NEWS FLASH: ANET puts NAIL in PvP Coffin...

I lol'd.

The skill gap between PvE & PvP is far bigger than you think.

PvE and PvP are not "skill levels", skill levels depend on the personal ability of each player to learn and improve. You could spend your whole game time playing PvP and learn nothing. You're not a skilled player just because you have a title, a PvP guild or just much time to spend in arenas.

Generalize less, thanks.

So you're only a skilled player if you have a pve title, a pve guild and spend lot of time in dungeons?

Hmmm k.

Did I ever say that? I've been a dedicated PvP player myself, yet I don't feel that "skilled".

Skill has much more to do with personal aptitudes and mentality than the playstyle.

A lot of friends of mine where mostly PvE players and did just great when they moved on to PvP. A lot of PvP players I know couldn't find their way out of a paper bag when they started PvEing.

It's not just black or white. Just doing something doesn't turn you into a master of something, so simply assuming that PvP players are godlike-skilled and PvE players are poor idiots is a gross generalization.

I have had the opposite experience. PvPers who go into PvE & roll everything into the ground and Pvers who moved into PvP and simply ended up as faction to be farmed.

If you say it is, it must be true.

Well then, I'll take this sarcasm as a compliment. Been PvPing for three years before quitting, so I can safely assume I'm rather skilled. Thank you.

of course there are very crappy pvp players and very good pve players... that still doesn't change the fact that pvp is more demanding of skill than pve. no one is intentionally generalizing the playerbase, they are merely stating facts about the game modes itself.

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

That's great, good for you.

Logic is not welcomed here.

Obviously expoiting, ahem, killing scripted (stupid) AI takes more skill than killing something that can think for itself.

Don't fool yourself into thinking PvP is any less of a flowchart fight than PvE. Sure in pvp the enemies think for themselves but in pve the enemies get ludicrous buffs. Regardless, flowchart and counters win everything.

"More demanding of skill" sounds right, that was by design. Though this ended up being just one aspect of PvP.

The other side of the coin is:
Which, incidentally, is just the basis of the other QQ-thread about the Zaishen title.

With PvP turned into another farming place (another "fact about the game mode"), I'm having an hard time accepting the overly simplistic equivalence "PvP=Skill".

PvE and PvP look equally broken in this sense to me.

Pve is Guild Wars easymode, don't let your obvious bias get in the way of reality.

Players get ridiculously buffed in Pve aswell, Imbagons, ER Protters etc.

Yeah that's why A.net gave PvE players consumables, PvE-only skills and PvE versions of skills.

Someone already made a good point that PvEers also 'rank discriminate.' Go to Temple of Ages and see if you can join a UW or FoW group if you're not an Assassin, UA Monk, ER Prot, Necro or 100b Warrior. I'm sure a minority of groups MAY PUG the thing, but the exact same thing can be said within PvP. The 'discrimination' goes both ways so don't make it seem like PvPers are the only 'arrogant' or 'egotistical' ones.

Finally some sense, which this thread is lacking.

I'm not biased against PvP, I think it requires more coordination than PvE but you can't say it requires vastly more skill than pve when it's both a flowchart battle. Only redeeming thing pvp has are the high level tournaments (100k etc). Those are really cool because in those battles people are original and try really hard. Regular pvp is just pve but with more QQ.

Such is the fate of a game that bases itself on skillbar strategies. Yeah ER and imbagons are very OP but it all evens out in the end somewhat.

Well, I definatly see where you're comming from, and I never said PvE dind't require any skill.

I merely said that PvP simply is the harder format to master. And the only reason why you can even begin arguing is, indeed, the imbalance that exists in skills.

However, I argued with the actual format, rather than the playerbase in mind. (So not specifically GW, or even mmo's for that matter)


Similar in a RTS: playing against AI, or playing online (for example age of empires) are 2 different things.

Even on the hardest settings, a computer will have it's flaws (I remember a glitch where you could build a wall around the hardest AI's base, and he wouldn't move, at all) whereas against other players, the competition is (should be) as good as yourself.

well of course pvp is harder to master. Pve is the same all the time, pvp can differ (it rarely does, though).

The "PVP Community" has no one to blame for the failure of GW PVP but themselves. The vast majority have been elitist prats who do anything in their power to alienate people outside of their cliche. ANET built GW with PVP in mind as the endgame. They did everything they could to get people interested in playing it.

