Physical damage should not be 5x stronger than elemental/caster - balance needed

Because I am tired and think what on earth am I doing here.
Because I feel like I'm surrounded by screaming monkeys in a forest, and since I don't want to get banned or insult people, I decided to be quiet and not read the thread.


I am no longer interested in dialogue. As for my monologue, this is how I see this thread:


Me: Pyhsicals do tons more damage
X: Physicals can't do so much damage, just look at all blind and blablabla. I have theorycrafted it perfectly, look at my paper.
Me: Blind in PvE?
X: I saw it on wiki, there are skills that inflict blind, ffs 1121212121!!!! so many, also weakness also hexes! you be wrong lad! Theorycrafting ftw!
Me: No, there's some blindness in Oola's lab and those Nightfall plants, that's about it.
X: Noob! You can't win blind! And Faintheartedness! Therycrafting forever!
Me: With condition removal that your team has, and even without it, melee will do so much more damage anyway. Despite the lack of ideal conditions. Not all conditions are equal for casters as well (ether seals, roaring ethers, various interrupts, vow of silence dervishes..). After vanquishing all 3 campaigns, it is obvious that on average melee does much more damage. Net damage.
X: But there's blind! And all other stuff! Waaaaah!"1212121!!!!#"%$%! How can you not get it? You can't do any damage if there's blind! So casters and melee are balanced in this way.
Me: I agree. Blinded melee does 10% damage which is in total equal to caster who does 100% damage.


Me: Physicals do tons more damage.
Y: And where's proof of that?
Me: *rolleyes* (how about play the game?)


Z: Mesmers are overpowered now
Me: 8 skills please for general PvE
Z: I heard someone did SC of Frostmaw!
Me: 8 skills please for general PvE
Z: Roaring Ether clearly shows mesmers are overpowered!
Me: 8 skills please for general PvE
Z: Ever seen a gimmick speedclear of area x?
Me: 8 skills please for general PvE
Z: It's really good in PvP!
Me: 8 skills please for general PvE
(and this goes on and on forever, it's like talking to a wall)

G: Behold! The iMesmer! OQZDAZkCT0AkAyATP2gIgpiIDA
Me #1: *deep sigh*
Me #2: (when I'm in the mood) So this is overpowered mesmer build? There are mesmer builds that are stronger than that but never mind let's see how it fares vs... say D/W. DW provides 82% permanent with SY damage reduction to other team members, as long as they are in earshot. Mistrust and CoP both antisynergize with Panic, WW depends on luck and that enemy lives 3 seconds (which is an eternity considering how fast DW is killing). In practice WW will not trigger most of the time. Arcane Conundrum is a joke, it's a theorycraft skill which, like WW, shows how slow casters really kill (yes I did actually try this skill and it's bad in general PvE for many reasons). Wandering Eye in itself is a great skill, if it wasn't for overpowered melee whose autoattack does more damage than this skill, and the fact that you're preventing a hit on your team that might be blocked anyway in one way or another which further decreases the value. Second thing is that biting casters a bit and biting melee a bit means that everyone dies bit by bit which is less effective than killing one foe (or group) first and then second afterwards. Known as target focus. So overall we have here a build that offers less protection than D/W, and far less damage, and this is overpowered mesmer build that makes the world tremble? Geez please don't roll D/W you might suffer a heart attack.


Me: Physicals do tons more damage.
T: Suck it up, you should be weak and what I play should be overpowered. It is the order of things.
Me: Whatever.


C: I'm Sceptic. I don't believe you, and your scientific methods are flawed, your data is incomplete, and you should dance around me for ages trying to convince me into something. I will not provide any better alternatives myself. I am Sceptic.
Me: Main characteristic of a sceptic is inability to understand.


S: Melee are overpowered only because of casters.
Me: And why are casters not overpowered because of melee? Ha? It's a team game. A team is likely to consist of casters and melee. If such team composition ends up in melee being overpowered, that's imbalance. It can be intended by design, but it's still overpowered.
S: Blabla. So you see, physicals alone can't do much.
Me: It's a team game. Stop theorycrafting for one second and go play the game. You'll notice around 7 other people/henchmen/heroes with you.


B: QQ more! Play something else! Who cares! Looooozer! $%$%"#! blurp
Me: *beasts*


K: I am not skilled in this game, but I am entitled to opinion. Blablablabla..
Me: Please, just refrain from comments. I don't care about your human rights.


I find your lack of faith disturbing.

The Josip just won the thread.

He pretty much says exactly what I think about all these whiners and random players that think they have to start a thread about something that is not even a real problem. Melee is far superiour than casters, fact, wisper me ingame and I will show you if you don't believe it.

You can vanquish this whole game with an empty skillbar. If you want to do it the easy way, take all spirits there are+minions and go steamroll through any area.

