Dervish Update Preview

No change to the craptacular dervish dance?

Great ANet! My Dervish has been parked for so very long! Can't wait to see the Supreme Bench Warmer become my Star Quarterback!

Agree! Dervish Dance sux, btw when is this update coming out?? o.O?

love what i seen so far. but im still not playing my derv anymore. she only need 5 more titles for gwamm and they are ones i can get on other chars. i wont get excited for this update until the day it comes out. cause how long have they said we would get it and never did? xD i wont count my chickens before they hatch.

How can you say that?!
Have you seen where the dance originated from and who danced the dance first?!

ontopic...
I wonder what will become of the avatars...

Well, I wouldn't put it exactly like that, but I agree.

To fix the problem of sins/wars having variants on the best dervish build that are better than the dervish's variant, a-net can either (a) nerf sins and wars, or (b) give dervishes an alternative build that is just as good or better. A-net has chosen to go with the second option. As long as they pull it off, it will work just fine. It should not matter if dervs can never attack spam as well as sins so long as dervs can accomplish just as much by enchant juggling.

It's awkward, not out-and-out bad. A fully-planned team can usually build around it. For instance, Gyre would sometimes run a VoS scythe sin on HM UW physway runs that would destroy absolutely everything in a couple of hits.

ZV says "hi." Have you played dervs a lot recently? That dervs can easily afford AScan is kinda common knowledge.

It's a great skill synergy-wise. Dervs rely on big packets, and BuH multiplies those packets up to huge. What it's not is a good skill uptime-wise. I like it a lot more on an AP build than a melee.

This really doesn't belong here, but:

1. Don't blame MoP for degenerate tank-n-spank stuff, blame Shadow Form. Every AoE skill becomes overpowered if you aim it at the oversized balls of monsters a SF tank can gather. Nerfing MoP will just move more tank-n-spank degenerates over to Keystone, Savannah Heat, etc. It's tank, not spank, that's the problem. I agree 100% that SF should be nerfed to death, and take tank-n-spank with it. Unfortunately, the last SF "nerf" leaves me with the impression that a-net does not agree.

2. MoP certainly does benefit non-tank-n-spank builds. In fact, AP-MoP is the best curse build by miles right now. (Haven't played a lot of necro recently either?)

3. MoP, in its native state, is not only balanced, but encourages good play. The awful recharge requires you to use good timing and placement, and the fact that necros lack physical damage requires teamwork to get good results. AP takes away that recharge, thereby taking away the need for good timing and placement. AP, of course, is a bit overpowered in PvE just be virtue of being rather easier to trigger than in PvP. On top of that, the huge single-target damage from Norn shouts+Vanguard Sin makes it almost too easy to trigger. The need for teamwork is taken away by being able to trigger your own MoP with Vanguard Sin. As I hope you can see, PvE skills are the real culprit here. However, it looks like a-net intended PvE skills to be this strong, so I wouldn't expect a fix, well, ever.

I'd rather have GDW to keep stuff in adjacent range, unless Splinter is providing that last bit of damage for an insta-kill.

The only synergy is added spikiness; DPS is not increased.

I had that thought too. My ranger used a scythe exclusively for almost a year. The only reason I could pry it from her hands was because she suddenly fell for spears instead. XD

So VoS is allowed to be awkward but AoHM isn't allowed to be 1/10th as awkward?

Yeah, I knew I was forgetting something. Haven't played a derv much in over a year. Haven't even played melee at all in about year actually, its far too overpowered on any class and C-spacing to victory is pretty boring.

25% isn't what I would consider amazing when every decent derv bar requires AoHM+SY, and that leaves only 1 slot open for a debateable PvE skill. I agree that is really only has a place on an AP bar.

Saying that AP-MoP is the best curse build by miles doesn't mean much when 95% of curse skills are utter shit and the 4% excluding MoP aren't near worthwhile enough to make a build around. Its usefulness is in direct proportion to the amount of tanking-n-spanking you do (note: I may have a more lenient definition of tank-n-spank than you), thats all there is to it.


