Dervish Update Preview

AoHM converting damage to holy is something I'm on the fence about. OoP isn't that great (SoH/GDW/SW are better, much better, and ridiculously better respectively), and Dark Fury is already loloverpowered for SY spamming when combined with multi-hit attacks (and with the new adrenal skills it will be even more overpowered). If what we want to do is make every physical character run scythes because scythes are always better then change it, but if we want to add is distinction between weapons and different playstyles/synergies between classes then I would leave in the holy damage.

Well, the Rune Trader is happy about the up-coming update.
He's been selling out of every dervish rune in existence. Its a good day to be an NPC

WAAAAAAAAA? It's coming, FINALLY! New Lyssa's haste is awesome! Wow.. just wow. *goes off to re-install Guild Wars*

The reason AoHM is not satisfactory and the whole reason for debate is essentially that anyone can use it. Following your logic, everyone should also be able to make use of "There's Nothing to Fear!" and Critical Agility without need of the primary attribute. Obviously, ANet disagrees with your logic, and probably AoHM kind of slipped through the cracks, as many Dervish issues did, as evidenced by the massiveness of the update.

Anyone can also wield Daggers, and Spears, and make use of those weapon skills, but the buffs like CA and TNTF are linked to the primary attribute for a reason, because they are game changingly powerful. If any class could make use of CA or TNTF, the primary profession would lose focus and emphasis, EXACTLY as has happened to the Dervish.

MOST Sin builds that aren' prema farmers utilize CA because it is so good and synergizes so well with their primary. The Sin build isn't devoted to making CA work, CA makes Sin builds overall more powerful because of the lack of need to off spec for IAS. The fact that it auto-renews off the primary's main focus is just gravy. And Warrior's Endurance is an awesome elite for many builds, not just scythe, Axe builds say hello.

The point of contention is that War/Sin are better with the scythe than the Dervish, in large part to the only viable DPS build for Dervs is ZV/skill spam, and that all their skills are non-dependent on the primary attribute. I guarantee that if CA was put in Shadow Arts, a LOT more professions would use it, such as GFTE! Paras for example. The Dervish with the proposed changes may close the gap, but AoHM NEEDS changing otherwise the damage output difference in high end PvE will not close the gap and Dervishes will still be relegated to a tertiary role.

How is changing AoHM a nerf to other classes? Its designed for scythe use, and Dervs use Scythes as their primary weapon. Are you saying that CA should be changed to only allow Daggers? Its the same concept your logic is putting forth. War and Sin as you said yourself have a variety of builds, the loss of one or two scythe gimmick builds will not hurt them, and will definitely help the Dervish.

All of which are generally unused by ANY profession that doesn't also use a variety of skills from the same secondary. How many secondary Rits use Summon Spirits without any spirit skills? I would challenge you to design an effective build using a secondary's exclusive PvE skill as the ONLY skill from that secondary OTHER than x/w with SY!

I doubt there will be many D/N running Necrosis with a bunch of scythe attacks, or E/Me only using Cry of Pain as their sole Mesmer skill.

Like I have said for a long time, AoHM should be tied to Mysticism. That alone would pretty much make the Dervish best with the Scythe and give incentive to put points into his primary attribute. I'm kinda on the fence about the Holy damage conversion myself. I use SoH, SW, and sometimes JI, so it wouldnt bother me. But, it would be nice to have more control of what type of damage I do.

If nothing is done to AoHM, it wont matter how they change the scythe. Sins will still be the superior scythe user.

Really all I wanted from the Dervish update was a functionality change to AoHM and a decent/reliable IAS. If we get that, the rest is gravy.

I'm also assuming Avatar of Balthazar will give 1 extra adrenaline judging by the preview examples. If scythes can still hit three adjacent foes, that should be very fun skill indeed. Even with the adrenaline from AoB I doubt "SY!" Wars and Sins will be replaced. "SY!" doesnt stack but if you use both luxon and kurzick versions, they can be used to cover each other and overlap for the rest of the party.

EDIT: I agree with the previous post, tieing AoHM to Mysticism is not a nerf to other professions. Even w/o AoHM, a scythe sin can deal as much damage as a Dervish with AoHM. Even if you take the scythe builds away from Sins and Wars, its not like they dont have a plethora of viable options to fall back on.

