Skill Balance 13/11/2010 - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

14 Nov 2010 at 17:49 - 161

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

It's a shame A.Net seemed to think that this was a good development.

Well, before the PvP and PvE developers had to agree to make an update, after the split they didn't. So now we get to see the results of each side doing whatever they wanted! Making the split removed a barrier keeping the game healthy. Removing it made it easier to make targeted changes (which can be good!) but also a lot easier to make bad changes (yeah...)

...yeah. So hopefully they've learned a bit for GW2.

In general the types of things causing the most problems in PvE were things causing lots of trouble in PvP, and were kept under control by the link. Sure, skills and archetypes have different high points in different environments, but the same themes are relevant everywhere. The difference is, in PvP, there's an emphasis to bring everything extreme back into line (and usually endless complaining about anything that beats an individual player's preconceived preferences); in PvE, there's just a rush to exploit an imbalance, and the people who chose poorly at character creation complain that they don't get their overpowered candy too.

...which is to say that there is a lot of self-serving complaining and demands for changes that would be bad for the game from players of all stripes, and that they need to be very critical of all feedback received.

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

14 Nov 2010 at 18:19 - 162

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok

Ensign, could you do everyone a favor and pleasantly give us your thoughts on this update?

Thanks in advance.

I'm still figuring it out, which is a sign of a good update. It wasn't a very big update but it was targeted, and the effects of it haven't settled yet.

It's an iterative process, where people have to first figure out the micro implications (I.E., adjust their bars in reaction to the changes), which then have macro implications (Everyone changed their bars! We need to adjust!), which repeats itself. I haven't observed anyone even trying to play hexes and sins since the update (yes, hexes were nerfed, but hello, Healer's Boon / Heal Party is gone!), so there's no way to say whether the changes were effective or not.

My snap impressions so far:

The new Barbed Signet is awesome, and I don't know why they split it; not that I would run either version in PvE, but if I did I'd want the fun version.

I keep reflexively spearing off my Enraging Charge whenever I space out for a moment; that's going to be a hard habit to break. I don't think that's a bad change though. I'm on the fence about the scaling still. Capping it at 3 strikes helps break up some of the KD chains Hammer Warriors were putting out with 14 spec Enraging, which is a good thing. At the same time, moving the 3 strike breakpoint up from 10 to 13 puts pressure on you to not take that 3rd spec, which might lower diversity overall.

Mirror of Ice is a horrible horrible skill that needs to die a horrible flaming death. Someone hand me a match.

Healing Burst is an interesting skill, with a lot of potential raw power, and also a lot of nuanced interactions that are not immediately obvious. I'm still playing around with it, and am enjoying the discussion it's generated so far; it's certainly a bit premature to lay down a final verdict on the skill. This is probably the skill most worth talking about in the next few weeks.

Essence Snow

Unbridled Enthusiasm!

Join Date: Nov 2009

EST

DPR

14 Nov 2010 at 18:33 - 163

Let me remind you that certain things simply don't apply the same so splits are needed. To have degen even be remotely viable in PvE makes it massively OP in PvP. Keeping degen in check in PvP=making it worthless in PvE. It is not a one way dynamic for everything. While in certain aspects of the game...yes I'll agree that, it could keep things in check, but for a lot it simply doesn't work that way.

Missing HB

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2010

Anna

A/

14 Nov 2010 at 18:34 - 164

I don't really do GvG seriously anymore for a few weeks but , anyway , how many guilds do run coward sins + hexes in GvG ??? As far as i can remember ( and i got the proof today on zquest ) , 3/4 of players still run bsurge + water + stance monks so...

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

14 Nov 2010 at 18:44 - 165

I've taken in everything you've talked about Ensign, and I like what you are saying, but when they are doing targeted updates on PvP, overpowered PvE "candy" will never be touched, because they are already split and can be ignored. How many years have to go by with Shadow Form being completely overpowered because of this? It's not something PvPers rage about, so it doesn't get truly nerfed.

fowlero

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2007

England, UK

We Are The One And Only [rR]

14 Nov 2010 at 18:45 - 166

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

I don't really do GvG seriously anymore for a few weeks but , anyway , how many guilds do run coward sins + hexes in GvG ??? As far as i can remember ( and i got the proof today on zquest ) , 3/4 of players still run bsurge + water + stance monks so...

