HA in Crisis

Most of the pve-ers are not angry, they are just disappointed, there is nothing to be angry about over a video game.
I read that obnoxious thread he posted and even take the time to bold out the content for others to read clearly.
Clearly he seems to be living in Guildwars and taking the "role playing" part as reality lolz. Nevermind him and his kind.


Actually i was thinking that the best way to bring in more players is to close the rank gap, the smaller the gap the more players will play and happier the majority of the players. Of course players will be happier if there is more format to play isn't it? its not like there is a need to fork out more money, its already paid for when we bought Guildwars isn't it haha!

Can you help think of so ways to assist new players to get into the game? Any suggestion?

Zkyes are everywhere, I'm just pointing them, cuz for me as a PvPer, it's the best way to make money in this game. However it's not the point. Instead of exchanging tokens for zkeys we indeed can just increase the faction amount for winning and killing. No problem, but really 5 tokens for one key is not going to do anything with thier price and i think if there were items like Voltaic Spear or Eternal Blade no one would care about skilly keys. We have a similar thing with zaishen coins already.

Also, I would rather stand with my proposition token per win, not token per fame. It would be just too easy for HoH farmers at dead hours (like wA do this in these days).

hey Hitsujit, i considered myself a PVE-er since the last time i even HA is like more than 2 years ago and playing nothing more than pve from then so i know how pve-er thinks so i can share some thoughts with u.

Your idea of trading token for customised "high end" items does not really work imo. It only rewards pvp-er with items they can use on pve that's about it, i do not see any way that it will be attractive to me because as a pve-er. With this mindset, i will not even bother to map into HA.

"meh, they got some tokens for winning HA to exchange for customised item, i will not even try, no point me going there and try to win"
that's my thought, it rewards pvp-er more than it is now with the implementation of your plan, nothing for pve-er.

Imo, trying to close the rank gap is still a better idea to grow the population slowly, there is no quick fix. like all economy, closing the income gap is a healthy one lolz

If you cant see the MAJOR flaws in ur suggestions then no comment.

You have missed the point I was trying to make.

I for one have no interest in collecting pve material. Just yesterday I gave away over 500 zkeys. My aim is to transfer the pve bunch to pvp. The fun of HA/GvG comes from winning (and not by farming). The whole PVE community can be motivated to play PVP by using pve rewards. If this system stays in effect for around 3 months, we will have mass influx into PVP. Once the 3 months are over, Would the new blood leave? Many will stay.

Why?

They have established a flist by playing for 3 months. Established guilds. A new Fotm perhaps. You can easily triple the HA population with my suggestion. Out of that pve lot, I am sure there are people with potential to become very good HA'rs.

Ill give u a few examples of perserverence. A few wks ago, you could see this guy Sar Uber Chet holding often. Ive never heard of this guys name before. He was obviously a new comer and started playing the game for 2-3 months where he built up a flist. Sure he was running an op build, but to hold halls properly, u must know how to split properly and block properly.

Another example is this guy called Gold Kette. He has been playing air ele with bsurge etc for a few months now. (he is not team leader but just a member). When i used to see his name, I used to tell in my team chat - free fame. Over the weeks, Ive seen a tremendous improvement in their team quality to the effect their spikes are better and they actually can block the ghost on the right places (which many r12 + teams cant).

People require a chance in HA in-order to prove what they are worth. Even if 1/10 of that pve community have great potential, that will translate to us high rankers (who dont pvp cuz of lack of good ppl) establish better teams down the line.

I never take pugs usually. Even if I have a pug, Its usually 1 person, and are r12 +. But I am always looking for new people who I can give a shot. If I See your name win halls often, I take that person and give them a shot. I once took a r7 guy and he has been with me since. He does make mistakes but I thought for a r7 he has higher ability.

We need to get more potential players to actually show their potential in HA. Thats what I want. My suggestion will enable this to happen while safeguarding excessive inflation. It does not need to be 1k /win. It can be anything that makes it worthwhile for pvers to play HA. Most of us know Pvers will lost most matches because at the moment, HA is dominated by r10+ only. If there is a huge influx of players, the ratio of r10 + : pvers will go down and actually give pvers a shot at farming a few maps.

