Nerf DwG

Please show me the handbook where it says a game (in any genre) must exclude players of a lesser skill from content.

That's like saying an 17 year old with a learners permit is not allowed to use the raging CD player and sound system in his brand new car because he does not have the skill or experience behind the wheel that his Father does, or that he can even drive that brand new car in the first place.

Hanok

Then no one that complained about Ursan should have used Ursan. See what I did there?

Well, DwG is only used in NORMAL (Repeat: NORMAL) mode so in fact casuals are already locked out of some contents in the game...they can't complete DoA HM with DwG.

So what's the problem?

To me this is just another case of constantly changing (lowering) standards with regards to skills and elite areas. I still remember people complaining about Ursan 1-2-3 and CoP 1-2-1 saying that newbs should stick to normal mode. Guess what, those people succeeded in getting what they want, and still won't stop yapping.

/NOT signed

Weak analogy. GW is more like highschool, and elite areas are like sports teams and the mathletes in highschool. Everyone's entitled to get through highschool, but not everyone is entitled to be on the mathletes or the rugby team.

Ursan was effective. Just about everywhere. DwG is barely mediocre in DoA, and not used anywhere else.

Those things are competitive - completing the DoA is not.
Whilst better, your analogy is more akin to getting into top GvG teams.
Completing the DoA is more like getting good grades. If everyone was getting As (or whatever it is in Highschool), then clearly something is wrong.


It can be used in Hardmode. Mantra of Frost and Winter (on top of what is already a ton of defense) should be enough to prop up the DwG spikers anywhere.

But they are not prevented from using/participating in those things in their own way. They may not be a member of the football team, yet they can still play the same game on the same field using the same rules if they so desire. The game they play is just not on the same level of their more athletic counterparts.

It is unfortunate that the MMO genre has developed the mindset of exclusivity when its RPG forebears were created to allow players to pick and choose the level of challenge they received in order to allow them to complete all of the content, regardless of skill. Again, when we talk GW, we are talking about breaking the mold - a mainstream MMO that had no monthly fee; a free MMO that (while it now incorporates micro-transactions), does not micro-transaction you to death (nor require them to access any playable content); an MMO that was designed to appeal to the casual distinctly non-MMO playerbase; An MMO that can also be played as a single-player game.

GW may not be perfect, but it has been one damn good game and one that has bucked the trend time and again. I'm not a big multi-player gamer, but GW is the only one I have experienced that actually also created more than one level of difficulty for playing the game, in the vein of the single-player games of old. In this regard, there is no reason why GW can't buck the trend again by allowing further refinement to the difficulty level and allow players of lesser skill to experience and complete harder and Elite areas of the game.

Hanok

The logic was "let people play how they want to". Not "unless it's effective everywhere". Beyond that, it's the same excuse again: it's not as bad. So it is a problem, it's just not big enough for people to care about until it's so bad it can't be ignored. What's ironic is that's exactly what Anet is constantly criticized of: not caring.

/nerf please.

If you wanna use that "the game's dead let the people have their fun" excuse, Un-nerf Shadow Form, Ursan, UW, Sliver Armor, Team Arenas, XTH, and CoP.

pretty much this and what someone else said, 4 people spamming the same elite skill will be (duh) OP and easymode but come on it's normal mode who cares everything is OP there lol

So you think people shouldn't be allowed to play an ineffective build? Of all the things that there are to bitch about, people are bothering to complain about bad niche builds that only get one area done, IN NORMAL MODE. Get the hell out of there with that fun police bullshit.


True.

They're not called elite areas because they're dumbed down to the skill level of a vanquish. They're called elite areas because they take preparation and teamwork. If players don't want to actually learn how to play, or join a guild that does "elite areas" then they don't seem to care so much about the area at all.

Haha, what?

If it was "ineffective" and "bad", it wouldn't be the meta, would it?

And why is normal mode an exception? Because that's for "lulz", and is already a "joke"? The only joke is how little people actually care about balance when it comes down to brass tacks. It's just a little power creep, it's still good, it's still good!

iBot DwG/channeled spiking in HA once wiped altar and killed 2 entire teams of 8.
Funniest score chart ever. HUGE dip for 2 teams at once.

I don't like how they hated on channeling magic though and then buff DwG to super ridiculous damage.

That's right, because playing games should be work, and if you're having fun, you must be doing something wrong.