This is why MoD tests are meaningless. They are plagued by inaccuracies such as the MoD's low armor and level, as well as the randomness of the RNG.

If you're not using AoHM, then you shouldn't be using the scythe in the first place. There are better options, such as daggers.

What makes you think half of those changes aren't "This skill becomes a flash enchantment"?

At best, the only thing the new AoB will allow is for DS-type builds that hit multiple targets. And that's only if the recharge issue is dealt with.

There was one skill in the leaks that may allow us to get around the issue of recharge times and disabling of flash enchantments. It depends on how exactly it will work, however. But it's probably the only hope for flash enchantments as a viable method of damage production (not necessarily the only hope for flash enchantments as a viable mechanic, however).

AoHM being tied straight to mysticism like Critical Agility is wouldn't nerf non-derv scythe users, it would make them completely useless. I would rather see something added to AoHM along the lines of : "Whenever you activate a flash enchantment you deal 5 damage per point of mysticism to all nearby foes" that doesn't completely make scythes useless for everyone else but still gives the Derv a firm advantage over other classes while using it. 5 damage per point is of course pulled completely out of my ass, it depends on how spammable flash enchantments turn out to be when the update comes.

Oh yes, heaven forbid that people use something for reasons other than damage, like.. I don't know, aesthetics perhaps?

Funny shit. Here is my feedback:

1. Intimidating aura is a crappy skill in HM. Most enemies have much higher HP than you, so it barely triggers. GG indeed. Please play the skills before you talk.

2. Did you even read "Avatar of Grenth" description? I guess not. Ok, go do it now, please...it gives life steal per attack hit successfully, and not on kill. Therfore, the skill I suggested is a WEAKER version of the elite. In case you haven't noticed...this has already been implemented in the Norn Brawl. So, GG again. Please play GW fully.

3. Currently, Mysticism does return energy on enchants ending. However, a dervish who prefers to not bring enchants (for reasons such as easy stripping by foes, waste of skill slot) and bring non-enchant based skills DOES NOT benefit much from Mysticism. Therefore, for all the other reasons suggested in this thread, Mysticism must work both ways - for dervish who uses enchants and for those who want to not use enchants. Hence, my suggestion to add a skill which reaps energy on critical hits is similar to how sins primary work, except that the skill I'm suggesting will probably need to be a stance such that it cannot be stripped, and will trigger only on criticals (hence conditional), which we know for a dervish occurs at a lower frequency than a sin. It should still help a lot with energy management WITHOUT having to bring enchants. Also, please no Zealout Renewal ...it sucks and is an easily stripplable enchant...which interferes with dervish attack skills.

The dervish class should offer balances: 1) Pure enchant builds, 2) Pure stance/melee builds, 3) Mix (such that melee builds don't strip enchants like ZR easily unless ofcourse it is strategic).

I'm glad they are at least balancing flash enchantments with "disables other flashes" clause. Reminds me of playing Sona on LoL, and god I had fun playing that champ.

The combination of lightning-quick enchantment juggling and plausible end effects through attack skills should make this class more fluid and versatile within its own skill-trees. Also, the insta-cast enchantments and controllable durations of these enchantments should make it more viable to run against certain spirit-abusing teams in a certain arena...

So what you're saying is, you don't want the Derv's skill to be exclusive to the class? As it is with CA and TNTF?

So basically you're against the Derv EVER being better with its signature weapon than other melee capable professions?

Look, the point is, to make the Dervish more attractive, you have to make it stand out. Many of the changes are doing that. But bottom line for PvE anyway, is DAMAGE. If, after all the changes, Sins and Wars are STILL better with the scythe because ANet did nothing to AoHM, then Dervs still won't be viable or desired. Which defeats the whole purpose in the first place.

Like I said on the last page, make AoHM just like Critical Agility, its only fair and fits the skill conventions. Make it self-renew when hitting multiple foes. This doesn't keep Sins and Wars or ANY class from using scythes, it simply makes Dervs better, as it SHOULD be.

