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Originally Posted by Gli
You do realize that this thread submits the notion that they're selling in-game advantages as a fact
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Selling In-Game Advantages (The Great Debate Over Mercenary Heroes)
Golgotha
Swingline
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Originally Posted by ogre_jd
They've been doing that long before Mercenary Heroes, and to a far greater game-changing effect.
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novawhiz
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Originally Posted by Golgotha
It is a fact. This isn't debatable. The amount to which it is advantageous is up for debate however though that amount doesn't detract from the advantage's existence. People are trying to blur this distinction to skew the argument and it's completely disingenuous.
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There is no way anyone can argue that MH don't provide some sort of advantage. Whether or not you want to say it is a great or significant advantage is debatable.
But to me, i don't even care about the arbitrary judging of MH vs Hero-only builds. Its the fact that they sold something like this that greatly impacts pve gameplay which annoys me. And then them slapping us in the face with talk of adding more things like this to the ncstore.
Improvavel
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Originally Posted by novawhiz
Its the fact that they sold something like this that greatly impacts pve gameplay which annoys me.
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Swingline
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
How did it change your pve gameplay?
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Improvavel
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Originally Posted by Swingline
If you buy it you can run 7 necros or 7 rits or any combination that gives you more than the number professions that currently exist for heroes. Sounds like it directly affects gameplay to me.
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Golgotha
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
How did it change your pve gameplay?
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Gli
That's seems pretty fair to me, a purchase giving you extra options. It's almost like buying a whole new campaign!
X Dr Pepper X
The exclusion of one audience from the feature should be evidence enough that it directly impacted his gameplay.
Golgotha
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Originally Posted by Gli
That's seems pretty fair to me, a purchase giving you extra options. It's almost like buying a whole new campaign!
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Improvavel
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Originally Posted by Golgotha
Mine? None. But it did change it for those who purchased them. Would you deny that?
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But it doesn't affect your game play either.
And why is the effect of a solo player with merc heroes more important to pve game play than the fact that I always play with another person and had the ability to field 5 mesmers for ages?
Why is the effect of a solo player with mercs heroes more important to pve game play that 1 player running 2 accounts for ages?
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Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X
The exclusion of one audience from the feature should be evidence enough that it directly impacted his gameplay.
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He just declined to pay for new content/feature.
Swingline
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Originally Posted by Gli
That's seems pretty fair to me, a purchase giving you extra options. It's almost like buying a whole new campaign!
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novawhiz
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
How did it change your pve gameplay?
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I assume you want me to say, "people who payed 45 bucks get to roll 7 nec heroes".
And then you will say "but mr novawhiz, somebody who decided to pay for the MH and uses them doesnt affect your pve gameplay in anyway."
And then im gunna say "If they sold the super duper jesus sword in the ncstore and it dealt 160-170 dmg would that be ok? If you don't buy the sword, it doesn't affect your gameplay at all. So whats the problem? If you dont want to spend the money for it don't buy it. You can still beat the entire game without the jesus sword."
And then your gunna say, " the jesus sword is obviously better than a normal sword and provides a clear advantage so of course it wouldn't be ok"
Then im gunna say "and MH also provide a distinct advantage and in my opinion many MH-only team builds are superior to hero-limited team builds."
Then we will go back to square one and begin debating as to whether a sample MH team build is better than a hero only team build.
Am i right?
Gli
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Originally Posted by Golgotha
If the mercenaries were packaged within playable content to be unlocked this wouldn't be an issue. Hint: they'd be called heroes.
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Gli
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Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X
The exclusion of one audience from the feature should be evidence enough that it directly impacted his gameplay.
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Essence Snow
Let me quote a line for ya'll from an interview....(full version found here)
Idk bout ya'll but it surely sounds to me like the "fees" of other mmos will simply be replaced with microtransaction and dlc if the community supports it. I for one chose not to add to the demand for it. I cannot support a "Pay up front for the game, but if you want to continue with the rest of the community you need to purchase from the cash shop or be left behind" type model.
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| ArenaNet has already revealed that they’ll be selling Transmutation Stones, one-time consumable items used to customize your gear, in their cash shop. And although they won’t confirm if traditional cash shop items like XP boosts and fast travel consumables will also be sold, Flannum’s responses certainly makes it sound like there will be–if there’s demand for it from the playerbase. |
X Dr Pepper X
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Originally Posted by Gli
That's seems pretty fair to me, a purchase giving you extra options. It's almost like buying a whole new campaign!
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Campaigns are the most standardized format of guildwars. They are the common denominator of which we all play.
The original philosophy as well as the GW1 community accepts the fact that campaigns are standard beyond the initial release of Prophicies all the way and ending at EotN.
Mercs are in no way comparable to a campaign in terms of justifying them as an advantage. They have no sense of normative inclusion in the metagame because of how extraneous they are.