You must've missed the last monthly then.

People don't run it much in ladder/reguarly in AT's because it's a boring build to play. It was however incredibly powerful so it saw a lot of play in the mAT and sometimes AT's.

drkn

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2009

Wroc??aw, Poland

Midnight Mayhem

Me/

14 Nov 2010 at 20:12 - 167

Quote:

Please...... Roll a melee character and come back to talk to me.

He shouldn't roll a melee, it's not warrior's job to keep the blind off him. He should play monk some more.

Quote:

And if you're worried about RA, the game is not, and should not, be balanced around (random) 4v4. If you're really bad enough that you can't shock/dchop/dblow/kd a BSurge when you are not blind, run Sight Beyond Sight.

While the game's balance shouldn't be based on RA, it's still a viable and playable format for a lot of people, probably much more than GvG and HA due to it's ease of getting into a game. When balancing the game for GvG, the devs mustn't forget about other formats, RA included, and the updates shouldn't break them.
If BSurge is lol meh in GvG, as every team has at two condition removals, it's still an issue to be adressed in other formats.

Quote:

Removing it made it easier to make targeted changes (which can be good!) but also a lot easier to make bad changes (yeah...)

The mechanism of splits is fine here - it's only a tool which may prove useful when balancing one side of the game much better without spoiling the other side. It's the devs, and their use of this tool, that are to blame, not splitting itself.
Don't get me wrong - i'm all into nerfing most of the overpowered, broken builds/skills in PvE, even though i use some myself (imba, SoS, discord, to be exact - same as i loved the Coward! nerf, even though i used to run cowsin in RA). I'd love to see them die, having players forced to play PvE balanced way, killing all speedclears and so on. But it can be done within the mechanics of splits - if AP is overpowered in PvE, but less useful (or useless, or never used... - no idea actually) in PvP, why nerf it in PvP as well? Kill it in PvE, but leave it be in PvP as long as it doesn't cause any problems. The same applies to the other side - MoI overpowered in PvP? Nerf it, but don't touch it in PvE, even though it's useless and no player runs it, cause at best you will nerf the monsters, effectively making PvE easier, while there's no need to.
Splits mechanics lets the devs to balance out both sides of the game accordingly to its gameplay and general rules, but it has to be used well.

Boogz

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2008

Variable Speed Farmers[VsF]

Mo/

14 Nov 2010 at 20:47 - 168

please don't give Mirror of Ice the same horrible death given to Smiter's Boon.

Still Number One

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2008

W/

14 Nov 2010 at 21:42 - 169

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boogz

please don't give Mirror of Ice the same horrible death given to Smiter's Boon.

The death to Smiter's Boon was one of the best things to happen to this game ever. Giving Smite monks healing power is the stupidest thing A.Net has ever done and the skill needed to not exist, period. So I'm not quite sure how giving a skill the Smiter's Boon treatment is bad, because that would mean the skill had a stupid mechanic and needed to be removed; which giving a damage boost to snares is a stupid mechanic and does need to be removed. So whether they completely change its mechanic or just do away with it completely, the right move would be made.

tealspikes

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2009

14 Nov 2010 at 22:07 - 170

So they choose to nerf Coward instead which isn't even a issue without the 1/2-cast dagger attacks. How many more elites are we gonna see nerfed before they realize what the real problem is???

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

15 Nov 2010 at 00:06 - 171

I'd love to see Mirror of Ice get the Smiter's Boon treatment.

Also, I'd love to see Smiter's Boon be used as a free slot to insert a genuinely interesting skill into the game.

But these skills were just really bad ideas, and you need to be able to remove really bad ideas.

Karate Jesus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2008

Texas

Reign of Judgment [RoJ]

Me/

15 Nov 2010 at 02:18 - 172

Quote:

Originally Posted by fowlero

You must've missed the last monthly then.

