Challenging S/D/M users to a time trial
Jeydra
Quote:
Originally Posted by spray04
@Gabs88 - not really. It's entirely possible for a Perma to run past the first level of Bogroot Growths. I vaguely remember a screenshot where someone micro'ed Zenmai, ran past every mob in Duncan HM and killed Duncan. Shadow Form needs to be banned, simple enough.
Also I've no fear of taking on Fingers of Chaos. Bring it on, I say.
mage767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outerworld
Thom/Rand 22 mins, non-discord. Invent shown at beggining and the end shows no cons were used. Would be nice too see if someone could do faster. Interesting to see that someone else is putting FD to good use - indeed, amazing team builds are possible surrounding it. Discord heroes works with FD just fine, but there are ways to tweak it to pump out even more juicy conditional damage.
Nice time on those 2 bosses though
However, slavers is not a great place to test builds. I still believe TopK is ideal for hero-build testing. Just take screenshot every 5-10 minutes to ptove no cons have been used.
Essence Snow
I don't think Vloxen would be a good choice as most of level 2 (which takes the most time) can be skipped easily.
aga
Well I used s/d/m for the forst time last night. And my opinion is that it is good if your pulling is very messing and cannot ball up to a decent standard, but if you can ball then you should not be running it, since there are much better options availible.
Wenspire
Quote:
Originally Posted by Essence Snow
I don't think Vloxen would be a good choice as most of level 2 (which takes the most time) can be skipped easily.
Just have to make sure it hasnt been skipped. After all, it's really all about testing the efficiency of builds and not about exploits. I take it you can tell who has skipped with a screenshot at the 2nd level door?
Wenspire
I assume they won't have the dungeon's key logo showing on the screen a well.
aga
Dungeons should not be considered for the challenge, since almost all have some form of a glitch of way to skip 90% of a lvl. Look at Frostmaws, glitch through lvl1, glitch a bit on lvl2, glitch through lvl4 and on lvl 5 pull the boss to a snowball, hard stuff bro.
Voodoo Rage
This thread illustrates my beef with the whole "meta" mentality. People can ultimately have different playing styles. Yes, certain builds and teams are clearly better than others but when we start getting super pedantic about times and stressing about hyper-efficiency, I think we do lose a bit of why we play this game in the first place.
Secondly, the player's primary profession and playing style obviously has a lot to do with what "is the best team". If I like to play a bit more of an aggressive front liner, I'm clearly going to need a drastically different team supporting me than someone who might play a more conservative "lay my spirits and pull" style.
I think the community should really shy away from declaring a "meta" team build. With the seven hero setup, the best thing player can do is get comfortable tailoring the builds to accommodate the foes and area they will be playing in instead of just anointing the next crappy "discordway" that everyone will feel is what they should be running because that what it says on PvX.
Secondly, the player's primary profession and playing style obviously has a lot to do with what "is the best team". If I like to play a bit more of an aggressive front liner, I'm clearly going to need a drastically different team supporting me than someone who might play a more conservative "lay my spirits and pull" style.
I think the community should really shy away from declaring a "meta" team build. With the seven hero setup, the best thing player can do is get comfortable tailoring the builds to accommodate the foes and area they will be playing in instead of just anointing the next crappy "discordway" that everyone will feel is what they should be running because that what it says on PvX.
Wenspire
I would love to see more people using group builds that do not rely on having an MM aboard.
Rites
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenspire
I would love to see more people using group builds that do not rely on having an MM aboard.
i would love to see a team setup without spirits and MM
Daesu
mage767
Wenspire
I would like to see some people doing HM material without an MM. I know a few of you say it's possible (which it is, I know) but I feel that a great majority of people just rely on an MM as a crutch to skilled gameplay.
Just my $0.02...