Arcane Conundrum is a theorycraft skill? Lmfao, uninstall OP, you obviously don't know what you are doing on mesmer. I tell you what though...you remember when you first start Factions and Togo tells you in Minister Cho's Estate to wait for the patrol to split (and ball up)? Most things in the game behave that same way now put 2 and 2 together...

Wait, melee is so superior that I can vanquish anywhere in the game with an empty bar, as long as I bring a whole party of casters? Got it.

I've been playing through the campaigns again lately, and there really is much more anti-physical than anti-caster. Anti-caster stuff is generally quite rare while there's almost always at least one (usually more) type of anti-physical/melee per mob.

Tbh OP, I don't really know what you want (that could be because I haven't really read the thread, though ). The only nerfs for physicals that I'm definitely supportive of are an SY nerf, dagger nerf, and scythe/AoHM nerf and the only caster buff I'm definitely supportive of is one for eles' damage.
Really? Well, I guess that settles that.

Ugh. How about you just post pics so we can all flame you for your demonstration?

You lost me. Physicals are so overpowered you can vanquish the whole game by using caster stuff like minions and spirits? Whose side are you on?

I don't quite understand what you are saying in this bit of your monologue. You acknowledge that casters are what make melee overpowered, which is the primary reason why the rest of us have been saying it is ok that melee do more damage (post buffs) than casters. Are you saying that melee should also in some way provide buffs for casters in the same way casters provide buffs for melee? I don't think i understand what you are trying to say here...

Also, blind/block/anti-melee hexes/weakness/snares are pretty common in the game. Typically, it is the caster who removes these conditions or hexes from the physical.

You basically restated everything I said in in my post. I dont know what your getting at. When you point it out, its constuctive, but when I point it out its bashing? I was just trying to say Mesmers are more effective as casters, and if you want to go melee, play a melee character(my opinion). Any caster using a scythe makes me go, WTF? anywho

Anet is well aware of the /D + physicals phenomenon. It sounds like they are already working on it.

But if physicals are so powerful on thier own how come I dont see....

"Warrior LF 7 more physicals to go!"

SC and team builds consisting of all physicals?

I wouldnt call them overpowered, but alot of the pugs I join have at least one melee to soak up damage and tank for the group. Thats called teamwork. So in a sense, yes casters can benefit from having melee, and vice-versa. One doesnt work without the other, thats balance. From the beginning of GW casters and melee have had a great synergy. But, that doesnt stop alot of people from taking an all caster group and steamrolling through HM. The fact is, melee needs casters to survive and deal more than average damage, but casters dont need melee to accomplish the same goal. If anything, casters have the advantage.

Me/E_Panic_Mesmer
Me/E_PvE_Domination_Mesmer
Me/any_PvE_Illusion_Mesmer
Me/any_Keystone_Mesmer

That should get you started.

So to win an arguement, all you have to do is have one person agree with you?

Okay, ill grab my Mesmer, and you can grab any melee character you want. Then we can scrimmage to see who wins. Not fair? ok ill grab my Necro instead.

I would like to see screenshots of people vanquishing an entire campaign with all melee and no skills. But, I'm more likely to see a leprachaun at the end of a rainbow.

I believe you were conceived not out of love; but of ignorace, tears and fail.

So, you are the worthy winner of such:

This is just one example I have to pull out of josips argument. I do agree however that playing melee is more rewarding than playing casters, but your points on mesmer skills are wrong. I somethings think you want the mesmer class to be something besides what it is. And for me I get way more damage on my mesmer in HM pve than I ever could on an ele. I can increase that damage a TON as well. Also keep in mind the mesmer is a support class. The mesmer class is more about team synergy, than self, look at skills like fevered dreams or fragility. The mesmer can cause thousands of damage in miliseconds depending on team synergy.

Now specifically to your skill arguments.
Josip, when you feel like playing a mesmer again and not a warrior or dervish, try putting mistrust and panic on the same bar. You seem to feel they antisynergize, they do not.

Mistrust checks skill activation at both spell start, and spell finish. Which means even if the enemy caster is in the middle of a mob of 1000000 enemies that all have panic on them, and are all screaming "!!". When you cast mistrust on the enemy, and it attempts to begin its spell cast, mistrust will trigger, doing big damage to the mob of 1000000 enemies. The only way panic could have anti synergy with mistrust is if you are trying to use mistrust as a interupt. Personally with a 1-2s cast time on mistrust depending on your fast cast level, I would use mistrust more like I would use diversion, in anticipation.

So you are very wrong, that is something I would consider perfect synergy between two skills, and I view mistrust as one of the strongest "nukes" a mesmer has.

