Nerf Invincibuilds

I propse Anet stick by their Anti-Invincibuild stance. 600/Smite was nerfed for this reason. If Anet was serious about this, wouldnt they nerf SF/ER as well? I'm not totally against all invincibuilds, I just think Anet should quit sitting on the fence about it. SF is at the heart of almost every SC in the game. Is that not imbalanced when compared to other professions and protective skills? What do you think? How should this be implemented? Nerf skills like SF? or buff the areas to counter where skills like SF are most often used(Soulrending Shriek, touch skills, etc)?

I'm not talking specifically about SF, but it is the 800lb gorilla in the room.

ArenaNet is not actually against invincibuilds. They have proven this repeatedly with balance updates and developer statements. What they oppose is extreme efficiency, but they are not always effective or timely with their attempts at solutions.

By definition and how monster AI works in PvE, invincibuilds are always going to promote degenerate exploitative play.

They stated they want invincibuilds to be viable tanks for those tank and spank teams. To which I say fine; change shadow form (and maybe obs flesh) so that you deal zero damage. Yeah there's still degen but it's piss slow, unlike WW spam or sliver armor or whatever. And killing half the team's ability to solo kill will put a real dent in most speedclear times.

hmm i seem to recall the longest surviving invincibuild in gw which has hardly been affected is 55 monk ( on time a change came was a revert from 55 mo/d to pure 55 mo after a nerf to mystic regen ).
Anet has always attempted to place in areas that are "high risk" with foes to counter - eg nightmares in uw with enchant strip , skeletons of dhuum , mindblades with sig dmg and higher hp plus switchin from melee to ranged - anti sliver.They stated in the past they have nothing actually against invincibuilds as players do enjoy using them but only have a problem of exploitation.600/smite was hit mainly because of the high impact of 600/smite farming within gw as probably 75% of all gw areas could be farmed using them - but when incorporated into sc`s things became a joke.Especially when they removed hero fast faction farming and players used 600/smite teams to faction farm mq and mt and i think dt.

And please dont stir up the old "sf hater" part - SF isnt invici any more compared to what it was , players still take damage , get attacked and can even lose sf via aoe stripping ( try sitting next to Asterius the Mighty with sf in hm and last more than 20 secs and you`ll see staying alive doesnt work).Thousands laughed when sf got changed then they cried after they found the sin basically changed roles.Just get anet to do the easy thing and "high risk"areas add foes with enchant strip , dmg that cuts thru everything - like the mes sigs added to mindblades rather than spoil fun that other players have outside of those areas.

Game is old. GW 2 coming up. Some people like SC. No use running off players at this stage.

Shouldve smiters booned it 3+ years ago, too late at this stage of the game and wont achieve anything

If a single skill, build, team build, or method overcentralizes the metagame in such a way that it basically becomes pick X or suffer consequences, then it may deserve a nerf.

Does Shadow Form overcentralize the metagame?

Any profession who is not an Assassin has an immediate disadvantage when wanting to complete metagame content like SoO, FoW, UW, and other various SCs.

Other professions have a disadvantage in inclusion in parties for runs, in efficiency, and in ease of gameplay.

I would say yes it does overcentralize the metagame and deserves a beatdown with the nerf stick, however ANet realizes this may make them lose many players.

In a stupid effort to try and make more money, ANet would rather have a deficient product than one which is thoroughly enjoyable even without the interference of balance issues such as Shadow Form.


By the way, 55 monk is not an invincibuild. Neither is Shadow Form. They are both products of mass exploitation and do damage to the game economy, discriminate against widespread class selection, and are too efficient and easy in efforts to save time and gain money.

55 Monking is just so obscure at this point that the damage caused by speed clears and Shadow Form (seemingly irreparable damage to the already devastated in game economy) is in pale comparison.

Heard the one about the infinite number of monkeys that will eventually type out all the great works of literature ?

GW is like that, the company has a finite number of people working on fixing skills balancing builds etc.

The player community has not an infinite but a very much greater number of player working far more hours into beating the system and creating the perfect build.