In addition, have most if not all Flash chants add a small aggregate damage bonus to scythes that fail with less than 4 Mysticism, which would encourage bringing along more than one or two, and make the Dervish player think tactically about when its best to strip them.

If the bottom line for PvE is DAMAGE, why do parties take healers? Why not just roll 8 high damage bars and win?

Here I thought it was completely obvious that since we're talking about the Dervish update and its relation to the Sin and War, and occasionally Ranger, that the DAMAGE aspect of PvE was what was under discussion...

Well I don't play my Dervish to cause damage, I enchantment juggle and play more of a front line support role, with some damage of course.

It is perfectly possible to play a non-Derv scythe user without relying on AoHM. It wouldn't make them useless at all; it just would make the Dervish superior with their own weapon, as they should be.

Did you even read what I said? The next sentence after what you quoted was a huge buff to dervs

About as useless as a flare spamming ele. They would lose nearly half of their damage output. I challenge you to find any damage build in guild wars that would still be good at half its strength.

1. OoP should be used in addition to SoH/GDW.
2. OoP can be multiplied by AScan, VoS, BUH.
3. You're neglecting the curse line, most notably MoP. Forcing dervs to choose between participating in the strongest intrateam synergy in the game or bringing the only skill that gives them decent standalone damage really gimps the class. You're also missing out on barbs and well of ruin, but that's around OoP level.
4. Just on general principles, making an offensive class whose best builds are simply incompatible with your support class's best builds is just bad design. It discourages teamwork and team-level planning for builds.

Dervs aren't desired because they offer nothing unique and useful to the group, not because they kill monsters with a scythe slower. The damage argument is and has always been a huge pile of crap. This update appears to be trying to remedy the issue of being a unique profession which is a good thing and will do more for them than just bigger yellow numbers.

My guild actually runs melee heavy frontlines on a regular basis and uses Dervishes when people feel like playing them. Dagger sins, not the various scythe options, are still favored because of consistency, speed of buff delivery to target and optionals flexibility.

At this point you are getting into the negligible returns zone. +20 damage per hit means a lot when your base damage is 20. +20 damage hit means a lot less when your base damage is already 150. In the first instance you kill things 2x faster, in the next you kill things 15% faster. Given the time melee spends running around getting into position to hit things, and the amount of overkill you do, the total advantage is significantly less than that (estimate it at 5-10% or so).

Again, keep in mind the already insane synergy between dark fury and scythes. Its as easy to keep up SY as a derv + dark fury as it is with an Imbagon. You can't say "all weapons should benefit equally from x" when y in the exact same build benefits scythes 2-3x as much

True, but VoS is a bad skill, AScan is unusable for dervs due to energy requirements, and BUH really isn't an amazingly good skill synergy-wise.

First off, MoP is a ridiculously stupid skill that should have been changed long ago to something like a reverse-sliver armor. All it does is encourage the most degenerate of tank-n-spank while not benefiting other builds much.

If you are running MoP, you are running splinter weapon because lolshitdies. Splinter weapon already has inherent synergy with scythes that other melee weapons need PvE skills to replicate. So you lose 1 physical hit out of 3. Big deal, the mob still blows up instantly.

Barbs is a pretty meh skill for anything other than 10k HP bosses, otherwise it won't mean much. Well of ruin is pretty bad since you can't control where it goes (and if you have any other source of physical in the group it doesn't matter).

Its incompatible with 1 decent skill (with 3x compatibility with another skill on the same bar) along with being mildly incompatible with 1 good skill on another bar. Meanwhile it has full compatibility with another 2 or 3 buff bars that are usually as good or better then the ones mentioned prior.

If you want to complain about builds not being compatible with buffs, complain about EVERY CASTER IN THE GAME. The amount you can buff any physical character is ridiculous, and if AoHM could be buffed even further I don't think anyone would run anything else. We need more buff-incompatible builds, not less. Hell, a cap on buff stacking at +20 per hit, the same way everything else is capped, wouldn't be a bad idea. I would rather every class in the game have a very uniquely powerful build that is prevented by crafty tricks suck as this from becoming too powerful than every class being completely interchangeable cogs within the same build which ends up being buffed by all the same stuff.

Yes I read it.

And what would stop other classes abusing flash enchants and also reaping the benefits as you posted?

