NEWS FLASH: ANET puts NAIL in PvP Coffin...

Im afraid you bought up the 2 points why most PvEers wont even consider going anywhere near PvP domain unless its their own GH or the Menagerie/Zquest flags in GtoB.

1. Elitism. You might say that its due to players being too lazy, but I say its because players had bad experiences with PvP while it was popular. No one would even consider taking a PvP noob into their group no matter what back then. Any groups you got into lost 95% of the time against said Elitists and broke up shortly after under heavy flaming as to how everyone can be so incompetent. Forming a group of inexperienced players wont get anyone anywhere.

The only way to actually learn how to win and set up a good group is if experienced players actually helped the noobs into their own groups and showed them how to win. But whats the chance that this will ever realistically happen (and Im not talking about the lone good Samaritan here and there. I mean Everyone helps out and comes down from their Elitist high horse)? Theonly thign a bad group can learn is how to loose, and thats not really very rewarding is it? The way it was and still seems to be is that Rank is the most important thing in PvP. If you dont have it, then go away you PvE scrub

2. Empty PvP areas. If you want PvEers to play PvP, then they have to see that they are actually able to find groups in the first place. They turn up in an empty district and go away again because there is no point in actually waiting around bored in a District with nothing happening, you cam do that any time in a Vanquished area of your choice.

It's easier for females to get a leg up in the pvp world, even if they don't show tits.

That's not terribly relevant. Even for quite a few PvEers, the storyline is completely incidental.

Getting into PvP relies a bit on getting a lucky break for most people. Your job is to position yourself to take best advantage of them. Watch obs mode, ask experienced players for advice, find low-ranked guilds to play with. There's a lot of stuff that individuals can do to get in if they want to put the effort in, instead of complaining about how their hands aren't being held.

At this current point in time, this is sadly the case. There was a time when it wasn't, though.

guild wars is a big place
there's a lot of game out there and half those guys that get refused high level pvp groups absolutely pwn at it

I suggest a random arena with more players or even random HA. It's way easyer to play pvp if you can join a game whenever you want without the obstacle of other players who WILL keep you from practicing because you lack rank.

HA would be more fun if it hadn't that invisible sign saing: "No noobs allowed"

Fortunately it seems like GW2 will give you way more freedom when it comes to that.

Never understend why pvers complain about rank discrimination and that leet pvpers don't want to play with them. Doesn't it obvious that good players want to play with good players?
I myself enjoy both pve and pvp. The place where i found how efficiency can be weapon swaping was various speed clears. Mean that while plaing mostly pve I realized how different aspects of the game works and then move to pvp with some friends It is how mostly pvpers become pvpers, right? Of corse in the biggining u get owned and it is not easy to find people to play with. But it was fun.
Play for fun not for titles or some cosmetic reward in gw2...And why force people to play pvp via some stupid titles? It is game, it's purpose to make people happy^^ I don't need another work. If zaishen title wasn't count as pvp pvers just be forsed to play some pvp for mounth of so, and most of them who doesn't enjoy it before will not after. And if u a pvper that means u either don't care about titles or easy can do 30/50.
sorry for baaad english

A bit off topic...but the rank system wouldn't be much of a problem if GW just do what many other PvP game does...a ladder system with automatic rank matching. Spending hours forming a lower ranked group just to get rolled in 30 seconds is the most stupid/unfair thing about the rank system. Thankfully I started my main account right at the beginning when everyone is rank 0...

I love seeing how people complain how hard it is to make your PvP rank, especially Hero while it isn't. It reflects only your laziness and bad motivations to actualy do something about it. Even when it was populair in the old days and even now it's plain easy.

Yeah that would be great thing. But it was somehow compensate when there was more active players. Gvg have some automatic rank matching (does it?) but with less players active my casual gvg guild often meet some top playes and we get owned by them
But all this fights with better players than we are make us better, we learn some new things. If u want to get better fight with somebody better than u. Just don't take looses too srs.

I want to say that force pvers to play pvp wouldn't change situation, some easy build and meta shifts can. I don't like build like sway or bbway, but some people are, and think that this kind of build are good chance to new players start pvp. I myself with my old pve guild do our first ha points playing lichway, was fun^^

Wording, my good friend. I said 'I am entirely confident that it will be better'. I did not say 'it will be better'. I have faith in ArenaNet, not blind faith.

