Skill Balance 13/11/2010
Lanier
I agree that skills shouldnt be nerfed in PvE (or PvP) if they arn't overpowered in those formats. There is simply no reason for it. While the PvE MoI nerf isnt a big deal at all, it is just another example of a PvP change that shouldnt be affecting PvE at all. Remember the Mesmer PvE update in May? There were several skills that were buffed there in order to improve the mesmer's position in PvE. However, in the process, a lot of skill splits did not occur, thus leading to an unnecessary buff of the mesmer's energy denial ability in PvE. If a skill is overpowered or underpowered in one format but not in another, then only fix it in that one format, and leave it like it is in the other.
Sirius Bsns
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Originally Posted by kupp
Sad by seeing Coward! take a hit. Recently became my favourite low-end pvp playtoy, it's not too bad of a nerf but it makes the job A LOT more difficult to keep someone knock-locked since by the time the skill becomes active, the enemy is already beginning to run and denies us the short adrenaline build-up moment.
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"Coward!" Elite Shout. Causes knock-down if target foe is moving. *Disables all Non Warrior and Non Adrenaline attack skills for 10 seconds.*
kupp
Kinda funny when sins can still teleport in, 1-2-3-4-5 spam the target and keep it knock-locked and dead in 5 seconds or so.
Assassins, they really are the cancer of this game.
Assassins, they really are the cancer of this game.
Killed u man
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Originally Posted by kupp
Sad by seeing Coward! take a hit. Recently became my favourite low-end pvp playtoy, it's not too bad of a nerf but it makes the job A LOT more difficult to keep someone knock-locked since by the time the skill becomes active, the enemy is already beginning to run and denies us the short adrenaline build-up moment.
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Elnino
I fail to see how the change to MoI is affecting PvE negatively. This change is only making the skill more like an attunement. It does not hurt the game play in PvE anyway whatsoever. No one even uses. Crying about a nerf to a skill no one in their right mind would use (in PvE) is just silly.
Ever heard of a 40/40 set or a 20% enchant weapon or a cover enchantment?
But no one uses this skill, so it doesn't matter.
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Originally Posted by Xiaquin
That will be fun until you get it stripped outright. Enjoy your 45 second wait for mediocrity.
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| I know this all seems pointless, but if it was a skill more people used, there would be rage. A bad nerf is a bad nerf, and I think they made a mistake. |
kupp
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Originally Posted by Killed u man
That was the point...
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Lanier
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Originally Posted by Elnino
I fail to see how the change to MoI is affecting PvE negatively. This change is only making the skill more like an attunement. It does not hurt the game play in PvE anyway whatsoever. No one even uses. Crying about a nerf to a skill no one in their right mind would use (in PvE) is just silly.
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Second, I acknowledged that the nerf to MoI isnt even much of a nerf at all. It doesnt even really matter. The reason why I dont like it is because im afraid that the practice of nerfing/buffing skills in one format because of issues in the other format is a slippery slope. Next time, the nerf could actually be a bigger deal in PvE. Also, saying that a skill shouldnt be split because it isnt meta is silly. A large portion of the PvE players dont necessarily use meta builds.
Shayne Hawke
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Originally Posted by Lanier
Second, I acknowledged that the nerf to MoI isnt even much of a nerf at all. It doesnt even really matter. The reason why I dont like it is because im afraid that the practice of nerfing/buffing skills in one format because of issues in the other format is a slippery slope. Next time, the nerf could actually be a bigger deal in PvE. Also, saying that a skill shouldnt be split because it isnt meta is silly. A large portion of the PvE players dont necessarily use meta builds.
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My understanding is that there is a limit as to how many skills can exist in the game. If skills do not absolutely have to be split, they shouldn't be. Was the nerf to MoI going to break PvE? Hardly. A split would be pointless.
Sirius Bsns
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Originally Posted by kupp
Kinda funny when sins can still teleport in, 1-2-3-4-5 spam the target and keep it knock-locked and dead in 5 seconds or so.
Assassins, they really are the cancer of this game. |
Meridon
In PvE, skills that see frequent play should be nerfed. Skills that see no play shouldn't be nerfed.
As a result of the current way Anet handles skill splits, the opposite is happening. This only pushes regular bars into a relatively higher state of overpoweredness and kills the general balance in the long term.
Yes, the current skill splitting attitude is breaking PvE.
As a result of the current way Anet handles skill splits, the opposite is happening. This only pushes regular bars into a relatively higher state of overpoweredness and kills the general balance in the long term.
Yes, the current skill splitting attitude is breaking PvE.
Lanier
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Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke
My understanding is that there is a limit as to how many skills can exist in the game. If skills do not absolutely have to be split, they shouldn't be. Was the nerf to MoI going to break PvE? Hardly. A split would be pointless.
