NEWS FLASH: ANET puts NAIL in PvP Coffin...

There will be a lot of people looking for a guild when the game releases. Some of them will be experienced, some of them wont. If there is no easy way to quantify that experience then it is more likely to be evenly distributed, having greater benefit. It's that simple.

Using the HoM calculator as a qualifier to get into a PvP guild?

Hahahahahaha.

No really. Ensign applied to be in my guild. He only had 2/50 so we rejected him.

Guild looking for gwamm and champion of the gods.

Neither of those things have any bearing on PvP at all. Zero. In fact, I'd be tempted to discriminate against anyone with GWAMM and Champion of the Gods, for wasting time when they should have been PvPing.

Well if you want to be pvp specific like I said the HoM calculator will handle that, its not much of a far shot when people in gw1 already have guild requirements of being a r3 gladiator or a r6 hero and in order to get an achievement in the HoM you need r3 glad and r6 hero. So people do a quick check by searching your name to see if you have the achievements. Simple.

Yet many of the older or more dedicated PvP players probably wont bother with the HoM at all, because it's just trivial, shiny PvE loot. Many may even lack the capacity to get to it.

This line of conversation really is quite futile.

So in the end it serves as a form of proof, by all means you could take someones word on it and be left with doubt. The dedicated pvp players will probably associate with other dedicated pvp players anyways giving them credibility when the time comes.

Admittedly, the HoM "rewards" can be percieved as valueless. However, the POINT is that they ARE offered.

The intrisic desire for "old time" PvP players or "players new to" PvP CAN be stimulated via incentives provided by ANET. Everyone remember when the "PvP venue" named JQ was a ghost town? ANET created incentive to play that venue by increasing rewards. Of course those rewards were not only associated with PvP, but the point is that ANET can influence a segment of the GW player base to play certain areas of the game - like other PvP. They only need to choose those incentives (market testing/survey) and implement the "rewards". If you build it, people will come...

The crux of the OP is that it's clear that ANET would prefer the player base to focus on PvE. That's why the HoM only has ONE PvP title.

Off topic: Obviously anyone with enough in-game $ (PvP selling or PvE drops) can buy all the titles required for maxing HoM "rewards" (via buying runs, items, etc...) so that's really incidental to the way ANET structured the HoM "rewards". ANET allowed flexiblity in the structure so as to let players earn those rewards in multiple ways.

The number of people who bother to check an applicants HoM calculator to see if they have checked in any Guild Wars PvP titles, and give that any credence, will be minuscule.

The danger comes when you legitimize it. If ArenaNet carried over the PvP titles to Guild Wars 2 it would be akin to saying 'these are a relevant measure of skill', and it would become a common factor for discrimination. That's bad for two reasons:

1) They are only very, very loosely a measure of skill. The majority of people who farmed title points did so with cheesy builds that took zero skill. Competitive players didn't play for titles.

2) It would create an unhealthy division between experienced and inexperienced players. This causes stagnation, no good for anybody.

That's great, but I disagree. ArenaNet built a HoM catering to PvE players because there is very little (perhaps nothing) you can offer PvP players that isn't damaging to the game for reasons described above.

And are you hereby declaring the larger part of the community will use common sense?

Just recently the new way of telling someone is experience in UWSC is showing their stones, or rocks whatever. The system is completely ludicrous, yet it got implemented by the playerbase itself.

What's been said about using the HoM was way of indicating GW experience (PvP or not) seems a very real scenario. People, in general, are stupid, and they will use stupid methods to try to create guilds with the least amount of stupid people as possible (ironically).

And as also said before, you can look up the PvP titles from another player (no?). Many old-school players, probably like you yourself, won't even have the HoM filled, but all these "new" GW2 players won't know that, so for all they know HoM is an indication of being good at PvP.

As a matter of fact, when any new GW2 guild forms (consisting out of "new" players, ones who didn't play GW1), HoM would be the ONLY reference they have, and a fair amount will use it to see what kind of experience the player has.

Well since people already take the time to check titles now I'll disagree with you on that.

I see what you're saying but are you denying gw2 pvp won't eventually succumb to title discrimination and history will repeat itself, I don't take anets view on skill as law and the people objecting to the HoM reward structure don't either.

People seem to forget that before the pay-to-use Hall of heroes chest was made aka the zaishen chest, people went to the Hall of heroes chest for great weapons skins and rare ghostly mini but as time went on pve expanded and pvp stayed the same, that's what made it stagnant.