It seems what you call 'good timing and placement' is identical to what I call 'tank-n-spank'. Unless you are specifically luring enemies together with a tank then at most MoP is only going to hit 1, maybe 2 other enemies under most circumstances.

Certainly, AP is ridiculously overpowered on any skill that has a 30s+ duration for a reason. Unfortunately its the only way casters other than E/Mo eles and Channeling rits have any relevance at all in PvE these days.

DPS is certainly increased when you kill things in 3 hits instead of 5 and are halfway along to the next mob in time to get the next SW. If stuff is running out of range due to AoE spam you should be killing it faster, IMO.

Sins do more damage than rangers, while warriors spam SY. (Albeit, scythe may still be the best ranger weapon.)

The whole dervish update is premised on the 3rd best scythe wielder in the game not being overpowered enough, what makes you think people have time for 4th best...

Quoted for emphasis.

Damage converts are okay if they are optional and self contained - something you do if you miss support to emulate a bit of it (like going /e for conjure).

Being de-syregized with your team because it is mandatory way of running your class is bad.

---

But there are solutions: holy converts can also produce package of zero physical damage which can interact oop/barbs/mop/whatever naturally.

I hope this quote isn't too old to respond to yet, but I have to say that after extensive testing and messing with the Dervish in HM, I would confirm quite the opposite.

Firstly, the Dervish has a perma-base +25 hp thanks to his armor. This means he doesn't lose out on +hp when using a two-handed weapon (Scythe). That may seem small, but when you consider enemies are dropping like flies and dying fast, it greatly increases your chance of having higher hp than your enemy in HM just seconds into the battle.

Secondly, how many enemies actually have more HP than the player for more than two seconds in HM? I think this view on the playerbase is greatly exaggerated to be honest..

Anyways, they said they changed 90% of the skills. I'm sure Intimidating Aura will be smexy

mallyx/dhuum/urgozz/kanaxai/shiro and some more that i can't think of atm

Lol, people arguing dervishes are bad in pve...

Since when did "worse than" became "terrible"? A scythe as a whole is one of the most overpowered things in PvE. The only problem is supplying the energy to pump attack skills. (But even auto attacking with splinter = lulz) Not even an IAS is needed, as dwarven master supplies every professions with a possible 30/30%.

Heck, I'm fairly convinved an E/D with scythe attacks, a conjure (which ignores armor), dwarven master and then 2-3 free skills for energy/defence would pump more than any other ele bar you can throw together. (With MAYBE the exception of Sliver armor, but that's attributed to Shadow Form being able to tank a million enemies)

Same can be said for Monks, Necros, Warriors, Rangers and Paragons.

A buffed Scythe does redicilous amounts of damage, and while I definatly praise the upcomming update for the breath of fresh air, it is in no way needed because Dervishes are far from useless (or even underpowered) in PvE.

to bad i don't got a derv to proof how pimp dervs are in pve(and u can use zealous scythe for energy, lol)

Anyways i adore the pious update, tired of losing protective spirit.
Not worried about losing anything the scale reminds me of the big skill updates we used to get before GW2 work started.
Conceptually will likely feel like the exact same class, but more efficient. Get enchants, strip them. With stripping actually working now.

Don't see how this puts Dervs as the primary scythe wielders over assassins and warriors though. The dervish was fine in PvE, but it wasn't the best at it's job.

Also surprising lack of the more...caster based aspects of the dervish. Arcane Zeal, Pious Renewal, imbue health, etc. What will befall those? Will they be changed to fit what appears to be a greater push to have offensive dervishes?

Hoping for some fast paced gameplay.

I still remember the Dervish bombs from nightfall release, can I be a bomb again? Difficult when earth & cold damage are elemental and everything and their mom is resisting it. Terrible in pve when your giant nuke does like...40 damage to something in HM...if that. Looking at the damage, Mystic twister really won't be doing more damage, so it's still crap damage in HM, worse if there is rangers.

