panic skillbar yourself. Basicly, panic,mistrust,usignet,cop, and some energy managment and rest you can choose form: pve skills,empathy,eburn,shatter hex/enchatment,ww.

All i'm saying in terms of pugging, panic build made you actually really usefull to the team. From my experience: Z-mission Hm,Wik HM in pugs, panic is teh shit like Imbagon build for paras, it can save your regular pug's ass, something that AP spammer or Ineptitude couldn't. Let me put it this way: does your PuG group take 1 or 2 monks?

If 2, then that Panic build is indeed really useful to the PuG team.. when the team is bad. If the team is decent, I'd take AP EVAS spammer build any day and just finish the mission.

You're also wrong about AP spammer - AP spammer can spam knockdowns (EVAS) and daze (if 6-second long Technobabble.. tried it?), and instantly-killing spammable Pain Inverter - which is very efficient way to deal with dangerous casters. But unlike that Panic build you posted, AP EVAS spammer will annihilate the opposition. The sheer fact that AP spammer annihilate foes so fast also means less defense is needed. Alternatively, you cast Panic and wait 10 minutes per mob till foes interrupt themselves to death.

Basically, that build you posted, and the way you argumented it, just proves to me what I was saying before - Panic is good for fail teams as far as general PvE goes. You could defend Defy Pain in a same way when playing a Warrior: "Ah well I use Defy Pain because I can't rely on monks". True, you can't. If you're in a fail team. If you're not, Defy Pain is totally useless.

---

Someone also said that Panic is better than PI because PI lasts 4 seconds. Here's a fun part: when I play with PI (H/Hing), I knock down mob, smack smack, and the mob is gone. Few stragglers, if any, are easily handled. 4 seconds is a huge amount of time and serves to "absorb" initial damage - which is always great. Then the enemy has 4 seconds to do something.. after which knockdown, smack smack. You can time it right, you can choose which skills to interrupt and let go the useless ones. But yea, Panic is spam so it's going to be loved more than PI. Panic lasts full duration, and let's face it, most teams take ages to clear a mob. Good teams don't.
Of course, I've to repeat for 53rd time that I'm referring to general PvE.

There. That's my opinion. Now, have a nice gameplay and enjoy your Panic.

Lopezus

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2007

MDD

D/W

23 Jul 2010 at 16:42 - 181

Quote:

Let me put it this way: does your PuG group take 1 or 2 monks?

If 2, then that Panic build is indeed really useful to the PuG team.. when the team is bad. If the team is decent, I'd take AP EVAS spammer build any day and just finish the mission.

You're also wrong about AP spammer - AP spammer can spam knockdowns (EVAS) and daze (if 6-second long Technobabble.. tried it?), and instantly-killing spammable Pain Inverter - which is very efficient way to deal with dangerous casters. But unlike that Panic build you posted, AP EVAS spammer will annihilate the opposition. The sheer fact that AP spammer annihilate foes so fast also means less defense is needed. Alternatively, you cast Panic and wait 10 minutes per mob till foes interrupt themselves to death.

Basically, that build you posted, and the way you argumented it, just proves to me what I was saying before - Panic is good for fail teams as far as general PvE goes. You could defend Defy Pain in a same way when playing a Warrior: "Ah well I use Defy Pain because I can't rely on monks". True, you can't. If you're in a fail team. If you're not, Defy Pain is totally useless. Well, so you know it's true in a general way but you should also know it's half down to that semantic crap. "Fail teams" or "general reality of pve", who cares ? Panic builds give mesmer fitting role of reliable interuptor (something mesmer struggle for long time), similiar to what imbagon did for paras. AP/EVAS spam still own, has its limitations though.

kanuks

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

23 Jul 2010 at 16:44 - 182

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Yea you're right in one thing - that's a typical PuG-like build there. Nothing special in it, impresses no one, it's on the line of "Whatever, let's get the mission done, everyone ready?".

Let me put it this way: does your PuG group take 1 or 2 monks?

If 2, then that Panic build is indeed really useful to the PuG team.. when the team is bad. If the team is decent, I'd take AP EVAS spammer build any day and just finish the mission.