Just my $0.02...
squiros
S+D+M doesn't require mercenaries. i think this should be a requirement for whatever build people come up with. it should be account and player independent, one of the main attractions of SDM imo.
as stated, empty player bar. the problem is also armor and other specs - a warrior who isn't likely to be targeted can make SDM run independently. whereas a non functioning monk would be targeted and could take significant resources away. or are you arguing WITH player interaction, so the AP bar + SDM vs your 8 bars?
this brings up adaptiveness. many of the spirits can be modified to suit areas, discord can alternate between different curses based on caster vs melee to a degree, should new builds be comparable in evolving specific functions? does your 7 hero build only work with elementalists?
as such, the real solution i think would be disclosing the set of 7 hero builds. there's too much cheating to be had otherwise. this way we can test the same area running our characters through exactly the same way with 7 different heroes.
as stated, empty player bar. the problem is also armor and other specs - a warrior who isn't likely to be targeted can make SDM run independently. whereas a non functioning monk would be targeted and could take significant resources away. or are you arguing WITH player interaction, so the AP bar + SDM vs your 8 bars?
this brings up adaptiveness. many of the spirits can be modified to suit areas, discord can alternate between different curses based on caster vs melee to a degree, should new builds be comparable in evolving specific functions? does your 7 hero build only work with elementalists?
as such, the real solution i think would be disclosing the set of 7 hero builds. there's too much cheating to be had otherwise. this way we can test the same area running our characters through exactly the same way with 7 different heroes.
Jeydra
In that case, post a rough idea of what you're going to run, and I'll see if it's worthwhile for me to try to outrun it.
Jeydra
4 Mesmers and 3 Necros with Discord is fine with me.
I didn't mean to suggest Thunderhead Keep. I actually hate that mission because of the amount of time you spend waiting. That is, unless you think it's only fair that I pick an area of my own. I wouldn't suggest you do that, however, because you can be sure I'll pick an area that heavily biases against 4 Mesmers + 3 Necros.
Tell me what primary profession you'll be using, in addition to the rough builds you and your heroes will run.
I didn't mean to suggest Thunderhead Keep. I actually hate that mission because of the amount of time you spend waiting. That is, unless you think it's only fair that I pick an area of my own. I wouldn't suggest you do that, however, because you can be sure I'll pick an area that heavily biases against 4 Mesmers + 3 Necros.
Tell me what primary profession you'll be using, in addition to the rough builds you and your heroes will run.
Life Bringing
I kinda like Raisu Palace. Post a screen and ill see if i can beat it 
Jeydra
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine
Yawn, I know this is directed to me, and if not, probably partially, but tbh, I thought you were gonna make the first move. Tbh, I don't see why I should participate in this, because in my entire guru history I have never backed up S/D/M in any way, claiming it is good, better, or whatever. Only thing I said was that eles suck at dealing damage. Also, you sir need to get down from your high horse. You are not the H/H god, so stop pretending you are. I will take your silly challenge though, but I refuse to use S/D/M, I will just prove that I can outdo your ele heroes. So, first move is up to you, also I have a new challenge for you, if you're man enough to take it. But I won't post it in here, because, I did, earlier, and a moderator asked me nicely not to, so I won't. I will make a new thread for it.
Last chance. Do you really intend for me to choose the area? Because if you do, I can promise you you will regret it.
Do you agree not to use any offensive hero Elementalists, instead using an offensive hero Monk for every offensive hero Elementalist I use?
Do you agree to use your Elementalist?
Do you agree not to use consumables of any kind?
@Gabs88 - I think Raisu is better than THK. At least I'm certain to enjoy it more, because it's more intense. It also has times at the end precise to seconds, and we can agree on which NPCs to bring. Only possible problem are the Celestial skills. If you want THK and Raisu ... why not, I guess, although it might take longer than a week for me to finish.
I'll begin serious testing for these areas when I have the time.
Do you agree not to use any offensive hero Elementalists, instead using an offensive hero Monk for every offensive hero Elementalist I use?
Do you agree to use your Elementalist?
Do you agree not to use consumables of any kind?
@Gabs88 - I think Raisu is better than THK. At least I'm certain to enjoy it more, because it's more intense. It also has times at the end precise to seconds, and we can agree on which NPCs to bring. Only possible problem are the Celestial skills. If you want THK and Raisu ... why not, I guess, although it might take longer than a week for me to finish.