People don't run it much in ladder/reguarly in AT's because it's a boring build to play. It was however incredibly powerful so it saw a lot of play in the mAT and sometimes AT's.

As a lower-end GvG player, I can attest that this isn't necessarily true.

Hexway saw a lot of play all over the ladder.

ErrantVenture

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2010

Social Darwinism [SaD]

A/W

15 Nov 2010 at 03:15 - 173

Why are all the mouth breathers going apeshit over this change? This update was supposed to do one thing: kill hexes and OP poarty healing. It did that.

Heal party was massive problem, flaggers being able to sit at radar ranger and pump out 125 point party heals uncontested was not good for the game. So it had to go. Fire-and-forget hexes and conditions spam (barbed signet, VoR, empathy, faint, etc) take zero skill to play and are incredibly difficult to counter. Hex builds have always been for shitters who are bad at the game, and any nerf to hexes is an improvement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I'd love to see Mirror of Ice get the Smiter's Boon treatment.

I'd honestly like to see this too. With the nerfing of ranger DPS and paragon support skills we (the developers and the PvP community) essentially decided that a character shouldn't be able to have utility and big damage at the same time. A profession should play one role, either that of a utility tool box or of a damage pumper. Mirror of Ice lets water eles have utility and huge damage at the same time and, because of that, it needs to go. I'd rather see its functionality get completely reworked than have the skill sboon'd, but either way it needs to go.

No idea why people are talking about this update killing tombs. People still play tombs?

drkn

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2009

Wroc??aw, Poland

Midnight Mayhem

Me/

15 Nov 2010 at 06:11 - 174

Quote:

Why are all the mouth breathers going apeshit over this change? This update was supposed to do one thing: kill hexes and OP poarty healing. It did that.

Because after six months since the last update, that's everything it has tried to do (whether it was really achieved is to be confirmed in the following days/weeks). Because after six months, we got 16 skills updated, most of them in a marginal way. Because it's a GvG-oriented update, not even a PvP one, that seems to have ignored other PvP formats. Because, again, an obvious split has been avoided. Because a lot of important broken skills/chains, even in GvG, got ignored so far.

EPO Bot

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

Mo/N

15 Nov 2010 at 10:38 - 175

I like the new healing burst. It goes well with selfless spirit and any skill recharge reducing effects.

Aljasha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2009

15 Nov 2010 at 10:46 - 176

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

Because after six months since the last update, that's everything it has tried to do (whether it was really achieved is to be confirmed in the following days/weeks). Because after six months, we got 16 skills updated, most of them in a marginal way. Because it's a GvG-oriented update, not even a PvP one, that seems to have ignored other PvP formats. Because, again, an obvious split has been avoided. Because a lot of important broken skills/chains, even in GvG, got ignored so far.

Anyway, GvG got much better because of this update - mission completed.

Splitting skills is not the answer to anything. PvE became the mess it is now by splitting skills and fueling powercreep and build wars. I'd agree that sometimes it is ok to split skills, but it shouldn't be the first option.

Sirius Bsns

Banned

Join Date: May 2010

PonG

W/Mo

15 Nov 2010 at 10:52 - 177

I've been running Berserker Stance in place of E.Charge to bypass the bs. bb IMS, but hello fast adrenaline gain!

Coast

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

Belgium

Whats Going On [sup]

Mo/

15 Nov 2010 at 16:15 - 178

mirror of ice now gives u the same dmg boost when u use fire/air or earth spells that target a foe(no more boost for water spells!

diabiosx

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

Fast As A Turtle[WoOm]

W/E

15 Nov 2010 at 16:24 - 179

is it just me or do you guys think that barbed signet is technically stronger in this GW build, due to the fact that it now has better emanagement, cant be rupted, HP being nerfed which in turn makes that bleeding pressure more powerful even though it can be spammed less.

Aljasha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2009

15 Nov 2010 at 16:30 - 180

you can spam it about the same as before. you just need to push a button more often. overall gvg got somehow better, because people die due to kills more than flagger pushes.

ErrantVenture

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2010

Social Darwinism [SaD]

A/W

15 Nov 2010 at 16:54 - 181

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aljasha

you can spam it about the same as before. you just need to push a button more often. overall gvg got somehow better, because people die due to kills more than flagger pushes.