You're also wrong about AP spammer - AP spammer can spam knockdowns (EVAS) and daze (if 6-second long Technobabble.. tried it?), and instantly-killing spammable Pain Inverter - which is very efficient way to deal with dangerous casters. But unlike that Panic build you posted, AP EVAS spammer will annihilate the opposition. The sheer fact that AP spammer annihilate foes so fast also means less defense is needed. Alternatively, you cast Panic and wait 10 minutes per mob till foes interrupt themselves to death.

Basically, that build you posted, and the way you argumented it, just proves to me what I was saying before - Panic is good for fail teams as far as general PvE goes. You could defend Defy Pain in a same way when playing a Warrior: "Ah well I use Defy Pain because I can't rely on monks". True, you can't. If you're in a fail team. If you're not, Defy Pain is totally useless.

---

Someone also said that Panic is better than PI because PI lasts 4 seconds. Here's a fun part: when I play with PI (H/Hing), I knock down mob, smack smack, and the mob is gone. Few stragglers, if any, are easily handled. 4 seconds is a huge amount of time and serves to "absorb" initial damage - which is always great. Then the enemy has 4 seconds to do something.. after which knockdown, smack smack. You can time it right, you can choose which skills to interrupt and let go the useless ones. But yea, Panic is spam so it's going to be loved more than PI. Panic lasts full duration, and let's face it, most teams take ages to clear a mob. Good teams don't.
Of course, I've to repeat for 53rd time that I'm referring to general PvE.

There. That's my opinion. Now, have a nice gameplay and enjoy your Panic. You do know that the AI is horrible with PI? Don't act like it cast it as soon as the battle starts. It prioritize other spells way before PI.

Simply put, Panic is very good against huge mobs. I'm thinking urgoz mobs, foundry fights in the famous corner and the last wik quest. Of course Panic isn't that useful against smaller groups.

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

23 Jul 2010 at 17:59 - 183

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks

You do know that the AI is horrible with PI? Don't act like it cast it as soon as the battle starts. It prioritize other spells way before PI.

AI yes; we were talking about mesmer player in a PuG there. I mentioned hero AI few times myself as to why I don't use mesmer heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

who cares ? Panic builds give mesmer fitting role of reliable interuptor (something mesmer struggle for long time), similiar to what imbagon did for paras. Panic doesn't provide reliable interrupts. Panic provides many/some unreliable interrupts.

I am glad that Mesmers now have Panic and PI because they can use something more unique. I still think that Panic is overrated, but sure it's a good still to bring to a PuG - it's fun, you're still doing something useful, without abusing PvE skills like EVAS spammer.

And not just that - for the first time ever Mesmer has a skill whose effect others can see: !! !! !! !! !!

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

03 Aug 2010 at 04:20 - 184

I agree that Panic is overrated.

It is best against a tightly packed group of casters but I don't find it that useful against melee monsters, especially when there is hex removal around.

Also AI tend to prioritize it poorly against other skills by casting it on a solitary target sometimes. At least with PI, you can fit the rest of the hero's bar with long recharge skills so the hero would use PI more often.

The recharge for Panic is also longer than its duration. With PI, you have to put to fast casting and that would reduce your spell durations.

Also some of the best skills are in illusion rather than domination, where you have to pump points for Panic. But yes, for a human mesmer, it makes sense to use Panic over PI. But a hero mesmer has faster reflexes and can deal with PI much better. A human mesmer can also use 3 PvE skills, so their Panic bar can avoid using illusion skills altogether and still get great effects.

On a hero mesmer, I generally prefer PI or Stolen Speed.

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

03 Aug 2010 at 09:57 - 185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

But yes, for a human mesmer, it makes sense to use Panic over PI. But a hero mesmer has faster reflexes and can deal with PI much better. Not so. Try it out. I don't know what ping you have, but when I play on euro servers I interrupt a lot even 3/4 spells. And it's quite easy to TAB to a monster who has 1sec spells (those you want to interrupt anyway) and then PI. For example, you will want to interrupt those eles which are most dangerous anyway, or those necros especially since they usually stand near other casters (such as monk).