That's making an assumption based on a generalization. Again, still waiting to see that page in the handbook where it says a player must be excluded from enjoying a portion of a game as they see fit based solely on their level of skill or their motivation (or lack thereof) to improve said skill level.

There's nothing wrong with having modes that allow players of lesser skill to also experience those areas to learn and aspire to take it on at a higher difficulty level if they so choose ... and even if they don't choose. There have been many games that have done just that over the years - it's a part of the industry, and one of the things that has made it great - giving people the option to choose how to play a game, and the kind of challenge they wanted to experience. Again, GW can continue to be innovative by bucking the norm and being successful at it by making such changes that allow more players to experience all content while still offering a higher level of challenge for those who desire it.

Hanok

Guild Wars PvE is essentially a set of challenges for players to overcome.
If every player can overcome every challenge with ease (even in Normal Mode), then indicates a real issue.
Nothing of course, should really stop a player from attempting these challenges (hence the Normal Mode campaign is really quite easy), but teams of poor players should really be pushed to accomplish something with an "elite" tag.

Why should they be pushed? Why should they have to work if they don't want to? There's enough of that going on in the real world, there's no need to have that in our fantasy worlds that we create for the very purpose of escaping the real world. I have an issue if players cannot find a large enough challenge in a game to suit their needs (if said game was not designed to specifically not offer much in the the way of challenging gameplay), but that also does not automatically mean every player who comes to the game should be required to face the same challenge desired by someone else if the game mechanics allow for more options. Changes can be made to allow players to have less of a challenge to meet in these areas without lessening the challenge that HM currently offers, yet they can still be "Elite" in terms of being harder than a normal area for these players.

Clearly, GW's mechanics can allow for multiple levels of challenges since HM came about from the desire to have a more challenging environment, as did the elites. Unfortunately, they are imperfect since the original intent of the game was to have PvP be the challenging environment, and not PvE. But these areas clearly can be too much to overcome for portion of the dedicated playerbase. Since the mechanics are already proven to exist, there's no reason why they also can't be accommodated. Perhaps many of these players simply do not have the time to dedicate to learning these areas properly; perhaps some of the players don't want to "work" to learn to become more skilled at the game, but simply want to be able to "tool" around for fun and not feel excluded for that reason. In a fantasy world designed to give us a few moments of peace from the trials of the real world, we should make every effort to be inclusive and not exclusive. At the very least, we should give the benefit of the doubt to those players who truly desire to find greater challenges in the game, but cannot because the weight of the real world does not allow for it in these areas as they are currently designed.

Hanok

The argument of locking players out based on skills/motivation is flawed to begin with....because Guild Wars is a TEAM based game, not single player. It doesn't matter how good someone is, if the pugs that he/she plays with are not as good, then then he won't be able to complete the areas regardless. So if Anet does not even try to cater to the common denominator, then they're just gonna lock out everyone that isn't lucky enough to be in an active guild, period.

And before someone say "just get a guild, then"...let's just say finding a very active guild that do a specific elite area at the time I want is not an easy task.

It's only good because it's simplistic enough for the common plebs to get doa done in NM. There's shit that's a lot more efficient allowing Doa to be done in a fraction of the time, and in hard mode, that no one is crying about, yet they bitch about something as weak as DwG. Why? because the profiteering douchebags want to nerf something that makes armbraces more accessible, even if it is only usful for being PUGable, rather than actually being good.

You don't seem to have any idea what I was getting at with that post. I was criticizing people who bitch for nerfs to shit that isn't really strong.

So, what you're saying is that "elite areas" should be easy, just because casuals want to play badly and still get through this content? To be honest, elite areas aren't even difficult. PvE in general is easy. There is no excuse whatsoever to dumb it down ever further. You merely have the proper skill bars, and common sense, and the ability to not constantly do retarded shit. As it is, even a lobotomized kid with down's syndrome can do elite areas in normal mode. Thinking it should get even easier says quite a bit about you.