Improvavel
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Originally Posted by novawhiz
And then you will say "but mr novawhiz, somebody who decided to pay for the MH and uses them doesnt affect your pve gameplay in anyway."
And then im gunna say "If they sold the super duper jesus sword in the ncstore and it dealt 160-170 dmg would that be ok? If you don't buy the sword, it doesn't affect your gameplay at all. So whats the problem? If you dont want to spend the money for it don't buy it. You can still beat the entire game without the jesus sword." And then your gunna say, " the jesus sword is obviously better than a normal sword and provides a clear advantage so of course it wouldn't be ok" Then im gunna say "and MH also provide a distinct advantage and in my opinion many MH-only team builds are superior to hero-limited team builds." Then we will go back to square one and begin debating as to whether a sample MH team build is better than a hero only team build. Am i right? |
The Jesus sword wouldn't be a sword because swords damage is capped at 15-22.
A mercenary hero is just a hero with fancy clothings. A hero slot is a new feature/content, not a gameplay mechanic.
Ka Tet
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Originally Posted by novawhiz
Sigh...ok, if i must here i go.
I assume you want me to say, "people who payed 45 bucks get to roll 7 nec heroes". And then you will say "but mr novawhiz, somebody who decided to pay for the MH and uses them doesnt affect your pve gameplay in anyway." And then im gunna say "If they sold the super duper jesus sword in the ncstore and it dealt 160-170 dmg would that be ok? If you don't buy the sword, it doesn't affect your gameplay at all. So whats the problem? If you dont want to spend the money for it don't buy it. You can still beat the entire game without the jesus sword." And then your gunna say, " the jesus sword is obviously better than a normal sword and provides a clear advantage so of course it wouldn't be ok" Then im gunna say "and MH also provide a distinct advantage and in my opinion many MH-only team builds are superior to hero-limited team builds." Then we will go back to square one and begin debating as to whether a sample MH team build is better than a hero only team build. Am i right? |
Improvavel
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
Let me quote a line for ya'll from an interview....(full version found here)
Idk bout ya'll but it surely sounds to me like the "fees" of other mmos will simply be replaced with microtransaction and dlc if the community supports it. I for one chose not to add to the demand for it. I cannot support a "Pay up front for the game, but if you want to continue with the rest of the community you need to purchase from the cash shop or be left behind" type model. |
But from that interview:
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UPDATE: Eric Flannum sent us a note to clarify a couple of things about their plans for Guild Wars 2 post-release content: “We haven’t decided on what exactly we are or aren’t going to offer for money post-release. We’re open to whatever our players seem most interested in. If, after release, you guys would like more story content, more dungeons, more events, more maps or whatever, it’s something that we have to consider because ultimately making you happy is what makes us successful. Whether we release that in DLC (like the bonus mission packs in GW1) or whether we do it through expansions (Like Eye of the North) is yet to be determined. As to whether or not there are going to be items like XP boosts available in the in game store, I can only reiterate what we’ve said before (and will continue to say,) that we’ll release details on it when they are available, and that our core philosophy of not requiring you to spend additional money to play the game and not making the game difficult or painful to play in order to encourage you to buy things from the store still stands.” |
Golgotha
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
No.
But it doesn't affect your game play either. |
Golgotha
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Originally Posted by Gli
Why? What's the difference? I don't see one, it's just an arbitrary distinction people keep making.
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One content package is created to provide the player a large, varied gameplay addition including new areas, skills and end-game challenges. The power creep is a byproduct of said product. The other is cashing in on nothing more than a tacked-on power creep feature. Any reasonable person can see the disparity.
novawhiz
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Originally Posted by Ka Tet
Yup. Look directly above me.
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Here's my favorite comment from today's discussion:
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
A mercenary hero is just a hero with fancy clothings. |
Improvavel
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Originally Posted by Golgotha
Is the person that purchased the mercs part of the PvE community? Yes, so explain to me again how this addition doesn't affect PvE.
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If so, I apologize for being impacting your game for the last 3.5 years.
X Dr Pepper X
Yeah, this isn't single player. We're not isolated. This game is a hugely interactive world.
What one person does, affects another person.
I can't believe people will even try to make the argument that speed clears don't affect others. Which is neither here nor there. This thread is not about speed clears. Not on a boat or on a goat.
What one person does, affects another person.
I can't believe people will even try to make the argument that speed clears don't affect others. Which is neither here nor there. This thread is not about speed clears. Not on a boat or on a goat.
Improvavel
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Originally Posted by novawhiz
i must be some kind of psychic
Here's my favorite comment from today's discussion: ima sleep now, have fun without me |
a) Swords are 1 handed weapons with 15-22 capped damage so any Jesus sword would be breaking the game mechanics?
and
b) That mercenary heroes once created behave exactly like heroes of the appropriate profession?
Be my guest.
Improvavel
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Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X
I can't believe people will even try to make the argument that speed clears don't affect others. Which is neither here nor there. This thread is not about speed clears. Not on a boat or on a goat.
