NEWS FLASH: ANET puts NAIL in PvP Coffin...

If that's the case, why is this whole thing framed as a wailing "Anet doesn't love us" post, when that entire premise could be condensed into a single point:

"I suggest Anet add a way to let Fame carry over, just like GWAMM".

Boom. Problem solved. Constructive, helpful, and to the point.

I'm sure that every PvEer has had at least one bad pug experience when starting out. Why didn't that stop all of them from PvEing?

The first thing you need to know is that people in PvP who aren't terrible tend to be not snooty. Just like in Halo, the masses of morons skew the perception from the outside.

Now, any kind of organized PvP is going to feature quite a bit of time spent on Vent. Considering the primary demographic of PvPers (males aged 16-24), it shouldn't be a surprise that a female presence is preferable, even without any harassment going on.

They put the nail in the whole game's coffin by moving on to GW2, so you're kind of off base on the HoM. It's fairly irrelevant.

And if they want to fix PVP rewards sure won't do it. That's not the problem that makes it low interest, the problem is it was way too hardcore and full of bitchy little nerds with no life that threw everyone out and insisted only other fellow flavor-of-the-month builds play against each other. You got your wish.

Paragraph #1 is just matters of opinion... Most pvp and pve players don,t like updates because they changed the over powered meta of their favorite activity.

You contradict yourself in paragraphs 2 & 4. High party wait times are a direct result of having to wait around for the correct rank (rank discrimination). New players don't form groups because they don't know what they are doing.

Whats the point of going in not knowing what your doing vrs a high ranked team. Do you really expect new players to play against people that just want to win all day? There is no learning experiences if there is no way of gauging what exactly your doing wrong.

Your analogy about sports would be valid if there different leagues of skill
(ie.. new groups vrs new groups)... you don't see high school football players playing against professional leagues.. Which i think would save PVP... have different arenas for different tiers of rank.... once you get enough rank you advance to the next arena... newbs vrs newbs... big boys vrs big boys...

added suggestion thread...
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...57#post5269557

Because my heroes and henchmen don't complain when I sacrifice their lives so that I may obtain my objective.

This makes complete sense to me, wouldn't necessarily have to have different arenas though, just some opponent selection logic.

Paragraph 1 isn't a matter of opinion. It is fact. Many PvPers have been quoted over the years stating their reason for leaving was that they were fed up with how A.Net has managed PvP. Players who are still playing now scream about how A.Net has mismanaged PvP. Most if not all PvPers don't complain about updates happening, they complain about what the update implemented.

Paragraphs 2 &4 don't really contradict one another. They are two separate points. Rank discrimination isn't a valid reason for lack of players. Rank discrimination is supposed to exist. The problem is everyone's mindset that they shouldn't have to start from scratch. Yes they should. You should start from scratch. If you don't want to, then don't play.

New players not knowing what they are doing is a stupid excuse. There are forums with guides. There is PvXwiki for builds. There are forums for recruiting. Get a team, roll a build, and start playing. Ask the people who beat you for tips, and if they are nice enough they will give them to you. And most high end GvGers are nice enough to give players tips, or point them to a guide that will answer a lot of their questions.

I don't see how you can't learn from playing. I don't see how you can't learn from getting beat. I never started playing with top players. I played with 7 other guys who never GvG'd before. We got better by playing. We saw what worked well, and we saw what failed miserably. We learned what builds we could run well, and which builds we used like crap. We watched our matches, saw our positioning mistakes, helped each other learn what we did wrong, communicated with each other about how to fix it, and we got better. About a year later I was playing in a top 200 guild and won a bronze trim. YOU DO LEARN FROM LOSING. Playing the game makes you better. The only way it wouldn't is if you are too stupid to learn from your own mistakes. The resources are out there to help you beat the learning curve faster. USE THEM.

My analogy for sports kinda does work actually. This whole conversation isn't with 1 brand new team entering the PvP scene in mind. There are hundreds of players constantly complaining about rank discrimination. If they all made guilds, there would be close to a hundred new teams. GvG does have a system pitting like ranked guilds against each other. The problem today is there are like 10 guilds playing during American times. You aren't going to be matched against a similar rank if no similar rank is playing. You get matched with whoever is playing. If everyone complaining created their own guilds, 9 out of 10 times they would play each other. They would still play the occasional champ range guild every now and then, but for the most part you won't be.

Rather then sitting around and complaining no one is holding your hand, you should just shut up and play. You do get better through losing. Everyone who is in high end GvG now got better through losing. No one came in and was winning from the get go. We all suck when we start. If you are smart enough to actually figure out your mistakes, you won't suck forever.