I'll begin serious testing for these areas when I have the time.
Bright Star Shine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
Last chance. Do you really intend for me to choose the area? Because if you do, I can promise you you will regret it.
Do you agree not to use any offensive hero Elementalists, instead using an offensive hero Monk for every offensive hero Elementalist I use?
Do you agree to use your Elementalist?
Do you agree not to use consumables of any kind?
@Gabs88 - I think Raisu is better than THK. At least I'm certain to enjoy it more, because it's more intense. It also has times at the end precise to seconds, and we can agree on which NPCs to bring. Only possible problem are the Celestial skills. If you want THK and Raisu ... why not, I guess, although it might take longer than a week for me to finish.
I'll begin serious testing for these areas when I have the time. Why would I use my elementalist, if my point is, to prove that my elementalist sucks? I'll use whatever profession I deem worthy of the area you choose. On all the rest, I do agree.
Do you agree not to use any offensive hero Elementalists, instead using an offensive hero Monk for every offensive hero Elementalist I use?
Do you agree to use your Elementalist?
Do you agree not to use consumables of any kind?
@Gabs88 - I think Raisu is better than THK. At least I'm certain to enjoy it more, because it's more intense. It also has times at the end precise to seconds, and we can agree on which NPCs to bring. Only possible problem are the Celestial skills. If you want THK and Raisu ... why not, I guess, although it might take longer than a week for me to finish.
I'll begin serious testing for these areas when I have the time. Why would I use my elementalist, if my point is, to prove that my elementalist sucks? I'll use whatever profession I deem worthy of the area you choose. On all the rest, I do agree.
Life Bringing
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/5554/gw342.jpg
I used the celestial skill, so go ahead and use yours. I wish you luck
I used the celestial skill, so go ahead and use yours. I wish you luck
Jeydra
You want me to do THK, Raisu and ToPK all at the same time, at once? I don't have that much time to spare in a day, I'm afraid. At best, maybe two days.
I wanted to take a week so I could spend more time refining my builds, but if you insist on doing it right now that's fine with me as well. I'll go get some (but probably not all) of the screenshots tonight.
Quote:
I wanted to take a week so I could spend more time refining my builds, but if you insist on doing it right now that's fine with me as well. I'll go get some (but probably not all) of the screenshots tonight.
Quote:
If you are not willing to use your Elementalist, I'll have to conclude that you intend to beat my times not by being a better Guild Wars player, but by exploiting a primary class advantage. Actually I think I can still force a win if we ban Shadow Form / Vow of Silence and Obsidian Flesh, but what the heck - you have an Elementalist, use it so we can be on level playing grounds.
If you agree to use your Elementalist, I'll want a stake of 50 ectos, and Xenomortis can be the referee.
Oh and I suggest we ban Shadow Form, Vow of Silence and Obsidian Flesh because we're discussing damage. If you can run straight to the finish with Shadow Form, it would scarcely matter how much damage your heroes do.
EDIT: @Gabs, if you want to go to Kamadan and grab an area, fine with me bar one thing - I want to be able to switch out the MM if the area named doesn't have many bodies. Also unlike you, I can't afford to stay up till 3am, so if you want to select areas this way we'll have to do it on a weekend.
Kinda unfair I think that you make that change after Life Bringing posts a time. Why not just use the areas you mentioned?
Plutoman
Fair challenge;
Third-party names two different areas, areas that require no running around chasing patrols/blind luck involved. Both would be done in HM.
Players run with no bars. Heroes only. No mercenaries allowed for the challenge. Testing should be minimal, times posted within a couple days of the areas named.
Simple rules, fairness. If you have no interest in playing without mercenaries then you aren't willing to accept a fair challenge, because you have an advantage over the other players that they can't compensate for. Who's to say that it's not the mercenaries, not discord, that improves the time? Don't argue for Discord when you're not going to back it. Testing should be minimal because this is arguing for a general build, not specific builds for every area. Tweaks of course are fine, but construction of builds for areas is not what people want to do.