Still and always will play my Derv & Sin, I look forward to the changes.

Im gonna play my dervish now. Deck it out in gear and a DSR

I agree with ensoriki, I loved playing the Derv Bomber with a shadowstep and literally exploding at shrines and such.

I hope to be able to play solely enchant based builds around that concept, and I hope that the recharges on Flash chants take into account a completely caster based build concept as well.

Might be nice to see staves and wands/foci with Mysticism requirements added in too!

You mean the stupid female dance or the legendary male dance?

The female dance is cool too.

It goes round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and round, and

@_@

Awawawaw...

I think I'm got motion sickness...

I HATE bomber builds. They basically exploit the fast respawn to quickly move to some places and kill themselves to take people with them.
Unfortunately, it's very hard to detect if someone kill themselves, but if it was, I would give suicide players +20..60 seconds of waiting time until they respawn.

People should try to stay alive and fight other players to win, not avoid other players and suicide-bomb NPCs.


But I do agree with the caster melee weapons.

There are 7 martial weapon types, but only 2 caster types.

You could pick some staff skins, give them hammer animations, to make quarterstaves, and some wand skins and give them axe animations to make maces, and there you go, some caster melee weaponry.

MELEE STAFF, MELEE STAFF.

omfg if they make Mysticism staffs attack in melee... I would...burst.
Just take the animation for Swords or Scythes, and make them use that animation when using staves that requre Mysticism.
Would be so boss.

Well of course they would have, IF said Dervish were better with their own weapon. There are multiple character slots of course, and even PvP-only characters. So whether PvE or PvP, there is a large portion of players looking to min-max, that's the whole reason why they use characters with a scythe, it does the most damage, and slapped on a War, Sin, or even Ranger does more damage with better e-management.

That's a given, seeing as how Scythes and Dervishes were added after Factions, so it was kind of impossible to choose the Dervish first. But the point remains that the Dervish and Scythe were poorly implemented if everything works better on a different primary. Hopefully the update will address and fix this issue.

Its the same issue with things like E/Mo Ether Infuse/Prot builds, a single skill allows one gimmick build. The difference is that this one gimmick does not marginalize an entire profession into obscurity, both the Monk and Ele have a plethora of viable builds in both PvP and PvE, unlike the Dervish. Yes, you CAN play a multitude of Derv builds, but they are all under-powered compared to their competition.

Except Dervishes will now be better with their weapon, and possibly secondary options and play styles, so that they're more likely to be taken along in the average player's repertoire and groups.

Yes, and the Derv will have a multitude of viable builds thanks to it being buffed and see more representation among the player base.

Attack skill spam says hello. Obviously the Dervish isn't focused on pure melee, due to its enchant/hybrid design, but that part is heavily flawed at the moment and unless this update makes it viable a non-issue. The point is, the Dervish as is IS a melee character with weak support skills, which is why other better designed melee classes do better.

Not really, the problem here is that the Scythe is then the only weapon dependent on multiple attribute lines, which would absolutely destroy any secondary usage. I don't want to ruin it for others, just make it better for Dervs, along with their support lines. Of course, the other issue is OP PvE skills, but thats an issue of power creep. If the update fixes the Derv's support skills, and as I've suggested gives a bit of bonus damage with flash enchants that require 4 Mysticism, we'll definitely see a Derv renaissance lol.

Unfortunately this is a MMO, not an adventure game or tabletop RPG. Damage is the root design of a melee class, and is what most judge as its worth. Of course the Derv DOES have alternatives like healing and enchant spamming (Orders Derv) which I hope they make better or keep, but the change notes saying Mysticism operates like Expertise sans the energy and health gain at the end worries me a bit.

The problem with this idea is that certain power creep PvE skills have a greater effect with certain classes than others. AoHM is a purely melee skill, so it benefits purely melee characters more than hybrids, which is why attributes like Strength and Critical Strikes works better with it than Mysticism.