Unless ANet were to add a "requires Mysticism of at least 4" for nearly EVERY skill the Dervish possesses, by adding to damage to skills as you posted would further exacerbate the problem of other classes using the Dervish weapon AND skills better.

Not to mention that I've been talking about adding a bit of weapon enchant damage to the flash chants for a while now, either to replace AoHM or in addition to it. This tertiary effect could require the Mysticism of 4, but the enchant itself would not, sort of an "extra" for Dervish primaries.

Bottom line is, unless ANet adjusts the way AoHM works or the Scythe itself to coincide with the Dervish primary attribute, then any other melee build will also be able to utilize the same advantages, and in some cases STILL with superior energy management and damage output.

IMHO the simplest solution is to follow the same logic as CA and TNTF so that AoHM becomes glued to melee Dervs' bars just like CA does for melee Sins. I'm just saying that the 4+1/2 mechanic is a good one and should be applied to AoHM, with auto-renewal on multiple foes hit on an attack, WHICH follows exactly the Dervish's MO.

That change alone would make Derv's much more desirable across the board, NOT just in congenial guilds with hearts of gold lol. When it comes to melee, damage output wins, kill the other guy before he kills you, and of the Derv has no way to compete and indeed, other professions do it better, then in the game AT LARGE the Derv will be continued to be undervalued and excluded.

My suggestion was 5 damage PER Mysticism. How much Mysticism are your secondary Dervishes getting? Essentially all classes will be getting the same scythe damage boost, but only Dervs will also become walking instant nuke producers.

I challenge you to make a more realistic analogy. The nature of the scythe alone warrants limiting other professions from its potential.

Agreed on MoP and buffs, though I take it a step further and wish armor-ignoring damage was drastically reduced in the game. I've never seen an RPG take such liberty with skills in this way.

So instead of balancing some key skills, you want to give Derv's up to +80 unconditional, unremoveable damage at 16 Mysticism?

I think my idea of adding a damage range per enchant is much more beneficial and balanced:

Balthazar's Rage: Flash Enchantment Spell: All nearby foes are set on fire. For 15 seconds this enchantment does nothing. When it ends you gain adrenaline if enemies are in earshot. If Mysticism is 4 or greater, adds 3...7...11 holy damage to scythe attacks

So by stacking two to three Flash Enchants, you'd get a respectable damage addition to each scythe attack, that no other class has access to, while still keeping the skill's basic utility available to any other primary profession. The damage numbers could be tweaked obviously, and a variety of effects like this could be implemented, including Dark, Elemental damage, etc.

I think some of these arguments are premature until we get the whole picture for how this class is going to work. Also, we may not get the Derv update for another month or so. When did they announce the Mesmer update last year? When did it finally make it into the game? John said that 90% of the Dervish stuff is being changed and we saw like 8 total skills listed as what they might end up being. Stop jumping the gun on all this stuff til it's out.

There's your answer. Without knowing anything about how spammable flash enchants are there is no way to know how overpowered such a change would be. Are they disabled for 1s? OK thats overpowered. 5s? OK, thats probably about fine considering that the derv is using a superior rune for Mysticism instead of scythe mastery, sacrificing the damage they could be doing there.

@Kaleban and all the others saying tie AoHM to Mysticism so that only Dervishes can do the most damage with Scythes because only Dervishes should be able to do the most damage with scythes and they are not viable otherwise.


GAAAH!!! You buggering nitwits! The problem with Dervishes was not that they could not do the most damage with scythes! The Warrior does not do as much damage as the Assassin with the scythe, but hordes of warriors still run the scythe warrior, and I do not remember reading people say "nerf sins because warrior's aren't as good with scythes".

THE problem, or should I say PROBLEMS, with the Dervish, is (and hopefully soon will be WAS) that they have HORRIBLE energy-management + IAS options combined with the fact they have have/had to pre-load enchantments before a fight or risk getting them interrupted, and the enchantments can be stripped. And really, the latter two problems are only problems because the enchantments do not last long enough.