In the end, most non-PVPers have an aversion to PVP gameplay to begin with, and when they inevitably tried it out, it left a bad taste in their mouths and they never went back. The GW "PVP Community" has been shrinking pretty much since release. It hasn't been much more than a cesspool since sometime in 2006 as far as I'm concerned.

ANET has learned their lesson and they will never again try to focus on PVP gameplay as a main selling point for the franchise.

This is a pretty uninformed opinion. I PvP'ed heavily for the first three years since release and the main reason a number of players (including myself) left were because the metagame was stagnant, skills were not updated properly or quickly enough, UAX was not easily achieved (so that new players COULD join easily), etc. In short, players felt their needs were not being addressed. One could argue that A.net was trying (they were), but I'm not arguing about that. I'm merely stating how many players *felt*.

While I will agree that there is a vocal minority of PvP players that are rude and elitist, that is not (imo) the main reason PvP died. If many of those things above were addressed, you'd hopefully still have a tight-knit and active PvP community. You are generalizing an entire community and the demise of a particular gameplay on (again) a vocal minority or based on YOUR experiences. If you were not an active member of said community while it was dying, you would most likely not know why it died. I realize you participated in PvP near launch (and I recognize your guild having GvG'ed against them), but if you stopped within that year well...things were different when things started to die (~late-2006/2007).

Unlike your experiences, I had quite a bit of fun in the PvP community and met quite a few friendly and non-elitist players who I still continue to call friends so please stop generalizing. And for the record, I have also participated heavily in PvE since launch as well so don't go pigeon-holing me as "just another PvP player." In fact, to this day I still PvE with many of those same "PvP" players.

The problem is you're among a really small core group and missing the point that the mainstream of PVP is what has been a disaster. You guys can share all the lollipops and rainbows you want among your special, rarefied perfect PVP guilds, but everyone else just wanting to play a videogame has been treated to a huge helping of shit and doesn't care to PVP ever again.

Blaming human nature isn't very constructive. The core value of pvp is competition, naturally the format attracts players who want to improve and get better than others. Competition involves using cynical means, the carebear approach won't get you anywhere.

Competition in real life isn't any less cruel.

Outside of the fact that the most uncommon PvE accomplishments don't have any in-game titles associated with them, I agree with you wholly.

I don't mean to sound offensive when I say that it's because any legitimate PvP title requires skill in addition to time, compared to those two examples.

Because you PvE, you're an armbrace duper.

See, I can do that too!

You are wrong.

With regard to the rather noticeable lack of pvp statues, Anet seems to be of a mind not to force folks to play with or against other players.

One has to wonder why there hasn't been a move to add 7 heroes.

I mean, really, why not include pvp statues? They made a wonderful game, including both pvp and pve content, so why not honor folks from both persuasions? Are we really all just that narrow-minded?






Oh.....wait.....

I want to say two things about the idea that i see around here, that people that earned the difficult PvP titles should also be HoM-awarded, with those who achieved only the PvE ones. All generic "yous" here, as always.


I don't think that HoM has been added to state if you are a skilled and serious player or not.

If that was the case, then i would agree that PvP titles should count more than PvE ones, as it's my opinion that they actually require more skill to be achieved (when played the "right" way, not bought). Then you say: "but they can be bought, not earned". Yes, so do PvE ones, and this is the reason why watching only characters' titles it's impossible to decide if they're skilled or not, and this is a reason (with the next ones written below) why HoM shouldn't be considered a way to distinguish skilled GW players from less skilled ones.

Then, I think that HoM is only a mean to connect two different PvE storylines, so your PvE character in GW2 can go around saying that 200 years before, his ancestors did this and that. For this reason, in my opinion those who are (or think to be) skilled and serious about PvP, they shouldn't care about what is or isn't required to fill HoM, because HoM isn't meant to applaude good players at all.

I think that ANet did a bad mistake using that name "PvP statue": it's obvious that ANet never wanted to add a reward (namely, the 50/50) that only a little part of the community could/would achieve. They added a reward that almost everyone (talking about those interested in these kinds of rewards) could and would achieve, given enough playtime, for the same, old, reason: make people play GW1 more (and hopefully, also GW2). And they have been really successfull, since a lot of people who stopped playing have come back (like a lot of my old friends whose names in my friends list have been greyed out for years).