Cry of pain and panic. Cry of pain was designed to be a direct damage nuke for the mesmer class. Its been toned down, but it is still a very excellent nuke. It has two parts the single target interupt, which is next to useless in pve, and the nuke, which is armor ignoring. Panic is a 11s aoe multi interupt hex. Useful, cry of pain is a nuke that needs a hex. Seems to me theres useful synergy there.

WW is useless, your right there. Arcane Conundrum is also terrible, but its good emanage if your team balls enemies.

Illusion magic has some of the most powerful hexes in the game pve wise. like fragility, wandering eye (which in pve is used as a nuke, you dont care about the interupted attack skill) Frustration, which when cast on a mob that has panic on him in a ball of enemies, will cause him to drop instantly.

You might feel casters dont do as well in pve, which is wierd since you play mesmer primary. I've played with your me/d build and I can tell you while its fun, its not the fastest killing build out there. You play a support class, Change your build to add synergy to your team, you should be more concerned with mesmer teambuild. I steamroll pve much faster with panic/frustration combo than you do with mesmer scythe.

I find this funny how you seem to be the most irrationally biased and unreasonable person in this thread.

Bullshit exaggerated statement.

not every class was built to be dps, complaining about a class not designed to dps, but has decent damage is pretty stupid, especially considering that the only thing warriors and sins are able to do well is to do damage, whereas mesmers/eles/necros/monks are designed to perform various functions that cause whatever the team is doing to succeed. Quit seeing things in a stupid, one dimensional, damage is all that counts manner.
The main characteristic of a skeptic is to see through bullshit. Oh, and your scientific methods consist of making up bullshit, as proven by trankle in your necros vs. mesmers thread.

Melee hurt things, casters do support/some damage/healing/protting. if you only care about doing damage, roll melee and stop making bad threads on guru. If you want to play mesmer, stop seeing dps as your one and only goal.


Oh the irony.


Don't even know why i'm responding to this, such an obvious troll.

But they're not.

Why? Because theorycrafting doesn't vanquish areas, fighting vanquishes areas.

The best mesmer builds for general PvE, are in this order:

1. Psychic scythe Me/D
2. AP EVAS spammer
3. Ineptitude


When you say you consider those pvxwiki overpowered, it's in relation to what? They are inferior even to other mesmer builds, and even more to melee builds of others classes that we're talking about.

Vade retro me.



No, this is one of many misconceptions about mesmers. Eles have wards or ER prots/heals, Ritualists splinter and bunch of other stuff, monks tons of stuff, necromancers tons of stuff. These classes have many support skills. How many skills do mesmers cast on allies?

No, mesmers don't support.
Mesmers undermine.



This is another misconception. Mesmers are the worse class when it comes to synergy. Not only do mesmers not have synergy with other team members, but even their best skills have antisynergy. If you decide to synergize mesmer with the group, you're going to dig into secondary profession, for start.

As for 'thousands of damage in miliseconds', that doesn't happen. FD frag mesmer in general PvE will be poor in damage, actually. He has solid effects and that's why some sometimes use it, but damage is poor. Moreover, it's a poor build vs stragglers.

I meant that if the spell doesn't trigger because of Mistrust, the Panic effect doesn't trigger. So you're replacing AoE interrupt with AoE damage. Similiar with CoP.
But wait, you're saying that Mistrust triggers even if spell isn't finished?

That's true, but in practice Mistrust is less useful than it may seem, in general PvE. At least from what I remember when I was experimenting with it. It's even less useful if you're using heroes and henchmen.

CoP is a valuable PvE skills, which costs valuable 10 energy, to do 50 AoE damage and prevent Panic from triggering?
A Psychic scythe ME/D mesmer will cause at least that much damage with autoattack, spammable.
Smite Hex is not a PvE skill, costs 5e, does 70-90 damage, removes hex / requires hex.

And guess how much energy you'll have after spamming Panic and CoP every 10sec. Try it.

I didn't like Frustration. It's expensive single target hex, with conditional damage. And if you're using it with Panic you probably have 2 mesmers in the team
Wandering Eye is very good when part of Ineptitude build and somewhat less good in other builds because of lack of target focus (too lazy to go in details).

Definitely not, but what mesmer build is faster killing in general PvE? Did you use same heroes listed in the thread, customized scythe, and what area did you try it in? Really, if that Panic Mistrust combo works faster for you I'd be willing to try it out, just give me the build. Did you try using both builds with Essence / Red Rock Candy and try to compare? And what heroes do you use with Panic/Frustration?

There's actually more synergy in my Me/D team than mesmer caster team. Besides, I don't change my build to fit Vekk's or Olias's build. They change their builds to fit mine.

And I don't play support class, I play undermine class. I also play whatever builds I find best with that class (or those I find amusing). I don't play what's "proper" and "morally acceptable".