If the Derv works with its own weapon best, than that's a huge start to making it a more viable frontliner in general play. IF ANet gets the other fixes right, then the Derv may begin to show just how powerful it can really be.

I disagree here too. CA requires a non caster class to work, and TNTF while possibly open to abuse non-linked, would require a profession to go /P when for many builds there are better support options. AoHM has shown the scope of its abuse when even Rangers are able to do more damage with a Scythe than Dervishes.

In the end equation, Dervishes built for damage must be competitive with the other frontline damage classes, otherwise there's no point in taking them over other, better designed professions, other than aesthetic reasons. And for the GW playerbase at large, min-max munchkinizing is the order of the day.

When I said bomber builds, I meant with ones that included shadowsteps like AoD or Shadow Walk which could get you into range, unload your enchant "payload" and warp back out, taking little to no damage, while the enemy had about a bazillion conditions and taking steady damage to death!

I better hope so, theres a reason why guardian and weapon of warding got 1 second cast. Sigh if every single caster is going to run around with even more instant cast defensive skills its not going to be a fun time for my ranger. The tactics buff was abused enough.

I suppose you used Extend enchantments or Mystic Sandstorm. Those don't kill as fast as suicide-bombing, and you stay alive, so I'm cool with them.

Originally going to put this on wiki, but it doesn't have a comment section per each dev update.

:Aura of Holy Might should be linked to Mysticism. I can't believe this hasn't been addressed. If I were to suggest an update that would be the first thing I change to make scythes more powerful for Dervishes than Assassins.
:Permanent avatars were pretty shoddy, which is why "These restrictions exist because permanent avatars would simply be too strong" baffles me. Melandru was/is a waste of energy that could be used for attack skills, Grenth has mediocre life steal (okay for hard mode), Dwayna was only used for farming since single target hex spam removal with a mediocre heal isn't exactly useful on a melee, Lyssa only worked on skill spam with a slow enough cast speed (~1.3 seconds) unless you go with daggers,and Balthazar was by far the worst (holy damage = Aura of Holy Might, increased movement speed and +40 armor is not that great for 2 slots taken up with Eternal Aura when you can bring Conviction and any movement speed buff of your choice).
: The problem with the whole flash enchantment thing is unless your enchantments ending does some +20 damage (armor ignoring) or something you're better off with attack skills. The Balthazar change suggests that it would be energy intensive to keep foes burning. I retract this statement if there is no aftercast and you attack while casting enchantments.
: Aura slicer's change is also odd due to adrenaline cost. Bleeding is terrible in PvE, so I guess the only reason to bother with it is for the Cracked Armor.
: Twin moon sweep is adrenaline? Stuff that cannot be blocked should probably remain energy-based.
: Reap Impurities would screw with other people's builds that apply burning and weakness and it costs 10 energy currently.
: Mysticism:It sounds like Expertise for Dervish enchantments, which is a good thing.
: Stopping the removal of Protective Spirit using Pious Assault/Pious Concentration/etc. is a great thing.
: Also hero AI with flash enchantments needs to be addressed.
: With all this enchantment hate, Elementalists are now the worst thing to run in PvE.
: Cheers for the long-awaited update on the update.

Not stopping for the cast/aftercast would be the only difference, although I still don't know that I would want to see the flash mechanic on non-offensive and secondary viable skills. But any defensive enchants are already 1/4, and otherwise they will function in the same way. Except for qknock/rupting I guess, but if you're running that over a stance I'm not sure how much it matters.

Kaleban
Not even bro. Before certain updates after the Dervish was released there wasn't this issue. When the Dervish was released AOHM did not exist, Asuran scan did not exist, etc. The dervish had skills that had not been nerfed, etc. Dervish fell from it's place overtime. It's not because of the weapon per say but what they did around it afterwards. The Dervish didn't age well to put it quickly and to the point.


