Dervish Update Preview

The difference on the attack skills against HM armor levels is effectively zero. This is why we use multiple base damage modifiers combined with armor ignoring attack skill bonuses and cumulative multipliers like ascan to achieve those 200+ DPS figures. It's all about how much armor ignoring damage you can stack together and deliver as quickly as possible through physicals. More importantly, if something survives past the first 3 hits and/or an auto you probably did something wrong.

Because a crappy class with a broken weapon was poorly introduced into the game, other classes that were fine before have to be changed, if they don't make my class the best, I'm gunna cry. All I'm hearing is sour grapes, just be happy a-net is taking the time at all to redo the dervish. All this crying revolves around the scythe, no1 is crying about dagger warriors or sword assassins are they, because the root of the problem doesn't stem from them does it, it's the scythe and the dervish's lack of talent with it. They should just delete the the thing so people would stop crying, instead of spending time to fix the dervish and still get so many people QQing all over the place.

Since most people seemed to miss my earlier post, I will summarize it again.

No one wanted to use Dervishes because they are currently a pain in the ass to use. Your necessary enchantments slow you down and are strippable, you need Wind Prayers to be useful, which means no Mysticism, and even if you ran Mysticism, Mysticism sucks. Onslaught, Whirling Charge, and Heart of Fury suck teh balls, so that leaves Zealous Vow, which means you have to stick to using only quick attack skills in order to keep up your DPS unless you use Drunken Master with alcohol, which is an unnecessary burden as well.

Terrible e-mangament and IAS; but worst of all, awkward to use as a melee character because of the casting time of enchantments stopping you.

The only changes they needed to do to make Dervishes fun and viable was buff IAS and e-management (more options, make Mysticism better), and most importantly, the flash enchantments they are implementing.

If the update addresses those changes, then they do not need to mess with AoHM other than to make it a flash enchantment.

Whatever...

This is the approach they're following with this update. Sounds clear enough to me.

Nice update.

So.. Can you pay some attention to Paragons after this please?

Thanks!

I doubt that the new flash enchantment builds will even come close to the DPS of a ZV build. Let alone a Crit Scythe Sin. If AoHM goes unchecked, the Sin will still be the best option in a balanced group. If Sins cant use AoHM they can still do as much or more damage than a Dervish with AoHM. But, the Dervish can bring "SY!" making it more valuable with a scythe. So yeah, AoHM is kind of a big deal.

Unless you can pump out around 100 DPS with PBAoE flash enchantments/new builds and more utility, the dervish may very well be in the same boat its always been in.

Maybe you should wait to see then.....

What has me excited for this update is the skill preview's Mystic Twister. If its formula is followed, say with Mystic Sandstorm pumping out Earth damage, one could use a Flash enchant or two and alternate the two skills, effectively AoE "pulsing" damage.

Then use a teardown scythe attack and gain the flash enchants benefit.

Whatever ANet does, they're going to have to be very careful about balancing the costs, cast times and recharges. to make the choice of going scythe, scythe/chant, or full chant equally attractive as playstyles. If they keep the enchants power too low, then there most likely won't be any effective change to the Dervish meta, and "flashers" will end up being goof builds.

I really hope they realize the state of their own game, especially in high end PvE, with the severe amount of enchant removal, high armor rendering non armor ignoring damage obsolete at best, etc. It could end up like the Elementalist, who seems powerful in Normal but is relegated to Support at best in Hard Mode, if at all.

Did something happen in GW1 that I am unaware of with Hard Mode? last time I checked on my Ele which happens to be my main, it's not all that taxing if you are a seasoned player. I understand fully, 100% that Elementalists have gone from GW main damage dealer to support(HM) over the years, but it doesn't change the fact that if you have played long enough to know how the class has evolved over the years it's not that big of a deal. Do I want to see them buffed in some way to bring them back to their prominent damage dealing role? Sure, but at this point, if the other classes are kept the same and you changed the Ele to do more damage...I think you see my point. I think the main problem happens to be PvE only skills that were introduced with EotN. Every class should have 3 of them on their bar at all times because they happen to be the strongest skills in the game.

Are you kidding me? I really want to know where people are getting the idea that a Dervish version of Expertise is really a good thing. A large part of the reason Dervs struggle to compete with scythesins/scythewars was because Mysticism does nothing for melee damage compared to Strength and especially Critical Strikes. An Expertise version of Mysticism does nothing to fix this problem.

They changed many Dervish skills and changed Mysticism to fit how they changed the skills. IMO this was the wrong way to do things. They should have made Mysticism competitive in melee worked on balancing the skills around it.

The new Mysticism, unless changed before release, will keep Dervs in the position they have always been, subpar in with their own weapon.