This. The actual amount of bleed you can put out now has a hard cap, but you can still old it on 4 people, and sins are running jagged strike a lot now which makes up for the necro's loss of bleed spam. I'm just wondering why I'm not seeing more rit lord flaggers atm.

Apok

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2010

15 Nov 2010 at 17:55 - 182

I'd still like to see Assault Enchantments nerfed. Maybe a 10 sec recharge or cannot use twice in a row.

Overall, I believe this update raises a question that should've been raised when LoD was still preferred: Where do we want party heals to be casted from?

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

15 Nov 2010 at 18:00 - 183

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

Heal party was massive problem, flaggers being able to sit at radar ranger and pump out 125 point party heals uncontested was not good for the game. So it had to go.

I saw that character more as a response to a problem than the root cause unto itself. It was a horribly weak and inflexible character with no tools, which needed constant babysitting. You really did not want to run it. At the same time, it was the only character that could pump enough party heals to keep you alive against hexes and sins.

Trouble was, in every other match-up you still had it as deadweight on your backline, it needed extra babysitting because the characters gunning for it were so much stronger, and consequentially everyone had to play super defensive to protect their backline. That led to lots of running around and no one dying until the suicide runs at 25.

So I won't miss pos HB/HP guy. But I'm not sure that the root issues that made it necessary are fixed either.

Anon-e-mouse

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2006

@ Home

League Of Friends [LOF]

R/Mo

15 Nov 2010 at 18:19 - 184

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aljasha

Splitting skills is not the answer to anything. PvE became the mess it is now by splitting skills and fueling powercreep and build wars. I'd agree that sometimes it is ok to split skills, but it shouldn't be the first option.

Agreed that it shouldn't be the first option, but it does need to be an option. Half the problem with PvE is that the skills that the foes used were so often abused in PvP, that when they got nerfed, PvE became MUCH easier.

ErrantVenture

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2010

Social Darwinism [SaD]

A/W

15 Nov 2010 at 19:50 - 185

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I saw that character more as a response to a problem than the root cause unto itself. It was a horribly weak and inflexible character with no tools, which needed constant babysitting. You really did not want to run it. At the same time, it was the only character that could pump enough party heals to keep you alive against hexes and sins.

Trouble was, in every other match-up you still had it as deadweight on your backline, it needed extra babysitting because the characters gunning for it were so much stronger, and consequentially everyone had to play super defensive to protect their backline. That led to lots of running around and no one dying until the suicide runs at 25.

So I won't miss pos HB/HP guy. But I'm not sure that the root issues that made it necessary are fixed either.

Honestly the HB/HP flagger was a lot more useful in most situations than a rit. It had better party healing and single target healing than a rit. It can remove hexes and conditions. It's only real disadvantage over a rit was its vulnerability to strips and it's lack of a snare (meant trapping splits in base was more difficult). Rits used to be outstanding, but the continuous nerfs to ever skill that rit flaggers have relied upon through the years (pious haste, warding, resilient, recup, pots, splinter, arage, etc) have made them really weak compared to monk flaggers. The only reason monk flaggers are going out now is their lack of party healing compared to rits. In every other way they're superior at this point in the game.

diabiosx

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2005

Fast As A Turtle[WoOm]

W/E

15 Nov 2010 at 20:21 - 186

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

Honestly the HB/HP flagger was a lot more useful in most situations than a rit. It had better party healing and single target healing than a rit. It can remove hexes and conditions. It's only real disadvantage over a rit was its vulnerability to strips and it's lack of a snare (meant trapping splits in base was more difficult). Rits used to be outstanding, but the continuous nerfs to ever skill that rit flaggers have relied upon through the years (pious haste, warding, resilient, recup, pots, splinter, arage, etc) have made them really weak compared to monk flaggers. The only reason monk flaggers are going out now is their lack of party healing compared to rits. In every other way they're superior at this point in the game.

Well one of the reason for the nerf is because it makes for a boring game. Spamming Heal Party in the middle of no where gets stale. Rits are more proactive.