Sure there will be more ganks on Hoh split maps. No one ganks at relics. And in koth, if you hold 6 pts straight , u will probably lose because one team resigns. In split maps, even if people try to gank you. You can win if you are good depending on how bad they are. Currently I play a very OP build and we lose koth split maps. While my team mates QQ about ganks etc. I know for a fact we played rubbish by not blocking/splitting right - Ill leave it at that.

The purpose of this thread was to discuss "HA in crisis". I was merely pointing out a rectification. I am sorry if you thought I was filling my pocket.

getting rank3 is very difficult for beginners, and that is the title you need to show that you have done some HA. IMO if you can wear the rank1 title, it should help beginners to pug.

r0-3 for me was the most fraustrating time in HA.

That guy was already r8 when he played Ha again , and that's not a good example since his flist was online 24/7 , which wont be the case for most new players in HA . Aswell , i'm not gonna argue about hall wins since it relies on pure luck ( on 3 way ofc , considering most 1v1 blue team wins whatever ..).

Point is starting from nothing from now is almost impossible. I just logged twice today , morning there were 3 r11 balas , and afternoon its r9+ bbway festival. Both cases any " fair build " r0-7 gets rolled fast. Add to it inactivity on normal week and ....

The only thing if we make " more pvers play HA " would be however to make Hall map a little more fair , especially when 1 on 1....

You just contradicted yourself.

Look at Zquests. When they were first released there was a large rush to HA, new teams could eventually beat other new teams in UW enough times to turn in a Zquest. No one got better at HA, no one stayed. In GvG towards the bottom of the ladder teams would often say "want to roll?" I don't even need to discuss Zquest in HB.

If people are playing for a reward they aren't playing for the enjoyment of the game or the enjoyment of winning a game; they are playing just for that reward. Do you really think people get enjoyment out of UWSC or DOASC itself and not the rewards?

At the start they do get enjoyment. After 20ish runs, then the enjoyment runs out. (at least that's how it was for me)

Today out of boredom I decided to go try some HA...something I will not be doing again anytime soon. Absolutely horrid experience.....If one needs any understanding of the entry barriers to this format Int dist on HA weekend, on HA zq day is the place to go see it. Very dissapointing to say the least. Cant' believe I'm saying this, but maybe Anet should do somthing to this format to change it.....until then I don't believe I'll be returning to the format.

I am saying that pvers will come to HA for farming. IF they do it for a few months, they will know how to farm better using a better team/build/flist. Then , they actually become competitive. They get hooked on to the format. They will stay. End the pve rewards. The hardcore farmers will leave. The established ones will stay.

I made alot of people their bambis when I was low ranked being leader of a bspike guild, when i decided to take a break from GW because of school and part time job, they all went back to pve or left the game, none of them stuck along, I do MEAN NONE. I helped some people get their tiger when i made another guild later down the road, about 3 of them went to pve after they got their tiger and others started being inactive. And some people raged the game after they got their birdies(entire woom core). The bottom line is that too many people leave HA, mainly due to the fact that the system is sooo flawed/boring/complicated. Any system to increase reward will just inflate the market and will not change what is fundamentally flawed with HA, and people will eventually start leaving. Anet needs to change the system currently in HA(relics, capture points, King of the Hill, 3way halls). Having this many objectives just makes HA too complicated for beginners to understand. (even 90% of r13 players have no idea what is going on in capture points) A fun game is usually very easy to get into and clearly HA isnt. You need at least 100hours to have some understanding of how all maps work.
But anyways theres really no point in getting into why HA is flawed because ANet dont have time to invest in this arena. If you want HA to be more popular, you really have to petition to Anet to have more of their employees in the live team and get people who actually can post good ideas and are not self interested.

Don't pug. Pugs are not a method of entry. Pugs are a deadend, or at best a non-sequitur.


Oh they absolutely should. It is just nothing like the HA of old days. While they don't want to promote "holding" builds that can hold HA for hours, the fact that you cannot do that means less serious players and groups are no longer going to participate.