I have used Panic in Bogroot last ZB. I did so to test it more since everyone continues to speak so highly of Panic. My opinion is that these people either have bad eyesight and observation skills (as to what Panic does in practice), or simply never played any great mesmer build but a bunch of mediocre ones that people think are "absolutely great if player is skilled" lol. Bogroot is a typical example of how general PvE looks like. You're not going to have 20 monsters balled up waiting for you to Panic them, and on single monsters Panic is useless. When you got 2 or 3 monsters, you really want just to kill them fast since your monks should be able to heal pitiful damage. On mobs Panic is still unreliable. The only area I played where Panic actually worked was DoA - because Panic's usefulness exponentially rises with the number of enemies, especially when they spam skills like mad (haven't tried it in other elite areas).

So there. Right now I think Panic is even worse than I initially thought. Of course, I am not advising that no one uses Panic now. I like seeing various mesmer builds and mesmers of various skill level.

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

03 Aug 2010 at 11:08 - 186

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip View Post

Panic doesn't provide reliable interrupts. Panic provides many/some unreliable interrupts.

Panic is a suppression skill. You put it on an enemy caster mob and suddenly their threat level has severely decreased. It's also very easy to use (yet heroes still manage to screw it up). It's comparable to Enfeebling Blood, Reckless Haste or any other skill that decreases the power of physicals, except it does it to caster mobs.

Someone with half decent ping and good awareness should be able to make good use of Psychic Instability however. The downside is that it requires a monster Fast Casting spec to be truly worthwhile - with that though, it can provide a 4 second window of opportunity where you have free reign over the enemy and you can do that once every 10 seconds or so if the opportunity to do so arises (and yet, heroes won't use very often).
With that high fast casting spec though, you're left to carve out a decent build with mediocre specs into Inspiritation and Domination/Illusion, unless you think you can get away with a full spec into Illusion for Arcane Conundrum as energy management.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

So there. Right now I think Panic is even worse than I initially thought. Of course, I am not advising that no one uses Panic now. I like seeing various mesmer builds and mesmers of various skill level. Right now I have 4 options for my Mesmer:
Fevered Dreams, Panic, PI or AP-Sin spam. I'm of the opinion now that Ineptitude is basically useless for most of PvE.
One of these is a very general build that'll help almost everywhere, one of these works great on caster mobs and is very easy to use, one is great against mobs with casters and is greatly affected by the ability of the player and nature of the mob and the last one is the same boring shit mesmers have always run.
Of those, I'm also of the opinion that two need nerfing.

Beomagi

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2005

03 Aug 2010 at 11:44 - 187

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I can't see much potential in the Mesmer changes. There're only a few skills of note:

1. Psychic Instability. I honestly don't see the big hype behind this skill. So it interrupts and AoE KDs ... so what? It doesn't deal damage. You only have 3 hero slots and you need them for damage. With Rits dealing so much more damage I see no reason to use a Mesmer hero.
2. Psychic Instability + something else from a secondary profession. Major problem here is that you need to sink points into Fast Casting, which means you can't sink points into Inspiration Magic, which means you'll have energy problems. Not to mention all that high spec into Fast Casting doesn't help the secondary profession's recharge times.
3. Keystone Signet. This one's a bit interesting. You can use all your signets for some AoE armour-ignoring damage, AoE interrupts and high armour via Artificier's Insignias. Nonetheless the effects of the signets are nothing significant. Factoring in aftercast the build might deal about 70-80 DPS at best, which is decent but not impressive.
4. Everything else - control, but no damage. Who cares?

I can't see much else to Mesmer heroes. They simply don't deal damage. As far as my standard setup is concerned, I can't drop the minion bomber (essential prots, not to mention meat shield) or the two Rits (heavy damage, some defense). There's simply no room for a Mesmer, and they continue to be subpar. That's my impression.

"It AoE KDs so what?"
It's just one hero. You still have 2 slots open for your spirit hero/mm/healer or whatevet everyone else is running.

Mesmers can get very decent damage from enemies knocked down for 4 seconds. The only skills you can use when kd are stances and shouts - so wastrels worry synergises perfectly providing aoe armor ignoring damage.
Waste not want not also synergises with knocked down foes providing energy.