Its true frequent changes in skills slows down the march of the monkeys but they are an irresistible force that eventually comes up with yet another way round the game mechanics.

They could make all the skills underpowered and mediocre but that would be worse.
Besides some people like the invincibuilds and what others do doesnt affect me.

That kind of reasoning has no place in any kind of game balance decision-making.

SF is no longer an invincibuild, but it does still need another nerf.

/signed

In my opinion, they tried to "fix" both OF and SF, but instead they buttraped OF pretty badly.. It's not worthless, and I know it's frequently used in UWSC etc, but compared to SF, it's shit. So, they gave the assassin another huge advantage over ele's for example. So, with the elusive ele balance i've been dreaming about for over 3 years now, they should better do something about it..

Not gonna say nerf though, cause I enjoy tanking DoA too much^^

/notsigned

I would love to pick on the other skill that enables DoA and UW to be ran in 20min and all other Elite areas and HM Dungeons to be ran in 10min, if it existed. Even with skill, tactics, and cons, none of those times would be possible without SF.

I would rather the end game areas and dungeons install anti-SC measures vs a SF nerf. The only question is, how do you do that with out punishing balanced groups?

lol SYKe! peeps always bitch about the sf update or nerf and in general from the past and the present.

so you can get a skill nerfed so that another skill well be overused to balance the effectiveness of a tank so you can QQ more? i dont think so...nothing is good enough for any player in this game. if one thing is poked the other has to be poked as well when its pushed forward. stop your QQing

SF is not overpowered nor is it needing another nerf-let me point out a few things.

Shadowform can be hit by melee attacks but not spells-thus giving it elite skill status
Shadowform is practically useless for things other than tanking and SC's really. I have never been on a mission where an assassin used SF as his first choice elite.
Shadowform has a very small damage cap thus making it almost a worthless skill than other for tanking.
Shadowform was a meant as a defensive skill, not an offensive. If you pit an assassin w/ SF(postnerf PvE version) vs a warrior the warrior would prob win. You know why? DAMAGE CAP and Shadowform is practically useless against him.
Shadowform is one of the skills that people think are overpowered yet its a standard skill. IT SUCKS SOME PLACES, RULES AT OTHERS! just like ANY OTHER SKILL. example: VANQUISHING! SF cant do you any good other than a tank really.
You might say: What bout those guys in Doomlore running dungeons? We guys in doomlore know skills that can help us do what 8 assassins can do in a little less time than the SC.
So tell me; Is shadowform overpowered?
If yes, Pm me reasons you think it is and I'll give you reasons why it is not.
If no, I'd like to thank you for listening to reason(:P). No skill is seriously overpowered; 600/smite can pwn dungeons like assassins can SC with Shadowform. Those who use SF to SC are those who use the skills available to their advantage and those skills themselves just help them survive the onslaught of spells and melee damage w/o monks. I myself use SF to run dungeons for people, the few select skills I use can let me survive and kill what I need to kill.

Anet created these skills so we could use them and so use them I shall!
also
/notsigned

BC invincibuilds are only using skills in combination w/ one other to the advantage in them. If you dont wanna use skills then fine, idc stick w/ selfmade builds and i'll go with builds i can use that work well.

p.s. Shadowform Speedclears DID NOT wreck the GW economy. Speedclears were made with many other versions than shadowform so do not go blaming SF when there are MANY other ways to clear a part of the metagame quickly. ex: manlyway.

All for nerfing or changing the function/role of Shadow Form here. At least to where dungeons require at least two professions on the team or let the profession have something else useful.

They gave us the skills is a poor reason because if that was the case..maybe we shouldn't have a dervish or paragon update.

I got plenty of examples to disprove your point. The damage by SF has been done, as shown (for r9 weapons):
1. Emmy blades used to cost 130e are now 30e (this is the worst case scenario)
2. Obsidian edges used to cost 100e+ are now under 70e.
3. Silverwings used to cost 250e+, but now just under 150e.
4. BDS staffs dropped in prices significantly for all professions. Prot ones used to go 500e+, now just over 200e.
5. Miniature Dhuum (from UWSC) dropped from 600e to 250e.