Thinking further if Mysticism acted like Expertise for all enchantments, instead of just Dervish ones, then the primary will actually be useful and dynamic. Think of it this way: Rangers use Expertise to reduce the costs of tons of skills, scythe attacks included. Either Mysticism should be able to reduce the costs of tons of enchantments, or Expertise should be changd to only reduce the costs of Ranger skills.

It's an inconsistency to make an enchantment version of Expertise but only allow it for a single class's skills while allowing the original expertise to be used for everything from dagger attacks to scythe attacks.

The difference is that flash enchants can be used WHILE hitting things with a scythe. Expertise isn't letting you compress two damage skills into one. Depending on how powerful the flash enchants turn out to be, Pulsating AoE + Derv scythe damage could very well end up beating War scythe damage, potentially even coming close to Sin scythe damage (and since Dervs can run SY they will be superior overall). Letting Mysticism be used for all enchants on all classes could lead to so many unforeseen balance problems that I don't know where to begin.

Mystic Twister has less damage than now in the preview.
Also, elemental damage is bad, when it comes to HM Mystic Twister won't be doing anything.

You're talking about flash enchantments, which are skills.And frankly I they will most likely not take up one or 2 slots on a skillbar since you can only have one active at a time. However, I was talking about the folly of the new Mysticism and making it into Expertise for Dervish enchantments only. See how those aren't the same things?


Again, this does not deal with the fact that Mysticism still cannot compare to Crit Strikes or Strength for melee. Skills do not equal primary attributes.

Maybe because there are enchantments can keep some1 alive indefinitely, it'd be a bad idea to give some1 infinite energy to do so especially in pvp, ER ele without ER? You haven't even seen the new Mysticism or most of the skills, it's kinda funny you think you know everything about it already, experts with no clue.

Can we please stop repeating that elemental damage is somehow 'bad'? Elemental damage scales no worse than physical damage in most areas, the only difference is that physical damage is often partially or wholly armor ignoring. If Mystic Twister was dealing armor-respecting physical damage it would hardly change at all in its overall usefulness (barring the ability to set off physical damage trigger curses once per use).

That's a ridiculously limited perspective. In the end skills are 95% of what a build is about.

Yes but you're comparing flash enchantments to a primary attribute. Flash enchantments can only have one active at a time, which severely limits their usefulness and will probably only take 1-3 (at most) on a bar. And sorry, Crit Strikes is a huge part of the Assassin.

It's naive to compare a type of skill that won't take up a large part of the skillbar to vastly superior primaries to Mysticism.

Do you not play HM, ever? Seriously, load a Dervish with Sand Shards and go use it on any random foes in HM. It's pretty damn funny how pathetically useless it is.

@ kunder # 295

with what they are planning with dervish skills it seems like mysticism would be necessary for dervish builds to fully utilize the caster aspect of the class, which is important because most of it's skills are spells or spell related.

@shoyon456

you seem to be so fixated on the melee aspect of the dervish, that you completely ignored most of the dervish's skills which are actually spells.

Do you not read entire posts, ever? Change Sand Shards to physical damage, the only difference is that its pathetic damage will be slightly lower on warriors and slightly higher on rangers. Its still equally pathetic either way, the important point is that armor-respecting damage sucks, whether it be physical or elemental.

Your tripping over the words used but anyone with sense knows that we explicitly mention elemental damage because there isn't +damage tacked onto it.

And how could you tack +damage onto a physical spell? You can't (other than options which work the same for elemental) so the distinction is meaningless. Its armor ignoring vs armor respecting damage.

Do you keep to the point, ever? I wasn't talking about physical vs. elemental damage you were. I was saying that if they expect Flash Enchantments/Enchantment spells like Sand Shards to make up for the fact that the new Mysticism does nothing to make them more effective at melee then we might have the same situation that we have now where scythesins/wars are still most effective with scythes. This is because Critical Strikes provides Emanagement AND DPS, and Strength gives DPS. Of course Scythewar options are pretty much kept with WE, but it's still a serious potential oversight.

Not to mention that it was a bad idea to model Mysticism after Expertise. Absolutely terrible idea.

Well Shoyon, you've always wanted your class "fixed" for GW 1, but now that the approach seems to be changing to the uniqueness of melee caster, flash enchantments, and teardowns, you just want to go back to swinging your scythe for large DPS.

Hey, you can go ahead and play a A/D if you want to do that, but I think the number of teardown skills are going to inhibit your effectiveness.

I'm making a derv just to try out this stuff, when it comes.