I want obby armor and chaos gloves so I can be a tool just like everyone else. Should it just be handed to me? Of course not. It's just preposterous to think that just because someone wants something it should be handed to them. The effort it takes to complete elite areas in this game is laughable. The only issue is finding people to play with, and making areas piss-easy is going to do jack shit about that.
Yeah, the thing to do for people seeking a greater challenge is to dumb it down to the point where it isn't a challenge, just so it's accessible to them. BRILLIANT!

lol still qqing over this?

seriously if its too gimmicky or easy for you then go in with vengeance and flare or wtf ever your l337 status demands

how about we nerf the people who think the whole gamestate should be changed for everyone just because it does not suit them

i already posted in this thread for an alternative, nobody can or will show up so unless your in a tight group that can wax trench then its all diatribe

That's nice, but I'm not one of those profiteers. I think SF, SY (and a lot of other PvE skills) and consets all need to be whacked to sane levels, but I go further. I don't make exceptions based on economics or accuse others of having ulterior motives to rationalize my opinion. People don't seem to support balance unless they, personally, are negatively affected by something, and that's as terrible as Lex Luthor taking 40 cakes.

Neither do I.
Supporting balance is one thing, but wanting to nerf something that isn't even good is another.

"Destructive was glaive is far too overpowered for normal mode and allows people to do mindless domain of anguish runs with no more skill required than ursan.

needs to be nerfed. "

a bit QQing... many people get their gear and weps by doing DoA sc. Why do you care, if it needs skill in pve or not? Maybe just nerfi it in pvp, but not pve. Skill is used in pvp.

I did get it - I was just actually adding to it because that's usually what you also hear from the people screaming "nerf."

No, I am not saying that. Indeed PvE is fairly simple overall (that's been part of the problem all along - it was never properly realized to be able to have elite areas because PvP was supposed to be the elite/endgame areas with their own levels of learning and training). What I am saying is that since GW can provide options for varying levels of difficulty, which they have done already by adding HM and Elites, then why not do so for those players who don't yet have that ability to complete those areas as is now. I'm not talking about dumbing them down or making them easier in NM or HM, except for my previous suggestion for eliminating DP and the Kick on Wipe mechanics in NM only. This would only be because I assume it would be quicker and take less resources to implement than it would to create a separate "Easy Mode" for these areas.

Nothing about the NM and HM versions of these areas would change, except perhaps to toughen them up if so desired, and of course increase the rewards proportionally for those players who deem such things important. I personally find rewards secondary to my purpose of playing the game in the manner which I find most fun and creating a challenge level of my own choosing, which is why I generally play with less than ideal character builds, and only rudimentary Hero builds. Hence the quote I use occasionally (when I remember and/or the mods don't delete it): "Self-control is a wondrous thing. Just because there's an Easy Button doesn't mean you have to use it." My favorite games to play are the ones that offer the most options for playing. It gives me the chance to really dig in a face a tough challenge when I want one, and also to faceroll levels when I just need some fun and stress relief. Since GW has that capability, I would naturally like to see it implemented.

This isn't handing anything to anybody, although I personally don't care if we did, because that would have no effect on how I play the game, nor have any impact on my self-worth either. As a bonus that would put the Gold Farmers out of business, though. There are plenty of examples of this in single-player games where there are several modes of difficulty for progressing through the game, many of which can be changed for each level/mission or what have you. We see it in sports all the time - there's Single A baseball, Double A, Triple A; Hockey has its farm system, etc. Each one can equate to a higher level difficulty and skill. A player can be "Elite" in Single A, but he still may not have the skill required to be an "Elite" player in the Majors. We would just be doing the same thing for the elite areas - they would be "dumbed down" when compared to NM and HM, but they would still be more difficult than say the Great Northern Wall, Minister Cho's Estate, or Chabek Village.

Hanok

Yet it's used in NM SCs...I don't quite understand how this is ignored. If it's bad, it wouldn't be the meta way to clear an elite area, something else would take its place.

Why "nerf" something that's making people play together, nerf it and some people will probably stop playing, I don't mind people who takes the easy way getting cash flow. Nerf it and people will just find another way to do this, people are actually playing together now. Peace out!

Since when does a 1.5-2 hour run constitute a speed clear? This shit skill only sees play because of its simplicity.

These excuses are getting ridiculous.

Well, my error, but it doesn't matter, it's not the time taken that makes a skill OP or not. Look at what the skill, by itself, does in terms of raw damage and how quickly and cheaply it can be used and reused. This is not complicated.

why exactly it should be nerfed? personally, I think it's a pretty good skill on the way it current is, it has uses on non-DoA clears. its just overused on DoA coz there's no other easymode option

Your excuses against it are also pretty feeble.

/signed.

This is becoming like ursan, just nerf it.

If they nerf this might as well nerf shadowform

Why? Seriously.