I could go on and on with the examples how mass dungeon/elite clears using SF as the core build for a) tanking, b) skipping most of the dungeon, c) killing enemies using earth/mes builds....ruined the prices of hard to farm skins.

I am still excited to hear from this fellow the MANY other ways to speed clear without using SF at all in any of the builds. Granted there are a few exceptions such as Bogroots paraway, I do not know of the MANY he is speaking off. And manlyway also uses SF in there!

SF needs a nerf-bat OR skills which work against the physical-disadvantages of SF such as "Shroud of Distress" needs a good nerf. In fact, I dislike how overpowered SoD is.

Finally, an observation that makes me chuckle the most is when people using SF in SC/elite clears brag about the awesome completion times they accomplished. It is very pro indeed!!!!! /end sarcasm.

I love invinci builds because it makes GW truly soloable. 1player+7henchies is not soloing becauseI really hate the fact that heroes can play the game for me while my character can basically just sit back and type to people while the henchies kill everything for me. I would actually love Anet to implement more viable invinci builds to all classes.
so
/notsigned to OP

Originally Posted by gremlin View Post
Besides some people like the invincibuilds and what others do doesnt affect me.

Agreed however as a statement it is true, companies to a certain extent will do things to please their customers.

The comparatively few posts on this forum decrying invincibuilds are on one side of the argument on the other are the probably thousands of players using them.
The original 55 Monk was an attempt to get around the game mechanics and become invincible.
anet knows this and they have at times created such builds and then taken many many months to remove them.


Secondly I really couldn't care less if every other player in the game made an invincibuild finished the game in hard mode in a day waltzed through the underworld and back again and came out with a million ectos ambracers and everything else not bolted to the floor.

It really doesn't influence how I play the game
I have tried many of the invincibuilds and find them boring.

I repeat no matter what changes they make to the game there are thousands of idiots out there working 16 hours a day 7 days a week to break them again.
Why waste time and effort fixing the unfixable just make the occasional skill changes and wik kind of thing to keep us occupied till gw2 arrives.

With a bit of luck GW2 will promote a better kind of player who just plays the game for the fun of it.

You just don't know how untrue that statement is.

This isn't a single player RPG where you don't interact with other players.

A player's choice to use SF perpetuates the metagame which discourages diverse profession use and non SC builds.

Your choices influence the game not only directly but indirectly as well. You choosing to believe the game revolves around the exploitation of time/profit ratio has a profound effect.

Dervishes, Paragons, and Rangers have by default less of a chance to be assimilated into teams because of the product created by the socialized tendency of people to overfarm the game with the same professions.

This cheapens the experience for anybody who chooses not to pick professions that are commonly used to exploit speed runs.

In this scenario, it becomes pick X profession or be punished by suffering inadequacy.

They should un-nerf it.
And bring back 600/smite also.

The game lost most of the fun things we could do in the past.

I've never really used invinci builds but that doesn't mean I want them nerfed.
A lot of people really enjoy using these builds and, if it makes the majority happy, I think these builds should stay as they currently are.
The onslaught of SCs HAS lowered prices for most rare-skin weapons but a lot those skins were doomed the moment EotN came out (anyone remember sephis axes, ele swords and legendary swords?) and when they do go down in price say from 300e to 30e it puts the weapons in reach of players who don't have as much money but likely gain it from non-SC methods. Just because someone isn't a l33t ecto trader who can make thousands of ectos a day through powertrading asian minipets, doesn't mean they should not have access to the rarer, and often better looking, weapons.
In addition, when GW2 eventually comes out most of these weapons will be useless anyway, with only a small remaining player base, they can't be taken into GW2 and prices will probabaly fluctuate even more.