Mithran.
Considering you've been here since 2006 if anything I'd think you'd remember the old dervish bomber. That got nerfed as time went on as well.

Mystic Sandstorm, Mystic Twister, and then toss on some enchants that did damage when they ended and then Heart of fury...or was it heart of holy flame, one of the two to do burning after mystic sandstorm.
You used Aura of displacement so that as soon as you used Mystic sandstorm AoD canceled you were warped out of range and could flee until your skills recharge.
Was used in RA, and other places. Fun build though the recharge time left a lot of time running around doing nothing.

---
Remember the Imbue health healers using AoM or Arcane Zeal?
Pious Renewal being used.
Dervish has been fun throughout the ages.
The new players missed out on the good times for the Dervish.

I wonder about this whole energy thing with mysticism.
When I was thinking about it prior to this update preview, I did number crunching before for things like enchantment expertise, and it just didn't flow too well with recharge times.

They should've said the skills that they didn't change if it's 10% of skills. Considering the amount of skills dervs had listing the 10% that didn't change wouldn't be a lot.

Would like to see AoHM and ZV into FEs; I hate precasting enchants before diving into a mob!

Clearly you've never heard of a Spirit's Strength Rit the second part is just wrong. R/D is forced to slot a 4th(!) attack skill for energy management giving them one less optional. All the while that D/W is going to be happily spamming away without energy concerns and simultaneously providing SY!, something a Ranger can't do.

You are overly focused on DPS when you shouldn't be, only one combination legitimately out damages D/W and that is A/D at the cost of SY!. W/D gets a the edge because of one skill and it isn't AoHM. In practice, not some theorycrafting garbage, W/D and D/W are for all intensive purposes identical.

Since it continues to come up, Critical Agility is a garbage skill if you are going for raw melee DPS. Every time it reapplies itself it goes to the top of the stack meaning it's consistently the first thing stripped. Losing your only IAS source because you landed a critical hit and got shattered, chilblained, etc. for the duration of a fight sucks.

Take note, and this is related to one of my earlier comments, that the state of the game and build diversity has suffered somewhat due to the uniformity imposed by OP PvE skills.

The introduction of such, including AoHM and Asuran Scan exacerbated the prime problem with Dervishes, that they have (soon had) a subpar caster focused primary attribute that doesn't do anything for them in melee.

Strength and CS are much better primaries for melee, and since apart from a few fringe enchant based builds, Mysticism does nothing in that regard, the Dervish fell out of favor over time as build strategies became more compressed and in PvE, incorporating powerful PvE only skills.

If Mysticism in its new incarnation has some passive effect, or is given the "req 4" link for certain skills or benefits, then Dervishes will finaly shine with their own weapon.

But I really think that the attraction to the scythe is AoE damage, and PvE skills in conjunction with CS for example far outstrip the Dervishes natural ability.

I believe that the best solution is to add a req 4 Mysticism tertiary effect to all flash enchants that add a small damage range to the scythe. This way AoHM is still generally viable, but with just a couple flash chants, the Dervish gets MUCH better damage with the scythe tahn secondary users.

Not necessary.
When it comes to the Assassin scythe vs Dervish scythe only 2 things need to be noted really.
Way of the Master and AoHM.
Without WotM for consistent criticals, Siphon Strength or WotA has to be taken.
Siphon strength is out of the way meaning WotA would be taken for consistent critical damage. So the Dervish benefits in the flexibility with elites.
In terms of AoHM it's been said before if sins has insufficient usage with this it would hurt them.

I think if AoHM's duration scaled with Mysticism like Critical agility scales with Critical strikes, that would end that problem... that or the damage increase.

Why would we need to do anything to these Flash enchants that are already being implemented with balance in mind? It makes even less sense when Dervish enchantments will be giving back energy upfront meaning they can justify higher costing enchantments to make them easy for Dervishes to use and hard for other professions.
Hell they could make AoTM 30 energy if they wanted to and make Dervishes not pay the full price.