That's all the point. Upon all PvE guilds i joined recently , i don't believe it's really the case. People are willing to play hours and hours of DoA , UW just for the rewards . An other example is people who did 100+ stacks of tot bags ....
Only thing i played for fun in this game were HB tourneys , now i passed on farming some greens from sorrow furnace and crap ( i was amazed when 30 people told me " greens worthless bro , just go uw its better " ).

Most players just rage quit after ANY lose ( fun especially when 1 hour form lose uw from dc ) , and that's why pugging ,as Reverend Dr said , isn't really the best choice.

this is where your wrong from the narrowminded pve perspective, every role in ha is no longer a bitch role, every role is as important as the backline frontline.

olders pvpers in the game have gotten smarter(but not neccessarily better), we were all crap 3+ years ago if u think about it.

pvers on the other hand have not improved(i still see flare every now and then on rway), every doublefame weekend you will see fail pver builds people try to farm fame/quest, instead there feeding fame, just today i saw fail unholy feast necro eoe bomb, sadly enough we took out there eoe and they suicided without taking 1 person below 90%, also saw a ride the lightning,eleball, sfspike which also failed miserably.

YOU KNOW THE SAD THING IS, they probably took 2 hours to form/give out bars, then when they get stomped and rage quit is inevitable, this is why HA is dieing because people want the easy way out, they think they can just think of some terrible nuking builds and steamroll people, the furthest they will get is burial mounds, anywhere beyond is just a skip or vsing more tools.

ganking is a small problem, as long as 3 way is here ganking will occur.

theres not much you can do to make ha active, the pvers will never learn to get good or decent especially after 5+ years. they have simply started too late, winning these days is not hard due to inactivity, but there will usually be 1 decent team that would be holding during the peaks of the day american / euro

While I agree with you on the fact that nowadays people don't give a shit about HA, but rather about their rank, you give a really bad example.

I mean, no offence fierce, but you were WoOm.WoOm, the all day every day guild which had 8 swayers running balanced for 1/2 years straight with everyone playing EXACTLY the same role day in day out. Me and nick talked on vent each day how the hell you guys managed to even launch guildwars at the start of the day when you know you're just gonna do the same thing over, and over again.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm in the same sinking ship as you are, all my friends left aswell, but they left for different reasons. We all enjoyed HA because I let my friends run different kind of builds. We ran balanced, we ran spike, we ran pressure, we ran whatever crazy build I, or my friends, could come up with. THIS is HA should have been played by everyone, rather than go in with one build and farm the living shit out of it.

I mean, I've littereally farmed 10K ritspike fame, but that hardly compares to the 50/60K fame I've got running various other builds. This is why I, and my friends, managed to stick around for so long. For us, HA wasn't a chore where you have your guild bitchbar players (everyone has em) play the same bar day in day out, but rather they could play different bars every day.

This is also why, in the glory days of dent, we steamrolled litteraly every guild (You can deny it all you want, you didn't beat us once lol) with balanced, because our bitchbar players, flawed as they were, had experience in every build and knew how to counter them.

When you stick to one gimmick for all your fame, you don't learn how to play HA. You don't learn how to play PvP and most importantly you don't learn how to enjoy PvP. Instead, you learn how to play a lame gimmick, and you enjoy it as long as it lasts. Then you leave HA under the illusion you know it like the back of your hand, and that you really are a good player.

Triple melee is a good example for the GvG scene, aswell as hexway and the Paragon/Ranger spike. So many players stopped playing after certain builds got nerfed in the past. Why? Because they never played the format, but rather a build. A build that now got nerfed, and for them this creates the illusion the format is nerfed.

Oh Borat

Fierce is pretty dead on in his post. So many people perpetuate a stereotype that PvP players don't ever help new players, yet I've been there for helping somewhere from 30-50. One of them still plays (only when I AIM him to get on).

As far as HA itself if you don't like PvP you aren't going to like HA (big surprise). If you do like PvP you will like GvG more than HA. The only thing you can do in HA that you can't in GvG is have success with terrible gimmicks. It really should be no surprise that HA has no balanced left and everything being run are gimmicks.

