NEWS FLASH: ANET puts NAIL in PvP Coffin... - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

IlikeGW

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

15 Oct 2010 at 15:59 - 161

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Being a drone in a HA pug is no representation of what good competitive PvP is about.

PvP is about being in a team of equally skilled and experienced people, working in perfect synergy toward an incredibly challenging and ever shifting goal. It's about struggling to the top. It's about winning because of your collective talents.

Yeah and that's maybe less than 1% of the playerbase that can play with that kind of synergy because few people care to put the kind of extreme experience into the PVP format that you need to get there. Hell they even made a cash tournament which is even worse in emphasizing "this is something that requires you to have a constant level of awareness and training for the sport."

People aren't picking up a videogame to train for the Olympics this week, and train again next week when all the rules change. It was way, way too hardcore to ever make sense for the overall casualness of the game. I'm glad some people enjoyed it but the irony of them wanting to get Anet to get more people "into" something that hardcore is lost on them. You can't get people into it because it's too hardcore, not because it's lacking a HoM goody or what have you.

doomfodder

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2007

farm

R/

15 Oct 2010 at 16:57 - 162

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gennadios

It's not so much the getting owned that bothers me, as the fact that even PvP success doesn't seem to be as profitable as PvE.

After 2 months of RA I ended up with a grand total of 76 points, 40 of those were from a double faction weekend where we rolled an extremely good team and got the 25 streak.

That's pretty much the whole story of PvP.

GvG for a month with a guild that's just trying to learn the basics, maybe you'll earn 30k balth faction and you'll be EXTREMELY lucky to earn one or two champ points.

RA for a month, expect to wade through a ton of rudeness, pricks that leave the team at the end of the counter so you get to face the next group 3/4, and even if you end up with an average team, it's a crapshoot whether you'll limp past 5 consecutive wins. Maybe you'll earn 20 glad points in that time.

Nty, in an hour of PvEing I can earn more zkeys than I'll get in a month of PvP.

And you, my friend can go back to the PvP forums and complain about the degenerate meta, the rank based lock-out of new players, and the slow death of most PvP formats.

Edit: Typo

This poster (from another thread) illuminates the current PvP “reward” structure clearly. If ANET chooses not to alter the incentives, then it’s reasonable to infer that ANET chooses have the player base participate in PvE rather than PvP. The HoM PvP requirement only serves to emphasize the obvious... structure creates behavior!

Godefridus

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Dec 2006

Limburgse Jagers [LJ]

15 Oct 2010 at 18:05 - 163

Uhm... do you see anywhere in the Honor section of the HoM calculator the reward:
1 PvE statue: 3 points?

I don"t think so!

So whereas all other titles/statues in the HoM all count as 1 each (regardless if they are pve or pvp), you only get a BONUS if at least one of those is a PvP title.

So driving people away from PvP? ANet might have done that way back when they created all the titles and created more PvE titles than PvP, but actually with the point calculation now for the HoM they might even drive PvE-ers towards PvP as these now require at least one PvP title. And we PvE players sure are title junks

Besides, from the earlier reactions here it seems that the true PvP-ers apparently don't care about the flashy PvE rewards for GW2, so ANet is surely not driving them towards PvE.

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

15 Oct 2010 at 19:31 - 164

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roen

Reminds me of a time long long ago, when I was at university. There was a foosball table in a common area and my best friend and I hung out there and played every day. We were the best players, by far. (Some accomplishment, eh?)

He insisted on pummeling EVERY opponent EVERY time. I tried to reason with him that if we were unwilling to teach other players, unwilling to help our competitors and give them a chance, the competition would dry up and we'd be left with nobody to play with but ourselves. But no. He would only accept complete annihilation and high fiving and smack talking opponents for sucking so bad.

Lo and behold, the people willing to step up to the table and challenge us dwindled. They were sick of his attitude. They'd pony up money to play and get slammed 15-0 in two minutes or less. IT WAS NOT FUN FOR THEM. Eventually, nobody played anymore.

The social dynamic of a dorm is just a bit different from that of an international online team game.

Vazze

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2006

15 Oct 2010 at 21:56 - 165

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roen

Nice attitude. Casual players are lazy. Chicken. Wussies who can't handle the embarrassment. That's how your post reads. Whether that's your true opinion or not I don't know. But that's how it comes across. And it's one of the reasons I don't play PvP. Because that's the way a lot of PvPers come across.