For example, right now, you can either run Zealous Vow with a form of PVE IAS (Drunken Master while drunk, which sucks if you are not trying to work on Drunkard for your Dervish, or expensive sweets); or you can run Onslaught with Attacker's Insight + Lyssa's Assault, however, you need BLOODY 16 Wind Prayers in order to make Onslaught laster longer than its recharge! When I run Onslaught, the only two Wind Prayers skills I use are Onslaught and Attacker's Insight, I do not need 16 Wind Prayers!

Seriously, the Dervish could have been fixed FOREVER ago if they had 1) made Drunken Master not require drinking alcohol to get the full attack speed. 2) If they had made Heart of Fury last 30 seconds with a recharge of 20 at 12 Mysticism. 3) If they had made AoHM laster 30 seconds with a recharge of 25. 4) If they had made Onslaught last its recharge time at 10 or 11 Wind Prayers.


With just the above changes to Heart of Fury and Aura of Holy Might, a Dervish could use a 20% enchanting mod and load up on enchantments before a fight, the enchantments would last the duration of the fight, so the Dervish could be dealing loads of damage without having to re-up enchantments in the middle of a fight. Oh wait, you would still have an e-management problem, especially with Asura Scane, unless you brought both Lyssa's Assault and Zealous Sweep, since you would not be having enchantments go off to fuel your energy.


The problem with the Dervish, which is the same problem for a ranger using preparations, is that the most important buffs expire in the middle of a fight. I would not mind using preparations on a Ranger if they lasted 45-60 seconds and they could be used with Barrage and Volley (in PVE), because then you could get through a fight without having to reuse them.

That previous paragraph is why the Warrior and the Assassin are favored over the Ranger and the Dervish. Because they are so easy to use. The warrior without AoHM does not even have to stop to use any skills, Warrior's Endurance and the IAS cast instantly, so they can just go go go. The only thing slowing down the warrior is AoHM and not timing Asura Scan properly. Same goes for the Assassin, except that the Assassin has to pre-use Critical Agility, yet as long it is getting criticals, which is not hard, CA stays up. THAT is what I am talkign about, either skills need to be insta-cast like stances and Flash Enchantments, or in the even that they need to be upped before battle, they need to last for the duration of one fight at least (30-45 seconds, 30 seconds for an enchantment because of the 20% enchant mod, and 40-45 for preparations and such).

Why do you think people love Drunken Master as an IAS if they are drunk? Because it is fire and forget. Same with Critical Agility.


THAT is why the Dervish currently sucks, because the only good IAS for it is Drunken Master, which requires being drunk, along with horrible e-management and having to re-load enchantments in the middle of a fight. However, I am using all of my alcohol on my warrior, which ironically does not need Drunken Master when running an all energy skills bar because of Burst of Aggression. So without Drunken Master, the only other option is Onslaught, which sucks as well.

The Dervish could probably do as much damage as a Warrior with 16 scythe master, if only it had better e-management and a proper IAS and enchantments that last longer than their durations. If they had done that, then the only people who would have been QQing about the Dervish are those who do not like that the Assassin can do more damage than a Dervish.

Oh that reminds me. For those who say that, "if the Dervish cannot do more damage than the Sin with a scythe after this update, Anet will have failed", again you buggering morrons, NO! With this update they will have hopefully fixed the pre-load problem with Flash Enchantments. As long as it also fixes IAS and e-management, then the Dervish will be fine as is, since it should be able to do at least the damage that a warrior can with the scythe. But what about the Assassin? Well, did thou not read about the effects of Avatar of Balthazar and Flash Enchantments? The Dervish seem like they are going to be monsters at inflicting conditions. So even if the Dervish cannot do as much damage as the Assassin with the scythe, if it makes up for it with inflicting conditions and other useful abilities from Flash Enchantments, along with the other fixes I mentioned, then the Dervish will be AWESOME! Even if it is not the best at wielding a scythe.


I just want AoHM to be changed to a Flash Enchantment, Asura Scan to be able to be cast while moving and using other skills, and Eternal Aura to have some cool useful ability now that Avatars will be maintainable.

By the same logic, ANY PvE-only skill should be tied to primaries, starting from SY! which is currently abused by pretty much anyone.

Why? Secondaries are good for variety, and it's probably the only decent feature left in the game.

