In view of posts like this one, this one and this one, I think it's time people on both sides of the issue backed their opinions up with deeds.
I believe Discord is generally subpar, but if someone can prove S/D/M to be the fastest I'm open to changing my mind. I'd need evidence to do that, however. So I'm challenging all the Spiritway + Discordway + Mesway users to a time trial. Terms as follows:
1. You use 2 Rits, 3 Necros at least two with Discord, and 2 Mesmers. Beyond that, exact builds are up to you. You can use a ST Rit if you want, or SoGM; you can use Panic or Ineptitude or Extend Conditions or Lyssa's Aura or whatever as long as you have two Mesmers. I'll use whatever I want, and although right now I don't have finalized builds for general use, I'm very unlikely to use more than 2 Necros, or more than one Discord (if I even use one Discord). Chances are also good I'll use an Elementalist hero with an elite other than Ether Renewal, just to see the reactions of some players I won't name.
2. You choose the area. It must be in HM and 8-man (here Unwaking Waters and similar missions count as 16-man), but beyond that you can choose whatever. I'd prefer something other than a vanquish, since chasing down stray mobs is incredibly annoying, and I'd prefer something to which you can go into at once, so no Duncan HM or Mallyx HM or similar. Try to pick an area that favours S/D/M. If you have no preference I suggest Bogroot Growths, which has oodles of bodies and quite a few physicals to go around.
3. No consumables of any kind.
4. No Shadow Form, Vow of Silence or Obsidian Flesh. Especially Shadow Form. I'm not interested in builds where you run past the entire first level of a dungeon, for example.
5. If you believe I spec too much against a particular area, I'm happy to repeat the test using the same builds for a second area of your choice (that is, we test the builds against two areas, not just one).
I'll be using an Elementalist primary. If times from a previous time trial thread are anything to go by, melee primaries should be marginally faster (primary class advantage), so if you can use a caster - but if not, whatever. Take the /age at the end of the mission, vanquish, dungeon, ZBounty, etc. You don't have to have all the bars viewable if you want to keep your bars secret, but you should have the party window open for verification.
Anyone care to try?
Challenging S/D/M users to a time trial
Jeydra
Spiritz
Quick glance id have said make the challenge with set builds - that way everyone has exact same build and is fair.
Reformed
Life Bringing
The point isn't for everyone to use the same build. The point is that the common belief of most people on these forums is that 3 discords in a 7 hero party is the best option. Jeydra will not be using discord and is attempting to prove that discord is subpar.
While I'm no fan of discordway, I'll probably throw together a team and see what I can do for teh lulz.
While I'm no fan of discordway, I'll probably throw together a team and see what I can do for teh lulz.
Maya Cerestiez
What about runes, weps and insignias on heroes? I'd suggest that every hero doing this should be fully runed with at least major vigor and best possible weapons + all needed (optimal) attribute runes + 5 insigs. Having proper equipped heroes is more important than the difference of 1-2 builds on the team.
xxfah
chuckles79
May I recommend Fissure of Woe. In some areas Discord shines, and some areas the lack of corpses makes things interesting.
It's hard enough that the player has to plan and have some caution, but easy enough that just about anyone can enter with a reasonable expectation of success.
It's hard enough that the player has to plan and have some caution, but easy enough that just about anyone can enter with a reasonable expectation of success.
IronSheik
I will do this on my ele, I rarely use discord myself but I will for the sake of comparison
Plutoman
I like this.. but I side with you Jeydra, and I also play an Ele primary. May put something together and try, but I'll see.
Bristlebane
I would suggest a simple vanquish.. because then you can't just speed past certain areas. FoW for example, you could just speed past a lot of critters and complete quests faster. For a VQ, you really have to kill everything.
To make it fair, pick an area that's straightforward, no maze or tricky terrain.. challenge is not who knows the map better but who kills the foes there faster.
To make it fair, pick an area that's straightforward, no maze or tricky terrain.. challenge is not who knows the map better but who kills the foes there faster.
Wenspire
Something challenging like dredging the depths (aka voxlen excavations) would be good. Picking something easy doesn't really challenge the effectiveness of a build imo.