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

03 Aug 2010 at 12:41 - 188

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beomagi

Mesmers can get very decent damage from enemies knocked down for 4 seconds. The only skills you can use when kd are stances and shouts - so wastrels worry synergises perfectly providing aoe armor ignoring damage.
Waste not want not also synergises with knocked down foes providing energy. From one 4 second knockdown, you can reliably get one Wastrel's Worry trigger.
That's around 100 armour ignoring damage with a small area of effect for 10e, a bit less than 2 seconds casting and two skills, one of which is your elite.
That's not very good.
With the high fast casting spec, WW has an effective recharge of 2 seconds, so you can probably get a second trigger if you change targets in the mob.
It's still not very good though.

Of course this all depends on your heroes being clever.
Heroes are not clever. Heroes are shit at spamming WW when it's appropriate and heroes are shit with Psychic Instability.

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

03 Aug 2010 at 14:33 - 189

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis View Post

I agree, it's comparable to Enfeebling Blood except Enfeebling is not an elite skill.

Enfeebling is also more reliable, which is important. Weakness will make the foe always deal less damage. Panic won't. Panicked foes might cast, and might not cast a skill. They might not cast a weak skill but might cast a spell that will take 1/3hp of entire party. But I wrote about that before so won't repeat myself.

Quote: Someone with half decent ping and good awareness should be able to make good use of Psychic Instability however. The downside is that it requires a monster Fast Casting spec to be truly worthwhile

I never run with less than 9 FC as a mesmer, so 12 FC I don't consider a "monster FC spec". Especially now when FC also reduces recharge.

Quote:

- with that though, it can provide a 4 second window of opportunity where you have free reign over the enemy and you can do that once every 10 seconds or so if the opportunity to do so arises In practice, initial 4 second knockdown gives you a powerful "first strike" option. During this time team can build adrenaline and SY might be up already (if any), prots might be up, some foes might be dead already or blocked. After these 4 sec CoF can be cast on same target which roughly gives another 2 seconds, but also provides damage. 2 seconds later PI is ready to be recast.

Quote:

With that high fast casting spec though, you're left to carve out a decent build with mediocre specs into Inspiritation and Domination/Illusion, unless you think you can get away with a full spec into Illusion for Arcane Conundrum as energy management. Well if you want IDEAL PI build you'll run Psychic Scythe anyway. If you run a caster PI bar you already settled for less-than-optimum solution so who cares. I'd still rather use PI caster bar than PI Panic bar.

Quote:

Right now I have 4 options for my Mesmer:
Fevered Dreams, Panic, PI or AP-Sin spam. I'm of the opinion now that Ineptitude is basically useless for most of PvE. Well, Ineptitude at least causes damage. That makes it good in itself, for start, considering the state of the PvE at the moment.

Cuilan

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2008

Me/

03 Aug 2010 at 14:38 - 190

Ineptitude is nice in Prophecies, since they seem to wand and auto attack a whole lot more.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

03 Aug 2010 at 14:52 - 191

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip View Post

I said it is easier for an AI to interrrupt, that is different from saying it is impossible for a human to interrupt anything. There is no way a human can beat an AI code that lives in the server when it comes to reflexes. The AI can interrupt 1/2 spells often.

It is just more worth it for an AI to bring PI than it is for a human.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

From one 4 second knockdown, you can reliably get one Wastrel's Worry trigger.
That's around 100 armour ignoring damage with a small area of effect for 10e, a bit less than 2 seconds casting and two skills, one of which is your elite.
That's not very good. KD synergizes with many skills in a typical team, not just those in your mesmer bar. Your EVAS would have more opportunities to attack without being killed fast in a mob, your AoE attacks like RoJ, Eruption, etc. would be more effective if the mob is KD.

Most people have problems designing a PI hero bar because with PI, you spec into FC and FC reduces recharge for all mesmer spells in the bar. This causes the other skills in the bar to compete for usage opportunities with PI.

If you want PI to be used more often, have longer recharge skills in the bar.

kanuks

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

03 Aug 2010 at 15:21 - 192

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Not so. Try it out. I don't know what ping you have, but when I play on euro servers I interrupt a lot even 3/4 spells. And it's quite easy to TAB to a monster who has 1sec spells (those you want to interrupt anyway) and then PI. For example, you will want to interrupt those eles which are most dangerous anyway, or those necros especially since they usually stand near other casters (such as monk).

