Emailing Support - Why are we doing it? - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Lord Sojar

The Fallen One

Join Date: Dec 2005

Oblivion

Irrelevant

Mo/Me

06 Jun 2010 at 19:54 - 321

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

What Anet needs to do is make a specific, clear and easy to access list of which applications under which circumstances and ways they can be used are illegal and which are not. This list needs to be updated frequently, and players need to be notified in advance before the list gets updated with new applications, so they have the time and oppurtunity to stay legal under the latest regulations. If they won't, banning accounts for breaking the various vague sections of the EULA will always remain seemingly arbitraty.

They don't need to give a blueprint for cheating. Period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

Believing and knowing are very different things. Your assertions are for the most part completely reliant upon trusting you and believing whatever you say.

Right, because quoting Gaile/ANET is clearly trusting what I say and not what they say, and have said forever, right? LOL

Let me direct you here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=308

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

Now, Gaile argues automated responses are justified as a result of 3700 accounts being banned. However, why invoke a mass-ban if you don't have enough resources at Support to give everyone a proper response?

No company that does mass bans gives individual responses... LOL. The vast (emphasis on vast) majority of these bans were legit, and the people know they are guilty.

How should ANET give them a response? "We know you botted. Sorry."? You are asking them to give 100% confirmed botters a personalized response... that's stupid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

Getting banned for 'Botting' may be more obvious to some than it has been to others. ArenaNET has had a history of being vague in EULA-related cases like these, such as the character naming debacle. While some applications are easy to identify as bots and therefore illegal under the EULA, without completely clear guidelines there is, and always will be a very big gray area. This, in turn, results in people finding themselves in this grey area and submitting tickets and appeals for clarification. The time Support spends on these tickets could have been completely avoided if ArenaNET had made proper, clear and easy to access rules and restrictions on what is allowed and what is not.

Don't use 3rd party applications. Gray area = gone. Well that was easy!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terms of Service

You may not use any third-party program (such as a "bot") in order to automate gameplay functions, including playing, chatting, interacting, or gathering gold or items within Guild Wars. You may not assist, relay, or store gold or items for other players who are using these processes.

I'm sorry, I don't see the clarity issues with that. You signed the EULA, abide by it.

Meridon

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2008

Funny Business Inc [FBI]

06 Jun 2010 at 19:58 - 322

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Sojar

They don't need to give a blueprint for cheating. Period.

If by 'blueprint', you mean that people will only be encouraged to run one of these applications since they're on a list they released, then I don't see the problem, since I thought their 20+ algorithm of catching botters was so good.

If you mean they don't need to be clear about it, then you're wrong, for the reasons I stated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Sojar

No company that does mass bans gives individual responses... LOL. The vast (emphasis on vast) majority of these bans were legit, and the people know they are guilty.

How should ANET give them a response? "We know you botted. Sorry."? You are asking them to give 100% confirmed botters a personalized response... that's stupid.

No company that can't give individual responses should do mass bans. Anet invoked the shitstorm on themselves by being vague and banning 3700+ players at the same time. People deserve to be helped in a decent manner at Customer Support, no matter what. They are the customers after all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Sojar

Don't use 3rd party applications. Gray area = gone. Well that was easy!

Too bad the EULA doesn't say that, regardless of what you quoted. Let's review an excerpt:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild Wars EULA section 7

You agree not to use any hardware or software, including but not limited to third party tools, or any other method of support which may in any way influence or advantage your use of the Service which is not authorized by NC Interactive, including but not limited to the use of 'bots' and/or any other method by which the Service may be played automatically without human input.

As you can see, it says 'Don't use 3rd party apps that may influence/give you an advantage in GW which we haven't authorised', not 'Don't use 3rd party apps at all. Period.' What you are suggesting is one way to solve the grey area, but the point is that this is not the case right now, and something should happen to change that.

Regarding the section you quoted from the ToS, that section is not as vague (luckily) as the above section I mentioned. However, like I mentioned before, the above section gives room for the arbitrary banning of players for using any kind of software or hardware if there hasn't been an official statement about it. Heck, If some GM happens to have a bad day, he can practically ban you for having Windows Explorer on your PC just because it can locate GW.exe! I don't see what's not better about striving for more clear rules and guidelines.

Also, please don't insinuate I am a botter by telling me to abide by the EULA. I am doing so, and I am not a botter.

Lord Sojar

The Fallen One

Join Date: Dec 2005

Oblivion

Irrelevant

Mo/Me

06 Jun 2010 at 20:02 - 323

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

If by 'blueprint', you mean that people will only be encouraged to run one of these applications since they're on a list they released, then I don't see the problem, since I thought their 20+ algorithm of catching botters was so good.

If you mean they don't need to be clear about it, then you're wrong, for the reasons I stated.

They already provided a list of mods that won't get you banned. Anything else is at your own risk.

And, even the mods they "allow" are at your own risk. In their original, unaltered form, they are fine. Any changes from that might make them a violation.

And no, people will be encouraged to go "Oh, they allow this, so I can use that but manipulate it so it does this, and then use their list as a legit excuse after they ban me for automating things"

That's stupid.

Meridon

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2008

Funny Business Inc [FBI]

06 Jun 2010 at 20:16 - 324

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Sojar

They already provided a list of mods that won't get you banned. Anything else is at your own risk.

And, even the mods they "allow" are at your own risk. In their original, unaltered form, they are fine. Any changes from that might make them a violation.

And no, people will be encouraged to go "Oh, they allow this, so I can use that but manipulate it so it does this, and then use their list as a legit excuse after they ban me for automating things"

That's stupid.

My guessing was purely because your comments could be interpreted in different ways. What they have provided so far in terms of a blacklist and a whitelist is not enough. The 'Anything else is at your own risk' promotes arbitrary banning and results in proper people potentially being banned for something the EULA wasn't clear about. If ArenaNET extends their blacklist to more than just .dll injections, without people knowing or being told, they run into a minefield of where some people might be using an application to script bot-like behaviours, and others using the same application to make an innocent hotkey macro equal to the G15 keyboard macros. In the case of that event taking place, innocent victims will fall. We need to prevent that by having clear and proper guidelines to start out with, and by having information about updates and actions being supplied to the community in a proactive way.

Ka Tet

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2006

Pita Bread And Scud Missiles Ai[iiii]

06 Jun 2010 at 20:24 - 325

Right, because quoting Gaile/ANET is clearly trusting what I say and not what they say, and have said forever, right? LOL
Let me direct you here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=308
That's a small amount of the large amount of things you've said, such as your statements regarding your intimate knowledge of Anet's detection process[es].
For example,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Sojar

The program doesn't have a margin of error. It's 100% accurate.

Speculation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

No company that can't give individual responses should do mass bans. Anet invoked the shitstorm on themselves by being vague and banning 3700+ players at the same time. People deserve to be helped in a decent manner at Customer Support, no matter what. They are the customers after all.

Ah yes, the oft-ignored heart of the matter.

Lord Sojar

The Fallen One

Join Date: Dec 2005

Oblivion

Irrelevant

Mo/Me

06 Jun 2010 at 20:37 - 326

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

If ArenaNET extends their blacklist to more than just .dll injections, without people knowing or being told, they run into a minefield of where some people might be using an application to script bot-like behaviours, and others using the same application to make an innocent hotkey macro equal to the G15 keyboard macros. In the case of that event taking place, innocent victims will fall. We need to prevent that by having clear and proper guidelines to start out with, and by having information about updates and actions being supplied to the community in a proactive way.
Meridon is invisible Add Infraction for Meridon Report Post Reply With Quote

No, we don't. It's clear. If you use the mods that they have "approved" in their original form, you are fine. Anything else = risk of a ban. Beyond that, it needs to be common sense. If you lack the mental facilities to have enough common sense to make a judgment as easy as they are making this, god help you.

Specifically this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

they run into a minefield of where some people might be using an application to script bot-like behaviours, and others using the same application to make an innocent hotkey macro equal to the G15 keyboard macros.

They shouldn't... any app that has that capability isn't approved. None of the approved mods/apps have the capability to do such things. If you are using an app that even has the capability of doing this, consider yourself a future victim of Dhuum.

You just want them to spell it out for you, and they don't need to. They aren't going to be that specific because that creates a list for people to use as excuses, and it would need to be updated all the time. It also suggests they support certain applications; they support no 3rd party apps or mods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meridon

No company that can't give individual responses should do mass bans. Anet invoked the shitstorm on themselves by being vague and banning 3700+ players at the same time. People deserve to be helped in a decent manner at Customer Support, no matter what. They are the customers after all.

Bullshit. If you break the rules that you sign, you are the fool. They can do as many mass bannings as they want to, because you signed the EULA. It isn't their fault that people don't read!

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

Speculation.

It's far from speculation. It detects a non normal parameter and reports it. Exactly how can it have a margin of error? Do you think computers randomly decide to get things wrong? No, they don't think, they work purely in the realm of mathematics.

No margin of error, computers are a bit more advanced than you take them for.

Ka Tet

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2006

Pita Bread And Scud Missiles Ai[iiii]

06 Jun 2010 at 20:48 - 327

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Sojar

It's far from speculation. It detects a non normal parameter and reports it. Exactly how can it have a margin of error? Do you think computers randomly decide to get things wrong? No, they don't think, they work purely in the realm of mathematics.

No margin of error, computers are a bit more advanced than you take them for.

Unless you were part of the ban crew you cannot conclusively say what criteria or software they used.
Computers are reliant on programming, bad code is not non-existent.
We're back to faith.

Lord Sojar

The Fallen One

Join Date: Dec 2005

Oblivion

Irrelevant

Mo/Me

06 Jun 2010 at 20:55 - 328

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

Unless you were part of the ban crew you cannot conclusively say what criteria or software they used.
Computers are reliant on programming, bad code is not non-existent.
We're back to faith.

They didn't code it wrong. It's obvious. All these people claiming innocence aren't telling the truth. Some people just fail to grasp the concept that when cornered, with no other options, people lie. In the words of Dr. House, "Everybody lies."

As to the idea that the code could be flawed, yes it's possible. However, if the code were flawed, we would be seeing a lot more people getting banned or complaining. The amount of people who have complained is huge, but the outcry would have been more substantial.

The fact we have so many people admitting they botted, and were caught, substantiates the idea that the process was very accurate.

When you have a simple process like the one they have for finding these people, it doesn't have a margin of error higher than the business accepted .9%, period. You just want to believe it does, so you and the others will have some hope that you will be unbanned. I'm afraid we live in a world where that isn't the case, and where multi billion dollar companies don't screw up extremely simple algorithms.

Trub

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Sitting in the guildhall, watching the wallows frolic.

Trinity of the ascended [SMS]+[Koss]+[TAM]=[ToA]

06 Jun 2010 at 20:58 - 329

I will take Rahja's explainations over a QQ'ers any day....sorry, it's a credibility thing...Rahja actually does have real world experience with computer shit..don't yanno?

Oh yeah:

Quote:

No company that can't give individual responses should do mass bans. Anet invoked the shitstorm on themselves by being vague and banning 3700+ players at the same time. People deserve to be helped in a decent manner at Customer Support, no matter what. They are the customers after all.

Correct ME if I am wrong, but once your perma banned...you ain't exactly a 'customer' for them to answer to?
Unless, of course...you follow the rules, and 'request' permission (In writing) to use THEIR servers again after purchasing a new game?

Ka Tet

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2006

Pita Bread And Scud Missiles Ai[iiii]

06 Jun 2010 at 21:11 - 330

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Sojar

They didn't code it wrong. It's obvious. All these people claiming innocence aren't telling the truth. Some people just fail to grasp the concept that when cornered, with no other options, people lie. In the words of Dr. House, "Everybody lies."

It's not obvious, you're speculating. You have no way t know this. And, Dr. House is neither a real Dr. nor a real person.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Sojar

As to the idea that the code could be flawed, yes it's possible. However, if the code were flawed, we would be seeing a lot more people getting banned or complaining. The amount of people who have complained is huge, but the outcry would have been more substantial.

Uh huh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Sojar

The fact we have so many people admitting they botted, and were caught, substantiates the idea that the process was very accurate.

Some of those were legit, some were anti-QQ QQ. Regardless, catching a few fish, doesn't mean a net is perfect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Sojar

When you have a simple process like the one they have for finding these people, it doesn't have a margin of error higher than the business accepted .9%, period. You just want to believe it does, so you and the others will have some hope that you will be unbanned. I'm afraid we live in a world where that isn't the case, and where multi billion dollar companies don't screw up extremely simple algorithms.

I'm not banned. Companies, regardless of net worth, screw simple things up grandly on a regular basis.

Meridon

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2008

Funny Business Inc [FBI]

06 Jun 2010 at 21:28 - 331

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Sojar

No, we don't. It's clear. If you use the mods that they have "approved" in their original form, you are fine. Anything else = risk of a ban. Beyond that, it needs to be common sense. If you lack the mental facilities to have enough common sense to make a judgment as easy as they are making this, god help you.

They shouldn't... any app that has that capability isn't approved. None of the approved mods/apps have the capability to do such things. If you are using an app that even has the capability of doing this, consider yourself a future victim of Dhuum.

You just want them to spell it out for you, and they don't need to. They aren't going to be that specific because that creates a list for people to use as excuses, and it would need to be updated all the time. It also suggests they support certain applications; they support no 3rd party apps or mods.

Bullshit. If you break the rules that you sign, you are the fool. They can do as many mass bannings as they want to, because you signed the EULA. It isn't their fault that people don't read!

As I mentioned, the 'Use at your own risk' mentality facilitates vague arbitrary banning and results in proper people potentially being banned for something the EULA wasn't clear about. Also, if there's one thing we learned from the offensive player naming discussion, common sense varies between people. What one person might perceive as ok, another may not. Which is why we need specific regulations to sort out the differences. And don't insinuate I'm a retard.

Also, the problem is there are literally thousands of potential applications that can interact with the game in some way. This leaves the field open for an even bigger amount of people to be a potential victim of Dhuum, maybe even you! They can't (and won't) disprove all of those applications, but they can attempt to approve more applications that do fall within bounds. In the case of an application that is still considered vague, people should be able to check it at Support, that's not working now since Support is already working overtime for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

I do indeed want them to spell it out for me, because that's what I, along with yourself and all the other proper and honest players of the game deserve, proper service. We're worth it, being half of the customer-developer relationship after all. It's not excuses if it's legitimate and honest play. In addition, approving/disproving applications does not equal supporting them.

You are right when you say they can do mass bannings just because we signed the EULA. However, if they do so, they should expect people responding to it. If they can't deal with the responses, that's their fault, not ours. Yes, people getting banned deserve a proper answer, because although Anet can do mass bannings, according to the EULA they can't do it without a proper reason.

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

06 Jun 2010 at 21:33 - 332

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

[*snip*]

So, wait, let's make it clear, you'd rather assume that Anet are compete amateurs and are unable to implement even a simple algorithm right... than just believe that duh, we saw tons of bots around, so a lot of players used to bot and were caught? Is that it?

Is that what we're about now? Trying to defend the undefendable?

Deceitful human rationale vs Hexadecimal Comparison?

Alesa

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2006

06 Jun 2010 at 23:29 - 333

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Sojar

Unlike most peoples' guesses, mine are based on technical knowledge of this situation. To compare... my guesses are like firing a gun with staring into the sun and having an eye patch over one eye. The other guesses in this thread are akin to firing the same gun with both your eyes ripped out and the gun is pointed the wrong way.

Again, you have ZERO knowledge. Absolutely zilch. Unless you are willing to go on record and state that an ArenaNet developer (not a community manager, not support, but a developer who was directly involved with the methods they used to search out the botters) spoke with you, leaked the secrets they were using, were involved with the process than your arguments mean nothing. It's all guessing. You can't say with any type of knowledge or confidence that the system was infallible. That they didn't mess up. That it didn't detect things that were innocent.

The problem some of us are having with posters like you, and some of the others, isn't about "faith" in ArenaNet. But on very pure mathematics and statistics that say with almost certainty that their methods were flawed. That they grouped in people who shouldn't have been there. That they are offering no appeal process but STILL telling people to contact support when they know there is nothing they will do. It's deceptive and a waste of time but they continue to shove it down our throats. Which is what this topic is all about. Emailing Support - Why are we doing it?

Motoko

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2008

Dallas, Texas

Zero Quality [zQ] /[LaG]/[USA]/[iQ]

A/E

07 Jun 2010 at 03:39 - 334

ANet should have a specific set of links that they maintain that contain the programs that are permitted in the form which they can be downloaded.

Anything else outside of those specific links (modded versions of what is contained in the links etc etc) should be considered as "use at your own risk" content.

Insert disclaimers about the supported programs etc etc no help from ANet if they mess up something etc etc.

That would signify a specific line drawn on what can be used in a official statement.

The problem you have is that many of these programs have been out for years and are subject to modification of harmful material that new players might not know is containted within the modified program. Essentially without them knowing it they have violated the EULA and are using forbidden third party applications that are "supposedly" acceptable.

There is a lot of grey area in that regards and ANet dismisses any liability for the grey area with a "use at your own risk" clause. "You can use these programs and we approve of them... BUT you might get banned." No company should be like that.

Not everyone is a super nerd and knows everything contained in a program. ANet should be responsive and take care of their player base in regards to this.

Yeah.

Move Down

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

W/Mo

08 Jun 2010 at 04:31 - 335

Wel i got banned while i didnt do anything apperantly i got banned for raptor farming.
The only thing i have done is the red resign day a while back but evrybody did that.
But the GM's wont even share the information that they have why and how i got banned
it would compromise there bot detecting program they say.
And that was the only answer i got from them.
So this is my last ncsoft game i ever bought

tsupert

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2007

Odama Clan

W/R

08 Jun 2010 at 22:10 - 336

"No company that can't give individual responses should do mass bans. Anet invoked the shitstorm on themselves by being vague and banning 3700+ players at the same time. People deserve to be helped in a decent manner at Customer Support, no matter what. They are the customers after all."

GET OUT NOW,
Alright, these ******'s ruin pvp for me, destroy all skillful play, and inflate the market. Now, you want ANET to take resources off of the game i have waited for multiple years for because these cheaters are whining they cheated and are sad anet took action.

Your idea is terrible.

kwkossick

Academy Page

Join Date: Feb 2008

Dark

D/Me

08 Jun 2010 at 22:43 - 337

btw, think i got a human response for the first time

Life Bringing

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2008

Fissure of Woe

[LOD]/[GS]/[DL]/[LOD*]

N/P

08 Jun 2010 at 22:45 - 338

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwkossick

btw, think i got a human response for the first time

You didn't. That's the automated response for when you have two tickets with a similar purpose.

Motoko

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2008

Dallas, Texas

Zero Quality [zQ] /[LaG]/[USA]/[iQ]

A/E

09 Jun 2010 at 02:36 - 339

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

You didn't. That's the automated response for when you have two tickets with a similar purpose.

This.

Also they will never respond to you.

I've done tests and sent another "I've been banned" message to them on an unbanned account and they checked it and said they "are glad my problem is solved...good day" within 48 hours.

This occured while I have an outstanding support ticket a week and a half old.

PuppyEater

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2005

I'm on the left...

Guilds? Where we're going we don't need guilds...

R/Rt

10 Jun 2010 at 04:30 - 340

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alesa

That they grouped in people who shouldn't have been there.

The problem with this argument is that there is no way to prove to us here on a forum that person banned didn't bot and was just a victim of crossfire.

If I were banned for botting from Jan-May '10 and then came here claiming I was just using some benign program that is supposedly ok, I can't go back in time and provide some kind of proof of that. The only proof is on Anet's end and they aren't going to share it with me or anyone else...

belshazaarswrath

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

AMP

10 Jun 2010 at 04:50 - 341

Quote:

Why are we being told by ArenaNet and NCSoft to email support, if support has no intention of even listening to what we have to say (as evidenced by the automated replies)?

Because they really don't care about the people they used as an example even if they were innocent. They are simply doing this to save face.

Quote:

How can ArenaNet and NCSoft be so absolutely sure (as evidenced by Martin Kerstein's responses quoted above, and again, the automated support replies) that, in a case of three thousand seven hundred bans, there can not be any margin of error?

To any normal person it would be obvious that there has to be a margin of error. I guess they think their way of doing things are just that good? Pretty arrogant if you ask me...

No matter how good their system is they need to give people a chance because there will always be mistakes made.

Shadowspawn X

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jun 2005

Fellowship of Champions

R/E

10 Jun 2010 at 05:54 - 342

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

No matter how good their system is they need to give people a chance because there will always be mistakes made.

People cheated and that's the bottom line. Begging for mercy after the fact is a waste of time. Just move on.

belshazaarswrath

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

AMP

10 Jun 2010 at 06:03 - 343

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

People cheated and that's the bottom line. Begging for mercy after the fact is a waste of time. Just move on.

What the hell are you talking about?

If Anet made a mistake then the person who was banned unjustly should be let back into the game.

Unless you think people should just be banned at random?

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

10 Jun 2010 at 07:04 - 344

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

If Anet made a mistake then the person who was banned unjustly should be let back into the game.

As far as we know each case is being reviewed and, quite frankly, I tend to believe Gaile's statements on this more than some random guy.

They then send automated e-mails to confirm the termination. So? Did you expect them to send individual e-mails to each user appealing for the ban? Won't happen, EVER. Support is there for a reason, they're not penpushers you know.

I was unjustly banned one year ago (involved in the "payment fraud" glitch on the store). I received automated responses all the time but still, my ban was lifted in the end. Guess what? Even the final message communicating the resolution of this incident was an automated response. You can't just assume that the don't review players' situations just because they've no time to waste with custom replies to each of the multiple tickets sent by 3700 people, expecially since most of those are contacting support with no margin of appeal as they're confirmed botters...

Iuris

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

Crazy ducks from the Forest

W/

10 Jun 2010 at 10:06 - 345

For some reason, people keep forgetting that an appeal requires actual grounds for an appeal. Why would an appeal going "but I only botted for two weeks!" warrant anything more than an automated response?

The "appeal to support" was meant for people with false positives - NOT for those guilty.

Move Down

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

W/Mo

10 Jun 2010 at 15:39 - 346

well i never botted and got banned and support didnt do anything they suck.
and i will never touch any ncsoft game again

belshazaarswrath

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

AMP

10 Jun 2010 at 16:47 - 347

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

As far as we know each case is being reviewed and, quite frankly, I tend to believe Gaile's statements on this more than some random guy.

And I tend to believe in the numbers more than Gaile...

3700 people is a lot of people and there must be at least 1 person who is innocent. And that person deserves to have a channel in which he can get his account back even if he is the only innocent one.

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

10 Jun 2010 at 17:37 - 348

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

And I tend to believe in the numbers more than Gaile...

3700 people is a lot of people and there must be at least 1 person who is innocent. And that person deserves to have a channel in which he can get his account back even if he is the only innocent one.

Sure.

And what leads you to believe that this one person is a Guru member? Why do you assume that innocent people are wasting their time claiming their innocence in the wrong place, such as unofficial forums like this? How do you know that the few innocent people around haven't got their accounts back yet? Why do you believe that each Guru member claiming his/her innocence is actually innocent?

When the Online Store payment system glitched last year, it took 2 weeks for support to review and fix each unjustly terminated account. 2 weeks, and I'm pretty sure the number of accounts involved was much lower than 3700.

Automated responses still come after some review: if people are confirmed positive, the channel is closed, as there's no ground to appeal. How's that difficult to understand? What did you expect?

It's naive to say the least to assume that Support is keeping innocent people out of the game out of spite... To me, it's much easier to believe that these people are actually not that innocent...

belshazaarswrath

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

AMP

10 Jun 2010 at 18:43 - 349

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Sure.

And what leads you to believe that this one person is a Guru member? Why do you assume that innocent people are wasting their time claiming their innocence in the wrong place, such as unofficial forums like this? How do you know that the few innocent people around haven't got their accounts back yet? Why do you believe that each Guru member claiming his/her innocence is actually innocent?

When the Online Store payment system glitched last year, it took 2 weeks for support to review and fix each unjustly terminated account. 2 weeks, and I'm pretty sure the number of accounts involved was much lower than 3700.

Automated responses still come after some review: if people are confirmed positive, the channel is closed, as there's no ground to appeal. How's that difficult to understand? What did you expect?

It's naive to say the least to assume that Support is keeping innocent people out of the game out of spite... To me, it's much easier to believe that these people are actually not that innocent...

I don't see why whether their on the forum or not matters. I'm talking about in the grand scale rather than just here.

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

10 Jun 2010 at 19:00 - 350

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

I don't see why whether their on the forum or not matters. I'm talking about in the grand scale rather than just here.

It matters: you won't know about unbanned people unless they let you know.

You can't safely assume innocent people are being left out just because most of the Guru users contacting support with no reasonable ground for appeal have received automated responses.

belshazaarswrath

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

AMP

10 Jun 2010 at 20:22 - 351

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

It matters: you won't know about unbanned people unless they let you know.

You can't safely assume innocent people are being left out just because most of the Guru users contacting support with no reasonable ground for appeal have received automated responses.

Without specific instances of people who were unjustly banned you can still say with a fair level of confidence that at least a few of the people were banned unjustly just by the sheer amount of people and the methods that anet used (or at least that I've been told that they used).

Guru or no guru there are still people who have been unjustly banned and they deserve a channel in which to get their account back rather than an automated response that will in the end get them nowhere no matter what.

I'm not saying the vast majority didn't deserve it. I'm just sayin the few that got hit for no reason are a big deal.

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

10 Jun 2010 at 21:42 - 352

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Guru or no guru there are still people who have been unjustly banned

And the source of these claim is...? Guru members posting here in this thread? Statistics? "There must be one" isn't really relevant, you know...

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

and they deserve a channel in which to get their account back rather than an automated response that will in the end get them nowhere no matter what.

They do have a channel. Contacting support is it. They also need some ground for appeals.

Again, they'll get "automated" responses in most cases. Mind you that "automated responses" are actually pre-formatted messages sent manually by GMs. Even the "We reviewed your incident and we realized you were banned in error" a player would receive if unbanned is a pre-written, copy-pasted message.

All we know by this topic is that some Guru users have been contacting Support, Support reviewed their situation and found them guilty and chose not to lift their ban.

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

10 Jun 2010 at 21:50 - 353

I see two issues on the table in this thread. I am not convinced that either can be resolved through further discussion.

1) Claim: ANet must have banned innocent people.

There's no existence proof for this. An unjustly banned player could supply an existence proof if it were possible to provide evidence that they did not cheat, but this is not possible. We can never know with certainty how ANet determined who got banned; it's to their advantage to be as opaque as possible. As a result, it's impossible for the community as a whole to ever know whether unjust bans were handed out. All we can do is speculate. I'd guess that at least one unjust ban occurred, but I can't be sure.

2) Claim: If accounts have been banned unjustly, ANet must respond and remedy the injustice.

Whether or not they're obligated to resolve that problem (assuming it exists) depends on your views about justice. If you take a Mill utilitarian approach and argue that what's good for the community as a whole is by definition just, then in making the community better ANet is justified in handing out a few unwarranted bans. If you take a more Jeffersonian approach that it is better for the cheaters to prosper than to ban the innocent, then ANet's actions are not.

Philosophers argue about the meaning of justice because there is no definitive answer, only answers that justice definitively is not. Either perspective in the thread is valid, and further argument will just go in circles.

Is there anything that I'm missing here, or is it time to shut this one down?

Gondrakif

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2009

GMT +2

11 Jun 2010 at 00:04 - 354

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

An unjustly banned player could supply an existence proof if it were possible to provide evidence that they did not cheat, but this is not possible.

Bulls-eye. That is the main problem: once you are banned (rightfully or not) there is nothing you can do to prove Anet wrong, and since Anet has already found you guilty there is no reason for them to lift the ban. Yeah sure people make mistakes but that isn't absolute so there is a chance that all terminated accounts were indeed botting (and i expect them to have double-checked everything before terminating an account to zero out false positives). But as Gill Halendt said there may be accounts where the ban was lifted and we just don't know about them because they don't use forums or go around spamming it in-game.

Faith_Hope_Lost

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2008

[Kids]

N/

11 Jun 2010 at 17:56 - 355

An astute and succinct post Martin Alvito, all I can say then is…. Woot I’m collateral damage. Then lay down and die.

Move Down

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

W/Mo

11 Jun 2010 at 18:49 - 356

Same here collateral damage but i was good for 4 accounts on 3 i had a gwamm.
And no thx to NCSOFT i am gonna break the EULA and sell the other accounts.
And 3 of my friends i always played with stopped too.
NCsoft is doing more harm to the game then the botters if you ask me

Emunator

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2006

DVDF

Mo/E

11 Jun 2010 at 20:54 - 357

When i tell them :

Quote:

Please dont close this whitout an actual response.
It really hurts that i lost all my acomplishments over 4 years.
Like i said before i never botted since i dont need it.
I was just coming back to play guild wars a bit more after a long time of hardly playing.
I was enjoying the new Kryta quests since you people are doing a great job atm with the new content.
I did buy costumes in the online store to support you people even more towards guild wars 2.
And now i get treated like this.

Like i explained before i dont play PvP, so no need for interrupt bots, snowball throwing bots or whatever they made.

The raptor bot what i did read was one of the most used wouldn't be useful for me either since i dont farm raptors/vaettirs, you can see that in my logs.
You can even check my characters, my oldests one would be the elementalist and he has not even been to Ratasum to farm raptors. My warrior is in pre-searing.

Yes i am sorry that i did use Faker and injected dll, but ksmod is allowed and it does inject too.
Texmod is also allowed as a 3rd party programm so is gwx2.

But it all comes down to that i never did anything to give me an unfair advantage.
Check your logs for real please and you can see that.

But i beg of you please restore my account and i will promise from my side i wont use those 3rd party applications anymore.

And they respond with this :

Quote:

Hello,

If you do not recall using any third-party programs you may wish to check with anyone else in your house that has access to your Guild Wars account. Please understand that we do not provide the exact methods used to pinpoint the offense. This preserves our ability to track and monitor the offending activity being used. Due to the violations committed by this account, it will remain closed. We will not accept appeals in cases such as this because of the depth of the analysis prior to the block. We regret the necessity of terminating any game account, but we will continue to take all necessary actions to protect the Guild Wars community and to assure that players are abiding by our User Agreement.

Please keep in mind that Guild Wars is a global game with hundreds of thousands of players. This means that standards of behavior must be upheld. For your convenience, you can obtain more information about our rules at the addresses listed below.

- User Agreement: http://www.guildwars.com/support/leg...-agreement.php

- Rules of Conduct: http://www.guildwars.com/support/leg...sofconduct.php

- Conduct Breaches & Outcomes: http://www.guildwars.com/support/leg...d_outcomes.php

Regards,

Lead GM Oghma
The Guild Wars Support Team

They are definitly not reading. since i told them i used a 3rd party app, and they are only using auto responses, i have had enough of them for now since there is not a single sign of humanity left.

Zarion Silverarrow

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2008

Puerto Rico

The Annunaki Interventionists

P/W

11 Jun 2010 at 23:19 - 358

Quote:

Originally Posted by Move Down

Same here collateral damage but i was good for 4 accounts on 3 i had a gwamm.
And no thx to NCSOFT i am gonna break the EULA and sell the other accounts.
And 3 of my friends i always played with stopped too.
NCsoft is doing more harm to the game then the botters if you ask me

The point of the massive bans was to "make the players happy,please them" (this isn't purely my idea,another guy said it before,but I just agree and wanted to say it)

Making 3 of your friends to quit wont make A-net lose money. You already payed for GW1,and with GW2 they will lose $150ish,nothing.

Sure there are others,but the # of unbanned people+banned because they did bot,outweights the unjustly banned that are not going to buy NCsoft games anymore.

I for one,do not care who makes the game. I will buy GW2,it seems fun.

Though,I will use nothing,nada,zero,not even a program made by A-net,if it influences GW2 in anyway,I will not use it.

Emunator

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2006

DVDF

Mo/E

16 Jun 2010 at 20:17 - 359

Well guess they wont unban anyone.
This is the last ticket i made towards them

Quote:

Thank you for ruining over 4 years of playing guild wars for me.

You people are not even reading my defenses since I only get automated responses and you people keep closing my tickets.

So the last time I tell this to you, I did never bot.
Yes I used a 3rd party app that might be wrong in your eyes but it did never give me any advantage over anyone else. So I could live with a temporary ban.

I really don’t want to buy a new account since I don’t have the time to replay everything again.

So the last time I ask, please look into my account and have it reinstated.
And please give me an honest direct answer not one of those automated ones.

Greetings,
Eric Huigens.

Then they responded with the following

Quote:

Response (GM Oghma)
Hello again,

This game account was found to have used a disallowed third-party program. As previously stated this account will remain closed; this is our final decision on the matter.

Regards,

Lead GM Oghma
The Guild Wars Support Team

Guess no matter what reason they will not unban anyone from those account bans.
They could check their logs to see i never botted but that doesnt matter to them.
It seems that they only want to show people how good they try to do something against botters.
To bad their is not a single sign of humanity left by at least saying "What you did was wrong, you have been banned for over 2 weeks now and we will make it a temp ban."

Well i dont know what to do anymore besides taking it to court wich is going to be expensive since their closest office is in the UK, to bad they dont have an office in The Netherlands.

Tullzinski

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Mar 2006

Trying to stay out of Ryuk's Death Note

N/R

17 Jun 2010 at 13:02 - 360

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emunator

Finally a little spark of hope.
Gaile Gray decided to look into my banning.
Seems they can be human when they want too.

I have mailed her all the info she asked for and now i will just have to wait.

I hope it works out for you. Was this program like the achievement faker thing that is all over WOW?

edit: you may want to remove your real name from the above posts, call me paranoid but it would not hurt.