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If this is true, then sure, I understand what you mean. I don't see why there would be a limit... but then again I dont know that much about the inner workings of the game.
Shadowspawn X
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Originally Posted by chadS
All I hear is bitching about everything. They are giving you guys updates, whether it's not what you expected, it's an update. You'll get your big update in time. Chill out, Jesus.
It's damned if they do, damned if they don't. |
drkn
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| My understanding is that there is a limit as to how many skills can exist in the game. |
If not, there's no reason not to split skills if you intend to alter only one side of the game.
MisterB
Mirror of Ice nerf in PvE reminds me of the Quickshot PvE nerf. So another useless skill is now slightly less useful, which would (maybe) be an issue if it was of any use to begin with.
They still haven't fixed the ignores armor cold damage, or is that intentional?
edit: I don't like Enraging Charge's description, purely because of the phrase "strike a target." Just say hit, please.
They still haven't fixed the ignores armor cold damage, or is that intentional?
edit: I don't like Enraging Charge's description, purely because of the phrase "strike a target." Just say hit, please.
Cuilan
They kept Empathy, Gaze of Fury, and other skills well suited for PvE. I see no problems and Healing Burst may not be perfect, but it's nice and will hopefully give PvE monks more diversity. Mirror of Ice was already really poor in PvE so this update hardly makes it worse.
Kaida the Heartless
To whomever said Scribe's Insight + Barbed Signet sucks, Mantra of Recall during the Boonprot era provided about 2 pips of energy. Inspired Hex was the other Energy Skill that was run, and that provided ~4 energy every 20 seconds, or 2/3 of a single pip. Scribes + Barbed provides more energy, while MoR + IR provided a Hex Removal every 20 seconds.
Just shows how closed minded and uninformed much of the player base is.
Just shows how closed minded and uninformed much of the player base is.
Xiaquin
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Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke
My understanding is that there is a limit as to how many skills can exist in the game. If skills do not absolutely have to be split, they shouldn't be. Was the nerf to MoI going to break PvE? Hardly. A split would be pointless.
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Originally Posted by MisterB
Mirror of Ice nerf in PvE reminds me of the Quickshot PvE nerf. So another useless skill is now slightly less useful, which would (maybe) be an issue if it was of any use to begin with.
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Originally Posted by Elnino
/snip
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FoxBat
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Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless
To whomever said Scribe's Insight + Barbed Signet sucks, Mantra of Recall during the Boonprot era provided about 2 pips of energy. Inspired Hex was the other Energy Skill that was run, and that provided ~4 energy every 20 seconds, or 2/3 of a single pip. Scribes + Barbed provides more energy, while MoR + IR provided a Hex Removal every 20 seconds.
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In short it's called power creep. We did not have old LoD or the current WoH in boonprot days, nor the absurd damage nightfall brought to the table. Plus boon's healing level still isn't what it used to be, especially with swappable 16 DF headpiece.
Kaida the Heartless
FoxBat: True, however the Scribes Monk is still specced entirely into Monk attributes, requiring no spread. This synergizes further with Divine Favor's innate energy engine, and Divine Boon itself. This also allows a heavy investment into Prot or even a strong split into Healing as well (Gift of Health is still nice). Optimal, probably not. But the Monk was clearly doing something right when every single spike for 3 matches straight failed miserably (this could be a rank issue as well, as I don't recall the differences).
About the Heal Party change:
Try pushing into the enemy instead of the altar. There are more ways to influence a battle than humping the Ghostly Hero. And Hall of Heroes is 1v1v1 for a reason. If the holding team is able to fight off 16 players, they deserve it.
All I'm trying to say is that people get stuck into a mindset that nothing can be done when something is removed/changed in the game, and this is completely false. People get stuck in thier ways and refuse to adapt, so they complain on the forums. Not to be "that guy", but if you want to see stupid game changes, go play WoW.
About the Heal Party change:
Try pushing into the enemy instead of the altar. There are more ways to influence a battle than humping the Ghostly Hero. And Hall of Heroes is 1v1v1 for a reason. If the holding team is able to fight off 16 players, they deserve it.
All I'm trying to say is that people get stuck into a mindset that nothing can be done when something is removed/changed in the game, and this is completely false. People get stuck in thier ways and refuse to adapt, so they complain on the forums. Not to be "that guy", but if you want to see stupid game changes, go play WoW.
Felix Infelicium
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Originally Posted by kupp
Sad by seeing Coward! take a hit. Recently became my favourite low-end pvp playtoy, it's not too bad of a nerf but it makes the job A LOT more difficult to keep someone knock-locked since by the time the skill becomes active, the enemy is already beginning to run and denies us the short adrenaline build-up moment.