Because most of the PvE game is solo-able thanks to H/H. And thank God for that. I don't play the game to be screwed with by teenagers (or people behaving like them). Jerks are everywhere but more online than AFK, if you ask me. Something to do with the Greater Internet F*wad Theory.

last time i checked facts were absolute... 100% of people would have to agree with everything you said for it to be fact.


Ie.

Such as the sky is blue.
People love breathing...
Fire Burns..

How is me stating that A.Nets failure at balancing has caused some people to quit the game not a fact? People have quit because of their management of PvP. That is a FACT.

your original statement contained "it is pretty frustrating to have the people in charge of the game show a complete lack of understanding time and time again" which is a matter of perception. and contains words like most and some. These are not factual statements... Stating stating that A.Nets failure is also a matter of perception.... If you want to say that people left because they were displeased with new updates... yes that would be a fact.

There was a time when heroes didn't exist, you know.
It's not a matter of perception or opinion that a lot of updates were detrimental to the state of the game.

yes, its a fact these updates were detrimental... but the success or failure of these updates is left to the players definition and benchmarks of success of failure is opinion.

Fact. (Noun)

something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
2.
something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
3.
a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4.
something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.
5.
Law . Often, facts. an actual or alleged event or circumstance, as distinguished from its legal effect or consequence.


Opinion–noun
1.
a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2.
a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
3.
the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second Medical opinion.
4.
Law . the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.
5.
a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.: to forfeit someone's good opinion.
6.
a favorable estimate; esteem: I haven't much of an opinion of him.

It is a fact that you don't know what you're talking about. It is my opinion that you should stop posting about it.

And that is the only point I was making in that paragraph. The sentence you are so bent out of shape over was my reaction to the fact that A.Net implemented so many detrimental updates. The point of that paragraph wasn't my reaction to the event. It was pointing out the event itself. The event occurring is a fact.

Right once faced with real definitions you have to personally attack me, Y'all obviously never been educated in former debate. check and mate. But since your a mod people probably won't even see this.

Yes, I know. Which is why I played through Prophecies with mostly just hench. My comment still stands. Most of Prophecies in NM is solo-able with just hench. And now most of PvE is solo-able with H/H.

You learn a lot less by being steamrolled than you do from a near defeat.

The point about lack of tiered play is spot on. You don't learn to fence by going to find the best swordsman in the world, and having him skewer you a thousand times a day. You progress against people of your same level of skill under the watchful eye of an experienced instructor.

That attitude your present, the notion that anyone who isn't willing to constantly be steamrolled by champion level groups for months at a time to learn how to actually hold your own is a terrible person, is simply not new player friendly. Is it really any wonder that the average gamer, when told "come here and fail", is turned off by that notion? So if you're idea of getting into PvP to revitalize the game you want to have given recognized and catered to is "Come here so experienced teams can beat you down again and again and again, why are you complaining?", then sorry, no, I'm just not going to play. I've got better things to do, and if your favorite mode stagnates as a result of me and mine leaving, I have no reason to care.

the rewards (hero title track, emote, unid gold from HoH chest) do not justify the pain (insults, losing, waiting time to form or find a match, realizing you're terrible, playing with preteens on vent) for the majority of players.

GvG has even less rewards.

that's why most people never improve at organized PvP. they want it easier and to give more.

it was only a matter of time before people started shitting on gw2 pvp...

i'll have to agree with the naysayers that anet is showing obvious signs that gw2 pvp might be crap. however, i don't think it will be--anet won't let it be. anet royally effed up gw1 pvp and i'm sure they won't let that happen to gw2. because if they do, they'll lose a whole 4% of their playerbase--and we all know how much anet loves its playerbase.

for real though, gw2 pvp won't be bad--it just won't be great for the same reasons that gw1's pvp was during the height of it.

my prediction: gw1 tried to get pve'rs to pvp by crafting pve to "ready" them for pvp; gw2 will try to get pve'rs to pvp by introducing pve elements into pvp so that it will feel "familiar" and "accessible" (hopefully, this won't lead to dumbing down the gameplay or making it less competitive).

Actually, none of the above. I have no incentive to participate in PvP because PvP simply doesn't interest me. I came to GW for the PvE experience. Period.

I'm not bitter towards PvE players or anet. Disappointed with the later would be more appropriate. However, the PvE players don't seem to get it at all. The disappointment is that anet has spent what little resources they have on pointless endeavors like the henchmen contest, zaishen zoo and HoM additions rather than making actual improvements to PvP.