I think the guild community moreso will divide itself into groups similar to GW1.

1: Joe Average who doesn't join a guild

2:The average happy go lucky PvE guild with no alliance

3:The en-mass alliances with a mixture of everything

4:The high end(as such)PvE alliances similar to a lot of the title hunting/speedclear/elite area guilds in existence.

5:The 50/50 PvE alliances intertwined with PvP guilds which go hand in hand

6: The GvG only guilds

7:The HA only guilds

8: Mixed PvP interest guilds

I can really only see any sort of /HOM <player name> use from 4 onwards so there is still plenty of room for Average Joe to find a guild and fit in. But where you have titles you will have discrimination,it's a sad fact and has even been happening in PvE since NF+EOTN were released.

PvEr's unknowingly discriminate against PvP players who have low ranks(asuran,norn,kurzick,LB,Vanguard) because they play primarily PvP and in the same instance PvPr's imo have every right to reject the A/any narutards of the PvE world for not having bambi or x PvP rank.

It will never end unless everyone is made equal but I can't think of any solution of making that possible without sh*tting all over everyone,So we might as well just get on with it..

Actually, NF happened. Due to the flood of extremely overpowered offensive and defensive skills that Anet did not fix fast enough, many high end players left. The lack of another world championship and three fun seasons in a row did not help matters, either.

Also, 6v6 Tombs.

I'm not saying that you are completely incorrect, but the release of NF was most likely a larger detriment to the PvP community than the Zaishen chest (which came along quite a bit later).

1) You are assuming that gw2 will have a better system to measure "skill", I seriously doubt that, but it does not matter at this point because we don't know, in fact we know very little about gw2 pvp.

2) ??? Any division between skilled and unskilled players is healthy. If you meant gw1 experience than that will happen only if the new system is as bad as the old one. If it is better, nobody would bother to look at your gw1 accomplishments, no matter what that is.

Any kind of "connect" between gw1 and 2 is primarily a marketing tool to pull in the old players into gw2. What bothers me is that anet does not feel the need to do that with the pvp community.

I'm assuming that GW2 will have a much better system for pretty much anything, given that this is ArenaNet's second attempt.

Even if it doesn't, we'll always have the standard methods of measuring a player in a competitive game: Reputation and past performance. That, for many reasons would be far preferable to the current silly, arbitrary, grind friendly title system.

Well, no, it's not.

Oh I wasn't saying the zaishen chest was the largest detriment, I was responding to his post regarding there was nothing the HoM could reward a pvp player with.
Look based rewards do matter to pvp players, if only the reward point system was better so when you buy an armor set it stays unlocked, instead of resorting to repurchasing weapons/armor.

Aesthetics mean very little to competitive players. It's a nice little bonus to be able to unlock some cool looking gear perhaps, but there are many far more important factors.

Where's the "Thank You" button? Cuz this forum needs one for posts like this.
I love PvP, I've spent more time PvP'ing in other games than I've spent PvE'ing in this one. But this post encapsulates the biggest reasons I'll never go beyond a few LuLz-outings in JQ/FA.**


** ...though I'll admit I did try and did enjoy the mental-exercise of Codex... with the reverse edge that I absolutely hated the matching system.

That's because those titles are from the game you're playing right now. Nobody will care about your achievements in a game vastly different (only linked in name) that came out over 5 years ago.

Derp derp derp. You could have made that logical leap yourself, you know?

Were talking about organized pvp, its either going to stay the same or become unorganized and since guilds with gwamm and 50/50 are going to happen its not a long shot, pvp guilds basing performance on you're past gw1 experiences during the start of gw2 is a definite.

lol I'll let you get back to that.

>you're

Mk, organized pvp guilds looking at performance in a game that doesn't resemble GW2s gameplay at all. I'm sorry, that's like basing your invites on the player's gamerscore on xbox live (for the slow of wit, total bull).
Of course there will be cliques but judging on behalf of outdated stats (that aren't even relevant anymore) won't happen aside from some excentric guilds.

For a real world example look at HoN/DotA. HoN is almost a carbon copy of DotA yet the dota vets are staying in dota and the hon professional gamers are unknown in the dota scene. I predict this will happen with GW: real high end guilds will stick to GW1 pvp because they mastered it while a completely new pvp scene will grow in GW2.
Pro gaming doesn't like change, after all.

