mesmerway?
wind fire and ice
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu
Notice that the only reason he flagged at the beginning is to prevent his heroes from moving forward while he pulled. After pulling he always unflag them immediately.
He has made enough videos and tried enough experiments on HM Shards to know what works and what would not work. Why don't one of you guys try HM Shards yourselves, for a change, on another non-smite h/h build, without micro and runes, and show us how it goes. First off,you can't expect us to use no runes because your "friend" is too cheap/lazy to have them.
Second,you're asking to be shown something you haven't provided-give us a video of you doing SoO.
Also,if you're so sure your build is the bestest evar then you should be doing something like Slavers,which very few hero builds can do(Sabway,Discordway and Ritway all work well modified).
Show us that your Mesmer builds can do well,don't just show us a video of one group in SoO-impress us if you expect us to accept your builds as good.
He has made enough videos and tried enough experiments on HM Shards to know what works and what would not work. Why don't one of you guys try HM Shards yourselves, for a change, on another non-smite h/h build, without micro and runes, and show us how it goes. First off,you can't expect us to use no runes because your "friend" is too cheap/lazy to have them.
Second,you're asking to be shown something you haven't provided-give us a video of you doing SoO.
Also,if you're so sure your build is the bestest evar then you should be doing something like Slavers,which very few hero builds can do(Sabway,Discordway and Ritway all work well modified).
Show us that your Mesmer builds can do well,don't just show us a video of one group in SoO-impress us if you expect us to accept your builds as good.
Dusk_
The circular logic in this thread is ridiculous...
I just read the last 2 pages of this thread in reverse order, thinking some meaningful discussion was taking place, only to find that it was a petty sniping match between a couple of nitpickers and a guy with a non-perfect (but still clean) run-through video.
Mesmers are viable. That's been proven conclusively. Stop arguing your theory-craft against hard evidence. And no, making a comprehensive list of every mistake made in the video does not undermine the end conclusion, so stop trying.
Whether they're comparable, better, or worse than existing builds is still up to debate. And no, arguing "I like prots better" and "Too much micro" is not informative of anything except your own play styles.
I just read the last 2 pages of this thread in reverse order, thinking some meaningful discussion was taking place, only to find that it was a petty sniping match between a couple of nitpickers and a guy with a non-perfect (but still clean) run-through video.
Mesmers are viable. That's been proven conclusively. Stop arguing your theory-craft against hard evidence. And no, making a comprehensive list of every mistake made in the video does not undermine the end conclusion, so stop trying.
Whether they're comparable, better, or worse than existing builds is still up to debate. And no, arguing "I like prots better" and "Too much micro" is not informative of anything except your own play styles.
Jeydra
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myotheraccount
Quote:
Whether they're comparable, better, or worse than existing builds is still up to debate. And no, arguing "I like prots better" and "Too much micro" is not informative of anything except your own play styles.
Maybe, but can you deal with bosses like Borguus Blisterbark or Fendi Nin without Prot Spirit (or a lot of micro)?
Dusk_
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
As I said, nitpicking at tiny points doesn't really mean anything. You accomplished a personal challenge, which is impressive, but running a gimped build on a dare isn't quite the same as having an optimized team that is comparable to pre-existing ones.
Are Mesmer teams great? They could very well be, and evidence certainly seems to suggest it, but I honestly don't have any stake in the matter one way or another.
I was just annoyed at reading through several pages worth of Igor being argumentative on principle, and byteme and wind fire and ice bashing a build purely on their biases and theory-craft. It was 40 posts of "arguments" amounting to: Igor hates Daesu, two guys hate Mesmers, and Daesu's guild mate is bad.
And I wouldn't even be saying anything about this, except that this entire section is completely flooded by this bickering.
wind fire and ice
byteme!
Get used to it. Igor and Daesu have been going at it for quite some time now. You can choose not to view any posts these 2 make if you wish.
Jeydra
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusk_
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Myotheraccount
Regardless, Daesu should post a video of full SoO run. Killing the first three trash groups in a dungeon shows nothing. His guildie could even be rezoning until it looks perfectly clean; full video eliminates that possibility. Hardest part of SoO is Fendi where your setup is truly put to a test but trash groups are fairly easy. I won’t be going to SoO just to kill the trash mobs, I want the end chest. Thats why I want to see how this build fares against him without any micro able Prots.
What do you think Daesu and his guildmate were trying to show? Read the post with the first video again. They were trying to show the viability of Mesmers in GENERAL PVE. The first three mobs in Shards of Orr are well above the level of general PvE. The movies they uploaded conclusively, at least in my opinion, show that Mesmers are viable in general PvE, up to the lack of a microable Prot Spirit. What they do not show is whether they are viable in the toughest areas of PvE, nor do they show that Mesmers are superior to alternative teambuilds.
*** I've gone through a variety of PI-based builds now and I don't think PI is usable at this point. The hero doesn't use PI enough. Of course expecting the hero to AoE KD monsters every 12s (or however much it is with Fast Casting) is a bit much, but unless it can do that I don't see the point of running PI. Builds tried: PI-based Domination build with Mistrust / Guilt / prots / Spiritual Pain / Unnatural Signet - barring the extremely heavy energy cost of this bar, the hero definitely didn't land PI as often as I wished it would; instead it spams the damage spells a lot. When it did land PI the effects are great, but until it does hit with PI it's just a weaker Necro. Healing Prayers + Prots + PI with 12 Fast Casting - the hero prefers to heal instead of use PI even when the party is under no pressure. PI + Res Chant with no other skills on the bar - this really shows the problem bare. The hero is absolutely worthless against anything without spells; it doesn't attempt to interrupt attack skills. Of course a real human playing the bar wouldn't land that many interrupts too, so ... I've still got to try the other Mesmer elites, I'm just not very hopeful.
Perfected Shadow
Why do we need a mesmerway? Just 1 mesmer with Panic can !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!down mob groups. I'm talking complete shutdown where melee mobs have trouble getting auto attacks off.
Jeydra
Tried Panic out. I must say I'm pretty impressed. I brought Panic Mesmer + Channeling Rit + Communing Rit + me (Air AP Ele) + Herta + Cynn + Lo Sha + Zho out into Sparkfly Swamp HM and had absolutely no problems clearing out all the mobs. In fact sometimes I even aggroed two mobs and didn't take deaths - and all I had for bar push was MBAS, Kaolai and Spirit Light.
Impressive as that is though there's one problem, and that is damage. The Mesmer hero still doesn't do much damage. What non-elite sources of damage are there in Domination Magic? Unnatural Signet (OK), Spiritual Pain (OK), Energy Burn (meh), Mistrust (good spell), Cry of Frustration (requires interrupt, 10e) and no more. Yet even taking all that together backed by high Fast Casting is still mediocre damage. I can see absolutely no reason to take Panic into PvE except possibly against multiple high-DPS HM Fire Eles, which is quite uncommon. For every other area with bodies I'd run the MM, and for every other area without bodies I'd sooner run VoR if I'm even running the Mesmer hero. Otherwise another major drawback of Panic Mesmers is energy. You can put Prot Spirit on the bar (I did it), but unlike a Necro the Mesmer generally does not have the energy to use Prot Spirit on demand. Not too bad a drawback, but a drawback nonetheless. The hero also loves to hex a single foe with Panic, total waste there. Panic Mesmers look rather like Keystone Signet Mesmers. Keystone Signet Mesmers having higher armour, easier energy and on-demand interrupts, but Panic Mesmers interrupt in a much larger AoE. Panic Mesmers also deal a bit more damage. At this point I think I'd rather Panic, but I haven't tested thoroughly. FoxBat
If you want to abuse PI, I've been playing around with a tease-esque resto healer. Waste Not they can then hit on the KD'd foes if not any other time, along with something like power drain for other interrupts and energy. With a bar more focused on heals than prot, they aren't going to bother healing when party bars are full and can get some interrupts in during that time. Long-recharging but useful skills like Life and PwK also help un-clutter their decision making process. These AI tendencies are probably part of why hero bars full of interrupts never became meta in PvP, while the hybrid interrupters/healers were.
Myotheraccount
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
What do you think Daesu and his guildmate were trying to show? Read the post with the first video again. They were trying to show the viability of Mesmers in GENERAL PVE. The first three mobs in Shards of Orr are well above the level of general PvE. The movies they uploaded conclusively, at least in my opinion, show that Mesmers are viable in general PvE, up to the lack of a microable Prot Spirit. What they do not show is whether they are viable in the toughest areas of PvE, nor do they show that Mesmers are superior to alternative teambuilds.
Nowai rly? I c I c. Still shows nothing. Mobs in SoO are considerably harder than in the rest of general PvE. General PvE is easy enough not to require a rupt hero. You can kill before mobs do any harm to you. Only place where I can see rupt Mesmers being somewhat viable are dungeons like SoO for example.
If anything, Daesu's video shows that mesmer are in fact viable in toughest PvE areas. There, you have a high chance of coming across stuff that is worth interrupting... Maybe. :3 kanuks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
I'm trying to say that I do not trust any build without a microable Prot Spirit or equivalent. It's not a tiny point either. Lots of dangerous bosses can deal over 200 damage a hit, while other monsters like Burning Spirits and Bladed Aatxes can wipe out a party in a blink of an eye. Prot Spirit allows you to survive these monsters. It's the difference between success and failure. I'm not going to use a build without Prot Spirit unless there is some strong evidence for its viability.
What do you think Daesu and his guildmate were trying to show? Read the post with the first video again. They were trying to show the viability of Mesmers in GENERAL PVE. The first three mobs in Shards of Orr are well above the level of general PvE. The movies they uploaded conclusively, at least in my opinion, show that Mesmers are viable in general PvE, up to the lack of a microable Prot Spirit. What they do not show is whether they are viable in the toughest areas of PvE, nor do they show that Mesmers are superior to alternative teambuilds. *** I've gone through a variety of PI-based builds now and I don't think PI is usable at this point. The hero doesn't use PI enough. Of course expecting the hero to AoE KD monsters every 12s (or however much it is with Fast Casting) is a bit much, but unless it can do that I don't see the point of running PI. Builds tried: PI-based Domination build with Mistrust / Guilt / prots / Spiritual Pain / Unnatural Signet - barring the extremely heavy energy cost of this bar, the hero definitely didn't land PI as often as I wished it would; instead it spams the damage spells a lot. When it did land PI the effects are great, but until it does hit with PI it's just a weaker Necro. Healing Prayers + Prots + PI with 12 Fast Casting - the hero prefers to heal instead of use PI even when the party is under no pressure. PI + Res Chant with no other skills on the bar - this really shows the problem bare. The hero is absolutely worthless against anything without spells; it doesn't attempt to interrupt attack skills. Of course a real human playing the bar wouldn't land that many interrupts too, so ... I've still got to try the other Mesmer elites, I'm just not very hopeful. I do all the dungeons without PS except for Forgewight where i really need it. But I'm a warrior though so it may be different than a caster. FoxBat
Just what are the uber Necro builds people are talking about here? Sure, minion bombers and mass death nova rocks. But beyond that? Discord? A character with two mediocre damage skills and the rest healing is OK, but another character that does sameish damage except AoE, while also mitigating is bad? Or are you using curses and watching them put mark of pain and SS on bad targets?
AoE options for heroes are limited. Next best thing people had is RoJ way which has its own issues. If you either can't or already have covered spirits, minions, and physical buffs, mesmers are the next choice for damage dealers, particularly shining against balled casters. They are close enough in power that whether I find them useful or not depends on my profession build and the needs of the area. If you want to argue over one build that can kludge through anything even if suboptimal in some spots, be my guest. But that has little to say about whether mesmer heroes have a useful niche or not.
The Josip
Practical feedback on why mesmers are not good heroes
I have vanquished few areas in Desolation with two mesmer heroes (three, counting me). While I was able to vanquish the areas, the yes/no test is not how I evaluate heroes. Considering that I also used to vanquish for money - meaning I was doing vanquish with less than full party - being able to do something with a mesmer isn't indication of how good they are *relative* to other heroes. If someone is merely interesting whether something can be done with mesmer heroes - the answer is usually "sure". If the question is "can mesmer replace Rt's and Necros" the answer is: "no". And here's why: 1. Theorycraft. There's a huge different between what skill "x" does on paper, and what it does in the game. 2. Antisynergy among the strongest mesmer skills. No synergy with anything or anyone else. Antisynergy with some henchmen. 3. AI not understanding skills, priority targets, off targets. 4. Reliability. Mesmer heroes are not reliable. They can be very efficient and very inefficient a dozen of times within the same zone. Sure they can interrupt that spell, but I've seen them many times not interrupt a critical 2-sec spell even when they were doing nothing. On the other hand, a hero will always cast and recast PwK. --- In details: * Mesmer heroes will refuse to even cast some skills, or cast them very, very rarely. Example: Chaos Storm. Another example: PI. PI has strong spammable effect, but if hero uses that once every 30 or 60 seconds or rarer, it's pointless. * Mesmer is not straightforward damage or heal class. Mesmer damage spells, as well as mitigation spells, require TABing, require precision in casting time, require prediction, require timing, etc. Heroes are not good at this. If you call a target, they'll throw whatever they have on that target, regardless of whether it will do anything or not. If you don't call targets, you're losing in efficiency. Example: Calculated Risk which is a great skill, if you cast it on off target. If you cast it on called target it won't do much, if anything, and it will have antisynergy with Clumsiness, Ineptitude etc. * Theorycraft vs practice. In theory, Mistrust does a huge amount of AoE damage, and recharges fast. In practice, mistrust won't be used on recharge, and often won't trigger, or will trigger but on a lone enemy so AoE will not be present, or it will trigger on near dead enemy so full damage won't happen. Which brings us to real average damage per zone a skill does as opposed to theoretical damage. * Antisynergy. Panic. Panic and entire series of best mesmer hexes - complete antisynergy. Mistrust, Clumsiness, Wandering Eye, Guilt, Interrupts. What does Panic do? It's a one-skill-mesmer. The rest of your bar needs to be full of non mesmer skills. In my opinion, lame. Every other profession has skills which synergize with skills of that profession and other professions. Mesmers have skills which don't synergize with other profession skills and skills which antisynergize with other mesmer skills. Horrible. This is how one of the biggest buff hopes ended. * Mesmer heroes refuse to spam skills. Their Fast Casting is completely useless. What good does it do if even when you have energy, you don't spam skills. What good does faster recharge do, when mesmer heroes refuse to recast these skills? * Their attributes are tied. They lack cross-profession versatility. You need some Fast Casting (otherwise why use mesmer anyway), you need high Domination or Illusion, and you need some Inspiration for energy. And even if you do want to use second profession, being mesmer doesn't help you at all after recent change to Fast Casting. It's worse than before. * There are some skills such as Power Drain etc that look tempting on heroes. Forget it. Try monitoring your heroes and you'll see they are not efficient at casting these skills, they will often miss, and often won't use them. It's good on paper. That's all. Compare that to minion bomber. Have you ever seen a necro hero not raise a minion after something died? I sure didn't. I've seen heroes get more energy with Drain Enchantment than with Power Drain (provided area has enchantments of course). * Mesmers lack passive non-self skills. Why are Ritualists and Necros so good? Because they both have great passive skills. Rt casts a spirit and that's it. The rest of the time he can spam those few fast-recharging heals or damage skills. Necro will have minions around him, without the need to keep clicking on some skill each time he wants minions to do damage or to body block. Now, here's a fun part. These passive skills act like Fast Casting. They offer a form of Fast Casting, except better one. To picture what I mean: imagine a mesmer casting Spiritual Pain every 2 seconds. Now imagine Ritualist putting down SoS. Ritualist will use.. what, 1 second of casting time per entire mob. A mesmer, with 16 FC, will need seconds of recasting the skill, over and over. * Too much of the same. A domination mesmer might want to take Surge, Spiritual Pain, Wastrel's Demise, Unnatural Signet, Energy Burn.. these skills really do same thing. Except you need many of them because of the recharge. Now compare that to Rt or N skillbar. Their bars are compressed. Each skill is unique and has a very specific and strong role. You can dislike Discord all you want, but it's a good example of compressed skillbar. You have 1 direct damage skill - Discord, with almost instant recharge and high armor ignoring damage. You don't need 4 domination skills to do the same thing. Sure it's conditional, but that's why you have a *team* build. Synergy. What's next - Aegis. Great anti-melee skill. What then, Protective Spirit perhaps, or maybe PwK/Life - party heal. What then - a minion / spirit. Passive skill. What then, AoE/poison with Death Nova and also enchantment distraction (so critical enchantment doesn't get removed). What then, Putrid Bile, hex with AoE effect. For flavor. What then, a direct heal or two. Antimelee with Enfeebling in the form of condition. What then, perhaps a Splinter for those who need that, or perhaps Frozen Soil or some other utility. Perhaps Fall Back. And what's your choice on mesmer skillbar? 4 anti melee hex skills, 4 anti-caster skills of which none actually shuts caster down or does significant damage, 2 energy-gain skills. Then a bit random. Zero party skills. * Delay. Mesmer skills have delay. Because they are mostly reactive skills. Damage these skills do, combined with the inability of heroes to cast properly on off targets, makes most of these skills near useless. * Rough competition. It's not that mesmer heroes are bad - I believe they are as good as heroes should be in hard mode. Enough to win, but with some challenge. But spirits are just ridiculous, and minions / soul reaping was always too strong in PvE. Mesmer hero would need to compete with some strong gimmick, but recent buff brought nothing but "there, mesmers are now fine" sense of satisfaction for ANet. In reality, AP spammer is still best build for a player, and mesmer heroes still offer nothing to the party that others don't do better. I'm not saying there are no ok builds (such as Ineptitude), but from elitist point of view - of what is the best of the best - it's really AP for player and Rt's and Necros for heroes.
Steps_Descending
Jossip has some nice points. Listen to him.
That being said, I'll still have a mesmer on my team.
Voodoo Rage
I took my Panic mesmer into the Warband of Brother's mission. Right at the beginning of the second level there is that bottleneck where you can get overwhelmed by a large mass of Charr. It was absolutely hilarious watching !!'s continuously popping up from the entire mob over and over again.
Malician
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Josip
Practical feedback on why mesmers are not good heroes
stuff ARGH YES What I want is (just for the fun and insanity) a pair of domination mesmers with three superior runes (domination, inspiration, fast casting) and 40/40 fast casting set.. with me as an ER dropping a Standard of Wisdom. Well, I tried it with the Standard and runes; on the plus side, I was watching VoR recharge in a few seconds... repeatedly. Given this, the Mesmers should've been incredible, spamming VoR, Backfire, Mistrust, Power Spike (and whatever other junk I slung on them) while using assorted inspiration for emanagement and casting 24/7. Unfortunately, they work wonderfully some of the time and simply flail like retards most of the rest. Your post explains why in great detail. I know it's probably feasible to make them work passably, but they're too clumsy for me.
byteme!
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Josip
snip
And the theory crafting ends here. Thanks for the wonderful post. Couldn't have said it better myself.
Jeydra
@Josip - written like a person who has used Mesmer heroes extensively and paid attention to what they can do / cannot do. I agree completely.
PS: I pour scorn on some people who haven't tried, yet think they are competent enough to critique as though they are always right.
wind fire and ice
GJ Josip,I agree with everything.
Myotheraccount
Quote:
Originally Posted by the josip
Don't take those spells then. * mesmer is not straightforward damage or heal class. Mesmer damage spells, as well as mitigation spells, require tabing, require precision in casting time, require prediction, require timing, etc. Heroes are not good at this. If you call a target, they'll throw whatever they have on that target, regardless of whether it will do anything or not. If you don't call targets, you're losing in efficiency. Example: Calculated risk which is a great skill, if you cast it on off target. If you cast it on called target it won't do much, if anything, and it will have antisynergy with clumsiness, ineptitude etc. Call when needed and don't put skills that have anti-synergy between them on your bar. It's not a problem that heroes act at random because mobs act at random too. If you don't interrupt one strong spell, it won't be game changing anyway because pve is easy. * theorycraft vs practice. In theory, mistrust does a huge amount of aoe damage, and recharges fast. in practice, mistrust won't be used on recharge, and often won't trigger, or will trigger but on a lone enemy so aoe will not be present, or it will trigger on near dead enemy so full damage won't happen. Which brings us to real average damage per zone a skill does as opposed to theoretical damage. You are still theorycrafting. In practice, you can't accurately predict anything to such an extent. These things may or may not happen. * antisynergy. Panic. Panic and entire series of best mesmer hexes - complete antisynergy. Mistrust, clumsiness, wandering eye, guilt, interrupts. What does panic do? It's a one-skill-mesmer. The rest of your bar needs to be full of non mesmer skills. In my opinion, lame. Every other profession has skills which synergize with skills of that profession and other professions. Mesmers have skills which don't synergize with other profession skills and skills which antisynergize with other mesmer skills. Horrible. This is how one of the biggest buff hopes ended. Panic has nearby range, chances are it will affect most of the targets you are fighting. Also, don't use it with skills that cause epic anti-synergy. Regardless, it's still a stupidly OPed skill which makes any anti-synergy irrelevant. * mesmer heroes refuse to spam skills. Their fast casting is completely useless. What good does it do if even when you have energy, you don't spam skills. What good does faster recharge do, when mesmer heroes refuse to recast these skills? They can still cast the skill earlier thus benefitting from FC. * their attributes are tied. They lack cross-profession versatility. You need some fast casting (otherwise why use mesmer anyway), you need high domination or illusion, and you need some inspiration for energy. And even if you do want to use second profession, being mesmer doesn't help you at all after recent change to fast casting. It's worse than before. How is it worse than before? Ne FC update killed Me/X gimmicks that used all secondary skills and gave an extra buff to mesmer spells. Much better imho. * there are some skills such as power drain etc that look tempting on heroes. Forget it. Try monitoring your heroes and you'll see they are not efficient at casting these skills, they will often miss, and often won't use them. It's good on paper. That's all. Compare that to minion bomber. Have you ever seen a necro hero not raise a minion after something died? I sure didn't. I've seen heroes get more energy with drain enchantment than with power drain (provided area has enchantments of course). There was nothing to interrupt probably. * mesmers lack passive non-self skills. Why are ritualists and necros so good? Because they both have great passive skills. Rt casts a spirit and that's it. The rest of the time he can spam those few fast-recharging heals or damage skills. Necro will have minions around him, without the need to keep clicking on some skill each time he wants minions to do damage or to body block. Now, here's a fun part. These passive skills act like fast casting. They offer a form of fast casting, except better one. To picture what i mean: Imagine a mesmer casting spiritual pain every 2 seconds. Now imagine ritualist putting down sos. Ritualist will use.. What, 1 second of casting time per entire mob. A mesmer, with 16 fc, will need seconds of recasting the skill, over and over. Rits are good because they got imba spirits, imba redbar, imba splinter weapon and imba ancestor's rage. Necros are good because they have broken soul reaping and hero AI. That stuff is simply more useful most of the time but it doesn't make Mesmer skills any less useful. Rest of the stuff you said makes no sense, some random theorycraft/nitpick probably. * too much of the same. A domination mesmer might want to take surge, spiritual pain, wastrel's demise, unnatural signet, energy burn.. These skills really do same thing. Except you need many of them because of the recharge. Now compare that to rt or n skillbar. Their bars are compressed. Each skill is unique and has a very specific and strong role. You can dislike discord all you want, but it's a good example of compressed skillbar. You have 1 direct damage skill - discord, with almost instant recharge and high armor ignoring damage. You don't need 4 domination skills to do the same thing. Sure it's conditional, but that's why you have a *team* build. Synergy. What's next - aegis. Great anti-melee skill. What then, protective spirit perhaps, or maybe pwk/life - party heal. What then - a minion / spirit. Passive skill. What then, aoe/poison with death nova and also enchantment distraction (so critical enchantment doesn't get removed). What then, putrid bile, hex with aoe effect. For flavor. What then, a direct heal or two. Antimelee with enfeebling in the form of condition. What then, perhaps a splinter for those who need that, or perhaps frozen soil or some other utility. Perhaps fall back. And what's your choice on mesmer skillbar? 4 anti melee hex skills, 4 anti-caster skills of which none actually shuts caster down or does significant damage, 2 energy-gain skills. Then a bit random. Zero party skills. Wat. Why are you comparing 3 Hero team to a Mesmer bar? * delay. Mesmer skills have delay. Because they are mostly reactive skills. Damage these skills do, combined with the inability of heroes to cast properly on off targets, makes most of these skills near useless. Heroes have superb reflex. You start killing with the most rupt-worthy target anyway so who cares if they ignore off-targets sometimes? * rough competition. It's not that mesmer heroes are bad - i believe they are as good as heroes should be in hard mode. Enough to win, but with some challenge. But spirits are just ridiculous, and minions / soul reaping was always too strong in pve. Mesmer hero would need to compete with some strong gimmick, but recent buff brought nothing but "there, mesmers are now fine" sense of satisfaction for anet. In reality, ap spammer is still best build for a player, and mesmer heroes still offer nothing to the party that others don't do better. I'm not saying there are no ok builds (such as ineptitude), but from elitist point of view - of what is the best of the best - it's really ap for player and rt's and necros for heroes. Agreed. You could have just written that and skipped the rest. Reply in bold.
The Josip
The contents of your mind hurt my head. Must.. distance..
Myotheraccount
byteme!
Xenomortis
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myotheraccount
Butthurt rebuttals only prove that you know I'm right but don't want to admit it. It's OK, feel free to fall in denial.
You can't always take someone sighing in despair and outright refusing to engage in discourse with you as victory. Sometimes it's within reason.
FoxBat
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Josip
Practical feedback on why mesmers are not good heroes
I have vanquished few areas in Desolation with two mesmer heroes (three, counting me). Some of us have been playing with them just a TAD more than "a few vanquishes.": all the HM WiK content, herowaying UW, vanqing EotN, proph, running HM factions missions, split speed-vanqing factions areas... Spirits are near the best DPS machine, but sometimes are abandoned due to their difficulty keeping pace in fast battles. They can also have trouble with mass AoE without slow and careful flagging, or mowing down masses of enemies. Minion bombers are about irreplaceable assuming you're in an area with corpses. If I therefore have a condition that is making one or the other of these options not work, then a mesmer is a likely place to turn; that would also include having a buddy or second account along instead of henchies. The main popular competition against mesmers in this scenario is Discord, and THAT is the build I am arguing against. In theory soul reaping provides infinite energy. In practice there's little useful you can do with it besides heal/prot and minions. It's no coincidence that infinite ER engine is likewise primarily used for heal/prots, most high damage skills are tied down by recharges or conditional activation more than anything. Now heal/prot is far from useless, unless you're one of those people posting in the thread "why do anything but DPS in PvE"... which I thought needed to be countered. But if you aren't in the "DPS only" school of thought then we can move on. Panic is awkward but it's not completely hopeless. Skills like shatter delusions, mistrust, even overload they will proc often enough to add DPS. Another common approach is to split into another attribute or class, such as resto or curses. So then you do get all the interrupts you want in 1 skill and have the rest of your bar to do something different. Against large mobs the reduction is easily on par with imbagon, except it also protects your spirits and minions and disrupts healers. Against small mobs you usually don't need the reduction anyway. Unilke a bar full of hero interrupts, it's very reliable in that respect. For your illusion mesmer, on a mass of spellcasters Panic forces them to cycle through their spell recharges quickly, so that they'll then start wanding into clums/wandering eye/etc. And even though they will have attacks interrupted, clums/wandering eye only needs one attack to trigger; this generally still happens in HM with their increased attack speed. You can even throw in shared burden on if you like, which increases the likelihood of hitting each other and lowers wanding speed, they STILL trigger the illusion hexes. PI has a low priority in the mesmer AI for whatever reason. They will cast it if their bar is not jammed with other things they have to do. I've found they hit it pretty reliably when something reactive and high-recharge like resto rit duties for the rest of their bar. It does not go so well on the illusion/dom spam bars. More experimentation might find some other options here. There are numerous inefficiencies in mesmer builds, although this depends in part on how its constructed. To work around some bad prioritizations you sometimes have to drop spammier skills and let them cycle through recharges evenly on the whole bar. Even so firing off their AoE is *still* better than single-target discording when facing large group. Even a keystone signet mesmer can easily match discord DPS if just two foes are standing together, and far more if you go up from there. Yes, PWK is more reliable. It also doesn't kill anything. The only good thing I can say about discord is it's very good at spiking out a half-dead AP target, which is significant considering the power of the AP build. The majority of the damage here though is really coming from the player's EVAS and what not recharging. Discord is mere support for the AP player, not the other way around. That's a big part of why they are so recommended against for physicals. Now this is far from making discord bad in the final analysis, but this makes the build's power *extremely narrow*. If you are playing a caster that isn't AP, there is not that compelling a case to stick with discord. The comparison does depend on the area you are working with. Mesmer+rit combos let me solo UW quests. Necro+rit combos do not. I don't argue that on average minions+spirits are completely absurd and preferable; or that party-wide prot and uber ER heals are useless (although I find soul-twisted shelter + panic is generally better) But after those are either taken care of or rendered a bad idea for a given area, I'd generally pick mesmers for damage, particularly AoE damage over anything else. Not because mesmers are that amazing, but because other hero options are that bad.
The Josip
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat
Spirits are near the best DPS machine, but sometimes are abandoned due to their difficulty keeping pace in fast battles. They can also have trouble with mass AoE without slow and careful flagging, or mowing down masses of enemies. Minion bombers are about irreplaceable assuming you're in an area with corpses. If I therefore have a condition that is making one or the other of these options not work, then a mesmer is a likely place to turn
I used the same logic actually. But flaws of MM and spirit spammer don't make mesmers better.
I'm also surprised that no mesmer supporter actually types down a full build of himself + 3 heroes + what henchmen he takes. That says enough. FoxBat
UW
Player: Panic, mistrust, wastrel's worry, drain delusions, mantra of flame, pve skills Hero 1: inept, clumsiness, wandering eye, sig of clum, unnatural sig, sig lost souls, leech sig, symbolic celer. Hero 2: soul twisting, boon of creation, pain, shelter, dissonance, disenchantment, Hero 3: SoS, bloodsong, painful bond, spirit siphon, life, spirit light, MB&S, optional This lets me fight any number of dryders in UW. The Hero 1 could probably be optimized better to something with more AoE but this works at least. You can also make a panic hero + basically anything else, panic is the key skill here. Any quest can be soloed as long as a healer keeps up the other side in the split areas. I tried this twice earlier with 6-hero discord + spiritway and player imbagon, and it failed utterly on wastes, because even while taking minimal damage and spread apart, heroes still got confused from all the running around in fire AoEs and they had no way to deal enough AoE themselves, while the spirits got pummeled quickly. There is a reason no UW heroway build existed on PvX until someone posted a trial one featuring mesmer bars. Split-vanq of morning veil falls in 20 minutes w/out cons (2 players running same build): Player: SoS, bloodsong, vamprism, painful bond, summon spirits Hero 1: Soul Twister Hero 2: Minion Bomber Hero 3: Psychic Instability, waste not, power drain, leech sig, MB&S, spirit light, PwK, life. PI is primarily here to take care of earth wardens, the main danger to minions/spirits, as well as the healing rits. Spirit DPS can have trouble keeping up with the healers otherwise. More prots etc. do not help because you need to keep spirits/minions alive moreso than yourself. What multiple-SoH-maintaining hero clears out that huge mob in the door of shaemoor in "a little help from above" the fastest? Keystone signet + anything, not an ER prot or RoJer.