WoTA doesn't work with scythes fyi.

I have a Rit with a SS build that I run for fun sometimes, which is nowhere near its optimal DPS output compared to other builds. The happy spam Derv uses ZV, which means no WS or RS. Plus the Ranger does have Expertise, and while it can't run SY!, it can cause DW. Which allows one to kill something quicker, meaning less time chasing after monsters gunning for your backline. Tradeoffs.

Except the W/D has SY! too, Strength for armor pen and Power Attack, and its e-management is a maintainable and unremovable skill, and better armor across the board. Not very identical is it?

Of course, getting shattered as a Derv means no AoHM, ZV or any other enchants. In NORMAL play, CA is an awesome enchant, because in a heavy fight, if CA is being re-applied regularly, so are other chants, especially monk prots and the like. And even IF CA gets removed, the Sin has CS attribute, plus Critical Eye, etc.

The only reliable IAS for a Derv is either a Soldier's Fury build, using Drunken Master (60s recharge runs from Wild Blow!), or a few other sthat aren't maintainable. IAS is important for DPS, especially if ZV gets removed and your e-management just bottomed out.

So unfortunately, you're pretty much wrong about everything

^ Dervishes have Onslaught as a maintanable IAS.

and yeah to the other poster I forgot about WotA's change.

A rit with spirit strength and with a scythe can outdamage other melee, it just has god awful e-manage. The derv not having access to DW is irrelevant when using ZV allows it to fuel self buff like ascan, aohm, buh ect. to the point where it can kill enemies in a couple hits. Dervs>Rangers as far as scythe usage goes, don't try and pretend otherwise.

1. R/D cannot outdamage D/W via buff delivery to target, period.
2. You will never notice the difference Strength provides on DPS in HM except that it's a must have for WE.
3. Critical Agility is garbage always, WotA will mop the floor with it. Deep strips are a problem for everyone and you make it 10x worse when you constantly reapply your IAS to the top of the stack. You can cover ZV, you cannot cover CA.
4. Real men run Frenzy.

My guild actually runs these things on a regular basis and has done so for the better part of the last 18 months. Unlike the theorycrafting hysteria going on here I actually do know what does and doesn't work.

It's equally childish to want to keep warriors and assassins at their current power level with the scythe.

"No, I love abusing a weapon I was never intended to be able to use effectively in the first place! Make the other guy better at it instead of nerfing me!"

This kind of attitude leads to power creep. And it would require a huge degree of power creep to make the dervish be able to beat it's competition.

In order for the dervish to be able to be a better scythe user than warriors and assassins, it's primary attribute would have to become exactly the kind of ridiculously overpowered crap you claim you don't want. Why? Because Enduring Scythe and Critscythe are already ridiculously overpowered crap.

If Assassins want to use scythes to their full potential, they should have to make a dervish, just like how a dervish has to make an assassin to use daggers to their full potential.

No, dervishes are slightly better with the scythe than they are, mainly because rangers have even worse IAS options than the dervish does.

Zealous Vow builds are easier to use than the alternatives, because they provide more energy than you could ever need (so if you suck, you have more of a safety net).

No. 16 scythe mastery is not enough to close the gap. Not even close.

Scythe Warriors are used as well as Critscythe because Critscythe can't use SY.

It will take more than better IAS to make up for the difference in effectiveness between the dervish and it's competition. And the only way more energy management can help the dervish without deeper changes is if the dervish were given so much that they no longer need zealous vow, thereby freeing up a skill slot.

Conditions are generally useless.

Yes, a 10% difference in damage is nothing. Right...

You've played with us, we even took you on your first ever HM FoW clear in a phys team. It's a bad argument you know it's a bad argument so stop crying.

A 10% difference in damage is a 10% difference in damage. Whether it stops you from succeeding or not, it is what it is.

Except you just pulled that number out of your arse.