So...

HA Crisis: Most Probable Causes [Highlights]

• Rank Discrimination/Stubborn Uncooperative Newcomers,
• Imbalanced Maps/Skills/Collision-Abuse,
• Roll-face Gimmicks...

Did I leave anything out, here?

I watched fights from GvG mat and i saw almost everyone running triple melee ranger necro. So yes , it's not comparable to Bbway from HA , but still....Most guilds that played anything else than that or bsurge + water ele got 2/4 or 1/5 , so i can't speak about non terrible gimmicks in GvG . Actually , biggest problem come from stance monks : if both use same build , it leads to 25mn fight , win given to first who did 2 sec mistake ; if opponent doesn't play that build , they get steamrolled whereas they cant kill because of mo/w

This thread is probably going to get closed anyway since it has turned to flame each other , but rank discrimination isn't really that much a problem compared to :
1- non fun builds
2- terribly unfair maps + ganks
3- 1- and 2- leading to total inactivity for some hours

1. non fun builds because of constant nerfs, as much i hate vsing bbways its a good challenge. rspike and bspike was free fame for any decent balanced team also nerfed, wasnt a problem at all they get blitzed on cap points all the time.

2. several bad maps like fetid, its so goddam dark, 3way in general esp at halls is quite flawed, but good teams can counter ganks

counter ganking doesnt always work because you dont know how the other team is going to react. For example
1 you are blue, yellow runs to ur base and you decide to run to red. Red can decide to run back to their base to defend. In this situation Yellow wins.
2 you are blue, yellow runs to ur base and you decide to run to yellow. Red then caps middle. Red wins.
3 you are blue, yellow runs to ur base, and you decide to to send enough ppl back to your base to defend. You lose middle, red has the most people there so red wins.

And you need consider this only applies for capture points.... Borat already argued about 2 other maps : KoTH 1 team gets " ganked " whatever , and relic is either direct gank either pure luck on last secs....
However , kill count could be nice in fact to counter ganking .

Looks like the people that do care about HA are all posting in this thread, all 5 of them, and it also is nice seeing how most are looking at this from a different perspective IE: How/Why we started playing and what we enjoyed about the format.

Basically everyone that gives a shit, played HA when it was Altar Cap and were hooked ever since.

The people that didnt get the chance to play HA back then, come in, maybe get bambi and leave, everyone that is "old school" is hanging on to the format maybe with false hopes that it can be like it was.

But the truth is, there is still fun to be had even today, for me the fun is only from playing IWAY, I dont really care how it makes me look as a player, or that I dont learn the format, I just like to pit the build against other builds and learn how to play vs the other meta builds, for me that is fun and enjoyable.

I have personally also made many Bambi's, and wolves by taking other players in my teams, not really caring about fame until I got R8 and had a decent Flist already, at that point I really just stuck to Flist so I could get the Tiger emote. But I pugged low ranks almost my entire HA existence, only made possible by easy lame gimmicks, how else is a r0-r3 player supposed to butt heads with exp. r12's that play every build.

I can remember HATING 6v6 because it was so much fun prior to be able to pug up an IWAY team in 10 seconds, go in for 3 consecutives and think you were amazing. When it switched to 6v6 it was still a decent format and I converted a PvE guild into an HA guild in a matter of 3 days running a 6v6 version of IWAY, the guild got r3 so easily and first halls wins before these players even had an emote.

Kill Count basically IMO was the deciding factor that dumped all the players out of the game never to return.

Im not bragging, I dont take myself seriously, I play on dial up and I really have no experience outside of IWAY to talk about in depth reasons why HA is flawed or offer "competitve" suggestions to make the format more amazingfrom a PvP perspective.

I am trying to focus solely on the fun factor for CASUAL PLAYERS and those players are what is lacking from HA, not fame farmers. And IMO and from my own experiences pugging, the game was fun and lively when Pugging WAS a good option.