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

15 Nov 2010 at 20:59 - 187

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

With the nerfing of ranger DPS and paragon support skills we (the developers and the PvP community) essentially decided that a character shouldn't be able to have utility and big damage at the same time. A profession should play one role, either that of a utility tool box or of a damage pumper.

I'm sure few here care about JQ, but, what about this?

Apok

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2010

15 Nov 2010 at 21:19 - 188

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

I'm sure few here care about JQ, but, what about this?

That is simply proof of how OP the Smiting Prayers line is.

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

15 Nov 2010 at 21:28 - 189

JQ is inherently even more degenerate than hero battles, balancing skills around it isn't as good an idea as deleting it.

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

15 Nov 2010 at 21:36 - 190

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

I'm sure few here care about JQ, but, what about this?

That's what happens when PvE mechanics mix into PvP.

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

15 Nov 2010 at 21:45 - 191

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

Honestly the HB/HP flagger was a lot more useful in most situations than a rit. It had better party healing and single target healing than a rit. It can remove hexes and conditions. It's only real disadvantage over a rit was its vulnerability to strips and it's lack of a snare (meant trapping splits in base was more difficult). Rits used to be outstanding, but the continuous nerfs to ever skill that rit flaggers have relied upon through the years (pious haste, warding, resilient, recup, pots, splinter, arage, etc) have made them really weak compared to monk flaggers.

I can't disagree. Rits have been nerfed repeatedly and hard, and don't have a single good skill left. Healer's Boon guys, as bad as they were, at least still had a Guardian / Mendtouch backbone. Rits are just a couple marginal party heals and a bunch of trash.

Pretty much any runner you can take now is a boring POS that needs to be babysat; whatever holds the party heals is going to suck yak dung, so you'd better make it move flags much of the time instead of being a liability in a fight.

Apok

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2010

15 Nov 2010 at 23:59 - 192

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I can't disagree. Rits have been nerfed repeatedly and hard, and don't have a single good skill left. Healer's Boon guys, as bad as they were, at least still had a Guardian / Mendtouch backbone. Rits are just a couple marginal party heals and a bunch of trash.

Pretty much any runner you can take now is a boring POS that needs to be babysat; whatever holds the party heals is going to suck yak dung, so you'd better make it move flags much of the time instead of being a liability in a fight.

And this is why I feel that party heals should be the job of the backline at the flagstand, instead of making the flagrunner just a basesitter. The Healing Burst change was a step in the right direction, but I fear the buff wasn't big enough to warrant a weening from WoH.

I dunno. The whole idea of someone outside the fight still effecting the outcome kinda bothers me...

Steps_Descending

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

IN my pocket plane. Obviously!

Little Tom's Pocket Plane [THom]

Me/Mo

16 Nov 2010 at 04:06 - 193

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Second, I acknowledged that the nerf to MoI isnt even much of a nerf at all. It doesnt even really matter. The reason why I dont like it is because im afraid that the practice of nerfing/buffing skills in one format because of issues in the other format is a slippery slope. Next time, the nerf could actually be a bigger deal in PvE. Also, saying that a skill shouldnt be split because it isnt meta is silly. A large portion of the PvE players dont necessarily use meta builds.

Interesting, I see the reverse as a slipery slope. Start to split simple numbers in a format to make (say...) ele's fireball competitive as damage. Next thing we know is more skills becoming "overpowered". Then you change a number to make an underused skill really different (ER). Then it's an underused one that gets a complete overhaul (UA) but that's worth it. Then it's just random skils that get complete overhaul, then it's attributes, then you make things that are "impossible" in pvp (UA again) then PvE nombers start to be counted in the 3digits. Then you have completely different games.

(edit ok ok late reply I know)

NerfHerder

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2010

16 Nov 2010 at 08:14 - 194

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok

That is simply proof of how OP the Smiting Prayers line is.

It's actually just proof of how poor the NPC AI in JQ is. Make them scatter when they get hit with RoJ and all of a sudden Smiting Prayers doesnt seem so OP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

JQ is inherently even more degenerate than hero battles, balancing skills around it isn't as good an idea as deleting it.