Do you think world vs world is going to be the only pvp in gw2? There is obviously going to be some type pvp where you pick your own team, that type of pvp will reward you with a title, people will want higher title people on there teams. There's going to be skills, there will be builds, and some professions will be stronger than others, so isn't that so different from gw1?

Yeah that's GW1 alright. And WoW, EQ1, EQ2...

Quote: Originally Posted by doomfodder
The crux of the OP is that it's clear that ANET would prefer the player base to focus on PvE. That's why the HoM only has ONE PvP title.

Interesting conclusion – “damaging to the game”.
IMHO not every solution is win-win. In fact most solutions act like a double edged sword (to continue with metaphors).

It reasonable to concede that “competitive players didn’t play for titles” (at least some of em). Also it’s reasonable to concede that “stagnation isn’t good for anybody” (paraphrased from quote). ANET may well have considered “player’s psyche” when designing the HoM Gw2 “rewards”. However if ANET chose to use the HoM to incent players to play PvP (even some small amount), it is also reasonable to think that the benefits of a larger PvP player base in GW1 balances the “damage to the game” on players psyche for GW2.

pvpers shouldnt care about some reskins of weapons
if you care about the reskins/titles you should have done more pve


end of discussion

What makes you think that experienced players moving over from GW2 won't prefer to play with each other anyway? It's not like everyone is switching anonymously.

>eccentric

Also, your analogy is terrible.

What makes you think PvPers should care less about skins than pvers? Either way it's arbitrary vanity, just as useless to either. Your point is moot.

pvpers played years with no skins in sight and they didn't whine

Because the vast majority have fallen out of touch with other players over the years, and will be quite happy to mix it up with some new people. Sure, some will gravitate back together, but there will be a fair amount of new blood in there too.

One thing you, and others, seem to be forgetting is that the competitive community now is a tiny, pathetic fraction of what it has been in the past. It's not like the people playing now will move over in their various Guilds, and that will be it for the competitive community.

His analogy was pretty good, actually.

Everyone is a newbie in GW2. Sure you'll carry over some friends but only a fool would think those old friends will be the only contacts you'll have.


Argumentum ad "I'm right and you're not!!"
0/10 do not pass start do not collect $200.

Save the whole "everyone has the same skills, traits, weapons, and armor" bit...

Whereas everyone is newb, not everyone will be bad. Experience and skill are 2 different thing, and whereas GW2 will reset the experience, the skill won't.

Also, some people are acting as Guild Wars 2 will be a completely different game, it won't. It will be improved, but the engine has stayed the same (but with a Z-axis now), and going by the many Gamescon movies, the gameplay has stayed roughly the same. Simply call it Guild Wars 3D...

This results in people who played GW having an edge over people who didn't play GW, which is only natural, concidering some of us have been "loyal" to ANet for 5 years.

And even on a deeper level, the people who come from GW will be devided in 2 groups, the bad players, and the good ones. The good ones will be the "smart" players (not necessarily high titled ones), the players who learn fast, and who understand Guild Wars and it's mechanics. Because it is those players who will form guilds, form teams, form metas and ultimately be the new top tier in both PvE and PvP.

I concider myself a very experienced player who knows Guild Wars through and through. When GW2 comes out, I'll have a major advantage over (most) other people in that I know exactly where the game comes from, and I can make logical links between the game. (For example, if the weapon damage stayed roughly the same, I'll know that warriors will do the most raw DPS, and that off those, Hammer would do the most the different weapons) Surely, I'll have to learn much new stuff, but the base I have is as broad as it gets, and it will put me above other players quickly.

When I'm going to play GW2 PvP, ideally, I'dd have (7, 11, whatever number) players at around my skill level, or atleast high enough to be thaught quickly. I, aswell as just about every other player who takes PvP serious, will transfer his GW friendlist to GW2, and recruit people based on that list.

Or do you think you have a valid chance of getting recruited by Rawr GW2 Edition [rawr] or [EviL] (In the off chance they'll play GW2 aswell) or whatever top guild (be it GvG or HA) you can think off now. You won't, despite what many people claim here on these forums. (I know you don't specifically want to get recruited, but it was a general example)

Even PvE guilds are already organizing their allianced for the cross-over to GW2.

The first option is always going to be playing with people you know. I'm not saying that new people won't be able to play, but experienced players will have a leg up on the PvP social structure no matter what.

No, it's not.

Being a competent PvPer in Guild Wars generally means that you have attributes making you suited to it - dedication, awareness, capacity for teamwork, receptiveness to criticism, ability to adapt tactics on the fly, and above all, a desire to improve. Even if the gameplay in Guild Wars 2 is completely different, it's players with those attributes who will rise to the top.