/notsigned

I do have to lol when players do say about the economy and bring up weapons and sometimes minis like dhuum.Why do i lol ?
Because its not anet who sets the prices but us players and that means its not anet to blame but ourselves.
A damn gd example i can give is consets - last time i was in toa ( just before xmas ) consets were priced at 8k and we all know how easy its to farm the mats - even a new player could farm them after a few days as the builds have been on pvx and here on guru.But when i went to toa yesterday i was surprised to see them going for 9k - a 1k hike which when i looked at the mats prices from npc theres only a slight flux in the prices.We`ve all seen feathers before rise and fall in price but you tell me how the hell can it force prices up when we know for a fact if you farm the mats you make approx 6k profit a set ??.
Before you assume im a conset user im not - i do every so often sell bulk consets when i need the cash but i know the profit margin and to me it looks like either the true conset farmers are getting greedy or the ppl who cba to farm conset mats and buy them off players are getting greedy and players are just following suit.
Is the conset price rise donw to anet - nope as i dont see npcs selling them but again its us players.
In the real world - if you had say mcdonalds and burger king in the same street trying to get customers you see a price war and often nice offers but if theres only 1 of them in the entire town then there isnt any real offers - no competition.
Players who sell ambraces moan the prices drop - i bet even now they moan if ectos went to 15k each but players who want to buy them are happy the prices drop as they become more affordable.
Has gw become a game of greed where everything is greed driven ( and i dont mean the players who want obby armor for the first time for their HoM ) i play the game , and i have a nice amount of cash but im not driven to be the richest player in gw with every uber high weapon etc - hell in almost 4 yrs of playing ive never got myself obby armor as ive never had the need nor do i spend each day attempting to get rich.Some days im lucky if i cba to make over 10k and other days im lucky if i make any cash at all and i know theres many players out there like me - if we need cash we know to make it easily.
Thats the end of my wall of text and someone else can climb on the preachers pulpit and take over lol.

Lets put it this way.
invincibuilding always fun even when there was nothing valuable to farm(look at totem axe and griffons)
truly soloing an area is fun to alot of players because it makes their character feel important/strong.
GW2 is a soloable game which meant Anet learned from GW1 that heroes/setting the pve world mechanic into a 8 vs. X play style is not fun.
A game that plays itself is not fun(FF13).

All I know is that my PvE warrior is completely useless in every HM pug group elite area, except DoA, and that's only thanks to a really overpowered elite that other classes still use better.

If you can't see how solo builds simply don't work in a massive multiplayer online game, you shouldn't be commenting on this thread.

Given, there's is no universal right or wrong in this matter, but an easy analogy can be drawn to similar situations which do have universal rights and wrongs. Think scamming for example: Not one person in their right mind would allow scamming to be part of the game, and therefor it is concidered universally wrong.

By allowing solo builds, or even highly specialized teambuilds which can only be played by certain professions (Assassin), you're not only taking away the ability for the non-used professions to farm/get XX item/gold, you're also devaluating the market price of that item/gold by allow many others to farm it instead.

"Make a sin" is offcourse always an option, but then Anet should ball up and rename their game: Assassin Wars. If this is an arguement for anyone (anyone can make a sin), the community has come to a really sad state.

Tough note: I have nothing against solo farming and specialized team builds. I think UWSC's are a rather competitive business, and solo farming certain areas gives an amazing feeling. I was one amongst the first wave of 55 Monks (back in beta/right after) back when you used to get 10-15 ectos per smite run. (Before loot scaling)
Being able to solo things, or steamroll them with friends is something that should be a viable option, but the problem is that the rewards increase exponentially compared to playing the game how Anet intended it to be played.

So by allowing these builds to exist, you're not only giving the choice to people to run these builds, you're also taking away the choice to not run these builds, because they're so redicilously ineffective compared to the farmbuilds.

So this reduces the intire discussion into a simple choice:

a) Do you want everyone to have a hard time gaining resources, but they're worth alot.

b) Do you want to force people into certain professions, farming easy resources which are worthless, and even more worthless for the non-farmers.

SF is still overpowered, but thats old news and beaten to death.

For those that say SF is not overpowered, check out the speedclear records page.