So think about what everyone is saying and learn from it, the vocal Minority that wants to see this as a competition, has it wrong, it should be challenging otherwise winning wouldnt bring much satisfaction, but the main barrier to entry "PUG" needs to be broken down. This has absolutely ZERO to do with rank discrimination, in fact quite the opposite, all the R0-R3 teams grind and play actively so they can get into the "good" r6-9 teams when they get there they continue to want to get to the r12+ teams so they can farm better, point is, if people could just get ON A TEAM and play the format would benefit.

As far as Fierce saying that awarding fame per map would destroy HA, that suggestion applies more to dead American times than Euro times, and you dont get 24 fame from going to HOH, you still have to win, so yes I think you should get the reward even if you skip from UW (if you win HoH) it would be almost no different than the current system, it just removes consecutives and awards what you WOULD have made had you not skipped maps, simple, and you still have to win.

If you can counter the gank, it's not a gank.

If you have team against you that truly wants to see your blood, you won't win no matter what you do.

Unless, ofcourse, the third team is an unranked randomway or something, and even then.

yes if u can counter a gank its still a gank, u obviously you dont win much cap points unless a bad team like dong ganks for you, when gankers full team your base its a gank, most bad teams ie. you, would probably try to hold there own or resign

like the other day i was playing dong full teamed our base, yellow not being dumb that dong would have 2 bases, splitted to their base, we took yellows base, then it was everyone fighting for altar, ultimately we recapped our own bases, we won by a 4 point margin and was quite an even match. turning a gank into a match where every fights against each other. dong will full team ur base, and they will stay there till they wipe if you try hold it against them, if u start splitting early, dong will
attempt to play to win, and thats how you beat this bunch of bads.

and like fierce said it doesnt always work if the other team doesnt react the right way, same concept just different colors, other team must split to dongs base.....

king of the hill is the easiest map, timed deaths on your infuser 5-8 seconds before respawn on altar is what wins matches, if your getting ganked and wiped after timer then your obviously bad

only situation where you cant counter a gank is relic

The last time i did HA was with a an old guild, that was more of a GVG guild, and HA was more of a kill time practice. That was 2 years ago.

When i would try to pug it, nobody even wanted to hear anything from me because i was not rank 7+, that limited my HA to guild only, and as i said they did not do allot of HA at all.

Before i joined that guild, i was always in PVE guild, that would occasionally pvp. When those guilds would attempt to make an HA party, we would take in anyone that wanted to join if we had a spot to fill, but.... the low ranked "lfg" people were extremely rare at that point already, and, those who were "lfg" were usually rank 7+ who did not want to know anything about our parties, even if we would be rolling the exact build that would be popular at the time.

really, the problem is the rank discrimination.

most of the old school HA PvPers have moved on to other stuff, the game is 6 years old (?) at this point. The Pve people were scared off by rank elitism, and the HAers who stayed continue that tradition not "allowing" newer players (or people newly interested in pvp) to join and get that high rank. They simply dont want to spam for 2-3 hours to get a pitty party taht will most likely quit after 1-2 rounds

Either add Hero points to more then just HA, or remove that rank all together, maybe then people will take a shot at it again.

but that will never happen because many people worked hard and allot of those ranks.

Maybe drop or at least lower the rank requirement to fill your parties? I understand why people are asking for ranks, but playing with 'lesser' players (which I don't really agree on because rank isnt skill) is better than not playing at all right?

Point is that they did Heroes Ascent really poorly. It would have been more logical if HA was 8v8 , with those map objectives , with no heroes , and now actual HA 6v6 , heroes allowed or not , and holding ( or killcount ) .
If we just think , kill count is really more fair than crap objectives.
Who does actually get fun by running relic 7mn then just crossing fingers last sec ??Who does get fun by wasting time in 1v1 koth whereas infuser keep suiciding at .03??