Reminds me of a time long long ago, when I was at university. There was a foosball table in a common area and my best friend and I hung out there and played every day. We were the best players, by far. (Some accomplishment, eh?)

He insisted on pummeling EVERY opponent EVERY time. I tried to reason with him that if we were unwilling to teach other players, unwilling to help our competitors and give them a chance, the competition would dry up and we'd be left with nobody to play with but ourselves. But no. He would only accept complete annihilation and high fiving and smack talking opponents for sucking so bad.

Lo and behold, the people willing to step up to the table and challenge us dwindled. They were sick of his attitude. They'd pony up money to play and get slammed 15-0 in two minutes or less. IT WAS NOT FUN FOR THEM. Eventually, nobody played anymore.

So yeah, lots of people prefer cooperative play of PvE over PvP. For very good reasons. But that doesn't make them lazy. Just less anti-social.

Indeed, that is part of the reason why the pvp population collapsed in most of the arenas. Sadly, this has happened as recently as a year ago when codex was introduced, which tells me that they don't have a clue about relationship between rewards and motivation.
Reward can mean a whole lot of things but it is mostly WINNING, in some form. The kind who is willing to lose for years to get to an imaginary "top", is special and rare. It is definitely not worth the money to develop a major game for them.

Ninja Ninja

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

W/

15 Oct 2010 at 22:03 - 166

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roen

Nice attitude. Casual players are lazy. Chicken. Wussies who can't handle the embarrassment. That's how your post reads. Whether that's your true opinion or not I don't know. But that's how it comes across. And it's one of the reasons I don't play PvP. Because that's the way a lot of PvPers come across.

Its funny because its true, casuals spend more time talking about something than actual doing it and the hom rewards stopping at 30/50 reflect that.

Swahnee

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2008

Italy

Mo/

15 Oct 2010 at 22:23 - 167

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

You can learn the basics of PvP in random arena and by observing matches. All I was saying is don't make "but if only I could play it my way" excuses. You either take the plunge or sit on the sidelines waiting for something that will never happen.

I don't understand this. I'm not asking to "play it my way". I'm simply saying that a lot of people don't care about being the best players of all the GW universe, they would only like a low-level environment where to play PvP without being tremendously serious about it. Like. Every. Sport. Then, about ANet doing something to change the state of things, that's another problem.

Quote:

Indeed many people don't like being slaughtered. Many moons ago when I played my first online game (Unreal Tournament) it took at least a whole summer of being wrecked before I could even hope for a remotely decent round, let alone flag carry or top score. It was still fun as hell though even if I was being repeatedly spawned killed with an amped mini. Satisfaction only comes from accomplishing something that's actually difficult.

Well, congratulations to you. I mean, seriously. The fact is that not everyone is wanting to put all this effort into a game, like not everyone wants to go through 6 hours of daily training to play a RL sport. To enjoy any sport you can train 4 hours a week and play in a non-professional torunament with other people of the same level. And you still have fun, i assure you.

Quote:

When GW launched it was supposed to be the anti-MMO, all competitive and no grind. Here we are 5 years later and it's completely non-competitive with most of the players grinding pointless PvE titles that only require X amount of time and gold. Mission accomplished I guess.

I agree with this. But i don't se how it fits in the point we are making.

[/QUOTE]And for the record there are few PvP players that will help, but you have to put some sort of effort into it first (UAX, learning the basics in RA, observing). It doesn't take long to sort out lazy players from those that have a brain and want to get something done.[/QUOTE]

You are making it way too simple imho.

Ninja Ninja

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Dec 2006

W/

15 Oct 2010 at 22:45 - 168

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

I don't understand this. I'm not asking to "play it my way". I'm simply saying that a lot of people don't care about being the best players of all the GW universe, they would only like a low-level environment where to play PvP without being tremendously serious about it. Like. Every. Sport. Then, about ANet doing something to change the state of things, that's another problem.

Ascalon arena, Shiverpeak arena, Shing jea arena, Sunspear arena, there's you're low level pvp environment.

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

16 Oct 2010 at 00:22 - 169

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

And for the record there are few PvP players that will help, but you have to put some sort of effort into it first (UAX, learning the basics in RA, observing). It doesn't take long to sort out lazy players from those that have a brain and want to get something done.