We may have heard little, but what we have heard gives all the right indications that they are taking competitive PvP seriously. In a few months time they will do a couple of blog posts on PvP, and people will be blown away. I'd put serious money on that happening.

They aren't going to focus their marketing on PvP right now, because they are still in the process of tying down their biggest market - those strictly interested in the PvE. You start talking about competitive play when they still have fundamental questions about their side of the game and you will lose their attention.

First of all, there really is no such thing as 'competitive play in an MMO', other than Guild Wars 1, so that's a poor comparison.

Secondly, 6v6 is a far better size for competitive teams, and the drop-in/drop-out formats are inspired by pubbing in FPS games - a genre known for being highly competitive. Everything they have described so far sounds well thought out, and designed for a competitive game.

Keep in mind that a competitive game can't survive without casual formats to foster casual players. This is another major problem that Guild Wars had, which Guild Wars 2 shouldn't. While something like the drop-in/drop-out format may not appeal to you, it is vital to keeping a steady stream of people becoming interested in PvP and moving up through the game.

Even at it's strongest point, there was a ridiculous amount of recycling of players at the top of the ladder.

Capabilities of the Guild Wars 2 team >>>>> Capabilities of the Guild Wars Live team, talking strictly manpower. Guild Wars 2 also has way better development tools, designed to ease the workload of things like skill balances.

I agree that the last two years have left a pretty poor impression of how seriously ArenaNet takes PvP, but I don't think it's one that accurately translates over to Guild Wars 2. I hope not, at least.

If that was the case, why did we get skill unlock packs, observer mode, world championships, tournaments, automated tournaments, improved PvP rewards, enhanced PvP character creation, PvE/PvP split, codex arena.... The list goes on.

At release PvP was shabby as hell, and PvP centric guilds left in droves because of the unlock grind and poor support for competitive play. ArenaNet has worked hard on that since, and by 2008 had fostered a reasonably healthy and solid PvP community, with a decent level of support.

Had those competitive improvements been implemented at release, or close to release, who knows what kind of a landscape we could be looking at now? I think it would be very, very different.

Competitive PvP is played for the sake of winning. The thrill of victory, the joy of playing with a coordinated and tight-nit team. A competitive player needs nothing else. They certainly don't need shiny PvE stuff.

The promise of any significant improvement that benefits competition will far outweigh any snazzy pistols, amusing mini-pets, or trivial titles.

I agree , but this is as a high ranked guy. Just think for someone who never ever went to HA before . Considering the number of teams , the number of good teams ( 3/4 of teams playing ) , do you believe that inexped team will have much chance ???

I don't know bout the games you play but in all games I played about 80% of what I do will never be perfect or even good enough as exp. people when I am new. Joining as a new player and expecting to be the best (because it's a competitive game) is simply ignorant. Only if your hero rank would have been giving you extra dmg/heal would be unfair. If your new you supposed to gain exp and such therefore Zaichen Elite etc. Going into HA making a group and expecting to hold the halls for a number of consecutive wins slaughter off r14+ teams is just ignorant.

Maybe your forgetting all those "Good" teams had to take the same path and surprisingly started off with r0 aswell (oki cept account buyers wich were not aloud to speak of) and that those people not only know how to use the skills cus they took effort to read the discription, but can also communicate to make there team a team. If all those new people would stop complaining and took that effort into trying and learning wich can be done on there own in this game they wouldn't be unranked for ever.

HA is the only thing close to real PvP in this game ( even though its completely dominated by certain crowds and not easily available to all players). You want rewards for random arena maybe? What a joke. 95% of this game is PvE and 5% PvP, what you expect rewards to be based on ?

I think that anybody who has ever played any sport in real life is understanding how true these words are.

I would also add that you can be satisfied even after a loss, if you played a good match against someone who deserved to win. This is because in RL sports you play to grow up. Don't know if this applies to internet gaming too, though.

It really, really isn't.

Heroes Ascent has been a fundamentally poor competitive format from day one.