So, to summarize, i can think of 3 reasons why HoM isn't here to reward being a good and skilled GW players:

1-It's impossible to distinguish good players by their titles, since all of them can be bought or mindless grinded in some way. So no HoM will never be able to say who is better than who at this game.

2-HoM is made to connect two PvE storylines, and you don't have to be a good GW player to do something in GW1 worth of be remembered by your future characters in GW2 (for example, beat all campaigns, exploring zones, vanquishing, etc.).

3-It is against ANet commercial interests to present a reward that only a few players can or want to achieve. ANet want almost everyone to be able to reach 50/50 (the time to reach that goal before GW2 is out is enough even for casuals imho, and even for those who start playing now), because they hope that those people will buy GW2.


Back to PvP, I think that the best thing ANet could do to please his players from the PvP point of view isn't to add HoM rewards or such, but to make the updates that PvP needs in GW1. So it would make more sense imho if those who care about PvP were louder about skills updates and such than about meaningless (from the GW1 PvP point of view) HoM rewards.

Skill to play... RA? If you say so...

So let's put it this way: since this has turned into yet another "PvP is better than PvE" thread, can I ask why are you that upset about what really looks like a PvE thing to me (skill-less hoarding to get shinies into a PvE-set gallery into a PvE-only expansion)? Rewards offered in GW2 seem anything but a big deal, more like collector items for nostalgia.

You already had your wonderful reward: you got the skills, you got the pride, you're the elite of the game, so why bothering about bonus PvE items? A matter of principle?

If you want to make it a matter of principle, the HoM just shows the path taken by the game: GW being played by a majority of PvE players is simple fact, so the developer pleasing their majority of customers makes perfect sense to me. They're running a business, they're pleasing the masses, not the few in the PvP-elite.

I'm pretty sure that, if the Calculator required a "serious" PvP title, or more points for PvP to be complete, and than all those PvE players just flooded RA and brought their crap there, PvPers would have complained about it anyway. "The HoM bringing more skill-less noobs to PvP. Anet puts nail into PvP coffin". Oh, well...

I just wanted to outline that abuses and exploits run rampant even in the perfect, skillful, PvP world. If you think no PvPer never ever botted, nor cheated, nor abused of gimmicks, nor bought a title, or a ranked account... well, it's your problem.

But wait, weren't you among those asking for a fix to synching in RA last summer? So the problem IS there... Aren't those synchers just PvP-title farmers? Did I just dream about rupt-bots? IWAY?

But still, I'll stop talking as requested. Who cares, really, this thread is going nowhere.

Why does everyone equate "skill" with "elitism?" Have you seen Soul Wedding of the Last Pride monk? Did you watch War Machine's amazing comeback against LuM in the Semi-Finals of the first Guild Wars World Championship? If you don't think that required skill, teamwork and coordination than you clearly have a very different viewpoint than I do. Those players and teams are clearly more skilled than the other teams/players and it showed. Does that make them or anyone who thinks it's impressive an "elitist?"

Why do so many people automatically equate "disagreeing about PvP play" as someone who is an elitist? The term is thrown around so often that I sometimes question if people know what the word means. Isn't it just as likely that folks who have different experiences and tastes have differing opinions?

You should at least agree upon a definition of what "being elitist" means. To me it means someone who refuses to play with people who are not equal to or above his/her own formal rank or actual skill level. This attitude is usually accompanied by an obvious disgust for players not meeting these criteria.

In reality most, if not all, people want to play with good people and if the objective is difficult it will even become necessary to team up with the better players to achieve it. In most parts of pve the objective is easy so it's not necessary to discriminate or "be elitist". However you find the same "elitist attitude" when you try "high end pve", just go to temple of ages and see for yourself.

It is also less than uncommon to think that oneself is a great and skilled player, regardless of format. Most people think they are better than they are, which is in itself a hurdle to improvement. Again it's only human nature to protect one's ego so that you feel good about yourself. Failing in pve? Blame your team mates. Losing in pvp? Blame your allies.

Surprisingly enough, just because the word Random is in the arena title doesn't mean that results are random.

If there's to be no recognition for excellence in PvP in GW1, even though recognition is offered for even trivial PvE accomplishments, it's not a particularly good sign for competitive play in GW2.

It's indicative of how little you know about the subject that you lump all of those together in the same category. It's also an unfortunate sign that thse beliefs appear to be credible.

But really, when have any of these things been "rampant," other than bots earlier this year?