Every format and every mode is clearly unfair , and kill count now would prevent gankings + make more tactical things which wouldn't work in other formats ...That's not the same at all , but when i saw last time in GvG r40 full human guild beating Pvers ( with 4 heroes )only thanks to flag and r/mo + war in their base ( they killed lord like 5 sec faster ) , i clearly realized that there was a problem....

if you reintroduce kill count people will just run EoE. 1 skill kills the entire system. Kill count will not prevent ganking because there will still be teams just trying to wipe the team they dont want tow in. If you are dead, u cant score kills.
Back when killcount was introduced in the 6v6 days. SWAY with 2RaO 1trapper 1splinter rit, 2n/rt was the most popular build. Usually 1 team would be leading 10points, EoE explodes and Sway gains like 20points(exageration but thats what basically went down.) and wins.

The cluelessness in your post gives me a faint taste of euro in my mooth...

Do you really think I haven't thought of the famous Chamalee: "Go for the third team's base" tactic when faced with a gank?

That whole tactics is based off the fact that:

A) The third team is retarded and just lets you cap their base.

B) The team wanting to gank you will just do RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO all after they cap your base, and thus not really ganking you, but just going for your base.

C) The ganking team being retarded.

You're assuming 3 things which were assumed untrue for this discussion to even begin. Clearly you should rethink the steps you took to understand the mistakes you made in your reasoning.

If a team wants to gank you, no matter what map, no matter how good you play, you can not stop them.



For example, another one of your flawed example:

If a team ganks you on KoTH, you can counter the gank by letting your Monks die before timer, so you can hold for 8 points straight.

I mean, really? No shit sherlock, that's pretty much how you're supposed to play, and hasn't got anything to do with ganking.

If you can hold for 8 points straight when not getting ganked, you can hold for 8 points straight when getting ganked, because a team ganking you doesn't suddenly gain a damage boost or anything. Vice versa: If you can't hold 8 points straight when they're not ganking you, you won't hold 8 points straight when they are ganking you.

Point being: No matter what map you're on, a gank is always disbeneficial to your team, and almost always results in a loss for your team.

The one exception here is, as mentioned before, holding for 8 points straight on KoTH, which irony much, is the closest one to old-school holding, but holding for 8 points straight isn't related to ganking, and a different matter alltogether.

@ Fierce:

I don't know if you played during 6v6 days (I think you started later), but people sure as hell didn't run EoE back then.

Spikes, or big aoe damage were the way to go then, with nearly no hex metas or any sort of "pressure" build around. People just ran in, spiked something, and ran back out.

Thinking back of it, those were lame days, but not nearly as lame as loosing Cap Points due to a gank, or simply because you don't have enough nuking power to throw off a holding team. As a matter of fact, if you add up all the shitscenarios that occur every day with the current shitconditions (last millisecond relic cap, etc), any smart person would take kill counter over this shit any day.

Atleast with kill count, YOU controlled YOUR victory. Even if this meant running a spike build, atleast YOU had the control, not the other team, or luck.

Kill count was flawed in it's own way, but hell: it is BY FAR a better format than relic run or cap points.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/t...9.html?t=79839

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/h...es%27+Asce nt

to enlighten you guys that this thing that most of you guys are talking about has been around for 5-6years.

highlights of the past.
" back then there were no titles so you were either 3 or nothing, there were often simply not enough people in the district to make a 8 man team. "-GW 2006

so if you eliminate rank, there will be NO ONE to play HA.

i think you need to relax, just because you dont win when your getting ganked it doesnt mean its always a definite loss. just because you havent improved after 5 years+

Kill count really??? so bad teams like you can run some gimmicky spikes...

why did u even mention chamalee what has he got anything to do anything.

cap points, why would the ganking team stay in your base and do f all when your not even there, and already at the third teams base, your logic is idiotic, the third team obviously would want to win, if there smart they will go to the ganking teams base, otherwise the ganking team will be in the lead, if there in the lead why wouldnt they play to win?

your post if full of anger(maybe because i called you bad )
maybe your taking my comments too serious

i can set you up some counselling from my good friend purge, you guys will get along just fine.