Yeah have you seen the crap you are going to get for completing HOM? haha everyone is going to look the same and walk around with the same items. It's just like they are doing in the free version of EQ2 hahah Albeit you don't have to grind forever to get the same stuff in EQ2 like everybody else has. EQ2 puts you on quest after quest to get your gear for your initial stuff. It's not leet and neither will the junk in EQ2 rewards as that free stuff or easy stuff to get never is. Just look at all the bonus items we got for certain preorders? A bunch of crap junk, bout the only good item was that hourglass staff out of all of it.

lmao lol You tell that to Randy Moss, Terrell Owens and Ojocinco hahaha These guys have no intentions of "growing up" because of real life sports. Real life sports is "all about MONEY" and rings and prestige and sticking it in your face and going to DisneyLand.

I said that Anet shifted focus from PvP to PvE due to recognized player preference. It doesn't mean that it completely stopped caring or anything.

The intent of GW from the beginning is that players would focus on PvE, but then explore PvP when they get tired of the grind or want to face humans for a change.

I don't think they ever really wanted guilds that do nothing but PvP and nothing but grind faction to own a town.

That's why factions will not be back in GW2 (at least at launch) and it's going to be "world pvp"

Besides, titles and the HoM exist to get people to play PvE and into the storyline again. With them diverting resources from GW2 to GW:B, they want this new content to matter.

I was very tired of the state of things in 2008 when it seemed the entire game revolved around the 2-3% of players who did high end GvG and HB.

Now PvE is going again, I even see people forming NM PUGs again.

PvE is mindless killing and far easier than PvP.

No matter what how you look at PvE its man vs Dumb AI. (Or Man + Dumb AI vs Dumb AI.)

This quote addresses the heart of the DIFFERENCE between PvE & PvP. Many posters in this thread have noted the observation that PvE is easier (fighting AI).

The underlying premise in PvE is that it's winnable MOST of the time. Gamers don't like to lose & there are fewer losses in PvE than PvP. If you're just breaking into PvP from PvE, then you're going to lose - ALOT. For example, I'm only Glad3 and I find that I regularly lose at least 4 out of 5 RA matches no matter what toon I use or what build I use. Because when you lose in a TEAM game, it's "generally" NOT just YOUR fault, & when you win it's "generally" not just from YOUR play. Like ALL SUCCESSFUL PvP (ie winners) it REQUIRES TEAM play – advance & retreat, attack the weakest enemy, kill the healers, look for tactical advantages on the field, etc... These same techniques are used in PvE as well... BUT, it's not only easier to pull off in PvE, there are other incentives...

Back OT:
Yeah ANET offers what could be construed as valueless items as a reward from HoM... But the point is they ARE offered which CREATES the INCENTIVE for gamers to PvE & to simultaneously avoid PvP (because there is virtually no contribution of PvP to the HoM reward). This is the structure ANET has created & it's presumably intentional - afterall the designers PUT thought into this structure.

ANET could have chosen to use the HoM to create EVEN SOME SMALL incentive to PvP. For example # of points per fame: R1 =1 point, R2 = 2, etc. Of course this could lead to MORE than 50 points in HoM. They could have chosen to implement lots of incentives. They simply chose not to. ANET chose to STEER players into PvE.

I agree with OP on this one...

3 points for years of PvPing is really disappointing.

Why would dedication to PvE be worth more than dedication to PvP? It makes no sense really. Just because PvP happens to have less titles then PvE? Its unfair in a lot of ways...

I would love to see some extra bonus points for champion and hero titles. Not because I just happen to have them but because a lot of PvP'ers think the same right now.

There is absolutely NO WAY to show my dedication to GW1 PvP in GW2 and that makes me very very sad. No title, no item, nothing...

And yet my examples clearly illustrate a consistent, if not increasing focus on PvP over the years.

Love how every PvP-related issue immediatly gets reduced to a "GW2-PvP will be shit" yes-no arguement.

On the issue:

I couldn't care less about what titles they add to HoM and which not (I got access to every PvP title anyways), I do care about the imbalance that exists between PvP-PvE.