Given the players in there combine SF with good tactics, SF centered teams have the ability to do fow in under 10min and doa in half an hour, etc etc

If thats not overpowered, i don't know what is?

Guild Wars generally is not a solo game and numbers on your screen are generally double or triple digit. With your view why not make all skills do over 100,000 damage, instantly recharge, and give players unlimited armor/health?

That isn't a game. That isn't fun. The game needs boundaries to be rewarding and balanced.

God mode is only a good idea in single-player games, so they can have fun without affecting anyone else.

In multi-player games, any form of invincibility only lets you do things you should not do, since you doing them like that is unfair for players that won't or can't use such gimmicks and mechanic loophole abuse.


When removing those things leaves a profession completely degraded and barely usable in PvE, then that profession must be fixed, but they should not keep the gimmicks.

No idea how long you've been playing, or how much you know of past farming builds, but WARRIORS were the first and the best at farming smites in UW. They still are btw. Warriors dominated the farming scene for years, because they are very, very strong. And warriors are still the foundation of FoW clears, so saying you're useless in every elite area is a whole load of bullcrap all together. There are plenty of manlyway builds for dungeons, DoA (manlyway DoA used to hold the record for quite a while) etc etc.

If you can't see how this game actually works, you shouldn't be commenting on this thread.

which is why i am so glad that GW2 is a solo based game.(why do you think presearing is sooo fun?? because people are soloing) Most people in GW enjoy invinci builds and Anet can see that. The fact that they made a business decision to make GW2 the way it is means you fanboys of hero/hench are the minority.

hero/hench gameplay is like Salt and Vinegar potato chips, Not alot of people like them but there's still some fans.
Solo gameplay is like Nacho Cheese flavor.

Or a game analogy
Call of Duty MW2 vs. the new medal of Honor
certain changes just makes the game more/less enjoyable

Nuff said

PS how does solo gameplayer relate to doing 100000000000000000damage?

clarify "invincibuild"

better yet, post an example of a build that is truly invincible in every single area of the game on its own.

i think you're more upset with how some professions utilize many defensive skills to give them specific protective advantages in certain in-game areas.

and that, my friend, is playing the game, knowing your enemy, and picking a synergistic skill-set to trump the area.

crying about how the game has evolved over 5 years won't bring back your prophecies glory days.

At this point it's really more trouble than it's worth.

Warrior's weren't the first solo farm, Monks were. Given, Warriors have the natural ability to tank, but even their armor couldn't match up against smites and/or Aatxes. Unless you've been playing another game, I would love to see the builds warrior used to solo smites with.

The ONLY thing I can recall doing damage back in the day was either SS, Shield of Judgement and Balthazars Aura. And offcourse cyclone axe spam, but it's not like that killed fast by any measures.

The ONLY Warrior UW solo pre-factions I knew about was before the superiour absorption nerf, and even then, I don't remember the exact skills, but I highly doubt a W/Mo would've killed faster than a 55 Monk pumping balthazar's auras.

Also, you're correct about the FoW. That's a commonly ran build, but everythign else. "manly"-way isn't by any means fast. It's fun, it's good for a change, but there's a reason why every SC happens with Sins. I maybe shouldn't have said warriors are useless, because I knew someone would turn it around in: "Warrior's aren't useless, therefor your intire post is wrong"

The essence of my first post still holds all value it did before. Single professions having acces to the "solo"-PvE (including shadowform poop) are not good for the game.

Let me rephrase: they are good for the game, as long as people gain less than 1/8th rewards of a full team. In other words, playing with 8 party members gets promoted over playing alone, but playing alone is still an option.

Speedclears and such simply need to go. I've you don't see how a massive flood of goods pumps the market down and devaluates everything there is (when that good happens to be the currency), I gues you've never had basic economics before...

I would say /signed , not because it's too OP , but because less OP builds got nerfed in the past , places like UW got much harder for non sc teams ( whereas SF are still able to finish it easily..), almost every dungeon can be run by a SF, etc.... Also , because players are getting way too arrogant with these fast farms....