The thing the OP has failed to explain is why Physical damage should not be stronger than caster damage. Guildwars isn't a tank and spank game where the melee is used for nothing but soaking up damage and casters are used to blow things up. The game is designed for warriors to be the main source of DPS for the team, and casters to excel in support, disruption, and movement control roles.

The game shouldn't change because someone wants a profession to be something it isn't. The mesmer is a master of disruption and e-denial. If you don't think those things are useful or you have no interest in doing them, then don't play the mesmer. Casters shouldn't do a warriors job equally to a warrior. They should be worse, and a warrior shouldn't do a casters job equally. Everyone has a specific role. Everyone has had that role for 5 years. Why the OP suddenly thinks these roles are unacceptable is beyond me, other then the fact that the OP is just complaining that their character can't do everything.

i'd like to see video proof of this. download fraps and make us a video.

Working so hard to prove this point.

Ooook, let's start over.

Where do you get off saying that a mesmer should be running damage-only? A primary mesmer playing with its own skill set is support. Period. It shuts down, disrupts and spreads hexes that pressure the enemy. It doesn't kill things, it makes it impossible for the things to do their job well. It is the last profession you take at face value if you want to steamroll. Before you go any further, please explain where you get the idea that this profession should also be spanking enemies like a Sin, on top of its versatile utility in a party.

As for eles? That's been a valid point for a while. They are a bit weak compared to the vast amount of armor-ignoring/penetrating damage out there.

Ritualists? Glaive and SoS.

Necros have a lot of utility as well, they are not primary damage-dealers without gimmicks like Discordway.

Monks are irrelevant to this discussion.

So, really, we're left with "eles need a buff/update". I think most would agree. Every other caster either has power or doesn't apply.

I lol'ed.

Elementalists are fine if they change a couple skills.

I'm fine with mesmers as I can fit in any group except for some speed clears...finally.

Heroes and henchmen don't count as "groups"!

Quoted for the truth

Did you have a point to make somewhere?

OMG JOSIP! Your arrogant and pretentious tone must mean that you're right!11!!!!11!! Now, everyone will pay attention to you and listen to your argument, instead of nerdraging!!!!

Also, WTB High-End Manlyway SC 1,000,000,000e!!!!!!
Things tend to go up in price when they don't exist anymore.

Yea, it's the kind of "truth" that creatures of darkness like. The truth that has no basis in reality.

What is "truth" in his post you quoted?


* That OP didnt state why physical damage should not be stronger?
OP stated that in thread subject already. It's not his problem people have limited comprehension abilities. Balance. That's why. Means nothing to those who don't like it though.

* That GW was designed that warriors are so much better in damage than elementalists and other casters?
False. GW was designed around PvP basis, where much of warriors damage is nullified by block/evade, hexes, conditions. Today, HM shifted balance, AoE scatter too, various buffs made melee even stronger, consumables even more stronger, and pve skills help warriors more than casters. New classes increased the gap as well.
The gap that exists today is not a result of intended game design. It's a byproduct of some other tweaks.

* "Everyone has had a role for past 5 years"
False. Mesmers had no role for years until now. Anything they could do, someone else could do better. I'm talking about PvE of course, this is PvE thread.

* "OP is complaining he can't do everything"
Quoted for truth? What truth? Where did I complain I can't do everything? The thread is about physical damage being overpowered. Lowering this kind of damage would balance the game. What does this have to do with my mesmer? Did I say my mesmer needs to be as good in melee as A/D? Where? Did I say mesmer needs buff? Where? Truth. Heh.

* "Casters shouldn't do a warriors job equally to a warrior."
But warrior can do casters job? In official description of professions, it says elementalists can do most damage in a single strike. They can't, melee can. Truth? Hah.

* He says "Everyone has a specific role." And warriors role is dealing damage. Casters should all be support. So where's specific role if they are all support? Where's specific role of eles if they are not allowed to do balanced damage with different kind/style of damage? Where's balanced role if eles can either be more powerful heal prots than a monk, or a pitiful damage dealer when compared to a warrior? If there's different kind of balanced support, there can be different kinds of balanced damage dealing. It's so obvious and so simple. That's why there are damage types in the game, and that's why some creatures are more vulnerable to specific types of damage. To add flavor. Instead there would be "damage" and that's it. But it's meant for the player to calculate what works better and where. That's game design. It's not like warriors were designed as pure damage dealers. They have entire line for support. They also have disruption skills.

* "The game shouldn't change because someone wants a profession to be something it isn't"
Truth? Is it? The game is changing all the time when someone who can influence change wants a profession to be something it isn't. When someone wants eles to be better heal prots than monks, there's a change. When someone wants mesmers to be more nukers (CoP prenerf) because he's out of ideas how to fast-fix mesmers - game changes with profession role. When someone sees people complain about assassins being fragile but powerful damage dealers, they are changed into immortals and game changes.