When having in the back of the mind that GW originally started out as a PvP game (almost pure, the intire endgame was PvP), and now seeing how much grounds it lost to PvE doesn't really ease my mind on the previous mentioned issue.

I understand JR when he says he has faith in Anet, because Anet DID deliver an amazing game in 2005. I mean, it did go apeshit during the next 5 years due to clear incompetence and lack of care, but that's besides the issue. Anet is capapble of delivering, and that's all that matters.

But when you then see that there indeed hasn't been any in-depth talks about PvP, and now seeing less than 2% (rough guess?) of rewards from GW1 being PvP-based really shows PvP isn't the primary focus of GW2. This has been known, however, pretty much since NF release, but untill the HoM-reward update, we had no numbers or figures, only guesses. Now we have a ratio of which Anet seems justificable for granting GW2 rewards, between PvE and PvP that is.

Not calling shennannigans yet, but Anet has once again shown that PvP is definatly not the prime (or even secondary) focus of GW2, and that it doesn't even come anywhere close to PvE's worth.

Saying that you believe GW2 will have amazing PvP IS blind faith. There is not a single point of evidence proving otherwise, and there is enough proving it will be.

I still have a small shrink of hope left, but I fear I'll be buying WoW advanced graphics in a year or 2. Not saying that's a bad thing, GW2 has still got more than enough stuff going for it -no fee-, but I think the glory days (PvP) we all loved aren't comming back...

You're right that the GW player preference is clearly PvE but anet quit caring about PvP a long time ago. The only positive steps I can think of after Izzy completely ruined the game with skill buffs was the removal of heroes from PvP. Even then they couldn't just leave it be, there had to be a contest so PvE players could have a chance at a tonic and being immortalized as a henchmen. That and the zaishen zoo were symbolic of how idiotic anet's priorities were.

The latest crap with hall of monuments proves that all anet has to do to please PvE players is throw trinkets at them and everybody shits their pants with excitement for a few months. I swear if there was an eternal dildo award for 6 characters with every PvE title, every item, every whatever else it takes to fill a hall there would be people grinding it out for their shot at the dildo.

I know your right with this point. But you missed my point Im afraid. What I was sayign is that Players got really bad memories of PvP from when it was popular and when districts were full of "glf xx must be r6+ show Rank" or ragequitters in RA if there was no Monk on the team. These Memories is what is stopping many players at even thinking of Zoning to a PvP outpost and even attempt to join a team nowadays.

Its a Shame, because I find PvP is an integral part of Guildwars even though I never really played it. But like many games, PvP was killed by PvPers. Anypne left in PvP who actually has the heart for the game is now left in teh ashes of what it once was.

Apart from that.... I really dont get this thread at all. To simplify the point of the OP to the extreme;

"A PvP player is complaining that Anet are not honoring PvP players enough for a system that will give Rewards that you can nearly 100% exclusively use only in PvE in a game that will come out at some undefined point in the future."

The HoM Calculator rewards wont and cant give PvP players an advantage over others that do not have either GW1 or a maxed out HoM. This would completely ruin any fair form of PvP where the Maxime is the better player wins, not the better equipment. The rewards also have no ranking system of how well you play either GW1 or will play GW2 against other players. Its in effect exactly like the Zrank is now, or do you want to say that a Maxed out Zrank shows that you are a good PvP player?

No one is stopping you from putting more PvP titles in your hall. 13/18 Honor points are possible via PvP only. You dont have to play PvE (aside from getting to the hall)for minis, weapons, and possibly (i might be wrong on this one) pet companion. Which...lets do some simple math here...13+8+8+1=30......Wait what 30? Full item rewards from next to 0 PvE? Impossible!

Dont forget that it is theoretically possible to get Survivor on a PvP character as far as I remember which would also add one title which everyone automatically counts as a PvE exclusive... I dare soemoen to get Survivor on a PvP char plying PvP the way it is meant to be played though. lol

I should have used bold on storyline.

Finally! Someone else beside me who brings up front the fact that you can get ALL THE REWARDS even if you PvP.

Why are we all arguing here? Because you as a PvPer don't ID items after you open the zchest? Because you sell firewater, tonics and creme brulee and not use them for your titles? Because you cba to get M.O.X. in your HoM? Because you don't have all the skills unlocked?