Having an astronomical gamerscore does mean that you're good at gaming, to be sure, but it translates a lot less directly to PvP success.

correct. A better analogy would have been players moving on from Call of duty modern warfare to Call of duty modern warfare 2. It may be a new game, but the same attributes that made you good at the first, made you good at the second. The gameplay will be different, but the attributes that made players successful will stay the same. There is a reason some people have been able to rise to the top while others stayed at the bottom. And experience isn't it because I know plenty of people who have played well over 1000 GvG's and never cracked champ range. Believe it or not, there are intangible skills every great player possesses. That's why I could never hope to be as good a warrior as Chiizu or as good a ranger as champ. No matter how much I learn, or how much I play I'll never have the instincts those guys have.

PvE player here, please don't hate me. I noticed that several years ago, that it was really imbalanced. When the HoH no longer really decided anything at all.. the developers have been trying to please the pve players as much as possible because sadly they figure that's where the money is. PvE players are more likely to spend more money on the game- look at all the stuff that's crammed in the in game store now. I just got back after a couple of years with no internet, and now you can get costumes- but you have to buy them. Not even with a stack of ecto's or something, they want straight money.

I think anet's in trouble and trying to stay afloat, so they're thinking with their wallet. It's sad. I don't like PvP, but friends of mine do.. And actually, I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet or not but in order to get 3 points for GW2 you'll probably be getting an influx of PvE players in RA or something. I know I will. Who knows, maybe I'll learn to like it. The Gods know I don't really like putting up with the drama between luxons and kurzicks..

I just got back after about 18 months and I was surprised to see that the updates page wasn't flooded with stuff like it used to be. There used to be almost daily updates of skills, if not daily. I remember when they were finally intelligent enough to split it between PvE and PvP skills so both sides could be happy and it wouldn't be a constant tug of war.

Personally, I can't stand the people in AB. When for a short time I tried out pvp, I found that at least back then people were even worse. I understand it's all a very competitive environment, but it's still a game. I don't see why people have to be so serious about it. The other day I was told I am apparently a noob for liking and playing my mesmer. Some guy thought they should be banned from the game. That's a really mild form of what I've seen.

I do however hope that they hire someone soon who cares about the PvP environment. It seems like the seesaw got toppled over.

The latest article says they are working to make PvP more rewarding...

Now I wonder what could that be...?

GW2 will focus far less on PvP than on PvE. Unlike GW1 the game engine for GW2 isn't built for pvp and pvp will be far more like arenas in WoW than the current GvG system. I agree it's a disappointing truth, but it's obvious from these facts that HoM rewards and requirements will be geared towards PvE as GW2 will be a PvE-focused game.

A lot of pointless, nonsensical discussion has just been purged from this thread. There is to be no continuation of it, under any circumstances. Stop posting trash in Riverside, kids. Thanks.

Discussion about the actual topic may now resume.

lol, That will not be the case for GW1 vets.

Contrary to what you believe, we encourage the change in the GvG metagame to keep things fresh. The "pro gamer" PvP'ers on the Test Krewe atm constantly push for skill balancing and game mechanic re-works. If we as "pro gamers" maintain our interest in GW1 in the future up until GW2 release, I have no doubt most, if not all, of us will make the transition.

There isn't always symmetry between the pro gamer scene of each individual game.

Which is fine, and I agree, but we are getting distracted from the point. I'm not arguing that those with experience from Guild Wars wont have an advantage in Guild Wars 2, I'm saying for the good of the game those people should be spread out.

If you add an easy way to quantify and recognize Guild Wars achievements in Guild Wars 2, old players are more likely to be sucked back together into their old cliques. This would a bad thing for the competitive game. It would be far better if these players were also likely to just mingle with the new crowd.

Agreed, but in absolutely no way does having a title imply that you are competent.

Sure, but if ArenaNet is smart that wont be the competitive format of choice. Titles were a good way to encourage people to play when the Guild Wars PvP was fading out, and no doubt it resulted in an increase, but ultimately I am positive they were bad for the game. They segregated the community into arbitrary divisions which really were no reflection of skill or potential.

Again, making it harder for new players to get into the game is a bad, bad thing.

If you think it would be good for the game, and good for peoples perception of PvP, to encourage people to grind out hundreds of win streaks in RA, sure. I don't agree.