And so time draws nigh when creatures of darkness and their "truths" will perish. Amen.

Just for giggles, I made my mesmer with the Me/D build and ran out to master of damage. I did around 46 damage a second and had trouble maintaining energy. Then I took an energy surge build and did 41 damage per second. With out heros, not much of a difference. I know its not a really fair test, but it just goes to show what can be done for consistantly.

What was that about physicals being overpowered?

Sure I could take heros to bond me and make me more powerful, but I can also take Discord, or 2 SF nukers and SoS hero. So same diff, I dont see what all the fuss is about.

I shouldn't get involved in this argument again, but ...

Blind / block / antimelee hexes / weakness / snares can all be removed by the appropriate skill. Yes it is the caster who removes these conditions and hexes from the physical. In this the caster supports physical damage. However, caster damage can generally not be buffed. There are a few precious skills that can do it, but there are so few: By Ural's Hammer (self-buff), Intensity (self-buff, difficult to upkeep), EBSoH, Stolen Speed, and ... ?

If ER is so powerful how come I generally never see anyone going "GLF ER Ele to go!"?

Also see this post: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...8&postcount=37

Can you beat those times with a caster primary?

You do realize that all four of those builds are pretty bad -

Panic is a good skill, but it is mainly a defensive one. In teams including heroes / henchmen, you should not use it as a player because the player, with access to PvE skills, should always take an offensive role. In teams with mainly players, you should not take Panic either because you simply roll through the area with big damage.

The second build is better, but still weak. VoR is pretty bad because it's a reactive hex. So is Empathy. Energy Surge does "solid AoE damage", or so the page claims, but then the page author obviously hasn't seen Scythe-users hitting for 100s or above on autoattacks. Cry of Pain has been nerfed, and although it's still strong it's not what it used to be.

The third build is terrible. Falls into the same category as the first, except defensively it's outdone by Aegis, and offensively it's outdone by Cry of Pain. Clumsiness and Wandering Eye are both reactive hexes, and reactive hexes aren't very good in PvE.

The fourth build is also terrible. Falls into the same category as the first, low damage, questionable defensive value, blah blah blah.

If you use any of these four builds, it is not because they are good or even because they are the best options available to you, but because it's something you want to do for fun. If you use variants of those builds on heroes, it's because you've run out of other, superior options. Mesmers are weak in PvE. Sad fact.

Anyway best player Mesmer build in PvE would probably go along these lines:

"You Move Like A Dwarf!" | "Finish Him!" | Auspicious Incantation | Cry of Pain | Assassin's Promise | Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support | Arcane Echo | Optional

The thing everyone else has failed to explain is why physical damage should be stronger than caster damage. Lol. This matter always comes about when someone claims they can read the developer's mind to the point that they know what the game was "supposed" to be like, and make catch-all statements like "Guildwars isn't a tank and spank game". Where's your proof? Don't say that "but that's the way Guildwars has been since the beginning; Warriors have always been the damage-dealing class". Maybe, but it doesn't exclude the possibility that the developers didn't intend Warriors to be the damage-dealing class, but it accidentally happened.

Anyway I can show you proof why physical damage should not be stronger than caster damage. See:

http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/pr.../elementalist/

'With magic derived from the very foundations of nature itself, Elementalists can inflict more damage in a single strike than any other profession.'

Or so they're supposed to be able to. Unfortunately, they can't.

They should, because damage is what wins PvE. You cannot clear areas without dealing damage. The only other requirement in addition to dealing damage is staying alive. Everything else is luxury.

Now if Mesmer support were a great asset in staying alive, they wouldn't be so bad a class. Unfortunately, it isn't the case. Interrupts, Panic, shutdown, et cetera - they are all either not needed or outdone by pure heals and damage absorption. The same reasoning applies to why Earth Elementalists are generally bad. The only groups who'd use Earth Elementalists are those where people played for fun and didn't care how efficiently they do something.

And here's the proof of the pudding. You have three hero slots. Do you ever dedicate one of those hero slots to a Mesmer? When do you use a Mesmer anyway? I'll tell you my experience - the Mesmer hero, although a useful one, is only ever used when I can't use a MM (or if it's required, e.g. Melonni is required for Nundu Bay).

EDIT: @Above - I can bring an E/W Sword build against the MoD, without any heroes, and top 120 DPS. What does that say about Mesmer damage, hm?

Lolwut? Creatures of darkness? Uh... ok then. anyway...

The fact is that not every class should have the same strengths. That would take away all differentiation among professions., which is a bad thing. You can dispute this fact all you want but that won't make it any less true. While balance is good, there are other ways to balance that don't involve turning all classes into direct damage classes.