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Golgotha
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
Does the fact that when I play with another person I get to roll 4 mesmers heroes impact your game?
If so, I apologize for being impacting your game for the last 3.5 years. |
Do you simply flip a coin between two set responses, both of which have been addressed in the last two pages?
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=487
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=501
If someone had that Sword of Blowing Things Up, how would that affect my game or your's?
Golgotha
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
Are you able to dispute that:
a) Swords are 1 handed weapons with 15-22 capped damage so any Jesus sword would be breaking the game mechanics? and b) That mercenary heroes once created behave exactly like heroes of the appropriate profession? Be my guest. |
Improvavel
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Originally Posted by Golgotha
You're not even good at trolling.
Do you simply flip a coin between two set responses, both of which have been addressed in the last two pages? |
Improvavel
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Originally Posted by Golgotha
Heroes were once capped at 3. That changed at Anet's whim. Why would the sword cap be written in stone?
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Second, since when only 4/8 customizable skill bars per party was part of the game mechanics?
The hero cap was clearly a silly restriction that was in place to gimp people and force them to party with other by sheer frustration of not playing a proper guild wars game. Hence it was removed.
Essence Snow
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
You already bought Guild Wars 2 on the premise it is free to play? Or there won't be any game play advantages on it based on Guild Wars?
But from that interview: |
Golgotha
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
Please refresh my memory then by linking/quoting those posts that are able to explain how 4 mesmer heroes rolled by 1 player with 1 account affect pve in a different way that 1 player using 2 accounts rolling 4 mesmer heroes or 2 players on the same party rolling 4 mesmer heroes.
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2. Need to be online at the same time.
3. Requires another player to be in the current meta for efficiency.
4. Did I mention human error?
You could have 5 hero mesmers in a group before, that's hardly the issue. Difference being now you can do so at any time, with predictable results and now at your full discretion and control. And further: others cannot unless they shell out $10+. Therefor it is a *drumroll*.. paid advantage.
Swingline
this is where everyone leaves... buh bai ^^
Gli
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Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X
The original philosophy as well as the GW1 community accepts the fact that campaigns are standard beyond the initial release of Prophicies all the way and ending at EotN.
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Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X
Mercs are in no way comparable to a campaign in terms of justifying them as an advantage.
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Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X
They have no sense of normative inclusion in the metagame because of how extraneous they are.
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Improvavel
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
Just showing where this is heading.....the more support they recieve from us now with microtransaction that effect gameplay...the more likely they will continue adding them. Ergo...if we keep supporting them...next thing we know...you'll need them to stay current in the game.
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Saint Scarlet
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Originally Posted by Improvavel
You already bought Guild Wars 2 on the premise it is free to play? Or there won't be any game play advantages on it based on Guild Wars?
But from that interview: |
So from that they had already planned to have purchasable upgrades that gave people an advantage over others. And only then from the reaction of the community did they rethink their plans and add it as a drop too.
This only strengthens the argument about paid for advantages being the new business model.
Gli
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Originally Posted by Golgotha
Focus.
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Originally Posted by Golgotha
One content package is created to provide the player a large, varied gameplay addition including new areas, skills and end-game challenges. The power creep is a byproduct of said product. The other is cashing in on nothing more than a tacked-on power creep feature. Any reasonable person can see the disparity.
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So, I guess it's just a value-for-money issue then? Simple solution: don't buy it if you don't think it's worth it. There is no disparity. In both cases, it's abundantly clear what you'll get for your money.
Golgotha
You guys are really reaching. 
Improvavel
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Originally Posted by Golgotha
1. Added human error.
2. Need to be online at the same time. 3. Requires another player to be in the current meta for efficiency. 4. Did I mention human error? You could have 5 hero mesmers in a group before, that's hardly the issue. Difference being now you can do so at any time, with predictable results and now at your full discretion and control. And further: others cannot unless they shell out $10+. Therefor it is a *drumroll*.. paid advantage. |
1. I find my human companion quite capable and better then any hero.
2. I have no problem with that - in an age of communication like the one we live it isn't that hard.
3. People can dialog.
4. Not every human was made equal. And did I mention much more entertaining?
It is a paid advantage - a convenience one. But it doesn't break any game mechanics rules.
Like having extra character slots, extra campaigns, etc.
That alone doesn't prove that Anet is committing a crime by selling merc heroes.
A convenience advantage doesn't directly translate in a gameplay mechanics advantage.
A Jesus Sword that dealt over 9000 damage per swing and didn't drop in game on the other hand would be breaking the gameplay mechanics rules.
Of course I'm not going to convince you or others since you guys are primarily objecting microtransactions, especially one that is interesting from your point of view, but in essence is exactly like all other microtransactions, be it costumes, unlock packs, storage panes, etc, with the difference you think this one is more useful to have.