For the third time in the same thread, 30/30 for HoM while doing PvP - where's the problem?

Really? How does that work? I mean, I can see somebody rolling an elementalist, throwing on the short skirt and flirting a little to get a couple free ectos from a lonely teenager, but PvP is a different ballgame. It seems to me that people in PvP are generally snotty no matter what: Innie or outie, all that matters is the WIN.
Besides that, isn't it a forgone conclusion that at least 50% of the female characters in this game are probably played by dudes? So how is this favoritism manifesting? Is it just based on cute female characters? Or does it tend to happen in PvP guilds where people are more likely to get to know each other on a deeper level, perhaps with a little help from Ventrillo?

Bitter, much?

Disregarding the fact that the entire PvP reward system was basically "Ooooh, look at the shiny cape and emote! So shiny!", there's absolutely nothing wrong with Anet actually catering to the market share that kept Guild Wars afloat. And that's PvE. The players spoke via comment and cash, and the game went in the direction that the customer base pushed it in.


Besides, this entire post is foolish. You can get every pet via zaishen faction (pick up M.O.X. on the way to the Hall, that's 4 points on Devotion), you get minipets on any character type (let's be conservative and say 3 points there), all your PvP titles can be applied (11 points in Honor), all your faction from AB/FA/JQ can be applied toward a single set of elite faction armor (2 points), you can use Zkeys to buy your entire Valor monument (8 points).......Hell, that's 28/30. All you need is a total of 20 minipets (sell more zkeys), and that will bump you up to the 30/30 maximum total of rewards.

So what are all the PvP people complaining about?

Those are the only two that seem to matter.....lol.

::: pulls up HoM reward calculator and a real calculator :::

Yup, I think thats /endthread

I count about 11 Honor points for PvP titles. Grab Mox and then Pets with balthazaar points(5 points). And lets face it, Minis, Weapons and Armor can all be bought(24 points). So if you dont have(11+5+24) 40 points just from PvP, you need to go PvP some more.

However, I think it would be a nice addition if you could display ALL the titles you earned from GW1 in GW2.

Why is everyone assuming PvP'ers need 30/50 and use that as an argument? I couldn't care less about those PvE items. Of course it's super easy to get 30/50, thats not the point here...

Not sure if you ever played PvP but it's a completely different world. Earning huge amount of Z-Keys and all statues takes lots of effort, training, coordination and time. Not to mention those years I played before Z-Keys were even implemented.

Facerolling PvE with faceroll builds and faceroll skills gets you 50/50 points faster anyway. Hardcore PvE'ers get 2 awesome top tier titles to bring to GW2 and we are left with nothing.

Obviously I played PvP for fun and not for titles but it's just disheartening to see we get nothing special for it in return. I think PvP'ers get very very little attention/respect from ANET.

I payed about $150 for all 4 of the games at separate times ofc but i to wanted the storyline and the team playing but pvp makes up a HUGE amount of the team playing because it does take interacting and strategizing with others to succeed or at least do it well, also when did these rewards ever become pve rewards? I will be able to use i.e the black moa or the warhorn for pvp aswell won't I? I'm not arguing for the cause of this thread because I'm sure the little troll who made this thread can take a break from pvp as I have to get some titles or armor or an exotic pet or 2 to get the rewards from HoM that we all are looking forward to come gw2

Shirley, you cant be serious.

I'm talking about HoM rewards here, not PvP in general sir.

Yet you have no more proof than I do. We're both just making an assumption.

That's why I said (earlier) that there's no reason for either of us to argue either point.

I was merely making the point that PvP would not be their primary focus, which even you admitted is true. Hopefully, it will be good, but it will not be a main focus.

Could you do me a favor and read back to yourself what you wrote?

Sure, done it.

And you know what, I still agree with what I said. I don't give a damn about all those PvE items. I want a special reward for all those years of PvP'ing. Obviously you are 50/50 without any PvP titles and you don't know what I'm talking about.

Chevrolet makes Corvette, although it is not their primary focus they still make a damn good car. I think ANET will do the same with PvP.