I like the update in general. Would like to see some other class' enchantments get Flash properties. For example:
Spell Sheild
Zealot's Fire

Infuse Condition
Hexer's Vigor

Persistence of Memory
Illusion of Haste
Channeling

Storm Djinn's Haste
Stone Striker
Flame Djinn's Haste
Armor of Mist
Frigid Armor
Intensity

Critical Defenses
...
...
Mental Block
Mindbender

Basically all enchantments that last less then 10 sec and those that can be used on melee classes as support skill (;

On a side note, I hope that the update won't mess with the derv caster builds. In fact I hope they buff a few skills to make derv casters better :P. I don't want dervs to become another "one trick pony" like imbagon or E/Mo ER.

Where are you coming from. He said it pretty clear that he believes if Mysticism doesn't give melee benefit that the assassin will still dwarf out the Dervish with a scythe.
He isn't necessarily right since Mysticism doesn't need to boost melee passively if there are skills within it that do so, but he is making a legit point.

A/D, Assassin this, A/D Assassin that, half the people playing sins are min/maxers cus I god damn know when I started my Assassin on factions release they didn't play like they do now. Why is my sin 3 skills with filler? Shadow form + Filler, Death blossom + filler, WotM + filler. Awesomes Q_Q.

/rant.

Well said. To be honest, I don't think the dervish scythe damage really matters. The dervish never was supposed to be a brute with weapons like the warrior and assassin but a hybrid. The hybrid never really worked as intended (well, it kinda did with the old Pious Assault, as long as you didn't mind stripping friendly monk enchantments along the way... but if you were in dwayna form you could afford to), but the update is aimed at fixing that. The important question once the update hits won't be whether the dervish can do more damage with the business end of a scythe than a scythesin or other /D, but whether the dervish as a whole is more effective and useful.

Mind you, I probably won't be shedding any tears if /Ds did happen to be hit with some collateral nerfage along the way.

Very good update preview, can't wait for this to go live.

Kind of difficult to be a melee caster when there are no weapons in game based off the primary attribute of the class.

Every caster class has a weapon and off-hand for each attribute, and while there are no weapons for Strength, Critical Strikes and Leadership, those three classes are in no way described as hybrid physical/casters.

That is solely the province of the Dervish.

In fact, before and after this update goes live, the Dervish is actually the "jack of all trades, master of none" type that usually describes a Ranger. A Dervish can hit in melee, but not as hard as others, a Dervish can cast spells and enchants but not as well as others...

Perhaps the reason many are focused on the melee aspect is simply because since its inception, the Dervish IS a melee class with a very minor and generally ineffective casting support role.

Because of this, and the fact that its taken considerable time for ANet to address these issues, many (myself included) are hoping that the Dervish is buffed to the point where swinging a scythe is what makes the class stand out given that its the signature weapon and has cool animations lol. IF ANet is also able to make the enchantment and spellcasting side just as attractive, then great! But its more likely that a buff/balance will be successful if it focused on the main aspect of the class, that of a melee profession with enchant backup.

I have high hopes for the update, but also some trepidation at what may amount to a bunch of half-measures that don't do anything to change the gameplay.

Sorry, haven't read the entire thread. Due to all the open hatred of the profession, I've always avoided the dervish. With the upcoming update I wanted to get ahead of the curve and get a new derv up and running. I'm beginning the understand the concept of putting up enchantments and then immediately "tearing them down" to get a secondary effect and a 4 energy return but clearly it is a flaw that currently monk enchantments will get removed just as readily. I'm glad the update will address this making it only dervish enchantments that get removed. I also now understand how much the casting time of the enchantments really screws up the flow of the battle, especially considering that the monster AI tends to want to run past you given the opportunity.

The update kind of reminds me a bit of the old arcade fighting games where you "power up" and try to pull off "combos".

One other thing that bugs me a bit about the update preview is how they are changing Mysticism.

For example, EVERY other primary attribute affects nearly every skill of its associated type. Such as Divine Favor healing for ANY monk spell, Strength affecting any attack skill, Critical Strikes affecting ANY attack, Spawning Power any summon etc.

The update notes seem to suggest that Mysticism's new Expertise like feature will ONLY affect Dervish Enchants, which makes it a poor cousin of Expertise and nowhere near as effective as other class primaries.

What ANet should consider is making Mysticism affect ALL Dervish skills, and extending to every other profession's enchant based and adrenaline based skills. This would at least support the idea of secondaries being useful, because as it seems to be now, the update is sort of focusing on isolating the Dervish from other professions.

That's got me thinking : a elemental-to physical conversion skill would be interesting. Would also help a bit derv/ele for team synergy. And if you ask me, that thematically fits for Dervish.

Well and to be fair, the amount of armor ignoring damage in this game is so ridiculous. When many of the high end PvE builds are built around armor ignoring damage, it kind of invalidates the point of armor in the first place.

They really should tone armor ignoring down a bit, and pump up the elemental damage (or allow those classes and builds that depend on elemental damage to have it scale up in HM) to take the focus off of gimmick/broken builds that totally rely upon it.