(For me, I keep several various builds of each type of hero, and add-in or subtract depending on the general layout of an area - never faulted me once. I have about 40 builds constructed for different types of areas, with ~15 of them solely intended in elite area play, and another ~5-10 for farming builds. ~15-20 builds can cover the entirety of the game besides DoA and UW.)
These are my suggestions, I'm not gonna be hardcore enough to participate.
Third-party names two different areas, areas that require no running around chasing patrols/blind luck involved. Both would be done in HM.
Players run with no bars. Heroes only. No mercenaries allowed for the challenge. Testing should be minimal, times posted within a couple days of the areas named.
Simple rules, fairness. If you have no interest in playing without mercenaries then you aren't willing to accept a fair challenge, because you have an advantage over the other players that they can't compensate for. Who's to say that it's not the mercenaries, not discord, that improves the time? Don't argue for Discord when you're not going to back it. Testing should be minimal because this is arguing for a general build, not specific builds for every area. Tweaks of course are fine, but construction of builds for areas is not what people want to do.
(For me, I keep several various builds of each type of hero, and add-in or subtract depending on the general layout of an area - never faulted me once. I have about 40 builds constructed for different types of areas, with ~15 of them solely intended in elite area play, and another ~5-10 for farming builds. ~15-20 builds can cover the entirety of the game besides DoA and UW.)
These are my suggestions, I'm not gonna be hardcore enough to participate.
Frozen Ele
Make it all four areas of ToPK; you've got to beat them anyways, so just /age
Chthon
OK, this is getting silly. Since no one wants to set the terms of the contest, I will.
Contestants are Jeydra, Gabs88, Bright Star Shine, and anyone else who wants to participate (except the judges).
Screenshot judges are Xenomortis and myself. And, if we manage to disagree on something, Higher Minion as tie breaker.
Judges may not compete.
Rules:
1. Do HM Raisu Palace and post screenies in this thread by midnight US Eastern time on Wed evening.
2. Do HM Gate of Madness and post screenies in this thread by midnight US Eastern on Fri evening.
3. Do HM Hells' Precipice and post screenies in this thread by midnight US Eastern Sunday evening.
4. Anyone who fails to post a screenshot by the deadline is disqualified. (And none of this "I'm really busy right now" crap. Raisu can be finished faster than writing a post here.)
4-a. Screenshots may be submitted to me in advance (Xeno doesn't know he's a judge yet
), but still need to be posted here in time to count.
5. Gabs88 and must use some variant on S/D/M (or retract his claim that it is superior).
5-a. BSS must use something with offensive monks, but without offensive eles (or retract his claim in the monk/ele debate).
6-a. Jeydra must use something that is not S/D/M (or retract his claim that it's inferior).
6-b.Jeydra must also run something using offensive eles, but no offensive monks (or retract his claim in the monk/ele debate).
6-c. Jeydra may run one build that satisfies both criteria, OR may run twice using one build to satisfy 6-a and another build to satisfy 6-b. If he chooses to run twice, he needs to clearly label his posts/screenshots. (If Jeydra decides to run two different builds, I'm going to treat him as if he were two different people and he has to follow all the rules for both "people.")
7. Anyone else can run whatever they like.
8. You may not use mercenary heroes to exceed the natural hero limits (3x War, 3x necro, 2x mesmer, etc.)
9. You must use the exact same bars for all 3 zones. To prove this, have all bars open for final screenshot.
10. No cons of any sort (including alcohol* and DP removers). To prove this, include a screenie of start and finish w/ inventory open showing no cons. If your time is over 20minutes, provide an extra screenshot w/ inventory open between 15:00 and 19:59, between 35:00 and 39:59, etc.
11. No Shadow Form, Obsidian Flesh, Vow of Silence, or Spellbreaker.
12. Raisu Palace helpers are Danika and Cynn, show a screenshot w/ them in party list.
13. No celestial skills for Raisu Palace.
14. Do bonus for Gate of Madness. Prove it by having open U-map showing all shrines blue and all shrine-buffs active in final screenshot.