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StormDragonZ
Is it bad that I like the PvP version of Barbed Signet better than what it does in PvE?
Ensign
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Originally Posted by Lanier
The reason why I dont like it is because im afraid that the practice of nerfing/buffing skills in one format because of issues in the other format is a slippery slope.
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The only slippery slope you need to worry about is a slippery slope to sanity in PvE, presuming you prefer the present insanity. If A.Net keeps this up, PvE might accidentally become balanced again, the horrors!
Elnino
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Originally Posted by Ensign
The practice of nerfing/buffing skills in all formats due to best use in a particular format was the way things were done for years, and doing away with the practice is what opened the floodgates for 100% uptime Shadow Form, Ether Renewal, and all the other horrendously broken nonsense that steamrolls PvE.
The only slippery slope you need to worry about is a slippery slope to sanity in PvE, presuming you prefer the present insanity. If A.Net keeps this up, PvE might accidentally become balanced again, the horrors! |
If Anet keeps this current practice up, how will PvE accidentally become balanced again, if they keep the practice that created the imbalance?
Apok
Ensign, could you do everyone a favor and pleasantly give us your thoughts on this update?
Thanks in advance.
Thanks in advance.
Still Number One
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Originally Posted by Elnino
I'm confused. Didn't you say the current practice "is what opened the floodgates for 100% uptime Shadow Form, Ether Renewal, and all the other horrendously broken nonsense that steamrolls PvE?"
If Anet keeps this current practice up, how will PvE accidentally become balanced again, if they keep the practice that created the imbalance? |
Elnino
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Originally Posted by Still Number One
I think he is saying the PvE/PvP splits is what imbalanced PvE because PvP wasn't keeping it in check. If they continue to not split the two PvE will become balanced again. Could be wrong on my interpretation though.
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drkn
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| The practice of nerfing/buffing skills in all formats due to best use in a particular format was the way things were done for years, and doing away with the practice is what opened the floodgates for 100% uptime Shadow Form, Ether Renewal, and all the other horrendously broken nonsense that steamrolls PvE. |
Twisted logic, sir, if it's logic at all. SF could be split to work somehow useful in PvP, while not being terribly broken in PvE. Why not?
Also the fact that ANet did it for that long doesn't sanctify it.
The main cause why splits are necessary is that the game is imbalanced in its very core. In two ways. First off, PvE and PvP are drastically different now. They require different approach, gameplay, the mechanics are really far from being similar. Thus, they also require different skills (or, usually, different versions of skills - more/less powerful XYZ, or working completely differently, for A format than it's in B does the trick). Secondly, the duo-class mechanics is broken by design. Although fun and useful, especially in PvE, it makes the ultimate balancing virtually impossible. Splitting skills for completely different formats helps to keep some level of balance for that format, while not buffing/nerfing the other one - each format should be carefully balanced on its own.
Another way of achieving balance is to delete most of the skills from the game (or just from the players' skill pool). The ones that are useless, broken, blatantly overpowered. Then, if, say, a class has 3 skills left, add new ones or bring back some of the old ones, but in more balanced way. It would bring us closer to what GW2 is going to be.
Or the duo-class mechanics could be touched. Limit secondary-class' attributes to max 6 and limit the build to include max 2 non-primairy skills, with elite from your primairy. It still wouldn't kill SF, 100b/MoP and other terribad crap, but would make subsequent balancing much easier and more real without breaking other aspects of the game.
e: typos.
Bassma
Nice update Anet if this many people are unhappy with it then you've done your job well. Don't worry they'll learn to live with it just like the others.
Xenomortis
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Originally Posted by Ensign
The practice of nerfing/buffing skills in all formats due to best use in a particular format was the way things were done for years, and doing away with the practice is what opened the floodgates for 100% uptime Shadow Form, Ether Renewal, and all the other horrendously broken nonsense that steamrolls PvE.
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With the direction PvE was taking in NF and EotN, a PvE/PvP skill-split would have been in order, but more care was needed instead of the "ok, we can buff shit like crazy now" attitude that was taken.
It also finished driving a wedge between PvP and PvE, but that was a process that had begun much earlier.
superraptors
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Originally Posted by kupp
Sad by seeing Coward! take a hit. Recently became my favourite low-end pvp playtoy, it's not too bad of a nerf but it makes the job A LOT more difficult to keep someone knock-locked since by the time the skill becomes active, the enemy is already beginning to run and denies us the short adrenaline build-up moment.