Quite frankly, as much as I hate gimmick builds, I always found solutions like the Crit-scythe brilliant, fun and nowhere game breaking, even if I never played it myself.

Indeed, game changingly powerful. Something that can't really be said of AoHM, which is a simple, linear bonus in melee like many other in the game.

Not really. The Dervish needed a redesign, since it never had any focus whatsoever. Nerfing AoHM for secondaries doesn't give them any focus or emphasis back, expecially since emphasis never was on damage with the scythe, and still isn't.

Sins have nothing to do with it, chances are Crit-Scythe users never ever considered running a Dervish instead, and will still abuse scythes anyway thanks to Critical Strikes and rather replace AoHM with something else (AC + Asuran Scan and almost assured crits will be more than enough to still have the upper hand on AoHM Dervishes, unless AoHM is turned into some ridicolously OP crap, which is plain bad for the game).

So, how about making the Dervish good at it? That should be the focus of the changes.

What's so wrong with Wars/Sins still being good with the Scythe after the update?

AoHM doesn't need changes. The whole Dervish profession does, and we're gonna get them. Quite frankly, what you suggest is a profession relying on a PvE-only skill to be best at something (wielding a scythe), and that sounds like an awfully designed one to me. That's my point: my hopes about this update are so high that I expect Dervishes to finally master the Scythe without even taking AoHM into account. They need to be, or they'll be doomed. Who cares then if Sins and Wars will be able to abuse AoHM in gimmick builds, when the Dervish profession is THAT good by itself? Hopefully this will be the case.

How will it help the Dervish? It won't make them any more popular...

So, basically, your idea is to help the scythe-wielding Dervish sucking less, by making Wars and Sin sucking more? Why, I mean? Sounds like a childish, envious attitude to me...

Flawed logic. Last time I checked, Crit-Scythe builds consisted in mostly Scythe Attacks, which are, correct me if I'm wrong, Dervish skills...

The preview was on april 23rd and the update was may 21st

Which really isnt a huge deal, a month is hardly a long wait, Im just happy to know it will happen instead of laughing every month when it didnt come out.

All sources seem to indicate that it'll be next week.

Then why are some and others not? Perhaps its because Signet of Corruption is not anywhere near as powerful as AoHM? While some may disagree about the ultimate result, you cannot argue the fact that any scythe build worth its salt is toting AoHM, Dervish or otherwise.

There's lots of nice features, and I agree that secondary usage is a fun way to lengthen the game's viability, but not at the cost of virtually eliminating an entire primary profession from the game.

The build itself may not be game breaking, but it certainly is profession breaking.

As the game is about dealing, mitigating and healing damage, a skill that allows a huge increase especially when multiplied by other skills to one entire facet of the game is certainly game changing. If it weren't then builds like Crit-Scythe wouldn't take AoHM in favor of other skills.

So the highest damage weapon in the game with an inherent AoE bonus was never about damage? Surely you jest! And while I agree the Derv needs and is getting a re-design, you have to remember that skill balance in this game is similar to an arms race. Nerfing AoHM for secondaries gives Dervs the advantage with that skill, which is what is supposed to happen. Or are you arguing that Warriors and Dervs should have access to unlinked Critical Agility?

Thing is, the Scythe is the only weapon to have a secondary effect other than its damage, the 3 target AoE. That is what makes it most attractive in addition to its high upper damage. If the AoE is somehow limited for other classes, say two adjacent whereas Dervish gets three or four, then the other classes might abuse it less in favor of their natural weapons. Bottom line is though, a Dervish will never be as good because the Primary attribute is not conducive to melee.

See above.

Nothing, so long as the Dervish is better. Or, and this is a biggie and is tied into my Mysticism limited flash enchant bonus damage, that the Dervish has an alternate damage adder that is unique to the class.

My hope is the same, but the problem is that unless the Dervish can compete on the DPS front either through melee or a hybrid melee/enchant build, he won't be chosen over War/Sin.

Nice attack, but no. I'm saying the Dervish needs to be better with its own skills than other professions. Wars and Sins have a few gimmick scythe builds, removing them doesn't nerf the overall performance, and allows the Dervish to shine with its own weapon.