OMG, can you imagine a Ranger ritual that would convert all damage to Physical damage? That would be awesome.

Or how about a Monk Ward to change all damage to Holy, by-passing both extra physical and extra elemental armor?

Exactly one of the points I've been trying to make for god-knows-how-long. Although I'd rather see the new Mysticism reduce the costs of all enchantments. Similar to how the old Mysticism would get energy off all enchantments and similar to how Expertise affects all attacks, skills, etc...

And don't mistake me, I'm not saying that I want the Dervish to be solely a melee character, I'm simply saying that one of the problems was Mysticisms limit to being useful for enchantments while (as mentioned earlier) they are primarily melee (since we all know caster Dervs are not useful when compared to alternatives). As mentioned above at the current state the Dervish is a jack-of-all trades in its' ability to both cast and melee, yet a master of none since Mysticism is subpar for casting and does nothing to make it a better melee character than say...the Ritualist.

I had always hoped that Mysticism would be changed to give a melee effect (such as +2 holy damage) based on the condition of enchantments (for each enchantment on you) with a cap of course. This would tie the melee aspect and the enchantment casting aspect of the Dervish in one nice little ribbon.

Obviously Anet went a different way. Instead of changing Mysticism to tie caster and melee together in the Dervish, they changed numerous skills and specifically mentioned that they changed Mysticism in response to their skill changes. Sounds like they went ass-backwards in their process. Mysticism should have been the first thing to get looked at, not last. Of course its all speculative, so here's hoping that the actual update is completely different from what's implied in the preview.

The difference between the armor-ignoring damage between the three is very low, but that armor-sensitive damage does in fact mean something (at least with scythes anyway). Even against a monster with 110 armor, the armor-sensitive damage ends up being a significant portion of the damage.

Now, is this difference going to be the difference between success or failure? Most likely not (and if it were, one would probably not notice). The higher skill level of the average GWG user makes it even less likely that this will influence the outcome of combat. But inferior is inferior, regardless of the degree.

Actually, I got it from doing the math. And it's actually between 10-15% (varies depending on exact build and level of the enemy), but 10% is a nice round number.

Mark. Of. Pain.

Ok. The average base damage from scythe is what? Call it 35?
On a target with 80 armour at 16 Sycthe Mastery that's going to hit for 28.
At 12 Scythe Mastery with 16 Strength that's going to be 31.
At 110 AR we have 17 damage from the Derv at 16 SM compared to 20 from the War with 16 Strength.
+3 damage? Oh goody.


Now, that average of +3 damage on skills might keep up with the damage boost a Derv gets from his Mystic Sweep and Eremites (higher damage with fewer triggers - they're not maxed all the time). The real reason a War can outdamage a Derv is very, very simple.
Power Attack.

I really hope not. All the ideas you people have been proposing of to make dervish an effective boring pseudo-warrior are, well, I'll be honest, terrible. I would say they are so bad that even the idiotic idea of removing the dervish class from the game and giving the scythe to a warrior sounds better. Because, really, what's the point of a warrior-version-2? To further increase the chance of getting entire parties of melee characters in RA, maybe?

Dervishes are not supposed to be boring pseudo-warriors. Dot. It's clear they are not even supposed to be primary melee weapon damage dealers with one-two enchantments to buff them up, neither. Look at their skills. Most of them are spells, most of them interact with enchants (like the very own primary attibute) and most of the attack skills are not even supposed to be regularly spammed. The only reason of their current situation is because their entire class has been a failure. I don't want an update that buffs them physical damage to compete with sins and warriors, and keep 95% of their skills useless, sorry.

The thing I liked the most in this preview, is that anet dedicated themselves to make the dervish's unique and fun playstyle viable and less clungy. And not only with flash enchantments and a mysticism that activates at better times now. There are a lot of other details to consider. The Pious one, yes, but I especially like the idea of not having to buff them up with 3-4 enchantments to make them strong (so I disagree with your suggestion of mysticism doing +X something for each enchantment). I like how the new Mystic skills will work. Full power if you have one enchantment, nothing more.

Even more interesting, though, is the potential of avatars. Seems like Balthazar will make dervishes more like warriors, so here's the answer for anyone who wants them to be warriors. I wonder, will the other avatars allow them to act like other professions effectively too? I would love that.

Finally, you all sometimes forget that ZV builds, Critscythes and Endurscythes, the three BIG arguments against this new update, only exist because of the way the dervish works *before* this update. There's no garantee that the change they will make to scythes will or will not be relevant, nor if ZV, AoHM among others will be unchanged or adapted to the idea of enchantment removal.

If they actually did this, tone down how much armor-ignoring damage skills are in this game, PvE would actual go down a road to be fun and worth time. I approve.