Outerworld
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenspire
Something challenging like dredging the depths (aka voxlen excavations) would be good. Picking something easy doesn't really challenge the effectiveness of a build imo.
The only challenging parts of vlox are the slavers mobs so wouldn't it make more sense to set a slavers level over vlox?
Chthon
Haha! I love it. I won't be participating because I don't like to take losing bets, but I will be on hand to offer barbed comments about Discord.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckles79
Quote:
May I recommend Fissure of Woe. In some areas Discord shines, and some areas the lack of corpses makes things interesting.
It's hard enough that the player has to plan and have some caution, but easy enough that just about anyone can enter with a reasonable expectation of success. This may be a good choice. Though you'd have to normalize the quest order, pathing, rules on bypassing mobs, and whether you are permitted to pre-clear for griffons or burning forest. You can spend more than an hour just backtracking in FoW if you don't know where you're going.
The same problem might apply to a lot of VQs. If the point is to compare how quickly you can demolish mobs, spending any significant amount of time doing non-fighting activities (like looking for the last mob) could negate the results if that non-fighting activity could vary a lot from run to run or person to person.
With that in mind, I might suggest Raisu Palace HM (both players must take, say, Danika+Cynn or Talon+Argo or whatever). The mission path is very linear (and symmetric where it's non-linear), the mobs have a low amount of randomness, and there's pretty much no non-combat activities to dilute the relationship between time and build effectiveness.
Gate of Madness and Destruction's Depths might also be good choices for most of the same reasons.
It's hard enough that the player has to plan and have some caution, but easy enough that just about anyone can enter with a reasonable expectation of success. This may be a good choice. Though you'd have to normalize the quest order, pathing, rules on bypassing mobs, and whether you are permitted to pre-clear for griffons or burning forest. You can spend more than an hour just backtracking in FoW if you don't know where you're going.
The same problem might apply to a lot of VQs. If the point is to compare how quickly you can demolish mobs, spending any significant amount of time doing non-fighting activities (like looking for the last mob) could negate the results if that non-fighting activity could vary a lot from run to run or person to person.
With that in mind, I might suggest Raisu Palace HM (both players must take, say, Danika+Cynn or Talon+Argo or whatever). The mission path is very linear (and symmetric where it's non-linear), the mobs have a low amount of randomness, and there's pretty much no non-combat activities to dilute the relationship between time and build effectiveness.
Gate of Madness and Destruction's Depths might also be good choices for most of the same reasons.
Kaida the Heartless
S/D/M = ?... Super Deranged Monkey? Sup, Dude Man? Stinky Diaper Mess?
Kirasaw
Fow a good choise? lol
1h and 18mins using S/D/M. no cons or pcons used. HM of course
1h and 18mins using S/D/M. no cons or pcons used. HM of course
Wenspire
FengShuiDove
Dzjudz
Vloxen HM is a fun one. Slavers' Exile style mobs but with easy access from an outpost. Not very hard though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
Quote:
You don't have to have all the bars viewable if you want to keep your bars secret, but you should have the party window open for verification.
And then set a good time without Discord but say you used Discord? 
Kirasaw
DP remover (3\4 honeycombs) used during bforest
Bristlebane
FoW is a lousy area for a contest anyway.
You need pure mission area that can't be run and completed in less than 20 minutes. And to not cheat with a death to clear cons, you have to do a /deaths on your screenshot also, showing you gained at least a viable amount of exp since your last deaths. Alternative is a screen of /deaths at start and end of mission, and you have to do it without getting yourself killed.
Thanakai Temple?
You need pure mission area that can't be run and completed in less than 20 minutes. And to not cheat with a death to clear cons, you have to do a /deaths on your screenshot also, showing you gained at least a viable amount of exp since your last deaths. Alternative is a screen of /deaths at start and end of mission, and you have to do it without getting yourself killed.
Thanakai Temple?
Chthon
hollywoodAnimal
I like the idea of doing TotPK HM, although regulating the timing out be troublesome (would be best if we could FRAPS it). TotPK does not necessarily take a long time to, is reasonably challenging, and time will not be wasted running around looking for missions. Alternatively, other similarly straightforward and challenging missions would be best for timing.