I think a quick fix to increase more players is to change golden gates to map 4. The reason for this is because that way beginners can just learn the basic idea of 8v8 PVP, which is killing. There they can learn positioning, skill usage, viable skill bars, importance of morale boost, coordination with their teammates. It will also give them an incentive to play since in the 4maps, they can farm 10fame, which isnt alot but will be worth their time(10fame>6fame) I belive this will make farming rank3 easier and It wouldnt change much of the value of fame since any1 wanting to get r6 or more has to do better than 4consec wins. Of course a con to this will be more gimmick builds to farm these first 4maps. But imo it will be balanced on skill level. I believe that only beginners will run these gimmick builds just to farm 10fame to get rank3. Getting rank6 farming 10fame a run will take a long time, and getting rank9 with farming these first 4maps will take MONTHS. As in any1 serious in getting high consecs(getting higher rank) cant run these gimmick builds as past map4, they need to spec for relic runs, KOTH, splits. What this does is that it will balance beginners with lame gimmick builds with serious experienced teams that run holding builds(snares,song haste,rupts). In laymen's term, For the first 4maps balance is like this: noob playerskills, but better build VS experienced playerskills, but slightly worse build in comparison.
And not only that it is very simple to implement for Anet.

Kill count is terrible.

If one team is clearly superior they win, no big surprise here.

If one team is clearly worse, then both the other teams farm just that one team.

If all three teams are roughly equal and competent (hardly happens if ever), then things can be interesting. I played a good bit back during 6v6 and I think this has happened once.

Of course there are problems with how kill count determined who got the point. It doesn't count life stealing and I don't believe it counts degen. It looks at which team did the most damage in the last few seconds before a target dies. It highly favors spike play over pressure play. I've seen too many cases where a team gets points that it did not deserve just because of those mechanics.

And if its 1v1 killcount, then it is really just deathmatch with a different name.

dp needs to be present in halls, this will make people play smarter, ofc holding team dp resets every new match to the morale they entered with

Terrible argument. Nothing bad in fact than best team do win and worst do lose. The point is that the fight should be FAIR for the worse team at least ( an unranked team will have more chances to beat a r12 bala on killing than on koth or relic i guess....)

@ Fierce : If red team decides to gank blue team , then they will have more points and yellow team might decide to kill red with blue , etc... You can't blame red team then for ganking if they win ....

I think people forgot how Killcount and 6v6 worked, but Killcount is Build wars. 6v6 is buildwars at its FINEST

That may be fine and good for people to go farming, but it killed the format because nobody wanted to play Rock Paper Scissors when you go in with scissors, win a couple and face rock and auto lose.

Its like you are always saying 1v1 vs the holding team = auto lose, this is 6v6, killcount.... not if you are the ones abusing the mechanic, then you auto win, but you lose more population that doesnt like to play that particular style of play, that is basically fame farming in its purest form where you dont even enjoy what you are doing, you simply want to win.

The only way to get people to play HA is to make it fun and accessable, the fun part is close to being there IMO, if you get to play every map, its fun, but the problem is Pugging, which is the way Casual players play the game, sucks the fun out of it because you are so unlikely to get a match let alone win one, due to lack of other pugs to face. If they can remedy this hangup, you will see people start to play again.

Kill Count was HARDLY as worse as you guys make it out to be. It didn't have anything to do with RPS, but rather spike vs pressure. That being that pressure was completely useless and that spiking simply was the way to go.

When 2 teams engaged at eachother, a third team could just spike out both teams engaging at eachother.

This is flawed in every way possible, I'm not saying it isn't. However, compare this to Cap Points or worse even Relic Run. With Relic Run you litterealy have 5 people doing nothing for the intire match, and 3 people doing something in the last 2 minutes.

I mean, let it seep through. You're playing a game where the objective is to wait 5 minutes, only to engage in the last 2 minutes, all this on top of the fact there is a good chance it'll just come down to last millisecond cap, which hasn't got anything to do with build, skill or map, but rather the single factor called luck.

You can keep calling me bad, we both know who swayed his rank.

Chamalee was the first one to employ the "Go for third team's base"-tactics. I don't expect you to know this, because I think you weren't even ranked during those days. In the early days of Cap Points, EVERY team just sat in their base when they got ganked deseperatly trying to fight of the ganking team for 8 minutes. This was mainly because even during these days, people were already shit, and had no clue how to play this game. Me and Chamalee were the only ones trying different tactics in order to wave off a gank. I gave up after a couple of tries because I realized the map design is just so bad, there is no way you can win when you've got a single team constantly screwing you over. Chamalee kept using these tactics untill every just copied him, and it became a general strategy.