Most competent players are perfectly happy to help out new guilds with advice, commentary on observer mode, or guests. How many aspiring guilds actually take advantage?

dwchang

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2005

Legion of Losers [LOL]

16 Oct 2010 at 01:20 - 170

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Most competent players are perfectly happy to help out new guilds with advice, commentary on observer mode, or guests. How many aspiring guilds actually take advantage?

I don't claim to know how PvP is now, but back in the day we used to mentor quite a few Guilds and scrimmed them when they asked and afterwards provided advice. Similarly a few months after launch, guilds like Treacherous Empires and Nuclear Launch Detected mentored us.

I understand where this "elitism" talk is coming from, but just like politics, folks are generalizing an entire community based on the loud minority. After so many years of playing, I know quite a few nice and friendly PvP players just as I"m sure PvE players have met nice and friendly PvE players.

Most competent PvP players realize that helping others is how you keep the community growing and more competition is great. Someone's analogy regarding foosball is a great example. It's unfortunate it's reached the low levels it has now, but oh well. I had fun while it lasted and at least for me, I can always PvE. It's never been this "division" for me.

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

16 Oct 2010 at 01:38 - 171

Some of you may recall the community effort known as Team Love [kiSu], which was conceptualized as a place for low-mid level aspiring GvGers to get hands-on training and feedback from high-level players.

What happened?

Very few of the "students," especially after the initial couple of months, actually put any effort into trying to learn anything. In fact, in the final months of gvg in the organization, there were incidents of mentors being insulted and their advice being completely disregarded.

It's not a problem of help being unavailable.

Krill

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2005

America

16 Oct 2010 at 01:50 - 172

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

Well, congratulations to you. I mean, seriously. The fact is that not everyone is wanting to put all this effort into a game, like not everyone wants to go through 6 hours of daily training to play a RL sport. To enjoy any sport you can train 4 hours a week and play in a non-professional torunament with other people of the same level. And you still have fun, i assure you.

My point was you shouldn't expect instant success with anything and there's already low end PvP. Why are players discouraged instead of looking at is as a challenge? The first few times I went into tombs (now HA if you don't know) I was completely clueless but the fun was intoxicating even when we were beat by iway or spikes every time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Most competent players are perfectly happy to help out new guilds with advice, commentary on observer mode, or guests. How many aspiring guilds actually take advantage?

Not many, apparently it's much easier to whine about how it's too hard on a forum. In the past many top tier GvG players freely gave their time to help out learning guilds like kisu and guesting with nobodies. But like I said to get anything out of it there has to be a desire to learn and willingness to park your ego at the enter battle button.

ilr

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2010

[Abandoned acct]

16 Oct 2010 at 01:55 - 173

A PvP format that doesn't leave any room for inexperience(read: creativity) will always wither down to a niche group of hardcores incapable of attracting a positive growth trend. Comp has always been like this is any game that has ever supported a rigid enough ruleset to exclude anyone on the basis of said inexperience. It's a philosophical difference in mindsets where playing only at the highest skill level becomes the definition of fun which might be miles away from everyone else's definition of fun. ...thus begets the divide.

It's quite the interesting little conundrum. ...without that dedication and sacrifice of individuality, there's no highlight reels to inspire the newer generations. But without the selfish incentives of individual conquest (I did it MY way), the bar of entry might as well be looped in razorwire and dead fish.

YunSooJin

Pyromaniac

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/W

16 Oct 2010 at 03:05 - 174

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocky Raccoon

I think the players, for all the various reasons mentioned in the posts above. are the ones who drove the stake and nailed the coffin of PvP in GW.

any competitive format will not coddle bad players, 'mentor' them and shit feel good rainbows so your collective egos will be assuaged.

Siraena Vairidean

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2010

Never Ending Hearts

Me/

16 Oct 2010 at 03:25 - 175

It's like your PS3 or 360. You buy these consoles because of the main games they release for them. The dvd player and the little arcade downloads are little sidebars. They're nice to have and enjoy, but they're not the main purpose of the systems.

Guild Wars is a story. That story is told through PvE.

MithranArkanere

Underworld Spelunker

Join Date: Nov 2006

wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigo

Heraldos de la Llama Oscura [HLO]

E/

16 Oct 2010 at 03:25 - 176

PvP population mechanics are simple.

The more specialized and the better players you have, the fewer the most specialized will be, and the less interested the rest of the players are.
Because it's just not fun when you lose 99% of the time.
It's fun when you can have fun even when you lose, and 25..75% of the time is fine, but not losing 99% of the time.

Which PvP mode is currently more populated?
I think most people would agree that it is RA.
Why? Because people can quickly join, and fight, and do stuff even if they are really bad, and learn (or not) and be teamed not just against the best, but against all kinds of people.
It's like in most FPS servers. You may have fun even when you get sniped in the head a lot.

Which is the less populated?
Codex.
Why? Because you have to convince 3 people to join with you. And even if you are good in PvP, it's still hard to find people.
Make CA random like RA, and I bet the number of people that join will at least double.

So, I think they should leave teams for tournaments and GvG, and let people join in random teams in all the 3 arenas in the battle isles.
That should take care of the entry resistance, remove too specialized 64-skill builds, while letting in lots and lots of people that is cannot get teams for whatever the reason.
If you want to play seriously with a team, you train with scrimmages and wait for the next tournament and the 'team' version of those arenas.

I can't help but smirk when I think of HA with random teams. Hee hee hee... that would be fun.

Ka Tet

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2006

Pita Bread And Scud Missiles Ai[iiii]

16 Oct 2010 at 05:49 - 177

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

While it isn't all A.nets fault, they do take up a very large chunk of blame. Not all players who left, quit because they did everything they wanted to and decided to ride off into the sunset. A lot of players quit out of frustration due to A.Nets complete lack of understanding the game they created, and the horrible updates that resulted because of the fact. It is pretty frustrating to have the people in charge of the game show a complete lack of understanding time and time again, and when help and advice is offered, have your words fall on deaf ears.

^^TRUTH
GW pvp had the potential to be great. It really would not have taken much to make it that way. However, it was entirely ignored for long stretches of time, and when efforts were made to 'fix' it, the efforts weren't made by people competent for the task [think dentist fixing a car as opposed to a mechanic fixing a car].
It's too late to salvage it now anyway.

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

16 Oct 2010 at 06:11 - 178

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimhild The Queen

It's like your PS3 or 360. You buy these consoles because of the main games they release for them. The dvd player and the little arcade downloads are little sidebars. They're nice to have and enjoy, but they're not the main purpose of the systems.

Guild Wars is a story. That story is told through PvE.

Your analogy is terrible.

Vazze

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2006

16 Oct 2010 at 07:09 - 179

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Which PvP mode is currently more populated?
I think most people would agree that it is RA.
Why? Because people can quickly join, and fight, and do stuff even if they are really bad, and learn (or not) and be teamed not just against the best, but against all kinds of people.
It's like in most FPS servers. You may have fun even when you get sniped in the head a lot.

I read somewhere on a League of Legends forum that their soloQ is about 5 times more populated than their premade (for the same arena). No idea about fps games like L4D but I am fairly certain that the ratio is even bigger there. This of course does not mean that organized pvp has no place in gw, it's just that they had the wrong approach building it up.

I Angra I

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2007

Napa, CA

Inadequately Equipped [GeAr]

R/N

16 Oct 2010 at 09:48 - 180

I don't understand the point of this thread.

Every post I've skimmed through is just stating facts rather than actual discussion going on.

I can't even comment on anything because everyone is just stating obvious things (or is stating wildly ridiculous things that I don't want to bother with).

Also, concerning the last page or two, with people saying that nobody wants to help anyone get into competitive pvp.. Gear has tried helping out people quite a lot, and I'm willing to talk to/give advice to anyone who pms me in game or on forums or anything if they want to learn about pvp. In fact there's a lot of high end pvpers who are perfectly willing to help out. Most people just either don't try to seek help, or are too stubborn to.

lutz

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2006

Battery Powered Best Friends [Vibe]

Me/

16 Oct 2010 at 09:54 - 181

This is the goal of PvP:
Get more people to play PvP and increase competition, make the metagame better, and have overall skill improve, thus improve the game.
Thus: game gets more fun, and you aren't just beating your head against the same wall every time.

This is the way you achieve this goal:
Get more people to play PvP.

This is the primary way you get more people to play PvP:
Add an incentive to play PvP.

What is a really easy incentive that could be added?
Add a title people need to get to achieve completion of the hall of monuments that involves direct immersion in PvP.

The main goal of PvP is and has always been to get more people to play, increase skill/competition and make the game more fun. Stop assuming otherwise - it's incredible how some people are throwing wild assumptions about PvP when they haven't really experienced much of it.

ilr

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2010

[Abandoned acct]

16 Oct 2010 at 18:16 - 182

"required title for HoM"
omg no, plz no, lol...

The Great Eski

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Oct 2010

At my computer

W/

16 Oct 2010 at 22:24 - 183

I was under the impression that the PvP of this game was completely balanced in terms of gear and abilities available to the player. Battles were won due to actual skill rather then out-gearing your opponent.

Any rewards that a PvPer would get from the "Hall of monuments" would be purely aesthetic. What's the point?

snaek

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

N/

16 Oct 2010 at 22:34 - 184

^the exact same thing can be applied to pve. so exactly, what's the point...

The Great Eski

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Oct 2010

At my computer

W/

16 Oct 2010 at 22:36 - 185

I asked first.

----------

I suppose the reason that they focused on PvE is because PvE has more options available for earning points.

You can only kill people a number of times before you run out of ways to do it uniquely after all.

ilr

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2010

[Abandoned acct]

17 Oct 2010 at 00:39 - 186

uhhh... they didn't actually focus on PvE initially. I was a core PvE'er and the first 2 years of this game were a suckfest for PvE'ers. ...barely was able to play it at all until the PvP'ers got greedy for even more developer focus and then stormed off when they didn't get it, leaving no one else to really pander to except the PvE'ers. ...which they did. But yeah, originally there used to be HUGE tournaments, expensive prizes, and a hell lotta respect for the top guilds...

Now days there's match rigging & other shenanigans, and ladder finalists sometimes troll the final matches just to protest
(demonstrate how butthurt the PvP community is at Anet).

Siraena Vairidean

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2010

Never Ending Hearts

Me/

17 Oct 2010 at 04:31 - 187

I failed to realize it at first, but now it's clear. This thread is just feeding assumptions that certain people's over-inflated egos won't get their fill from GW2.

Swahnee

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2008

Italy

Mo/

17 Oct 2010 at 08:37 - 188

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimhild The Queen

I failed to realize it at first, but now it's clear. This thread is just feeding assumptions that certain people's over-inflated egos won't get their fill from GW2.

Also in the other thread in Sardelac now nuked someone said that this new PvP-care (or how do you want to call it) in this forum is caused by people in fear of not being able to get their 50/50.

But what's difficult in understanding that there's no PvP requirement in HoM at all? That label saying "1 pvp statue" doesn't mean what you think it means, since you can earn it without stepping foot into the organized pvp, thanks to the zaishen title, and the max number of statues accepted is 40, which can all be obtained through PvE.

And, for the record, i'm totally against using PvE titles (because HoM and GW2 HoM rewards are all PvE rewards) to incentive people to play PvP. Imho, people who would like to do PvP should be given the chance to, and people who aren't interested in it (i mean really uninterested, not those driven away by social issues or personal unwillingness of trying) shouldn't be forced. What kind of PvP would it be if it was full of people not liking it, doing it only for the title?

fowlero

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2007

England, UK

We Are The One And Only [rR]

17 Oct 2010 at 09:51 - 189

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

What kind of PvP would it be if it was full of people not liking it, doing it only for the title?

Heroes Ascent.

Siraena Vairidean

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Aug 2010

Never Ending Hearts

Me/

17 Oct 2010 at 11:09 - 190

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

Also in the other thread in Sardelac now nuked someone said that this new PvP-care (or how do you want to call it) in this forum is caused by people in fear of not being able to get their 50/50.

But what's difficult in understanding that there's no PvP requirement in HoM at all? That label saying "1 pvp statue" doesn't mean what you think it means, since you can earn it without stepping foot into the organized pvp, thanks to the zaishen title, and the max number of statues accepted is 40, which can all be obtained through PvE.

And, for the record, i'm totally against using PvE titles (because HoM and GW2 HoM rewards are all PvE rewards) to incentive people to play PvP. Imho, people who would like to do PvP should be given the chance to, and people who aren't interested in it (i mean really uninterested, not those driven away by social issues or personal unwillingness of trying) shouldn't be forced. What kind of PvP would it be if it was full of people not liking it, doing it only for the title?

You don't have to like it, but that doesn't mean you should oppose it.

Whatever happen to just enjoying the game for what it is? You got your kicks while playing PvP. You set your goals and accomplished them. Now you want your accomplishments to be rewarded? So now you're suggesting that the game should work for you. Well, that's not how it works.

The game is what it is. You make up your own enjoyment from it. So when something takes place that gives more to players who are doing what you're not, doesn't mean you're loosing anything; especially in this case.

I could give you thousands of instances in the game that could be categorized as "not fair". I won't because I appreciate the game based on my own goals I had set.

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

17 Oct 2010 at 11:24 - 191

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimhild The Queen

You don't have to like it, but that doesn't mean you should oppose it.

wat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimhild The Queen

Whatever happen to just enjoying the game for what it is? You got your kicks while playing PvP. You set your goals and accomplished them. Now you want your accomplishments to be rewarded? So now you're suggesting that the game should work for you. Well, that's not how it works.

Your contempt towards everyone expressing support for PvP in this thread contradicts your point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimhild The Queen

I could give you thousands of instances in the game that could be categorized as "not fair". I won't because I appreciate the game based on my own goals I had set.

If the HoM required Champion, Hero, Commander, and Gladiator monuments for completion, would you have not decried it as being "not fair?"

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

17 Oct 2010 at 11:41 - 192

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

If the HoM required Champion, Hero, Commander, and Gladiator monuments for completion, would you have not decried it as being "not fair?"

There's no specific requirement for any PvE titles. No PvE title gives any particular bonus required to reach 50/50, but PvP titles do. Other than that, all you have to do is to fill it with 40 staues, be it PvE, PvP, joke titles, elite areas...

So, still, I'd like to know what's so special about PvP to get a special bonus in the HoM at all. The requirement for a PvP title shouldn't exist at all, just like it doesn't for PvE.

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

17 Oct 2010 at 11:56 - 193

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

There's no specific requirement for any PvE titles. No PvE title gives any particular bonus required to reach 50/50, but PvP titles do. Other than that, all you have to do is to fill it with 40 staues, be it PvE, PvP, joke titles, elite areas...

So, still, I'd like to know what's so special about PvP to get a special bonus in the HoM at all. The requirement for a PvP title shouldn't exist at all, just like it doesn't for PvE.

What's so special about FoW or Vabbian armor that they give your HoM an extra point?

Just like GWAMM and the HoM requirements in general, the existence of diversified objectives incentivize doing stuff that you wouldn't normally do. It's not so much that it'd be a special title so much as that it would get the completionists to try something out of their comfort zones.

JR

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/

17 Oct 2010 at 13:09 - 194

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

This is the goal of PvP:
Get more people to play PvP and increase competition, make the metagame better, and have overall skill improve, thus improve the game.
Thus: game gets more fun, and you aren't just beating your head against the same wall every time.

This is the way you achieve this goal:
Get more people to play PvP.

This is the primary way you get more people to play PvP:
Add an incentive to play PvP.

What is a really easy incentive that could be added?
Add a title people need to get to achieve completion of the hall of monuments that involves direct immersion in PvP.

So what do they do? Should they go to HA and try to find a PuG? Good luck with that. Are they down to trying to grind win-streaks in RA? Do they have to find a new guild that GvGs and by some miracle rack up champ points?

You can't just twist peoples arm to get them into PvP, and hope somehow they stick. They will end up having a deeply unpleasant experience trying to get anywhere, and it will only cement their dislike for the format. This game is simply not set up for casual PvP.

Darcy

Never Too Old

Join Date: Jul 2006

Rhode Island where there are no GW contests

Order of First

W/R

17 Oct 2010 at 13:39 - 195

The players who do PvP do not want new people on their teams, they want ranked players. Without playing you cannot get ranks. This has been a problem for years now. We constantly have questions in Q&A on how to get into PvP. There is no solution to the problem until they do away with ranks which means no PvP titles.

Killed u man

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

17 Oct 2010 at 13:47 - 196

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darcy

The players who do PvP do not want new people on their teams, they want ranked players. Without playing you cannot get ranks. This has been a problem for years now. We constantly have questions in Q&A on how to get into PvP. There is no solution to the problem until they do away with ranks which means no PvP titles.

Same can be said for elite PvE areas, speed clears, and whatnot else. I don't see people crying about those...

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

17 Oct 2010 at 13:58 - 197

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

What's so special about FoW or Vabbian armor that they give your HoM an extra point?