Mesmer have always been the best class at disruption or interruption, so you can't say that mesmers didn't have their strength.

I think just about everyone agrees that eles need a buff to their armor penetration abilities. That does mean they need their damage buffed 5x as the title to this thread suggests.

I'm not quite sure what's up with all this " time draws nigh" and "creatures of darkness" talk.

Edit: jeydre, that build of yours is pretty leet with those 4 pve skills. Wish I could do that.

Anyway, I am trying to say that I acknowledge that masters are generally weaker offensive than physical with master buffs. I don't see anything wrong with this though.

basically, he believes we are evil beings and he's the lone white knight that's gonna slay us all.

I'm glad you wrote this.

My hero has Discord and the other has SoS. You're mistaken when you think that hero support for melee consists of 8 skills on each hero used to buff melee to do decent damage.

Your tests on Isle of Nameless are also so flawed. This is obvious to anyone with decent skill who played melee in this game but I will not waste time explaining.


But I am glad you wrote this, because I see with what incompetence I have to struggle and wrestle with here.

The Gods themselves would contend in vain.



As was said - those who have eyes see and those who dunnot don't see. And as I am no missionary but a sadist, I'll let you enjoy your blindness and rejoice in it while you can.

Because you're not paying attention and many groups are open to one even if they're wording a healer as monk.

Jeydra is apparently trying to trap people into posting that mesmers are strong in PvE, which I'd say they now are.

Well this has degenerated eh? We're talking about Catnarok now?

.

Yup, the Josip's gonna slay us with his righteous fury.

The master of damage is as low armored as you'll find in general pve, so from that damage, it would only get wrse, and of course you won't bother explaining, because you're just talking out of your ass. But i have to hand it to you, you're the most creative troll on these here forums.

Yes - that's why something along those lines. I don't know the specifics.

I suppose it's up to you to decide whether or not physical damage being significantly (it's certainly not 5x; it's closer to 2-3x) stronger than caster damage is balanced. Just don't pretend that it's not the case.

Oh, allow me. Melee relies on PvE skills (titles) to buff their damage. That isn't a flaw itself, everyone has R12 allegiance and should therefore take a scythe. Oh, don't forget Asuran Scan, too.

But what about Intensi...oh. Never mind.

after re-reading this thread there some things that just have to be asked.

1. whats your complete Me/D build that you insist, without proof, can 2 hit kill HM enemy.
2. whats your party makeup and builds of Hero's.
3. are you using any type of consumables
4. whats the stats on your equipment, weapon and armor. yes i know base armor is 60 for a mesmer but what insignias and runes are being used.

with the history of this game you just cant come into a fansite forum and complain how imbalanced things are without proof and expect change. after seeing how Anet handles the game the last 5 years, just making a statement like your opening post will get nowhere other then the type of replies this thread has received so far. if your using consumables and a skill bar with the max of 3 PvE skills and your party is built to support you in a way that you do more damage because of it, then your arguement or statement that physicals are over powered is a failure. all you have done is come up with a build that abuses 2 weaknesses of GuildWars, static mobs that spawn the same all the time with the same skill bars. with all the availible skills in the game its not hard to come up with builds that abuse the game in way Anet never intended or expected to happen.

1. Making every class equal in filling every role in the game does not equal balance. Balance would be taking all playstyles and making them feasible. Basically, it isn't about allowing a mesmer to do everything, but for making the things it can do useful.

2. Yes Guild Wars was designed around PvP, and in PvP Warriors are the best source of constant DPS, and mesmers are used for e-denial and shutdown.

3. Again, mesmers have always had a role. Its called E-denial and shutdown. Just because people didn't use them in PvE didn't mean they didn't have a role. It just means no one valued its role as highly as others. In PvP the mesmer was always used and always very effective.

4. You want melee damage toned down so that caster damage is equal to it, thus allowing your character to be equal to the warrior in DPS. It doesn't matter how the damage is dealt, the fact is you want the role of a damage dealer on a class who doesn't fit that role. Therefore you are complaining about not being able to do something as well as another class, despite that something being that classes specialty and not yours.

5. Warriors can't do a casters job nearly as well as the classes that are intended for that class. A warrior has movement control through KD's, but can never control movement as efficiently as a water ele can. A warrior can not shutdown as easily as a ranger or a mesmer can. A warrior can not heal or prot like a monk can. A warrior can not chain hexes like a Necromancer can. And so on. Every class has something it excels at. The fact that not every class is equal in every role makes every class unique. And the example you used is a bad one considering an Ele can do more damage in a single strike than a warrior can. Rodgorts and Lightning Orb are two skills that would count as a single strike and do more damage than pretty much all warrior single strikes Besides maybe Eviscerate because of the Deep Wound. The warriors specialty comes from constant DPS which an ele can't match.