One idea that comes to mind is Jennur's Horde HM. Straightforward and with a decently wide variety of mob types. Just my thoughts.
One idea that comes to mind is Jennur's Horde HM. Straightforward and with a decently wide variety of mob types. Just my thoughts.
aga
I think GoM would be the best choice, it's got everything. Of course with the bonus, it's not too easy, nor too short, has some high HP bosses and lots of normal mobs of different types.
HigherMinion
Completed Deep 1:30 (1:06 to Kanaxai's chamber) using no discords, 8/12,etc.
I would like to see you take this challenge, Jeydra. Can you beat 1:30 Deep 7H?
DISCLAIMER: NO MERCS WERE HARMED DURING THE MAKING OF THIS SCREENSHOT. kthx.
Kaida the Heartless
Silly me. S/D/M... it was so obvious. -.-
@HigherMinion: Uh... maybe I misinterpreted your post, but Jeydra is AGAINST S/D/M, just like it seems you are. lol. Also, chuckled at your DP, but I guess you got the job done, so it doesn't matter. :P
@All: I think ToPK is a good place. No quests to run between, and all foes must be killed, so we know none are being skipped. It lacks any bosses though (not that I think this is going to matter).
@HigherMinion: Uh... maybe I misinterpreted your post, but Jeydra is AGAINST S/D/M, just like it seems you are. lol. Also, chuckled at your DP, but I guess you got the job done, so it doesn't matter. :P
@All: I think ToPK is a good place. No quests to run between, and all foes must be killed, so we know none are being skipped. It lacks any bosses though (not that I think this is going to matter).
HigherMinion
Chthon
ToPK is perhaps the 1 zone that is maybe too unfairly tilted towards S/M/D. Finger completely gimps a lot of other options, but largely does not effect S/M/D.
UnChosen
I don't think this type of contest would mean anything at all.
1) Its so easy to cheat it...just pop some cons for the first half of a vanquish and let it expire before taking a screenshot. Heck, just go afk for a bit to make it "authentic".
2) People who loves to micro all the time could always find something that beat a meta build. Part of what made Dway, Sway, and the like popular is that they're very effective for a huge range of skill level. No "careful pulling", no "balling", no "microing".
3) Doesn't take "accidents" into account. Meta builds all have built in resiliency that makes them "foolproof". I could make builds that destroy DMS in pure speed but would fall apart the moment I don't do things right.
4) Every area has its "weakness" that can be fine tuned against. If you beat DMS with a build in one area you have to prove it beats it in most other areas as well. If I choose Vizunah Square as the area, I bet 90% of people would pull some sort of "lichway" to abuse the ridiculous amount of corpses.
5) Player builds play a factor, if I bring "SY!", I could roll with almost anything better than DMS, which usually relys on AP+YMLAD+EVAS+FH. People could also easily pull "speed clear" shenanigans...even without Shadow Form there are other builds that would let people tank 10 mobs to nuke.
1) Its so easy to cheat it...just pop some cons for the first half of a vanquish and let it expire before taking a screenshot. Heck, just go afk for a bit to make it "authentic".
2) People who loves to micro all the time could always find something that beat a meta build. Part of what made Dway, Sway, and the like popular is that they're very effective for a huge range of skill level. No "careful pulling", no "balling", no "microing".
3) Doesn't take "accidents" into account. Meta builds all have built in resiliency that makes them "foolproof". I could make builds that destroy DMS in pure speed but would fall apart the moment I don't do things right.
4) Every area has its "weakness" that can be fine tuned against. If you beat DMS with a build in one area you have to prove it beats it in most other areas as well. If I choose Vizunah Square as the area, I bet 90% of people would pull some sort of "lichway" to abuse the ridiculous amount of corpses.
5) Player builds play a factor, if I bring "SY!", I could roll with almost anything better than DMS, which usually relys on AP+YMLAD+EVAS+FH. People could also easily pull "speed clear" shenanigans...even without Shadow Form there are other builds that would let people tank 10 mobs to nuke.