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assassins ruined the game when it was released, cookie cutter sp sin, shadow of haste, shadow steps, backbreaker, near,instant activation skills now, shadowmelding in hb, abusing other classes coward bb, a/p spikers- how does a assasin play a better spear chucker then a paragon?, being abused by other clases - r/a now warrior bbs PVE - everyone runs sf terras pretty much killed balanced pugs, could probably name a few more but not the least bit surprised
Coast
they could have buffed divine boon back to what it used to be!([email protected]) and reduce recharge(+maybe e cost to 1e)
Still would be worse as rc prot wich has massive armor and stances
Still would be worse as rc prot wich has massive armor and stances
TheRanger
Healing Burst is amazing. PvE Monk with UA and another with Healing Burst = amazing.
kupp
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Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns
Wow, all teleports have a huge aftercast delay. Also, blind, S.Bash, Bonetti's, Disciplined, F*** IT! Lame your way with him and just B.Surge/B.Flash his ass! How the f*** can you possibly have a problem with assassins when you have all the above at your disposal?! You, dear sir, are just not doing it right!
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http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/W_...ck_Palm_Spiker
Argue this. Just an example. And don't talk to me like I'm breaking news to anyone when everyone knows how sins are a zero-skilled button mashing that nearly instagibs players and god forbid that if you don't have the one specific skill to break it, you're dead.
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Originally Posted by Felix Infelicium
Either you're trolling or you're oblivious to the fact that knock lock is a silly and imbalanced mechanic in a game like GW.
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Originally Posted by superraptors
thats the reason why it got nerfed, it pretty much made the target getting attacked stand still and tank it, it should have been tied to strength once again, sins abused it not warriors, double strikes made on 100% recharge all the time, with nearinstant activation skills you can keep a target standing still most of the time
assassins ruined the game when it was released, cookie cutter sp sin, shadow of haste, shadow steps, backbreaker, near,instant activation skills now, shadowmelding in hb, abusing other classes coward bb, a/p spikers- how does a assasin play a better spear chucker then a paragon?, being abused by other clases - r/a now warrior bbs PVE - everyone runs sf terras pretty much killed balanced pugs, could probably name a few more but not the least bit surprised |
Warriors never abused it in the first place and for the love of god, if that's annoying on anyone else and reason to be nerfed, then remove Blinding Surge from the game all together because that's a lot more gamebreaking than the ocasional KD the warrior has to work for, cannot spam on recharge and that does not effectively remove whatever physical professions within range from the match.
Artisan Archer
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Originally Posted by kupp
Warriors never abused it in the first place and for the love of god, if that's annoying on anyone else and reason to be nerfed, then remove Blinding Surge from the game all together because that's a lot more gamebreaking than the ocasional KD the warrior has to work for, cannot spam on recharge and that does not effectively remove whatever physical professions within range from the match.
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kupp
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Originally Posted by Artisan Archer
Draw Conditions.
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Blind spammed faster than it can be removed.
No monk dedicated on me alone.
If any monk available.
Utopia.
etc.
It's easy making witty 2-word sentences, not so much explaining why they completely fail.
Artisan Archer
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Originally Posted by kupp
3s recharge.
Blind spammed faster than it can be removed. No monk dedicated on me alone. If any monk available. Utopia. etc. It's easy making witty 2-word sentences, not so much explaining why they completely fail. |
kupp
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Originally Posted by Artisan Archer
Are you kidding me? If you don't see that draw conditions > blind I'll just stop here. Also, guild wars shouldn't be balanced around RA.
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Also, guild wars should be balanced around pvp. Never liked that notion that only HA/GvG (and has of late, only GvG by looking at some idiotic forum posts) is considered pvp.
IrishX
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Originally Posted by kupp
3s recharge.
Blind spammed faster than it can be removed. No monk dedicated on me alone. If any monk available. Utopia. etc. It's easy making witty 2-word sentences, not so much explaining why they completely fail. |
And if you're worried about RA, the game is not, and should not, be balanced around (random) 4v4. If you're really bad enough that you can't shock/dchop/dblow/kd a BSurge when you are not blind, run Sight Beyond Sight.
Lanier
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Originally Posted by Ensign
The practice of nerfing/buffing skills in all formats due to best use in a particular format was the way things were done for years, and doing away with the practice is what opened the floodgates for 100% uptime Shadow Form, Ether Renewal, and all the other horrendously broken nonsense that steamrolls PvE.
The only slippery slope you need to worry about is a slippery slope to sanity in PvE, presuming you prefer the present insanity. If A.Net keeps this up, PvE might accidentally become balanced again, the horrors! |
Morphy
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Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns
Wow, all teleports have a huge aftercast delay. Also, blind, S.Bash, Bonetti's, Disciplined, F*** IT! Lame your way with him and just B.Surge/B.Flash his ass! How the f*** can you possibly have a problem with assassins when you have all the above at your disposal?! You, dear sir, are just not doing it right!
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Why don't you do us all a favor by going back to my JS/FF thread and read what the actual problem with these skills is.