You're comparing one-shot objectives like the acquisition of objects in game to playstyles. Pointless.

Anyway, nothing special about either FoW or Vabbian armor, even though they are kinda "special" in that specific context when compared to the other armor sets for their "prestige" status, due to costs. Why is R3 Gladiator more valuable then, say, a Master of the North title on the Honor Monument? PvP being "better" than PvE? Neither requires that much ability with the game, and both can be achieved rather easily thanks to well known gimmicks/exploits (synching and dungeon runs respectively)

Anyway, a PvP title giving a bonus is perfectly fine with me, but then I don't see a reason for equally uncommon pve accomplishments not to give any bonuses.

The same argument about diversified objectives can be turned over: why is it not mandatory to have, say, a Survivor or LDoA? Again, PvP being "special"?

Offering multiple ways of reaching a goal is a good thing, and currently the HoM only offers one. Forcing people into a specific playstyle - expecially in this game, where the PvP world has been hostile and repulsive for years - is not.

Boring and Pointless

Academy Page

Join Date: Oct 2010

17 Oct 2010 at 14:08 - 198

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Same can be said for elite PvE areas, speed clears, and whatnot else. I don't see people crying about those...

That's because these pve carebears think elitism is only bad when it happens in PvP.

Killed u man

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

17 Oct 2010 at 14:17 - 199

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

You're comparing one-shot objectives like the acquisition of objects in game to playstyles. Pointless.

Anyway, nothing special about either FoW or Vabbian armor, even though they are kinda "special" in that specific context when compared to the other armor sets for their "prestige" status, due to costs. Why is R3 Gladiator more valuable then, say, a Master of the North title on the Honor Monument? PvP being "better" than PvE? Neither requires that much ability with the game, and both can be achieved rather easily thanks to well known gimmicks/exploits (synching and dungeon runs respectively)

Anyway, a PvP title giving a bonus is perfectly fine with me, but then I don't see a reason for equally uncommon pve accomplishments not to give any bonuses.

The same argument about diversified objectives can be turned over: why is it not mandatory to have, say, a Survivor or LDoA? Again, PvP being "special"?

Offering multiple ways of reaching a goal is a good thing, and currently the HoM only offers one. Forcing people into a specific playstyle - expecially in this game, where the PvP world has been hostile and repulsive for years - is not.

You're arguing that PvE and PvP are on the same "skill-level"?

Are we really going to have to go over this that PvP is infinite times more harder than PvE for the obvious reason that PvE is nothing more than exploiting the flaws in the AI, and rolling your head over the keyboard.

Even UW SC's and such can hardly be concidered hard in the "challenging" meaning of the word. PvE is nothing more than repeating the same thing over and over again.

And what you said about PvP is definatly true though, but you're making an unfair comparison. Players ruined PvP, but it worked by design. It was the fact that PvE'ers swarmed PvP, not to play competitively, but rather to farm titles, that PvP become such a despicable place.

What ruined PvP was that same mentality which is PvE: Farm, repeat, farm, repeat.

I hope this doesn't get mistaken for an anti-PvE post, which it isn't. I love playing PvE, I probably play it more than PvP nowadays, but saying PvP is on the same skill level as PvE is complete bs.

I don't care too much about the PvE side of HoM, as I've pretty much got all titles and achievements in the bag (almost), but it saddens me to see PvP got reduced to nothing, when it still is (even today when terrible people roam freely across the PvP lands) the bigger achievement to be made.

I think all PvP titles should have been represented in the HoM (with the exception of commander, as it is unachieveable for many players).

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

17 Oct 2010 at 14:37 - 200

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

You're arguing that PvE and PvP are on the same "skill-level"?

No. Theoretically, they are not but...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

What ruined PvP was that same mentality which is PvE: Farm, repeat, farm, repeat.

You kinda answered yourself.

I don't see that much of a difference between AI exploitation and synching, skill abuses, RR-day and such. Except that, AI exploitation is rather common in non-competitive games (come on, most RPGs and MMOs are just like GW in this sense). PvP title farming through abuses is so unsportly and offensive toward other players that it got me quitting with both HA and TA long ago.

Guild Wars is a rather simplistic game that doesn't require that much skill at pretty much any level, not even in PvP. PvP requiring fracionally more skill than PvE doesn't make it any special to me. PvE and PvP are two utterly different things with so little in common I wonder why people keep comparing them.