I dont think balancing PvP skills around AB/CMs would be a good idea either. Although, it would be hilarious. Improving NPC AI/Skill Bars and the bug that makes carriers stuck would be a better solution.

Missing HB

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2010

Anna

A/

16 Nov 2010 at 08:30 - 195

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

I dont think balancing PvP skills around AB/CMs would be a good idea either. Although, it would be hilarious. Improving NPC AI/Skill Bars and the bug that makes carriers stuck would be a better solution.

However , Op's builds in one format are rarely used in other ones. I don't believe it would have mattered a lot to :
- change damages from RoJ
- make all enchants disappear when you use any teleport skill( apply for JQ bombers and HB teleporters )

Konker2020

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2009

Exiled Forcez [Ex]

16 Nov 2010 at 09:39 - 196

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadS

All I hear is bitching about everything. They are giving you guys updates, whether it's not what you expected, it's an update. You'll get your big update in time. Chill out, Jesus.

It's damned if they do, damned if they don't.

The problem is, this skill update is yet again 4 months late. And half of the changes are dartboard. For example, wtf was the point in changing Enraging Charge? It's sad that they make statement after statement about how one time frame is shifting to another and then still don't follow through on it, and when they finally release the update, it's crap. I gave up on them releasing anything useful, but now they are changing skills that don't need a change. It doesn't impress me one bit, and as I've seen, nor does it impress many others.

lemming

The Hotshot

Join Date: May 2006

Honolulu

International District [id???]

16 Nov 2010 at 10:35 - 197

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konker2020

The problem is, this skill update is yet again 4 months late. And half of the changes are dartboard. For example, wtf was the point in changing Enraging Charge? It's sad that they make statement after statement about how one time frame is shifting to another and then still don't follow through on it, and when they finally release the update, it's crap. I gave up on them releasing anything useful, but now they are changing skills that don't need a change. It doesn't impress me one bit, and as I've seen, nor does it impress many others.

The update's not crap to those it was intended for. Not amazing, but certainly better than nothing.

Xiaquin

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2010

[aRIN]

R/

16 Nov 2010 at 19:50 - 198

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

It's actually just proof of how poor the NPC AI in JQ is. Make them scatter when they get hit with RoJ and all of a sudden Smiting Prayers doesnt seem so OP.

RoJ has no place in PvP, let alone PvE in its current form. The original version was a lot more balanced.

Lanier

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

[Pink]

P/

16 Nov 2010 at 20:19 - 199

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

Interesting, I see the reverse as a slipery slope. Start to split simple numbers in a format to make (say...) ele's fireball competitive as damage. Next thing we know is more skills becoming "overpowered". Then you change a number to make an underused skill really different (ER). Then it's an underused one that gets a complete overhaul (UA) but that's worth it. Then it's just random skils that get complete overhaul, then it's attributes, then you make things that are "impossible" in pvp (UA again) then PvE nombers start to be counted in the 3digits. Then you have completely different games.

(edit ok ok late reply I know)

Haha, yea, it is a late reply but i agree completely and i guess i should have worded my post better. In my mind, the same is true for both buffs and nerfs (and in either format).

ErrantVenture

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2010

Social Darwinism [SaD]

A/W

16 Nov 2010 at 21:10 - 200

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konker2020

The problem is, this skill update is yet again 4 months late. And half of the changes are dartboard. For example, wtf was the point in changing Enraging Charge? It's sad that they make statement after statement about how one time frame is shifting to another and then still don't follow through on it, and when they finally release the update, it's crap. I gave up on them releasing anything useful, but now they are changing skills that don't need a change. It doesn't impress me one bit, and as I've seen, nor does it impress many others.

Enraging charge was nerfed to slow adrenaline gain on hammer warriors. The ability to quickly gain adrenaline has increased exponentially since the game started (spears, flail, and countless other skills added to the game facilitate adren building) which means hammer wars can now spit out skills at a much higher rate than they were ever meant to. In GvG where trip melee builds featuring two hammer wars are very common, this represented a big problem. Therefore, the enraging charge change was both relevant, and necessary.