I don't care about items or titles, what I do care about is that there's no TA because anet was too lazy to fix it, HA is a ghost town and you can take a nap waiting for GvG matches. It's not even worth the time anymore, but thank god I was rewarded with a trinket for GW2.

Why am I not surprised? Imagine you are a gaming company aiming to make money (of course).

95% of people like PvE (cooperative play).
5% of people like PvP (competitive play).

Which of these playerbases would be worth focusing on? The answer seems way too easy.

PvP is wanted by the minority. Being a minority sucks every area of life, just accept it and move on.

Krill seems to disagree...

Which is kinda what happened, y'know, and what the OP is complaining about Very few people play PvP for this very reason.

If you don't like it, leave and move on arguments are all fine and good until there's no players left.

Sigh, all too true. I may not care about PvP and find it boring, but I know how being a minority feels. How seeing practically no games like System shock 2 are made any more feels... Sigh...

I was expecting stupid comments like this. Now you can turn off the television, get up from yuor sofa and go out playing some sport, and maybe you'll understand the difference from sport and business.

This, in my opinion, is what ANet should have done from the beginning. Different level tournaments with their respective ladders, so hardcore players could play with hardcore players, and casual with casual (and maybe even more levels).

Casual player is usually code talk for lazy players that cry when they are beat and don't want to get better. The only way to learn and improve is to play against people who are better than you. I understand that a lot of people never even tried PvP because they were afraid of being embarrassed but it's a leap you have to take.

Regardless, to a certain extent players are segregated. The GvG ladder tries to match guilds of similar rating and CM's, AB and RA are full of "casual players". I don't believe it would be possible to dumb it down more then JQ or RA.

It's not about crying when beaten or being humbled for a lot of people I know. It's more like not wanting to go to HA and deal with people who make things like HA very difficult. Casual players usually aren't lazy, they're just not playing the game to deal with the assholes that come in a gift basket with HA/GvG guilds/groups. It certainly turns me off from PvP, and has been for years.

Its not about being lazy, carebear or whatever PVP'ers say about PVE'rs.

Its a matter of taste.

Some listen rock and some listen rap.

Some like PVE and some PVP. Some like to compete, some to cooperate. Some like beat others, some like to beat monsters.

Whats the problem of other people not having the same taste as you? Jeez..

the irony in this thread is the ANET put in the nail in the coffin for PvP a long long time ago.

I think the players, for all the various reasons mentioned in the posts above. are the ones who drove the stake and nailed the coffin of PvP in GW.

I have to agree, its the PvP'rs who sealed PvP's fate a long time ago. Rank discrimination, elitist attitudes, and cheating all did thier part for PvP. Now its only the elitists left who play and now they complain, "there isnt anyone here!"

Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying the OP or other PvP enthusiasts in this forum display that type of behavior. But, thats what happend. PvE is simply more conducive to an enjoyable atmosphere. Therefore, more people PvE so they get the cookie.

People like those you are talking about surely exist, but you can't make such an exaggeration, saying most of them are lazy (not wanting to put words into your mouth, correct me if i misunderstood). There are indeed also real casuals, meaning people who don't want/can't be so dedicated to this game because they've better things to do, usually in real life. Other people have got some time, but they don't want to take this game so seriously. I know that to have a chance to compete in PvP you have to learn quite a lot of stuff that in PvE you never even heard about. A lot of people say, rightfully in my opinion, "this is just a game, i won't go mad for it". I don't think that these kind of people should be totally kept away from the PvP aspect of the game, and i don't think, also, that they shoud be allowed to win against hardcore players. They both should simply be allowed to play at their own paces, like it happens, and works wonderfully, in real sports. I play in a very low volleyball league in Italy, but i don't think to be "too lazy" to reach the top series (and being only 1.73 m tall doesn't help me ).

You are right that GvG ladder try to address this issue, but GvG is the last step. I would love to see tournaments and ladders in the "learning places" like 4v4 arenas. If you are a total newcomer of PvP, you probably don't start right with GvG, you'll try to learn the basic concepts of organized play in the smaller arenas, but you won't learn anything if most times you lose badly to hardcore players. However, there is another thread in sardelac on this actual subject, so i won't go deep into this matter here.

Nice attitude. Casual players are lazy. Chicken. Wussies who can't handle the embarrassment. That's how your post reads. Whether that's your true opinion or not I don't know. But that's how it comes across. And it's one of the reasons I don't play PvP. Because that's the way a lot of PvPers come across.

Reminds me of a time long long ago, when I was at university. There was a foosball table in a common area and my best friend and I hung out there and played every day. We were the best players, by far. (Some accomplishment, eh?)