15. Do bonus for Hell's Precipice. Prove it by having screenshot of final Armageddon Lord crumbling death animation.
16. No lightbringer title for GoM. Unfortuately, I don't have a way to enforce this short of FRAPS. On your honor here guys.
* Alcohol is allowed to be in your inventory, or even used, IF you have no skills on your bar that benefit from it.
[edit: added "in this thread" to eliminate any confusion over where to post]
[edit: narrowed time window for intermediate no-cons screenshots]
[edit: added "evening" to make clear that it is the midnight at the end of the specified day, not the beginning]
[edit: added #13, renumbered 14 and 15]
[edit: updated rules to respond to questions.]
[edit: changed rules 5 & 6 because BSS does not want anything to do with S/D/M]
Contestants are Jeydra, Gabs88, Bright Star Shine, and anyone else who wants to participate (except the judges).
Screenshot judges are Xenomortis and myself. And, if we manage to disagree on something, Higher Minion as tie breaker.
Judges may not compete.
Rules:
1. Do HM Raisu Palace and post screenies in this thread by midnight US Eastern time on Wed evening.
2. Do HM Gate of Madness and post screenies in this thread by midnight US Eastern on Fri evening.
3. Do HM Hells' Precipice and post screenies in this thread by midnight US Eastern Sunday evening.
4. Anyone who fails to post a screenshot by the deadline is disqualified. (And none of this "I'm really busy right now" crap. Raisu can be finished faster than writing a post here.)
4-a. Screenshots may be submitted to me in advance (Xeno doesn't know he's a judge yet
), but still need to be posted here in time to count.5. Gabs88 and must use some variant on S/D/M (or retract his claim that it is superior).
5-a. BSS must use something with offensive monks, but without offensive eles (or retract his claim in the monk/ele debate).
6-a. Jeydra must use something that is not S/D/M (or retract his claim that it's inferior).
6-b.Jeydra must also run something using offensive eles, but no offensive monks (or retract his claim in the monk/ele debate).
6-c. Jeydra may run one build that satisfies both criteria, OR may run twice using one build to satisfy 6-a and another build to satisfy 6-b. If he chooses to run twice, he needs to clearly label his posts/screenshots. (If Jeydra decides to run two different builds, I'm going to treat him as if he were two different people and he has to follow all the rules for both "people.")
7. Anyone else can run whatever they like.
8. You may not use mercenary heroes to exceed the natural hero limits (3x War, 3x necro, 2x mesmer, etc.)
9. You must use the exact same bars for all 3 zones. To prove this, have all bars open for final screenshot.
10. No cons of any sort (including alcohol* and DP removers). To prove this, include a screenie of start and finish w/ inventory open showing no cons. If your time is over 20minutes, provide an extra screenshot w/ inventory open between 15:00 and 19:59, between 35:00 and 39:59, etc.
11. No Shadow Form, Obsidian Flesh, Vow of Silence, or Spellbreaker.
12. Raisu Palace helpers are Danika and Cynn, show a screenshot w/ them in party list.
13. No celestial skills for Raisu Palace.
14. Do bonus for Gate of Madness. Prove it by having open U-map showing all shrines blue and all shrine-buffs active in final screenshot.
15. Do bonus for Hell's Precipice. Prove it by having screenshot of final Armageddon Lord crumbling death animation.
16. No lightbringer title for GoM. Unfortuately, I don't have a way to enforce this short of FRAPS. On your honor here guys.
* Alcohol is allowed to be in your inventory, or even used, IF you have no skills on your bar that benefit from it.
[edit: added "in this thread" to eliminate any confusion over where to post]
[edit: narrowed time window for intermediate no-cons screenshots]
[edit: added "evening" to make clear that it is the midnight at the end of the specified day, not the beginning]
[edit: added #13, renumbered 14 and 15]
[edit: updated rules to respond to questions.]
[edit: changed rules 5 & 6 because BSS does not want anything to do with S/D/M]
Marty Silverblade
Just to be sure, does Alcohol count as a consumable? DP removers (or morale boosters like Rainbow Candy Canes) would be illegal too, I assume?