Yes this one build, scythe builds given the nature of attack spam will include these skills. My point was that all the OTHER PvE skills see no such "single use" like SY! or are not weapon specific related. A Sin utilizing CA can use any weapon, just as a Para can use any weapon to furl TNTF! So no, not flawed logic, consistent logic within the PvE skill design philosophy.

Proficiency with Scythe:

1 - Assassin
2 - Warrior
3 - Dervish

Shouldn't Dervish be number 1 with his class weapon? I think so...

Why do people not include how good Rangers are with scythes?

They're better than warriors with scythes.

If a number of the Dervish's main attacks are teardown skills, then a Sin or War is gonna have to invest into 2 lines into his secondary to use a scythe. Then, they no longer have as good energy management as the Dervish, if Mysticism is truly being changed into a sort of Expertise. Without the ability to keep up with Dervish enchantments, Sin and War should lose most of their functionality to use a scythe as effective as a Dervish.

That's a really good point.

I guess my only concern is that some attacks, notably Mystic Sweep/Eremite's Attack will remain as "skill spam" attacks. If these aren't changed, then likely the damage output of the traditional skill spam/crit scythe will still outperform the new Dervish style.

If ANet wisely does as you say however, then the days of skill spam/ZV will most likely be over.

I suppose that I'm just really excited for the changes and hope they're implemented well and not half-assed.

Assassins are also good with spears too, does that validate a spear buff? No.
When reworking a profession, we should examine its 'run-of-the-mill' skills, not its weapon mastery. It has already been established long ago that dervish's DPS should come from a mixture of weapon damage and enchantments. The reason why the latter is not happening till now is because its being poorly designed resulting players not in control of using enchantments consistently for damage.

If anything goes, scythes did require some changes: not to make dervish the best profession using it but to be 'nerfed'; to balance out the threat from the combined damage of weapon + enchantments. Its current damage range going with the proposed skill changes will certainly result in an imba OHKO. A well implemented teardown skill combo will further cement the fact that dervish is not true martial profession but as a hybrid.

Do you really believe that people abusing Crit-Scythe builds would have used a Primary Dervish instead?

All they have in common is the weapon. I don't think they've ever been alternatives, people playing Assassin primaries chose the profession for a plethora of more significant reasons, and then found out a gimmick build to have some fun with.

Take it away, and they'll get back to some other efficient Dagger build that really has nothing to envy to any scythe build, and nothing will have changed for Dervishes...

See above. Nerf the Crit-Scythe, Assassin primaries will stick with their Assassin primary and play one of the many alternatives available.

With such a wide damage range and slow attack rate, the scythe is hardly the highest damage weapon in game. Sure, max damage is the highest, yet that's not enough to qualify the Dervish as a profession focused on pure melee-damage. It's even in the notes, so it's not me, it's their design philosophy

Bingo. I'd rather have the number of targets being profession-dependent instead (inherent in Mysticism) to give primaries some uniqueness, than reducing the damage capability for secondaries to level down the competition. That would be like sweeping dust under the carpet.

That's what I hope, and what would make a great update to me: a credible update needs to make the Dervish better, and best at playing its attributes, regardless of one single, abused PvE-only skill.

I'm sick of yellow numbers, I want a Dervish to be worth playing, not a threefold yellow number machine that does nothing useful, which is pretty much all that the Crit-scythe is good at.

Then nerfing AoHM for secondaries won't likely change a thing. AoHM is not enough to make them competitive, they need much more than that, and they can't rely on a PvE-only skill to achieve it.

Maybe not...

... but this won't happen automatically, unless the fixes are really great, otherwise the Dervish will just shine with its own weapon, but still suck as a profession. So hopefully there's a chance they'll get smart fixes to shine, period (and that means even without AoHM)

That's exactly why CA and TNTF! are linked to primary attributes while AoHM isn't: they're perfectly open to any potentially broken combination, while AoHM requires a specific weapon, hence the options are way more limited in scope.

I know what class I'll be using for winds of change. Sorry 'sin, its been great knowing you.

lol way of the assassin dagger still rocks, so sin rocks!

No changes to the dervish's dance? You could get vertigo watching the dervish spin enough times.

i hate to be such a skeptic, but i will believe that when i see it, and if it happens next week, i will be like a kid at a candy store