Jeydra
Minion is there any reason in particular why you want me to try to beat that time? 90 minutes is not short, and if I have 90 uninterrupted minutes to spend on Guild Wars I'm more likely to try to clear FoW or DoA or something. If there's no reason I don't really want to try.
I don't mind ToPK as the battleground. If anyone wants to try, I'd say bring it on.
@Gabs88, if player build is a problem, I don't mind making it more flexible: run 3 Necros, 2 Rits, 2 Mesmers and one wildcard. With that I'd probably specify no mercenaries, so ...
@Unchosen - I think to stop cheating (lol 10% morale boost in FoW) easy way would be to require screenshots every 30 minutes or similar. You don't have to post them, but you should have them.
I believe S/D/M can be improved on with a general build, and do not mind testing it in multiple areas. There's nothing wrong with micro, and I don't see how anyone can fault a player for micro'ing. As for falling apart, I think I can make general builds that beat S/D/M without falling apart unless I make a serious mistake (like aggro'ing Burning Spirits without flagging heroes). Shadow Form is explicitly banned, so it shouldn't matter.
So anyone want to try?
@EFGJack - yeah, but last time I tried saying that, I got things like "the last time I checked, everyone takes an imbagon in DOA which hugely reduces the damage taken partywide" and "but most of PvE is VQ / ZB / missions, not elite areas" and even "SDM is a vanquish build, I can easily change builds to do DoA or UW or Slaver's, but builds that specifically work in those few areas tend not to be usable in the rest of the game". Even though DoA HM is clearly the hardest thing around that can be 7H'ed right now, I think you'd have to wade through a ton of reasons not to use DoA HM as a testbed before you actually get anything done ...
I don't mind ToPK as the battleground. If anyone wants to try, I'd say bring it on.
@Gabs88, if player build is a problem, I don't mind making it more flexible: run 3 Necros, 2 Rits, 2 Mesmers and one wildcard. With that I'd probably specify no mercenaries, so ...
@Unchosen - I think to stop cheating (lol 10% morale boost in FoW) easy way would be to require screenshots every 30 minutes or similar. You don't have to post them, but you should have them.
I believe S/D/M can be improved on with a general build, and do not mind testing it in multiple areas. There's nothing wrong with micro, and I don't see how anyone can fault a player for micro'ing. As for falling apart, I think I can make general builds that beat S/D/M without falling apart unless I make a serious mistake (like aggro'ing Burning Spirits without flagging heroes). Shadow Form is explicitly banned, so it shouldn't matter.
So anyone want to try?
@EFGJack - yeah, but last time I tried saying that, I got things like "the last time I checked, everyone takes an imbagon in DOA which hugely reduces the damage taken partywide" and "but most of PvE is VQ / ZB / missions, not elite areas" and even "SDM is a vanquish build, I can easily change builds to do DoA or UW or Slaver's, but builds that specifically work in those few areas tend not to be usable in the rest of the game". Even though DoA HM is clearly the hardest thing around that can be 7H'ed right now, I think you'd have to wade through a ton of reasons not to use DoA HM as a testbed before you actually get anything done ...
Bright Star Shine
ToPK is a horrible playground: hi there!. Dervishes, Ritualists, Assassins, Mesmers and Paragons have an upperhand over the other professions.
Elfblade
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnChosen
Quote: Originally Posted by UnChosen
2) People who loves to micro all the time could always find something that beat a meta build. Part of what made Dway, Sway, and the like popular is that they're very effective for a huge range of skill level. No "careful pulling", no "balling", no "microing".
that s/d/m requires no to little micro is part of what makes it popular. S/d/m build efficiency will also increase if you micro the skills. S/d/m relies on fast single kills while some other builds rely on aoe killing pitting these against each other is partly the purpose of the contest.Quote: Originally Posted by UnChosen
3) Doesn't take "accidents" into account. Meta builds all have built in resiliency that makes them "foolproof". I could make builds that destroy DMS in pure speed but would fall apart the moment I don't do things right.
See efgjacks build, some builds are build like that and live on the edge again part of the contestQuote:
