Speedbooking- is it an Exploit?

same as running not an exploit because its playing the game how its meant to be played. books were meant to be cashed in for rep. points. figuring out the most efficient way to do it is fine. paying someone to do the missions for you is fine.

i'd be more worried about exploits such as ferrying e.t.c.

So this settles it. Now you people can quit with your theories. It's amazing what some of you people come up with. Next time someone asks you can tell them without a doubt speedbooking is not a bannable offence.

basically saying: "There is no possible way that we can detect you doing this exploit. It is an exploit that we are well aware of but not concerned about at this moment because it is non-threatening. Since we know it exists, can't track you when you take advantage of it, and we know that it doesn't really matter, it's not a violation."

Typical guru member twisting things around. Case is closed pal.

Exactly right -- even if it isn't bannable, if it makes you feel slimy don't do it.

Hero flagging is slimy.

This is clearly an exploit imo but I agree with A-Net not banning for it.

It would probably take them more time than they have to reprogram NPC's to trigger normal spawns.

They just did this in todays update. hero speedbooking is done.

Well, I hope whoever insists it's an exploit is happy now. Apparently it's 'nerfed' now. So now we must go back to annoying vanquish grinding just to get 4k of rep. Yup. Hope the people are happy. Killjoys.

Grindwars is coming everybody! Get excited!

Sigh, one of the few 'meta' popular things I actually got into. Stayed away from the SF sins, the ursans, etc. This was kinda fun for me. Oh well, guess I won't get any EotN titles anymore.

Did this seriously just get nerfed? Wow, amazing timing for me. Just started doing it 2 days ago to finish off my Norn and Vanguard title, and I finished my last of 56 books last night, except for AtfH, which I still have to do 11 more times. Really glad I did it now <_<.

Gotta love how ANet works. Throw down the ban hammer to scare people into playing the game as it was intended.

Some people roll the dice on Speedbooking and max titles easily in a way which was unintended and then it is nerfed but those people aren't banned. So basically use an exploit early on and hope you don't get banned after they fix it.

The people who suffered from this are those who "played the game as it was intended" and grind their way up that stupid rep experience bar for days on end while a few people who rolled the dice on an exploit got easy rewards quickly with minimal effort get to keep their undeserved rewards while the rest of us have to continue to grind grind grind grind grind.

GG ANet, classy move there.

Ah come on eotn titles are pretty easy to get, I got my titles from completing the game, dungeons, zaishen and VQ.

'Scuse me, but I got Master of the North and all I've maxed was Norn. And that was because I grinded it in the Ursan days. On average, playing the game "normally" for these easy titles should get you estimated near 60,000 Vanguard, 10,000 Delver, and 9,000 Asura. That doesn't look easy to max to me, because even with Delver, you got 60,000 more to go. Keep in mind I'm talking post-vanquishing all of eotn, hm and nming ALL dungeons, etc.. etc...

Do the math and you will see it's not so easy without a grind.

I'd like to note I NEVER speedbooked before though.

Agreed.
And, you people now tell me how getting dead, flagging and afking can be mfunnier than do this things.

The recent dropping of the ban hammer has bothered me a lot. I don't have an issue with the botting bans. Botting is clearly against the rules.

My issue is with bans for Guild Wars exploits.

When I talk about bans for exploits I'm talking about the bans that fell under the umbrella term of "match fixing". Now match fixing seems to apply to resigning during an MaT so both teams got points, resigning an an arena to give the other team Z Quest points and now apparently leeching is also match fixing.

I'll quote Gaile Gray from her support issues talk page on the Guild Wars Wiki when asked for an expanded definition of match fixing, please note I am quoting paragraphs not entire posts of hers and it's possible some meaningful context is lost, if you wish to see the full discussion you can find it on the wiki;
Specifically I'd like to draw attention to this part.

Now if people were banned for /resigning in PvP arenas to get Z Coin rewards, or leeching in FA or JQ to get allegiance faction, these people were not playing the game as it was intended and thus getting undeserved and unearned rewards.

What about people who used speed booking? These players did not play the game as it was intended. They did not play through a mission designed to take about 10-20 minutes to complete. They didn't really play at all - their heroes and henchmen did without spawning mobs that are supposed to be dealt with in order for the mission (and the book reward) to be balanced.

These players achieved titles, gold and experience as a reward for using an exploit (which was later removed from the game after it was brought to ArenaNet's attention). Other players have to grind raptors or vanquish zones to max the same titles, which is a significant amount of time required.

Where is the consistency? Why were players who used one exploit which didn't play the game as intended and gave unearned rewards banned and the other players who exploited the game ignored? Players who didn't use the speed book exploit missed out because it was nerfed but people who did it get to keep their titles and accounts. The rest of us have to play the game as it was intended.

When asked for some kind of FAQ to elaborate on vague umbrella terms like Match Fixing or even exploits which people can be banned for this was the response;
The perception that exploits and game abuse are "clear" is just plain wrong. Guild Wars is a game which is played on exploits. Some are more obvious than others and grant greater rewards (speed booking, vanquishing areas while having a quest active which reduces enemy numbers to either none or very few, skipping large chunks of slaver's exile so you can kill Duncan over and over). Some seem benign and harmless with minimal reward (using shadow steps to jump past the Golems during the Trial of Zinn so you can explore Arbor Bay without mobs, using Recall on a hero to slip past krytan villagers and Lose Magic in Divinity Coast Explorable so you can sneak a peak at what is happening there). Most methods of completing elite missions in HM involve some kind of exploit.

More importantly, ArenaNet themselves have a history of treating exploits with different levels of punishment (not necessarily relating to the level of offence). Some are completely ignored giving a perception that it's not an exploit but a creative way of playing the game and some are permanent bans. Some people considered the strategies in the above paragraph to be exploits, some people don't. That shows there is an inconsistency in perception of exploits and how clear it truly is.

I want ArenaNet to provide some of kind FAQ to give more detailed information on what they consider exploits in the current meta. They obviously already have a list - they are using it as ban criteria, so why can't they show us the ban criteria? I'm not asking for them to reveal detection critier, just a specific breach banned accounts are making that earn them a ban. "Match Fixing" or "Game Exploit" is incredibly vague. There are players who sometimes use exploits thinking its a fair and creative way to play the game. Most of these players would stop doing this if they were told that it was wrong and a bannable offence.

My goal here is for ArenaNet to become more transparent in their ban process. Getting banned because of a hidden rule book which could fit one of a million interpretations of the deliberately vague EULA is unfair. People already document most exploits on the wiki, in forums or teach them in game. People already argue it's not specifically in the EULA and thus can't be banned for it. Support already has a list because they are banning for it.

Get rid of the secrecy, lift the curtain and let us know what it is people are doing wrong so we don't do it as well. If something ArenaNet didn't think was wrong pops up, chances are players didn't know it either and a fair warning can be given.

even though i can't blame you (the OP) 1 bit for asking anet the question, i'm giving you a dirty look in my mind.

Agree on this and i feel your pain but you can't compare MAT and speedbooking. They've always considered pvp srs bsns.

According to that speed clears should be considered exploit. God forbid that someone detaches from the group and soloes some quest, although they've taken care of that to considering what they did to sliver (or fixing the bug in sliver as they say).
Edit:
"There is no "point of tolerance" for cheating. If you cheat once, you risk an account termination. If you aren't caught today, you may be caught tomorrow."

"If you're not caught for a while, maybe we're taking names and building a list that will include your account. Maybe we don't have the tools yet to track a particular issue, but are working on that tool. Maybe when it's enabled, everyone who ever used that particular cheat will be banned."

They said that red resign was match manipulation. So considering this shit above in italic there will be more banned ppl. How bout save us some fcking time and tell us that right now. It would save time of a couple thousand people.
Dammit i raged.

I agree with you. In a game as old as Guild Wars it is only natural for people to have fun by finding weird ways to play the game. And if you start banning people for this where do you stop? If you stop seemingly arbitrarily the player base doesn't know what the hell your thinking and will feel nervous going from ToA to the Shiverpeaks for vanquishing purposes. If you are stopping at the point where all forms of exploits are bannable then people won't be having much fun at all and the game will be so linear that it is unplayable (maybe). Then again if you just let people go crazy you will have people finding new ways to dupe things and screw up the game entirely. So I think you're right and the only solution is transparency with what is right and wrong so that everyone has a clear idea of what is allowed and what isn't.

Anet needs to make a list and stick to that list. Until it does I'm putting on my aluminum cap.

The main thing is you do not HAVE to use EXPLOITS to complete anything in this game. The thousands of us who don't use them have proved this. Therefore anything exploity can and should be looked at by Anet and the criminals banned. It's just like Gaile said if it looks like an exploit then it usually is an exploit and you shouldn't do it anyway. Play the game as intended. By the numbers, by the numerous battles and by the time limits created with the normal and regular way of playing. Stop trying to make excuses or look for loopholes to cheat it's not going to work as Anet has the final say and can do anything at any time with THEIR DISCRETION if they see fit. It's their game buddy boy. You bought a license to play it and nothing more. You have no rights when it comes to how the game was intended to be played.

You say that as if the population of people who play the game and use exploits of some kind is a small number of people and that simply isn't true. Hell the 1000+ people who botted were just a drop in the bucket as far as banning botters go and exploits are accessible to everyone. Also they may have the rights to the game but if no one's playing their damn game it's worthless so you can take the "oh but it's their game card" and throw it a way. It's as much our game as it is theirs.

And as I just explained a 5 year old game is going to be VERY STALE if people aren't trying to find new ways to do things. And with limited updates a lot of new fun things to do involve exploits. It's the nature of the beast.

I agree.

I disagree with Gaile on not making a book/list of things considered cheating (maybe not for PvE) as we need a list of what is considered match fixing and exploiting in PvP.

I feel her pain on it, and see the nuisance of it and all it would create, but we can't continue not knowing for certain what is and isn't allowed.

(Also, her first point on having to update it every other week is pointless, putting an extra line of text in a document isn't that hard, time-consuming or stressful)

But, like Belshazaarswrath said, if the game wasn't so old and fairly boring, people wouldn't exploit and use strange, over powered tactics.

I think this is mainly a problem in PvE because in PvP it's not hard to determine what is probably allowed and what isn't.

Are speedclears allowed, for example?

So what, am I going to banned in 3 months because I took part in "Red Resign" day? According to the above post I can be banned for taking part in RR day, so what I would like to know is am I? Would save me a lot of wasted time as already posted.

What's that? It sounds like something they wouldn't retroactively ban people for...but obviously you never know.

I have to say, the whole bit about:

..is a little scary!

What they seem to be saying there is:

"There doesn't have to be any kind of rule about why we ban you, there doesn't even have to be any reason! We can and will do it."

I actually find it rather threatening. I do think you are right, half the fun of the game is finding the most efficient way to play it - and it seems that some of these ways Anet will consider an exploit. I suppose on the border between efficient play and exploit its very difficult to know where to draw the line.

Did you know, for example, by using superior runes and a focus which gives -50 health you can reduce your health to just 55hp? Then by using Prot Spirit and health regen you can become pretty much invincible! No fake!

I myself rarely farm, I don't tend to do organised PvP and I wouldn't know how to even find a botting program - let alone use it. But I know that I can clear HM areas pretty quickly, I've used builds which allow me to storm through Guardian and maxed a lot of titles. I'm not sure what part of my actions would skim the line of exploit, but I shudder to think of the gw-police-state which the above statement makes me think of.

I wholeheartedly support the banning of the 3700 bots, but I'm not sure about this "exploit" malarky.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Red_Resign

Don't know how you could have missed it as you could hardly even go into GTOB on those days without people yelling "HAPPY RR DAY EVERYONE" about every 4 seconds. Then again, I never found out about RR until the last one they had before HB got removed. At the time I did not know it was such a big deal.

Nor did I think it was a bannable offense seeing as there were a bloated amount of districts in HB all of people doing RR. So what I wanna know is Anet going to ban all of the people who used RR in the next couple months...

Relying on players' ability to discern wether they're cheating or not is stupid.

This "play responsibly and don't worry about it, we could ban you any time for anything that might resemble a cheat" answer is simply idiotic. They should take a more moderate and educative approach to exploits, such as instructing players and warning against potential abuses and banning only after repeated and severe offenses. Right now they're yet to ban anyone for, say, speedbooking or ferrying, but they could do it any time by Gaile's statement. With no forewarning. With no possibility to appeal.

So, I have a long story as a gamer, playing videogames since I was 5-6 years old. I'm a "professional gamer" and still I don't know if some stuff in the game is allowed or not. Heck, they can't even define "exploits": something playing "not in the way it was meant to be played" is way too vague.

Example: The Curse of the Nornbear.

I - and probably everyone out there - know Svanir's spawning points by heart, so I usually don't bother getting the Wolven Blessing as I don't need Volfen Bloodlust to locate him anymore. I usually skip the first cave and go straight to his first spawning point, beat Svanir and then play the mission normally. I'm not playing the mission as mandated by the questlog, which in fact isn't updated for the whole duration of the missione, as I'm skipping the first objective. Is that a cheat?

Is preemptive interruption soon after engaging battle a cheat?

Leaving your dead teammates behind in the Great Northern Wall mission and reaching Captain Callahan alone... is that a cheat? Guess not, it's even suggested by the game itself, yet that's the principle behind running, which is not the way the game was "meant to be played" and, by Gaile's definition, a cheat and hence a "bannable offense"...

Oh yea I heard of that...I just never heard anyone call it that.

Using a runner to accelerate your advancement hasn't been an issue in five years, I see no reason why Speed Booking should be treated any differently.

[EDIT: Disregard that. Turns out the Wiki description of speed booking wasn't quite accurate.]

As for their unwillingness to provide a categorical list of bannable offenses, you're kidding yourself if you think any sane MMO developer would consider doing that. Such a list would both be difficult to maintain and incredibly exploitable.

ANet clearly disagrees with you about Speed Booking because the nerfed it.

The difficulty of maintaining it would be as difficult as banning people in the first place would it not?

If you are banning someone for something you should know why you are banning them for it.

The support staff are not sylvari. They are not born with communal knowledge gained by everyone before them. If the support staff have some kind of knowledge to let them know what is bannable and what is not, then there should be nothing stopping them from letting the players know the same things they teach their own staff.

The arguments used against people who were banned for "match fixing" could be applied to almost every exploit on some level. If people start getting banned for exploits in general (which apparently are clear to everyone anyway - this thread disagrees) I'm sure a lot of people would desire an expanded explanation of the EULA and RoC. It doesn't need to be a legal document that considers every situation, but saying match fixing as an umbrella term for "doing something we don't want you to do in PvP" is too broad to interpretation in many ways.

I'd be more concerned about getting banned for Red Resign Day.

Update - Thursday, June 3, 2010..........New spawns have been added to Against the Charr and Curse of the Nornbear that may have been intended to prevent speed booking.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/News

GG guys anything else u want eradicated from GW?!?!?

No, they didn't: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...69&postcount=1

Is there still no official word on Red Resigns from a year ago?
Even though it seems unlikely that they will ban all those people (I mean come on, there were 16+ districts doing it...) I really hate walking on eggshells.

Okay, this thread has served it's purpose, since Hero Speedbooking has been eliminated, and therefore it must have counted as an exploit. Could a mod please close this thread?

As a final word on the whole matter, it is clear to me now this was an exploit. And no, it isn't the same as running or getting to level twenty before leaving pre-searing Ascalon, nor is it the same as a pre-emptive interrupt in any way shape or form. All those things require effort or skill to do.

Hero speedbooking was easy and took less than five minutes, any mug could get the builds and then breeze through the titles.

There is also good reasoning why people who did do it are not the same as other exploiters. PvP exploits obviously cause the opposing team to suffer, or allow people to get sellable items. This exploit just made faction farming faster and didn't effect the in-game economy or other players negativity.

Some runners may have been payed for it, but it would be impossible or at least very resource intensive to separate those who did from those who didn't, and Anet is unlikely to risk another blanket ban after all the turmoil this botting one has caused.

At the end of the day, I've noticed that a lot of people are really harsh on Anet. Anet are a company, a company which is in the process of making a game and at the same time supporting Guild Wars. It is unfair to demand so much of them all the time, and though of course it is reasonable to expect support, we can't be so indignant when it takes a while coming around, it's not like we're paying monthly.

It seems to me it's a bit damned if you do damned if you don't for Anet. In this thread, for instance, some people want everybody who used the speedbooking exploit banned, others wanted it left alone and others still wanted it removed but the exploiters left alone. I figure it must be pretty hard for Anet to appease everybody, but I think here they've done the thing that is best for the community in the long run.

well, it is no longer an expoit

Speedbooking is still very much viable...just not the hero variant. The ppl running it will simply become more visable now that the hero options is out.

This thread became a debate about exploits in general and how ANet chooses to act on them. People were discussing whether bans for things like speed booking would even be fair seeing as many players didn't even think it was cheating.