When you remember on the early prophecies people being happy after getting 10k on elona reach after some hours , and now people are like " omfg 2 mn too late to finish uw " or like " nice joke only 5 ectos upon 2 runs " .. really....

Originally Posted by gremlin View Post
It really doesn't influence how I play the game
I have tried many of the invincibuilds and find them boring.


My game experience
I have played very little pvp because the setup is entirely wrong you need areas for newbies to play and others for the more seasoned players and free areas where anyone can play.
Until they do that pvp will be ignored by me.

pve in the first couple of years was great I joined a guild "still in it" and had loads of fun with pugs Guild and Alliance members.
Last 2 years has been 99% solo just me and the Ai with occasional missions with friends.

I play what classes I like whenever I like and with what builds I like.
The day players started dictating my build before I joined their party was they day I stopped caring about what other players did in this game.

Pugs are a free area you play what and how you want to and if you want to form a team and order every team skill then go join a guild.
Most of these petty dictators are not in guilds because they are so annoying they have been chucked out and seek to organise every player they meet.

Tough I am not playing YOUR game I am playing MY game so as I said go ahead play one class one build invinci or otherwise I hope you have fun.
What you does in no way affect me.

GW 1 is not a multiplayer game and hasn't been for some time it is mainly a loose collection of solo players who get together to farm cash items and titles.
Hence the reason for dictating builds, if you nerf every single build currently used for farming they will be replaced in a week by others.

I am not trying to come over all hostile with anyone here just calling it as I see it.
Anyone coming up with a way of fixing this game that looks as though its worth trying will get my 100% support

This isn't Guild Wars 2, you can't balance a game that wasn't meant for such play with such skills. Pre-Searing is enjoyed for many reasons including nostalgia and simplicity. I hardly full H/H and only when I feel I must, so stop with the made up who's the majority and assuming what kind of player I am.

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:W/D_Manly_UW_Farmer

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:W/Me_Hund...ades_UW_Farmer

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:W/any_Enduring_UW_Farmer

And, ok, you were right about the monks being first to farm UW, gotta give you that, but warriors are still pretty good at farming, and tanking, Ssins are currently just better at it, which is why they're preferred, I remember when Defy pain tanks, or Obby Flesh warriors dominated the farming scene, hell, if you dig up old DoASC threads, you will find OF warriors were the tanks back then.

And, the 1/8th thingy, it's called lootscaling, and Anet did that YEARS ago, so you're kind of late with that.

What are you crying about?? 600 and SF are not invincible anymore. 600 can still tank all day long but do little to no damage without outside assistance (human smiter). The fact is, 600 is very viable tank build that serves its purpose: staying alive. SF only blocks spells now but is still very susceptible to attacks. (I dare you to run in a group of rangers or melee in HM with SF up and tell me your not getting hurt). While the SF tank can still stay alive with SoD and Mental Block etc, it isnt invincible in the least.

I think Anet balanced the tank builds out pretty well.

/notsigned

So from looking at your post I have realized two things:
Your made you can make as much money as you use to whilst powertrading/ farming slow-mode and you hate poor people.


not signed too many threads is more than enough. no need for nerf make other skills better. Next VoS is going to be overpowered.

I'm going to make a post about getting people short bans for making stupid repetitive threads.
People please dafs before you make a thread. Thank you -Perma

Irrelevant.

Partially relevant. The metagame dictates how willing people are to accept a diverse party

Wrong. You are playing a game formed with a non official socialized construction of tendencies, patterns, and rules.

A player who wants to go as a Dervish in a SC run is out of luck because the typical norm of GW's metagame does not involve Dervishes. Due to these non official social rules that are invented to increase efficiency, speed, and ease of SC runs, other players are being excluded.

I believe this is due cause for nerfing Shadow Form as it contributes to the exclusion of many players and professions and because it reduces the game into a single tactic of speed clearing high end areas for profiteering.

If GW1 is not a multiplayer game, how are there multiple players playing within the same game environment interacting with eachother?

You contradicted yourself.

You should look up the definition of multiplayer.