I have used Panic in Bogroot last ZB. I did so to test it more since everyone continues to speak so highly of Panic. My opinion is that these people either have bad eyesight and observation skills (as to what Panic does in practice), or simply never played any great mesmer build but a bunch of mediocre ones that people think are "absolutely great if player is skilled" lol. Bogroot is a typical example of how general PvE looks like. You're not going to have 20 monsters balled up waiting for you to Panic them, and on single monsters Panic is useless. When you got 2 or 3 monsters, you really want just to kill them fast since your monks should be able to heal pitiful damage. On mobs Panic is still unreliable. The only area I played where Panic actually worked was DoA - because Panic's usefulness exponentially rises with the number of enemies, especially when they spam skills like mad (haven't tried it in other elite areas).

So there. Right now I think Panic is even worse than I initially thought. Of course, I am not advising that no one uses Panic now. I like seeing various mesmer builds and mesmers of various skill level. So you tested it in a dungeon where all mobs are not balled together so it sucks? What about using it in a dungeon like Forgewight or Ozze pit with a help of a little aggro management so the groups are balled? That's where you'll see Panic shine. BLA quest too.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

03 Aug 2010 at 15:25 - 193

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks View Post

So you tested it in a dungeon where all mobs are not balled together so it sucks? What about using it in a dungeon like Forgewight or Ozze pit with a help of a little aggro management so the groups are balled? That's where you'll see Panic shine. BLA quest too. Panic is weak in areas with melee mobs and hex removal. But it is very powerful against a tightly packed caster mob, so it depends on the area.

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

03 Aug 2010 at 18:19 - 194

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

There is no way a human can beat an AI code that lives in the server when it comes to reflexes. The AI can interrupt 1/2 spells often.

It is just more worth it for an AI to bring PI than it is for a human.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks

So you tested it in a dungeon where all mobs are not balled together so it sucks? What about using it in a dungeon like Forgewight or Ozze pit with a help of a little aggro management so the groups are balled? That's where you'll see Panic shine "Where not all mobs are balled together.." welcome to PvE.

Look, be my guest. Use Panic wherever you want. Not that I care. In that other forum someone was trying to explain to me how I'm wrong because IW is a great skill and he would know because he has 2 GWAMM mesmers.

You can keep enlisting as many areas as you want, but trust me that I'm not going to waste my time redoing GWAMM on my mesmer just so I find 5 areas where I'd personally take Panic. Who cares, go use Panic, it doesn't require skill anyway to spam it, you'll be alright.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

03 Aug 2010 at 19:41 - 195

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip View Post

No it's not, because hero doesn't use it on recharge, at least not when I was testing it.

Hero also will cast it randomly, which may just be a foe closest to him, and not a foe in the middle of a mob. Also, believe it or not, heroes can miss interrupt. Heroes also may not cast PI as a first skill to knock entire mob down, but may cast 1-2 other skills and then decide to cast PI once mob is spread. Player can also rush in and react faster before mob spreads.. hero, not really. Heroes will use PI randomly, so you can't rely on it (much like Panic), because it's going to be a random effect, not a smooth tactical execution. That doesn't matter as long as the skill bar is designed correctly, they would use PI often enough. A PUG mesmer player would probably rush in and get killed before he gets a chance to interrupt anything. I have seen them missed interrupts alot more often than a mesmer hero.

The Josip

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2009

Me/

03 Aug 2010 at 21:17 - 196

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

how can you actually brag that your reflexes are faster than the AI server code

How can you put words in my mouth and use what I never said as a 'counter-argument'?

Quote:

That doesn't matter as long as the skill bar is designed correctly All that I listed matters to me. I have 3 heroes available. Can PI mesmer hero replace my ER protter with SoH? If he can, cool. If not, mesmer hero is totally useless to me.

Quote:

A PUG mesmer player would probably rush in and get killed before he gets a chance to interrupt anything. I was talking about player leading heroway. Surely you're not trying to rank skills based on how much average PuGer gets from them? Besides, PuGs don't use PI, it's too complicated for them.

Xenomortis

Tea Powered

Join Date: May 2008

03 Aug 2010 at 23:21 - 197

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip View Post

If they're not casting, their threat level is 0. I'm not sure how you're measuring the success of Panic - by the number of interrupts?
The measure of success for Panic is the proportion of skillss that are successfully used over the number of skills that are attempted - the closer this is to 0 the better.
It's obvious Panic is only effective on large caster mobs and it's obvious that it's much less effective against smaller, more disperse caster groups. Fortunately these disperse mobs have a much lower threat level and you can easily deal with them using the rest of your bar. Large groups of casters can have a very high threat level and that's where Panic shines - it greatly lowers their threat level and that is why I bring Mesmers.

As for the point on reliability:
Spells get through a mesmer - that's inherent. When facing several casters, a Mesmer cannot shut them all down. If he can, then the Mesmer skills used probably need nerfing. The nature of HM enemies means that any spell getting through is potentially devastating. However, because fewer get through it is less likely that my backline is going to be overwhelmed.
A similar case is true for enemies under Weakness, but the closer comparison is Blind. The difference here is merely that Blind has a much higher success rate than Panic (it's more complicated when Warriors are encountered though, due to adrenaline) - there's still the inherent unreliability.
I'll talk about Psychic Instability and reliability shortly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip View Post

I never run with less than 9 FC as a mesmer, so 12 FC I don't consider a "monster FC spec". Especially now when FC also reduces recharge.

I used the term "Monster Spec" simply because there's nothing else to really be gained from speccing into it and you have to make sacrifices elsewhere. There's nothing in Fast Casting and the difference in recharge and cast times between 9 and 12 really aren't anything special. However the other attribute lines do have things that benefit from a higher spec.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip View Post

In practice, initial 4 second knockdown gives you a powerful "first strike" option. During this time team can build adrenaline and SY might be up already (if any), prots might be up, some foes might be dead already or blocked. After these 4 sec CoF can be cast on same target which roughly gives another 2 seconds, but also provides damage. 2 seconds later PI is ready to be recast. Yes, except that Cry of Frustration doesn't inherently gain two seconds on the entire mob. You also depend greatly on the ability on opportunity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Well if you want IDEAL PI build you'll run Psychic Scythe anyway. If you run a caster PI bar you already settled for less-than-optimum solution so who cares. I'd still rather use PI caster bar than PI Panic bar. Your first point there I don't agree with. However that's a different argument entirely and beyond the scope of this discussion.
Your second point: "I'd still rather use PI caster bar than PI Panic bar." doesn't make sense. You can't take PI and Panic at the same time. Do you mean PI bar over Panic bar?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Well, Ineptitude at least causes damage. That makes it good in itself, for start, considering the state of the PvE at the moment. SS causes damage. SS isn't good.
My problem with Ineptitude is two fold - it's unreliable at mitigation, especially in a H/H situation and the damage is mediocre. If I want the mitigation option, I'd simply take Fevered Dreams, which only does a little less damage. The nice thing about Ineptitude is that it can deal nicely with spamming ranger mobs, but there are other ways of dealing with them that don't cost my elite. If I want damage, I'd resort to dull AP Sin spam and simply deal with physicals in a different way.

I want to make something clear. I do not think Psychic Instability is worse than Panic.
Psychic Instability is a very low floor, high ceiling skill - it's performance depends greatly on the interrupting ability of the user. It's a little odd that heroes are so bad with it, but I think that's just as well.
Panic has a much higher floor, but a lower ceiling. All I'm arguing here is on the height of the ceiling.
Panic also allows you to make more use of your skill bar, albeit it probably necessitates it.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

04 Aug 2010 at 06:25 - 198

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

All that I listed matters to me. I have 3 heroes available. Can PI mesmer hero replace my ER protter with SoH? If he can, cool. If not, mesmer hero is totally useless to me. Who can it replace? Your MM.