Jeydra
I'll accept Chthon's rules, although I'll point out that Bright Star Shine's contention was that Elementalist heroes are terrible, with Monk heroes doing more damage. That's why I wrote about him not using Elementalist offensive heroes and instead a Monk offensive hero for every Elementalist offensive hero I use. I was at some point worried he'd start running Mo/E Searing Flames Monks after I decided on an area though ...
PS: You sure require a lot of screenshots. I'm mildly worried that I won't be able to take a screenshot between 15:00 and 19:59, for example, because I'm concentrating too hard on playing right then. Oh well.
PPS: I hate Hell's Precipice. Jeez, why do you have to pick the most annoying missions around ...
@above - Personally, I'm against the use of both, but I'd say that's for the judges to decide.
EDIT: Can I run 3 offensive Elementalists, forcing Bright Star Shine to use 3 offensive Monks (if he agrees to the terms, of course) and then a different teambuild to match times with Gabs88?
EDIT #2: Can I submit screenshots to the judges by PM instead of posting them here?
PS: You sure require a lot of screenshots. I'm mildly worried that I won't be able to take a screenshot between 15:00 and 19:59, for example, because I'm concentrating too hard on playing right then. Oh well.
PPS: I hate Hell's Precipice. Jeez, why do you have to pick the most annoying missions around ...
@above - Personally, I'm against the use of both, but I'd say that's for the judges to decide.
EDIT: Can I run 3 offensive Elementalists, forcing Bright Star Shine to use 3 offensive Monks (if he agrees to the terms, of course) and then a different teambuild to match times with Gabs88?
EDIT #2: Can I submit screenshots to the judges by PM instead of posting them here?
awry
Hell's precipice, the neutral screw you to both parties? lol SF, lol minions
Life Bringing
I believe the most commonly used heroes for raisu are actually talon and danika. Im going to have to redo raisu without the celestial skill qq.
I'm not sure i agree on the exact same team build rule. Its been a while. but to titans even leave corpses? Its kind of forcing the participants to run without a MM or be gimped in that area
I'm not sure i agree on the exact same team build rule. Its been a while. but to titans even leave corpses? Its kind of forcing the participants to run without a MM or be gimped in that area
Wenspire
I hope everyone has the same lightbringer rank for GoM. I believe that would give an advantage, no?
Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade
Quote:
I'll accept Chthon's rules, although I'll point out that Bright Star Shine's contention was that Elementalist heroes are terrible, with Monk heroes doing more damage. That's why I wrote about him not using Elementalist offensive heroes and instead a Monk offensive hero for every Elementalist offensive hero I use. I was at some point worried he'd start running Mo/E Searing Flames Monks after I decided on an area though ...
Quote:
EDIT: Can I run 3 offensive Elementalists, forcing Bright Star Shine to use 3 offensive Monks (if he agrees to the terms, of course) and then a different teambuild to match times with Gabs88?
I think I'm going to wait to see if Bright Star Shine has anything to say on the topic. If you both agree that that's the point of contention, I'd modify the rules as follows: you can run twice as Jeydra-A and Jeydra-B, where Jeydra-A must run something that's not S/D/M and Jeydra-B must run something with 3 offensive eles; whilst Bright Star Shine must run 3 offensive monks. But, since I'm lazy and don't want to judge 2 sets of screenshots, and I prefer simplicity, I'm going to keep it just "S/D/M vs. not-S/D/M" until BSS pipes up.Quote: PS: You sure require a lot of screenshots. I'm mildly worried that I won't be able to take a screenshot between 15:00 and 19:59, for example, because I'm concentrating too hard on playing right then. Oh well. Raisu should only need start and end shots. The others should only need 3 shots. It's a 5-minute window, so it should be hard to completely miss.
Quote: EDIT #2: Can I submit screenshots to the judges by PM instead of posting them here? For now, I'll look at them in advance and to see if I have any problems with them, but they still need to be posted here in time to be official. (Xeno doesn't know he's a judge yet. I appointed him by fiat.)
Quote:
Anyway, I am not serious about entering this contest as I am sure you guys would beat my timing by a large margin. Good Luck! 