Shadow Form:
- Requires timing
- Requires other skills to keep it up (anti-rupt, KD, etc)
- Requires BRAINS in order to use effectivly.
- You aggro the wrong thing, your dead.
- Requires at least some skill.
DwG:
- Pick up and drop
- Requires a keyboard or mouse

In short... DwG takes a lot less skill then Shadow form, and if anybody disagrees, talk to a DoA guild about tanking one of there runs

SF does not require brains to use. all you have to do is get an area you want to farm, take out most spell skills(only touch skills get in the way) and then bring some prot and damdge. Then you just aggro and maintain and its free money from there on. no skill.

DwG.. you have to
A. Have cooperation. without this you have no good build. any idiot can run thsi skill but if its no supported with others its really not that good.
B.Luck. really simply you have to be lucky to have something not kill you before you kill it. without this your essentially screwed and again.. the skill is useless.
So no DwG does not need a nerf if anything its SF based on your agruement.

Ok so, your arguement is... DwG only takes luck and no skill, and SF is easy so nerf it? That doesnt really make sense but ok.. Your also forgetting that SF lets in ALL attacks now right? Get a ranger or warrior and thats GG. SF is not "easy" to run.

thats exactly it and SF stops alot of stuff(Eles, Necros, Smiting monks) from essentially doing anything but wanding you. What does DwG protect you from? nothing but the pure chance that you kill an enemy before it kills you.. like all balanced skilsl do.

All balanced skills eh?

If that were true I could go kill mallyx with flare, before he and his spirits killed me.

I love it when this happens.
Person 1 Posts in a "nerf skill A" thread, agreeing whole-heartedly for it's nerf.
Person 2 responds with "may as well nerf skill B too".

Person 1 then is highly defensive of their favorite skill (skill B) and does not want to see talk about it being nerfed, so produces a counter-argument stating that skill B requires more 'skillz' to use than skill A.

Now the same argument in a slightly different context

Person 1 and Person 2 have had a Traffic Collision, Person 1 was texting on their mobile phone while Person 2 was fiddling with the CD Player.

Person 1 starts condemning Person 2 for not keeping their eyes on the road.
Person 2 then responds stating that Person 1 should not have been texting on their mobile phone.
Person 1 then becomes highly defensive and claims that the text was highly important.

I mean seriously guys, that's what this thread has turned into.. a Traffic Collision... It's not even about the skill anymore, it's just about you guys seeing who can inflate their own ego to outshadow the other people that are heatedly debating their own opinions.

The whole point of what I said is if you want to nerf a skill that requires half a brain you may as well nerf the other skills that also require half a brain. SF is a 5 energy skill that makes half the other classes completely useless against you, but wait lets not stop there, get shield sets, cons and earth enchants and then your invincible against melee with no way to strip it. I've seen real mentally challenged people run perma quite well. Lets face it, SF is still a brain dead skill and unbalanced even after its so called, "nerf". Do you ever see balanced pug teams farming EOTN dungeons? No, because its 8 sins using a no brain method of running through all the mobs to the end boss and spiking him while he sits there looking useless, and did I forget to mention you did this in 25 minutes? Essentially I dont even know why this thread exists. DwG is used in DoA and thats it. SF is used in every dungeon as a solo or as 8 sins speed clearing it.

If you dont want your favorite skill nerfed then dont post in a thread saying another persons favorite skill should be nerfed as well. Both require the same amount of brain power as the other.

Nerf is never a good solution yet it happens all the time. People want to play the game their way. If you nerf their toys they either find some other easy mode trick or leave. The only real skill in this game is in planning. Everything else is timing and twitch factor.

I never understood why people who don't like something try and take it away from others...

In Normal Mode, any high damage AoE skills become no skill and no brain. In fact, unless you're playing a Monk or an interrupter (roles that requires reflex), almost every decent build would become "brainless" once players get used to it. Also, I personally see no difference in spamming DwG and randomly spamming a couple of other skills...for almost every build the "damage dealers" only have to spaming 1-2-3-4 in order, its not that much more difficult.

Nerfing the FotM farm is like playing popamole. The problem is with degenerate PvE areas that boil down to 'do lots AoE damage' and nothing but. Short of a total revamp of high end PvE on the order of the HM update, nothing else to be done is worthwhile. Unfortunately, I highly doubt Anet will be investing that much effort into fixing GW1 in the twilight of its years.