Personally I prefer Stolen Speed over Panic or PI for my caster teams. Stolen Speed is probably the most underrated mesmer elite.

kanuks

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

04 Aug 2010 at 16:54 - 199

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

No it's not, because hero doesn't use it on recharge, at least not when I was testing it. Hero also will cast it randomly, which may just be a foe closest to him, and not a foe in the middle of a mob. Also, believe it or not, heroes can miss interrupt. Heroes also may not cast PI as a first skill to knock entire mob down, but may cast 1-2 other skills and then decide to cast PI once mob is spread. Player can also rush in and react faster before mob spreads.. hero, not really. Heroes will use PI randomly, so you can't rely on it (much like Panic), because it's going to be a random effect, not a smooth tactical execution.

Not to mention #1 problem - if you're using PI hero, it means you're using a mesmer hero. And you don't want a mesmer hero except "for lolz".

"Where not all mobs are balled together.." welcome to PvE.

Look, be my guest. Use Panic wherever you want. Not that I care. In that other forum someone was trying to explain to me how I'm wrong because IW is a great skill and he would know because he has 2 GWAMM mesmers.

You can keep enlisting as many areas as you want, but trust me that I'm not going to waste my time redoing GWAMM on my mesmer just so I find 5 areas where I'd personally take Panic. Who cares, go use Panic, it doesn't require skill anyway to spam it, you'll be alright. Looks like you don't seem to get it so i will it explain slowly.

First you are in the "Heroes and AI" subforum. So were talking about Heroes using Panic. If you want to discuss Panic on a human mesmer then you can go to the mesmer subforum.

Second, if you ever played with a melee class then you would notice that bodyblocking mobs in order to BALL them is very common and easy.

Third, i don't care if there are only 5 areas where Panic is worth it because chance are it's the only 5 areas where u need decent builds to complete it with H/H or hero-way (remember in which subforum we are?). What are these places? SoO, Duncan (Especially forgewight), Foundry, Urgoz, Deep, Ooze pit (very easy but panic is useful if you want a very fast run) and of course the wik BLA quest. Of course, I can do all these areas without Panic but usually using one panic hero in these areas makes the run faster and easier.

Of course if you play a mesmer character it's harder to ball up foes than with a melee character. It's not because it has little use for YOU that it's not good for other classes. You can't deny that the skill get stronger the bigger the ball and it can quickly become the best shutdown skill in all GW against a big group, and YES that includes melees because you know they use skills too right?

And your "it sucks in hex removal area" argument is stupid because any hex doesn't works as well in heavy hex removal. And what are these areas exactly? I have troubles finding one. And since it's nearby range aoe hex that can be spammed every 10 seconds it's actually pretty good in these areas since the monsters will be constantly wasting time removing hexes instead of hurting you or healing themselves.

The Drunkard

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2007

Still looking

Rt/

05 Aug 2010 at 01:49 - 200

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip View Post

Panic doesn't just randomly interrupt (against larget mobs), it selectively interrutpts. Think about it, Anet's coding of monsters makes them spam their skills with no rhyme or reason. Panic ensures that skills that take longer to cast (which generally hit harder) are interrupted, while letting the faster skills go through. So, compared to PI, you have 2 sec of KD and complete shutdown with a small AoE, versus 8-9 seconds of skill shutdown with a few getting through with a much larger AoE. I'm not saying one's better than the other overall, but that they have very different usages.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks View Post

First you are in the "Heroes and AI" subforum. So were talking about Heroes using Panic. If you want to discuss Panic on a human mesmer then you can go to the mesmer subforum.

Try reading the pages in between the first and last in this thread, you find out that many people agree that Panic is used more efficiently on a human than a hero, and that mesmer heroway is subpar compared to using a human mesmer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip View Post

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You're the one who referred to normal 8-man situations, so tell me what you mean by "normal". I have already stated it in my last post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Here's something else: you may not agree with Josip, but you have to admit that Josip is contributing new knowledge or at least reporting his / her own finds. You haven't posted anything of that sort. Cast less stones, to be honest. Funny, I guess I should start my posts with the phrase "After hours of testing." I've spent the better part of this year in GW in elite areas with different builds (SC's and "regular" ones). My satisfaction with panic is due to the fact that I've yet to fail a SC or "regular" clear with a panic mesmer and a smart group. (Personal UWSC record is 54 min. w panic). THAT is where my "knowledge" comes from.

Since you don't seem to actually read my posts and instead nitpick things to troll on I'm going to stop responding to you.