He insisted on pummeling EVERY opponent EVERY time. I tried to reason with him that if we were unwilling to teach other players, unwilling to help our competitors and give them a chance, the competition would dry up and we'd be left with nobody to play with but ourselves. But no. He would only accept complete annihilation and high fiving and smack talking opponents for sucking so bad.

Lo and behold, the people willing to step up to the table and challenge us dwindled. They were sick of his attitude. They'd pony up money to play and get slammed 15-0 in two minutes or less. IT WAS NOT FUN FOR THEM. Eventually, nobody played anymore.

So yeah, lots of people prefer cooperative play of PvE over PvP. For very good reasons. But that doesn't make them lazy. Just less anti-social.

The thing is there's lots of hardcore players in GW that don't enjoy the PVP. And the reason is for many of them the General and troops style organization you need is really the worst gaming experience. I've played with perfectly friendly talented PVP groups and won the HoH a few times. I recognize that what good groups needed was good leadership, and that I wasn't really the guy for that so I just followed orders. But you know what it was pretty boring to spend my escapist gaming time following orders and builds other people made up. It didn't feel like there was much point. It didn't take any talent at all to follow orders, and the matches were 95% about how good the leaders were. So even on the "inside" of PVP I found it boring, and all the people getting dissed when trying to even get a group of course, or the impossibility of a PUG succeeding make it even worse for people.

Being a drone in a HA pug is no representation of what good competitive PvP is about.

PvP is about being in a team of equally skilled and experienced people, working in perfect synergy toward an incredibly challenging and ever shifting goal. It's about struggling to the top. It's about winning because of your collective talents.

It's not about having orders barked at you in a terrible pug format.

^this. although i can understand why PvE'ers don't want to play any PvP. One of the guild leaders in my alliance tried RA out the other day because I told him he was a good enough monk to try it. He got his team 10 wins and lost on the 11th and 2 players on his team spammed NOOB! at him when they lost. That is the disconnect. Which would he rather do: Get some RA points while getting called names or go heal for a team of alliance mates that always want him along because he is a good monk and also make some money while doing it and then buy zkeys for the PvP HoM points? I think name callers helped ANET to make the decision about PvP points in the HoM.

You can learn the basics of PvP in random arena and by observing matches. All I was saying is don't make "but if only I could play it my way" excuses. You either take the plunge or sit on the sidelines waiting for something that will never happen.

Indeed many people don't like being slaughtered. Many moons ago when I played my first online game (Unreal Tournament) it took at least a whole summer of being wrecked before I could even hope for a remotely decent round, let alone flag carry or top score. It was still fun as hell though even if I was being repeatedly spawned killed with an amped mini. Satisfaction only comes from accomplishing something that's actually difficult. When GW launched it was supposed to be the anti-MMO, all competitive and no grind. Here we are 5 years later and it's completely non-competitive with most of the players grinding pointless PvE titles that only require X amount of time and gold. Mission accomplished I guess.

And for the record there are few PvP players that will help, but you have to put some sort of effort into it first (UAX, learning the basics in RA, observing). It doesn't take long to sort out lazy players from those that have a brain and want to get something done.

This risk/reward scenario is the underlying theme of most of the posters in this thread. EVERY GAMER sees risk in the game (that's why it's a game) & EVERY gamer sees reward in the game.

In THIS case, the risks for the PvE'r entering PvP are noted in the quote above & the reward IS THE INCENTIVE created by ANET. ANET could have used the HoM to enhance the value precieved by the existing incentives in order to stimulate PvP (even a very small amount). By increasing/changing the reward - essentially lowering the risk/reward ratio that is soley determined by each individual gamer. Sure, the other alternative is to change the PvP "risk" structure, but THAT "solution" is entirely independent of the HoM.

The point of the OP: ANET simply chose NOT to assume the risk of alienating the majority of the player base (PvE) by intentionally STEERING the player base away from PvP (ie: making more thatn 1 PvP title mandatory). Instead ANET used the HoM to STEER the available gamers into PvE. Since ANET conciously made this choice, there are other options to stimulate PvP...

Sure if you're rich enough (doesn't matter how you earn in-game $ legally per the EULA - Pve drops or PvP selling) you can buy many of the titles required for HoM and eventually get 50/50. That's just part of the structure created by ANET. We can't change the rules, we can only play by them. But what if ANET were to "alter" the rules to increase the $ rewards in PvP - like earning $ for each kill? Could it actually be faster to earn $ in PvP instead of PvE & thereby use PvP to "help" fill your HoM? Think of it this way: If you thought you could make more $ 'faster" in PvP than than you could in PvE, would you try it?