The Josip
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat
Hero 3: Psychic Instability, waste not, power drain, leech sig, MB&S, spirit light, PwK, life.
Sorry can't comment on UW because I'm not enough familiar about it to say what works best.
As for VQ build, I just don't like it nor find it optimized. That's all. Maybe your hero is using PI better, but mine (and not just mine) was absolutely horrible with it. I should also note that the situation I usually consider is 1 player + H/H, and not two players. With 6 heroes, would there be a place for mesmer hero? I don't know, and personally don't care becaus I'm guildless at the moment and searching for another player has been next to impossible in this game for a while. Maybe when I find a guild that is actually not doing solo farming or H/Hing the entire time, I'll play with 6 hero setups. Either way, if that hero setup works for you, great. It didn't work for me. Maybe if I manage to find a good Me/Mo build to buff my melee mesmer More on that in the other thread.
Jeydra
After my last run through Ooze Pit I think I can safely conclude that in areas where I can't run the MM (lack of bodies), I'll use by default a Panic Mesmer. Panic is powerful; it's a pity however that the other spells available to a Dom Mes aren't that good.
If I'm playing with 2 players I pretty much will use a Mesmer hero for sure. MM, 2 Rits, Smiter, Dom Mes (VoR) and a pure healer - used that for DoA NM and it worked well. I do wonder though if the Dom Mes does more damage than a Necro. Given that the Necro is played by a hero and there's already a MM in the team, what's the best Necro damage build?
Myotheraccount
Kay, so I was bored today and decided to play with double Mesmer team. I wanted to go to an area that is heavy with AoE; Kathy was a good candidate but I cba'd running there so I went to Sepulchre that also has allot of AoE and over aggro can be lethal.
I took two random Mesmers, one Panic and another PI with ER Prot (also random) and Physway Sin bar I wasn't bothered to change. Hench were random as well. Now the Dungeon: I had zero recollection of how I did it, it was long time ago back in the Ursan days, I just remembered that overaggro lead to my party getting owned by Area range AoE. So to test how good Messes are I decided to blindly c+space with no micro, flag or aggro management. The results were simply astonishing, I could easily aggro the whole room of Shattered Elementals without taking any casualties. There first level took me 30 min, very long but I had no idea where I was going or why and just cleared everything until gate to the portal has opened. ;o Second level was amazing, I just c+space'd and only had a few guys dead. Boss fight had no casualties despite absolutely no micro-management or flagging. Conclusion: You must be a completely utterly clueless shitter to say that Mesmer heroes are weak. Notes: Heroes SUCK with PI. I fought Regent of Ice (or w/e it's called) and Norgu never used it. >: P.S: I know Sepulchre is one of the easiest Dungeons in game but the sheer amount of AoE can easily get you into trouble unless you play smart. With Mesmers, I could brainlessly c+space it and still get wipe-less run and a decent time @ boss room. Next, ima go Kathy when I'm not lazy. Klance
Well considering you already have yourself as a SY! spammer, a ER prot hero, 2 hench monks and a hench mesmer, i really wonder how much mitigation an extra two mesmers give?
Myotheraccount
Myotheraccount
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
And of course saying that party bars never dropped below 90% is an outright lie, because 10% of a person's health is about 60 at most and Feast of Corruption (which the Dryders have) does well over 60 damage. BUT I'M SO PRO I MICRO PROT SPIRIT ON ANYONE THE DRYDERS CAST IT ON **** YEA. The only thing that screenshot proves is how overpowered physical damage is, because despite having low damage on everyone else it still manages to return a moderately fast time. |
Bars didn't drop below 90% because Dryders and Shattered Elementals couldn't get any of their skills through because of constant rupts from the Mesmers. Without Mesmers my Physical build wouldn't do much because I would be slowed and nuked with AoE 24/7.
Quote:
Bars almost never tropped below 90% until the boss fight.
Oh and Jeydra learn to effin read before you smash your dick against the keyboard.