However, in more recent days, now that Germans and Frenchies have taken over HA, and we all know how good their tactics are , this "go for third team's base"-tactics is a lost art mainly because 90% of these bbsway teams are ventless.

I kinda feel like Dale from Pineapple Express trying to explain Saul the car radio died. (If you remember this scene) I simply can not make you see an obvious truth, and I have no more methods of attempting at doing so, so I'm just going to lay it out one last time:

If you're playing Cap Points, and you have a full team constantly snaring you, blocking you, killing you and decapping all bases you cap, the third team which has pretty much free bases to play with, on top of the fact they got no opposition whatsoever, will get the most points. If they don't, they're an unranked, or bbsway, team which have no clue how to play HoH and thus this intire discussion is pointless, because then we're arguing retarded people playing HoH.

@ DP in HoH, HoH used to have DP, and it was one of the best mechanics. Why they removed it, I'll never know (I do know, the balance team, Izzy, is retarded). The holding team got a moral boost every 2 minute mark.

Again on the Kill Count thing:

I'm not in favor of bringing KC back, however, the initial statement was that KC is a better (read: less worse) mechanic than Cap Points and Relic Run.

The latter 2 are completely uncompetitive. They turn GW into a game of psychology, where alliances, nationality and your friendlist become more important than player skill.

Atleast with Kill Count, lame as it is, YOU controlled the victory by picking a decent spike build. And heck, if I have to choose between running a build with spike potential in order to win, or have my win depend on my alliance, friendlist and nationality, I'dd still rather take the build wars.

Cap Points and Relic Run are complete shit. The bottom of the bottom. The little stream of liquid shit that drips out of a bag of shit in the bottom. Every other mechanic of format looks good compared to these 2, and they should've gotten removed after the first week they got implemented.

I actually recall Anet doing a poll here on guru wether or not the community liked these new maps, and there was a mass appeal to remove them, yet they still implemented them.

This is how kill count works with your example. If red team decides to gank blue team, then they will be trying to kill blue team. How can they just get points because they trying to "gank" blue team. You have to kill first and killing takes time. So what happens is that yellow team will wait til both teams are pressured and go in to steal kills. Because waiting will be soo beneficial, it will just be a waiting game. The first team to do something will just lose. This plus what Dr. Reverend said. There was a reason why kill count was removed, WOW seriously.
History repeats itself ok. Be nice if people can say what kind of HA experience they have for posting. Why? because most of these posts have soo many false statements in them.

PS not going to argue with my fanboy because there was a few threads elsewhere where his credibility was destroyed already. I can go here and do the same to the false statements hes putting in this posts but thats what trolls want

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...html?p=5219309
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/b...0445080p6.html

Exactly. I'm not saying that Killcount must come back , but that having only kill count would make a much more FAIR(yes , i like this word ) hall map than it is right now . That's the same for Heroes in HA in fact. I know it was crap , but it's still better to play with/against heroes than just having to wait hours because noone to play or no opponent ....
It's just gonna be a waiting game but come on ... The only equal chances for blue and red to win in 1v1 are Capture points...And in 3ways ,such as KotH which is the worst , you most likely have to adapt a pro strategy to win( think if ghost dies at 6 pts , will 3rd team /resign? ; if we let ghost die at 4 pts , will we be able to kill holding team before 3rd one resigns , etc... and i'm not considering joke ghost cap times or cap not even on stairs...) or to just rely on pure luck ....

No.

That weakest team will be farmed. That weakest team will forever be getting 2v1'd. How do you come back from that? How do you get kills when you only have eight players for a few moments after a team rez (and don't kid yourself, the fight is going to take place on top of your rez shrine)?

People don't like getting 2v1'd. Kill count is a guaranteed way for this to always happen to the weakest team. What about this is a good idea?

Really relic is the easiest way for a weaker team to win a match in halls.