mesmerway?
Daesu
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Originally Posted by Myotheraccount
SoLS + Symbolic Celerity. Synergies has flavur. Also, heals are for the weak. Everything depends on how well you pull and flag your Heroes, no ammount of healing can change this. A lesson for you, Daesu.
If heals are for the weak then show me a video of you not using any heals at all in HM Shards. 
Jeydra
Preliminary testing indicates ...
1) Psychic Instability + something from second profession may have potential if you have enough energy management somehow (e.g. rest of the bar is Signets).
2) Heroes don't like to use Psychic Instability for some reason. I don't get it. Maybe next time I'll try a build with only one interrupt to force the AI to use PI instead of anything else.
3) Heroes don't maintain Symbolic Celerity and Mantra of Signets, making Signet-based builds that much weaker without intensive micro.
A workable Mesmer build might exist, but it'll really have to come after Rits and MBs, as far as the setup I used is concerned.
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Originally Posted by Daesu
1) Psychic Instability + something from second profession may have potential if you have enough energy management somehow (e.g. rest of the bar is Signets).
2) Heroes don't like to use Psychic Instability for some reason. I don't get it. Maybe next time I'll try a build with only one interrupt to force the AI to use PI instead of anything else.
3) Heroes don't maintain Symbolic Celerity and Mantra of Signets, making Signet-based builds that much weaker without intensive micro.
A workable Mesmer build might exist, but it'll really have to come after Rits and MBs, as far as the setup I used is concerned.
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Just thought that I would share this video that my guildie made with 2 mesmer heroes, 1 with PI/Illusion and the other with Stolen Speed/Dom in HM Riven Earth.
Like I said, they are not the most powerful build but they are feasible in general HM.
http://www.xfire.com/video/2be073/
EDIT: turns out he only needed 1 healer. Life Bringing and I watched this video and to be honest we weren't impressed. The heroes used SoLS with Symbolic Celerity down once (just watch the first use), and the setup included minion walls, Aegis, Eruption and Ward Against Melee vs. Raptors. That's nothing impressive. To prove it, I went out there with largely the same setup (same henchmen, same player Earth Ele and a MB) and killed those Raptors as well with no trouble. Kill speed was a bit slower, but not by a lot.
With this test I'm honestly beginning to think that PvE is easy enough now that you can get by with 0.5 healers.
@Faye - how good did you find Panic? By the way it's hard to imagine Mesmers out-damaging Rits because Rits deal over a hundred armour-ignoring damage per second. Moving spirits isn't too hard since mobs are usually quite far apart, and if it comes to it having lots of spirits means that some of them will cool down quickly. I generally don't have to micro spirits except just before aggro to a tough mob. PuGGing with SoS Rits though is difficult. For some reason ALL of them insist on bringing some Communing spirits, even when I have a Communing hero.
Like I said, they are not the most powerful build but they are feasible in general HM.
http://www.xfire.com/video/2be073/
EDIT: turns out he only needed 1 healer. Life Bringing and I watched this video and to be honest we weren't impressed. The heroes used SoLS with Symbolic Celerity down once (just watch the first use), and the setup included minion walls, Aegis, Eruption and Ward Against Melee vs. Raptors. That's nothing impressive. To prove it, I went out there with largely the same setup (same henchmen, same player Earth Ele and a MB) and killed those Raptors as well with no trouble. Kill speed was a bit slower, but not by a lot.
With this test I'm honestly beginning to think that PvE is easy enough now that you can get by with 0.5 healers.
@Faye - how good did you find Panic? By the way it's hard to imagine Mesmers out-damaging Rits because Rits deal over a hundred armour-ignoring damage per second. Moving spirits isn't too hard since mobs are usually quite far apart, and if it comes to it having lots of spirits means that some of them will cool down quickly. I generally don't have to micro spirits except just before aggro to a tough mob. PuGGing with SoS Rits though is difficult. For some reason ALL of them insist on bringing some Communing spirits, even when I have a Communing hero.
Myotheraccount
Daesu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
We would have a new video for you later, with HM Shards using 2 rits and 1 PI mesmer to replace my MM.
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra
With this test I'm honestly beginning to think that PvE is easy enough now that you can get by with 0.5 healers.
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I dont know what you are talking about.
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Tbh MBaS, SL, PwK are all the main Resto skills so it's a redbar. Ele is dedicated fully to Prot/Heal. Too much, they stand idle most of the time; Rit only casts first three spells and ER only throws PS around but MB can do it too. When you do something retarded, they are not going to save you.
ER doesn't stand idle most of the time. I dont know where you are theory crafting from, but nice try.Quote:
Daesu so autism. ER Prot, Rt Resto and you suggest to take one/two healers on top of that - 3/4 healers. So you're the one who can't count. I was talking about your build and all the claims that you have made about PvE being hard. Now you show your guildie going with a single healer - selfpwnd. :>|
Originally Posted by Myotheraccount
So you still think that dedicating 2/3 of your heroes to healing then taking 2 healer henchies on top of that like you do is the way to go. Ok, nice lulz.
@Myotheraccount: Either you are watching a totally different video from what I posted, or you failed counting 101.
Video clearly shows a 8 man with only Mhenlo as the healer.
Myotheraccount
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Originally Posted by Daesu
@Myotheraccount: Either you are watching a totally different video from what I posted, or you failed counting 101.
Video clearly shows a 8 man with only Mhenlo as the healer. More like you were blinded by rage after reading my post and didn't see what build I was talking about. That video goes to show that even with a weakish hero setup you still don't need to take retarded ammount of heal and defense despite of you claiming otherwise. You are too ignorant to listen to anybody so maybe your guildie will make you finally get it. :>
Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by Myotheraccount
More like you were blinded by rage after reading my post and didn't see what build I was talking about. That video goes to show that even with a weakish hero setup you still don't need to take retarded ammount of heal and defense despite of you claiming otherwise. You are too ignorant to listen to anybody so maybe your guildie will make you finally get it. :>
I see one dedicated defensive hero in that build, not two.
The Rit is hardly a dedicated healer (just support heals more like) and the Ele only has one heal. 2/3 heroes are definitely not dedicated healers.
Daesu
It is official, Igor (aka Myotheraccount) can't count.
Here is the 2 rits, 1 mesmer video in HM Shards. He has to take both Mhenlo and Lina along. http://www.xfire.com/video/2c3002/ He gave up flagging heroes for the last mob.
Essence Snow
Do ya'll really flag h/h like that for every mob? Seems like waste of time imo.
Myotheraccount
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Originally Posted by Daesu
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Originally Posted by Xenomortis
I see one dedicated defensive hero in that build, not two.
The Rit is hardly a dedicated healer (just support heals more like) and the Ele only has one heal. 2/3 heroes are definitely not dedicated healers. Tbh MBaS, SL, PwK are all the main Resto skills so it's a redbar. Ele is dedicated fully to Prot/Heal. Too much, they stand idle most of the time; Rit only casts first three spells and ER only throws PS around but MB can do it too. When you do something retarded, they are not going to save you.
Daesu
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Originally Posted by Myotheraccount
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Yes but the rest of the bar are comprised of non restoration skills. 3/8 skills are Healing but then 3/8 are also geared to offense (SoS, Splinter Weapon, Ancestor's Rage).|
Originally Posted by Essence Snow
Do ya'll really flag h/h like that for every mob? Seems like waste of time imo.
No, just for those 3 mobs in HM Shards to make the video.
General HM is too easy with those builds that you dont need to flag for every mob, there is a video where he tried it without flagging but the result doesnt look as nice at the last mob. HM Shards is hard without smites.@byteme!: It may feel like years to you, but it has only been the last month considering Igor's new account join date. Don't remember arguing with his old banned account, this started when I named my paragon heroes build Daesuway and he got upset.
Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by Myotheraccount
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It's not a healer hero. It's a hero with some redbar support.
Taking two monks with the ER and that hero may be overkill, but it's nothing to get worked up about.
An ER also throws around Spirit Bond - don't dismiss that out of hand. The ER will also throw out more Prot Spirits than the MB can manage.
Giving the prots to the MB would also mean losing Dark Fury and/or Mark of Pain (the latter having immense offensive power when properly used).
The only thing I disagree with is the ER build itself. Seriously, I don't understand why people put Shield Guardian on the hero ER bar - the skill itself is actually rather poor. Human ERs carry it so they always have something to spam (1 sec recharge) to get energy back (between it and SB) but heroes don't do that. Better skills are Aegis or even Shield of Absorption.
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Do ya'll really flag h/h like that for every mob? Seems like waste of time imo.
For SoO HM? I would certainly start the dungeon flagging my heroes apart for each mob - it doesn't take that long to do (guy in the video takes his time) and it really helps prevent your team from wiping.If after a bit I didn't think I needed to and felt confident in my heroes' ability to stop the 6 enemy Eles casters nuking me then I'll try not bothering.
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Here is the 2 rits, 1 mesmer video in HM Shards. He has to take both Mhenlo and Lina along.
The big thing Lina provides that your heroes lack is Prot Spirit. After that it's SoA and everything else is relatively minor.
She'll also burn away most of her energy with PS and Zealous Benediction.
As Jeydra said:
The only thing I disagree with is the ER build itself. Seriously, I don't understand why people put Shield Guardian on the hero ER bar - the skill itself is actually rather poor. Human ERs carry it so they always have something to spam (1 sec recharge) to get energy back (between it and SB) but heroes don't do that. Better skills are Aegis or even Shield of Absorption.
She'll also burn away most of her energy with PS and Zealous Benediction.
As Jeydra said:
The only thing I disagree with is the ER build itself. Seriously, I don't understand why people put Shield Guardian on the hero ER bar - the skill itself is actually rather poor. Human ERs carry it so they always have something to spam (1 sec recharge) to get energy back (between it and SB) but heroes don't do that. Better skills are Aegis or even Shield of Absorption.
Agree that Shield of Absorption is a good idea for melee, but I felt it would be a little overkill with both PS and SB already present, for general HM.
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The guy in the movie played pretty badly actually (by the standards I myself play at). His flagging was slow, he didn't have the flagging commands mapped to keys, he didn't pre-cast spirits (which is the whole point of pulling), he risked AP to hex removal a lot by using AP -> YMLAD! -> EBVAS -> FH, and his AoE missed far more often than it hit ... but HM Shards is definitely more impressive than killing Raptors.
I have to agree that his flagging skill is not very impressive and he was too lazy to produce this video before I bugged him. He hates flagging individual heroes but he needed to do that just to run that build in HM Shards to take the video. Anyway the purpose of the video is to try out 2 Rits+1 PI mesmer in HM shards, not to show off his never-used-before-and-absolutely-hates-flagging-of-individual-heroes skill.
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ER doesn't stand idle most of the time. I dont know where you are theory crafting from, but nice try.
He hates flagging individual heroes but he needed to do that just to run that build in HM Shards to take the video. Anyway the purpose of the video is to try out 2 Rits+1 PI mesmer in HM shards, not to show off his never-used-before-and-absolutely-hates-flagging-of-individual-heroes skill.Quote:
Daesu is in denial.|
EDIT#2: It turns out that I was able to kill the Skeleton mobs with 7 players. I even used a more offensive teambuild, running Air myself and taking Cynn / Herta / Lina / Mhenlo. I used the same techniques as the player in the movie (no pre-cast spirits). In my many runs testing different teambuilds, I did take a couple of deaths and the lack of a micro'able Prot Spirit reared its ugly head, but nothing too damaging. However, I didn't play far enough to face the Chained Brigands, against whom not having Prot Spirit is going to be really painful. Again the kill speed was a bit slower than the one in the video, but not by a lot - in fact the difference was near zero - and again I'm inclined to conclude that the Mesmer hero really isn't achieving much. If PI / Clumsiness / Wandering Eye are making the mob deal a lot less damage, well you don't need the mob to deal a lot less damage because the Rits can already mop it up. Why bother? I am not sure what you mean. Did you go at least as far in as the video shows with 7 heroes? I think our point is to show it with as little micro as possible, as you noticed that he never even pre-cast spirits but he needed the flagging to work in a place like HM Shards. From our testing, I still think that mesmer heroes have a value in the team, not so much in terms of damage, but damage prevention. And the point of not micro-ing the skills is also to show that a "lazy" build of HM Shards is possible at least with the first few mobs (we are too bored to play any HM dungeon to the end ). By the way the mesmer hero wasn't rune with any insignia and has no vigor rune since this is only an experiment and not his usual build.This is the absolutely fun no micro version of the same build: http://www.xfire.com/video/2c3bd3/ Jeydra
I went in with 2 heroes, 4 henchmen and myself, total 7 characters. I did it with the same amount of micro as in the video, i.e. I didn't pre-cast spirits + a few more things I won't mention. I did, however, call targets a lot.
So there's no micro advantage to using the Mesmer hero, no damage prevention advantage and basically nothing of value I can see, and you lose Prot Spirit / Aegis. What's the point?
Myotheraccount
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Originally Posted by Daesu
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Quote: @byteme!: It may feel like years to you, but it has only been the last month considering Igor's new account join date. Don't remember arguing with his old banned account, this started when I named my paragon heroes build Daesuway and he got upset. We used to argue allot. Everything you say now that isn't wrong, I been telling you back then but you argued against it. Oh and your Para build is a spinoff of Gigashadow's build but much worse. When I pointed it out to the OP in that thread you got butthurt and started stalking me all over the boards till this very day. Lol
Quote: Yes but the rest of the bar are comprised of non restoration skills. 3/8 skills are Healing but then 3/8 are also geared to offense (SoS, Splinter Weapon, Ancestor's Rage).
It's not a healer hero. It's a hero with some redbar support.
Taking two monks with the ER and that hero may be overkill, but it's nothing to get worked up about. Well, half of that bar consists of redbar with some utility so it's a typical resto healer. Regardless, resto redbar is extremely strong already and he takes two of them for more spam, an ER on top of that with a Minions, Spirits, weakness and a bunch of healing hench is an overkill. Doesn't make the setup more failsafe either because if you do something retarded you are going to wipe anyway. If not, then PvE is easy enough to stroll through with half a healer.
Quote: An ER also throws around Spirit Bond - don't dismiss that out of hand. The ER will also throw out more Prot Spirits than the MB can manage.
Giving the prots to the MB would also mean losing Dark Fury and/or Mark of Pain (the latter having immense offensive power when properly used). Mine never used SB. He just stood there and protted at the same rate as MB does or stood idle. =/ Most of Prot Spirits he throws out are useless anyway because you only need PS to pull and soak. Oh and losing prots means losing ER which in turn means you can take another hero with DF. Not to mention whatever DF hero you take will cast DF more than his MB does. :>
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refers) for you to do 2 secs of pre-proting before the fight?
You have to first prove that the build is indeed faster with micro. Otherwise who would go with a slower build that requires micro over a faster build that doesn't require micro?