6. Everyone does have a specific role and there are many roles under the "Category" of support. A water ele can control movement by use of snares. An Air ele can assist on spikes with high damage armor penetration skills like Lightning orb and blind warriors greatly decreasing their DPS. A fire ele can apply constant support damage through use of burning and AoE attacks. An Earth ele can assist by putting up Wards to slow characters or cause mass blocking, or can cause weakness, KD, and various other things. Mesmers can disrupt casters by use of interrupts, skills like diversion, and they can disrupt melee with skills like ineptitude and clumsiness. They have e-denial capabilities with skills like E-surge, E-burn, and others. There is no reason for me to go on because anyone with some knowledge of the game can figure out which professions fit what niche the best.

7. No that is definitely not how skill changes work. The game is changed when someone with a very good grasp of how the game works can prove how certain skills are too powerful and causing problems within the game, and going into great detail about why the current state is negative for the game, and propose a change with a lot of long thought out detail on how to appropriately change the skill and how the game will react to the change of the skill. 9 out of 10 times, A.net completely ignores even the best suggestions and just does what they feel like doing, or what they think will make the majority happy and continue playing the game and buying new products they offer. They hardly ever listen to anyone's suggestion and if they do, it is because that person has convinced them that without a reasonable doubt that the change will have a positive impact on game play.

You do realize that support is largely useless in PvE yes? In that then, by your own argument Mesmers aren't balanced (or Elementalists, for that matter).

Completely wrong. You need to get your facts right. There is absolutely no way that an Elementalist can hit more damage in a single strike than a Warrior can in HM. An Elementalist might hit 250++ at most. Compare this post:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...9&postcount=93

Even if you argue that it was holy damage vs. undead and divide by two, the Assassin still did more damage in a single strike. Sure, that was done by an Assassin, but do you want me to show you a screenshot where a Warrior hits 500 damage x2 with Sun and Moon Slash?

Giving casters damage of melees with the support they already have is the opposite of balance.

Because you don't go in ToA enough. Outside of ToA they're fairly rare, but still powerful (except in areas with heavy enchant removal, but those are fairly rare, too).
Note that there is one physical and 7 casters. This just shows that casters' supporting abilities are overpowered.

Physicals are just vessels through which casters' overpoweredness flows. Though physicals still do have OP stuff like scythes and daggers, which will/should be nerfed.
Because having all the damage and supporting ability in casters would make physicals useless.

It also says rangers can use nature rituals to hinder enemies, but they all hurt the team more than the enemy. It also says they can 'draw on the power of the wilderness to heal and assist allies in battle,' but a wilderness survival ranger won't be assisting anyone except the mobs. It also says they get the most out of ranged weapons, but bows suck. It also says rangers are called upon to pull targets, which is just loltarded.

Interrupting a 200 damage nuke is equal to healing for 200 damage times however many party members would've been hit. Shutting down a monk is equal to doing however much damage that monk would've healed for.

Mesmers heal and deal damage indirectly.

Also, if mesmers get another buff before rangers get one, I'll burn down Anet's HQ.
Earth eles are commonly used for warding.
Necros being OP doesn't mean mesmers suck; it means necros are OP.

Also, when's the last time you used a ranger hero?

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Okay, buff eles. I'm pretty sure almost everyone on this forum agrees eles could use a damage buff.

Since they have a role now, what the hell is this thread for? Not everything is meant for damage.

Also, rangers and dervs still don't have a role. Just sayin'.
See second response up.

So, this thread was originally about casters being underpowered, people pointed out why you were wrong, and now you're saying, "b-but... what about eles!?" since they're the only caster class that needs a buff, and you're still acting like you've been right all along?

If this thread was only supposed to be about eles, you should have made that clear in the OP and title. There would be quite a bit less arguing if you had.

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Misc. Notes:
1. Sorry for all the random ranger comments. Somebody's gotta make 'em.
2. @Josip Your avatar always made me think you were a girl.
3. Why do you guys want to turn mesmers into a brainless nuking class? If you really like mesmers, you should be happy that they're useful and their unique playstyle hasn't been forsaken.

I get along just fine in PvE with mesmers and eles especially after the update. But I never said the game was in balance anyways, just what balance actually was. The game has never been in balance. A.net has a very bad track record on balancing. I've always been extremely critical on their ability to properly balance this game. Their performance has been absolutely terrible to put it bluntly.

Considering the OP's sentence that I was basing my point on was a quote about a certain class by the developers, I was under the assumption that the quote was made prior to prophecies as a description for the classes and what they would be able to do. In that time there wasn't Hard mode, and there weren't assassins, so I was basing my point off skills available then and classes available then. If the quote was from a more recent time when Hard mode was introduced, then yes I completely agree with you. If my assumption was correct and it was from prophecies days, then no I think my point still stands.

Ugh.

If you say so. Nerf the supporting abilities if you think that's best - Asuran Scan, Strength of Honour, For Great Justice, et cetera. If you do that you narrow the gap between physical damage and caster damage. Fair enough. You address the OP's concern as well.

And your point is? That ANet is loltarded? Whether ANet is loltarded or not doesn't change the discussion at hand because the manuscripts are still the closest we have to seeing how the game was intended to be.

For the first - no it's not. An interrupted 200 damage nuke makes a world of difference only if it's what keeps you from wiping. If you do not wipe regardless of whether the 200 damage nuke hits, then the interrupt does essentially nothing. And let me say that there are a lot of methods to keep the 200 damage nuke from wiping your party, without relying on interrupts. In fact interrupts are rather fragile a form of party defense; you can't keep all the Rodgort's Invocations away at the same time.

For the other - there are so many more powerful ways to shut down a Monk than relying on a Mesmer. The simplest and most obvious way is to overload the Monk with damage. Remember, by using a Mesmer and forgoing straight damage your damage output will necessarily be less. If you can hit the Monk for 300 damage a strike, you do not need the so-called "shutdown" that a Mesmer provides. Other alternatives - use skills that not only shut down the Monk, but also deal damage. Skills like "You Move Like A Dwarf!" or Great Dwarf Weapon can completely shut down a Monk and deal damage with it.

You can argue that Mesmers heal and deal damage indirectly, but you cannot argue that they are anywhere near comparable to other options (outside of SCs, at least). So long as they are inferior then, they are weak.

Never. They're all terrible. The only heroes I use are Necros, Ritualists and (rarely) Monks / Paragons / Mesmers. Necros and Ritualists are head and shoulders above all other options for caster primaries right now. I don't see your point however.

PS: Yes Earth Elementalists are commonly used for warding. Warriors are commonly used for Defy Pain tanking as well. I don't see your point.

I don't doubt that you can clear HM with Elementalists and Mesmers. It doesn't matter however. I can clear almost all of HM with an empty skill bar. That doesn't make empty skill bars balanced, however. Don't make the "but I can do this with this therefore this isn't underpowered" argument. It's silly.

Also if you agree the game was designed so that Elementalists can deal the most damage in a single strike, then I rest my case.

PS: Mesmers deal the most damage in a single strike right now, who would've thought?

That is not what "balance" means. Your entire argument stems from this initial incorrect definition of "balance", which is why you're wrong. End of thread.

Ugh, indeed.

Since physicals have very little support, nerfing their damage too much would just lead to their abandonment.

That was to show how manuscripts are outdated and not really applicable to the game anymore... Just kidding, it was a complaint about rangers.

But kind of the first thing, too.

You can with Panic. Those silly little mobs love balling up and interrupting each other.

The usefulness of interrupting a nuke is dependent on the difficulty of the area. If you're in NKP, interrupting an imp probably isn't worth your time and beating everything with a stick is obviously faster. But, in a more difficult area, not interrupting those nukers could easily lead to some deaths or at least make it much more difficult on your backline.

Mesmers are bad in easy areas, but those don't really matter.

Consistent interruption is faster than trying to power through heals/prot in that situation (well, depending on the area. Once again, mesmers' importance increases as difficulty increases).

Also, since monks are almost always standing next to some other casters, using something like Panic or even PI can easily prevent damage and deal it at the same time.

Mesmers are still more reliable and they can shutdown many targets at once, even when H/Hing.

This is true (well, not really YMLaD). I was thinking with an H/H mindset, so I was ignoring things like GDW. A mes would still be more reliable, though.

My point was to disprove your point. You tried to support the idea that mesmers are bad by stating how no one uses mesmer heroes, but that doesn't actually prove anything other than necros and rits are OP.

You said earth eles are bad. I said they aren't.

Warding is good still, right?

Anyways, most of your arguments seem to be based around mesmers not being able to clear easy areas as fast as physicals. Shutdown is quite helpful in hard areas.

Also, I'd still like an answer to this: Why do you guys want to turn mesmers into a brainless nuking class? If you really like mesmers, you should be happy that they're useful and their unique playstyle hasn't been forsaken.

The point I was trying to make is that 3 (pve) skills can make a prof do insane amount of dps. Me/d can outdamage most caster builds (aside from AP, SoS, and MoP) by simply spamming 3 skills, and PI will shutdown. Heros will nullify most bonuses that actual melee chars have (armor/damage reduction). Why bother playing mesmer caster when you can just go melee and be more effective?

I think The Josip was trying to point out that the damage bonus that pve skills offer are way too strong when stacked. If I misread your post then I apologize.


Josip's Me/D's thread is here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10442017.html