My idea for a fix was only presented as something that could be easily implemented.

You're missing the point.

The game is an establishment. We the players make our own goals based on the establishment. One player has decided not to purchase EoTN because they don't care about the rewards, while you're going ape over the way the rewards have been established. Between the two of you, who's right?

For this topic, all I'm arguing is that no one is right.

It's shiny PvE stuff for PvE players, that's it. How you think it has any relation to ArenaNet's plans for competitive PvP is beyond me, the two are so vastly unrelated.

What kind of recognition would you like? Perhaps they should carry over PvP titles? Maybe we can start Guild Wars 2 and discriminate against new players right from day one with our largely irrelevant Guild Wars achievements? That would be just fantastic, wouldn't it.

Is it really so wrong that noobs play with noobs? I'm sure if you were to organize your alliance to HA on a specific day you could monopolize the whole game.

If you want to make life harder for them, sure.

'Noobs' are the lifeblood of any competitive game, and everything possible should be done to encourage them.

Do you really think anet is going to add something in the game that's going to stop pvp guilds from carrying over to gw2 or people having recognizable names in the pvp community?

You're only hope is to trick or force pvp players to play with the inexperienced.

Let's take the reverse question : Why would someone who repeated the same thing 24/7 , farmed ectos ambrances etc and thus get easily 50/50 be more rewarded than some guy from Rebel Rising , who did win several GvG mats ??????

@ Gill Halendt : You obviously believe PvP is just a farm , but well , i don't think that beating humans is (always ) easier than beating mobs the same way 24/7 ( i.e DoA sc , UW sc , where the same tactic work always ) . Against humans , you need adapt , get tactics , etc...

Because they put in the effort to farm their ectos/gemsets and whatever other shiney they want,in what is a PVE DOMINATED GAME! There is nothing to stop rawr members or members of any other high ranked GvG/HA guilds doing PvE,infact I've played with some recently.

GvG has absolutely no bearing on what is,and what arenanet wanted to be a primarily PvE playerbase and I'm pretty confident most high ranked GvG guilds are aware of this..

You chose your side of the game thus made your bed,now shut up and lie in it! If you want the PvE benefits,do PvE

no, you're wrong, feel free to back your statement up with some evidence

however, why get excited? unfortunatly anet didn't achieve the pvp game it intended
to, but as long as you're having fun....

of course bbway has made HA no fun for pps like me, but i guess that's another story

PvE is not equal to PvP and thus why would it be rewarded the same way. For great PvP'ers there is the reward of people knowing you. And why is everyone aiming for the rewards. Isn't the fact that you play something you like (wether its PvP or PvE) a reward on itself? As long as you are getting no rewards its good, but once someone gets rewards more easily then you OH NOES OMG DONT GIVE THEM. Thats just selfish.

Beside that, the PvE'ers don't get many points for farming ecto ambraces and such they get the points for vanquishing and sorts. Thats a different thing. The one thing you actually get from PvP that is usefull is money (being in zaishen keys). So your argument is beyond absolute nonsense. With the z-keys you can get tormented weapons, opressor weapons and destroyer, so dont see a problem there. With balthazar factions you can unlock pets, making filling the fellowship part also not that bad to do.

Just the fact that most of the points are acchieved ìn PvE doesn't mean its way so hard for PvP. Its seriously so overexagerated. And to beat all campaings on a character just takes a week or 3. On the way you can buy shiny armors too. Just... Don't make a mountain out of this.

The game was primarily about pvp endgame but as time went on it was unprofitable because it was easier to recycle the same pve content than to create a new style of pvp. After buying one campaign you have all the pvp but you need additional purchases for all the pve.

Of course some guilds will carry over, and of course some people will have recognizable names.

There are many hundreds of veteran PvP players out there with high champ/hero titles, who you have probably never heard of. The knowledge and experience of these people would far better serve the game if they were scattered amongst the entirely new players, allowing them to share it.

This is nothing to do with tricks or forcing anyone, it is a basic design principle in a competitive game.

Unless you turn every match into a pve PuG where you have to teach the team that just wants to leeroy to play to the objectives than pvp will be organized and discriminate.
The point I was making with the guilds and recognizable names is that they are already organized and ready to move out to gw2 pvp unlike gw1 which became more organized and made a set playerbase over time. Also whats stopping people in gw2 from using you HoM calculator as a form of resume to get entry into a pvp guild like how you need high ranks now.