Challenging S/D/M users to a time trial
awry
the drama in this thread has been highly entertaining. We need a sticky thread for mission/vanquish fastest times. It would be fun to see.
Cantos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
I REALLY don't think I can get it down much more, although just scraping past the 8-minute mark is a possibility.
http://img151.imageshack.us/i/gw098i.jpg/
http://img846.imageshack.us/i/gw099.jpg/
http://img861.imageshack.us/f/gw100.jpg/
http://img846.imageshack.us/i/gw101.jpg/ Why is your time so good? Is it your build or the effort you put into playing it?
HigherMinion
I'd like somone to try the Raisu run using a physical hero based team. Faster than dcord?
@above; "Gimped" is anything that isn't optimal. They're right in calling it that.
@above; "Gimped" is anything that isn't optimal. They're right in calling it that.
Morte66
Quote:
Originally Posted by FengShuiDove
DSM is fragile at the start of an area then beefs up as the minions come on stream.
It has too much heal and not enough prot.
The shutdown is decent.
It has reasonable damage if you slant the /S/M part to AoE damage, and use Discord tacked onto the midline/backline as a secondary feature to focus fire on outliers and bosses. A good D/S/M team is M/S/D. This, I think, is the difference between 7 hero D/S/M and the old 3 hero + 4 hench Dway.
Not the best "meta" team I've used, not the worst.
Xenomortis
On the "no micro" thing.
This isn't necessarily a sensible thing when comparing builds. Some people really do build to match their level of ability. If someone has a build that can really take advantage of their micro ability, then why should it be denied? It is most likely the build is designed to work with that micro.
What we have are examples of setups with a "high ceiling" of performance, but also a "low floor" and good players will push for the high ceiling and some are willing to pull in their micro abilities to get there and that influences their builds. Conversely, we have examples of higher floor builds (of which Discord is a historical example) but these typically (and quite rightly) have correspondingly lower ceilings.
You're asking that the builds be run close to the floor of their potential performance.
It really isn't sensible when comparing setups to insist on no-micro. When the builds are created, some people may hold their own ability in mind and that influences (sometimes greatly) their skill choices.
Look at it like this; if you wanted to compare the potential of a WoH-Prot hybrid bar and a bar laden with pure heals to be run in HM areas, would you insist they be run on a bad monk?
I think that highlights in some way, the futility of what is trying to be done.
This isn't necessarily a sensible thing when comparing builds. Some people really do build to match their level of ability. If someone has a build that can really take advantage of their micro ability, then why should it be denied? It is most likely the build is designed to work with that micro.
What we have are examples of setups with a "high ceiling" of performance, but also a "low floor" and good players will push for the high ceiling and some are willing to pull in their micro abilities to get there and that influences their builds. Conversely, we have examples of higher floor builds (of which Discord is a historical example) but these typically (and quite rightly) have correspondingly lower ceilings.
You're asking that the builds be run close to the floor of their potential performance.
It really isn't sensible when comparing setups to insist on no-micro. When the builds are created, some people may hold their own ability in mind and that influences (sometimes greatly) their skill choices.
Look at it like this; if you wanted to compare the potential of a WoH-Prot hybrid bar and a bar laden with pure heals to be run in HM areas, would you insist they be run on a bad monk?
I think that highlights in some way, the futility of what is trying to be done.
Daesu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outerworld
If you want something that would actually benefit the community, do something like this:
With micro:
Best build and average time and with what primary class.
Without micro:
Best build and average time and with what primary class.
This way, people can decide how they want to play and adopt the best meta build for their playstyle.
I am not asking for the judges to deliver this. It doesn't even have to be on this thread (actually better that it be not on this thread with the flames). And afew players can try out the builds and give their input so we can average out their times.
Not my suggestion, the credit should go to mage:
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When it later evolves into putting just putting various hero setups through the mill, it doesn't make sense either.
The thread never explicitly was about replacing the S/D/M meta; it was just to prove a point.
You're not instantly going to find the new meta build that'll replace S/D/M (if that ever happens).
For one, there's very little actually motivating that change. Historically there were several areas that many players might struggle in with H/H meta builds, with 7 heroes there should be very few (unless I give the average player more credit than I should). There are probably only a small number of instances in the game where the S/D/M premise outright fails and when the Underworld, the Deep, Urgoz's Warren and the Domain of Anguish were never supposed to be attempted solo, this isn't surprising. The Discord part presents the biggest weakness to versatility due to the reliance on minions so it may fail in a couple of other places (Shards of Orr, the Ooze Pit (although the latter is simple enough to brute force through I suppose)).
You don't find meta builds by actively looking for them. They come from the adaptation of strong setups and those are found when you don't enforce some rather arbitrary requirements.
And I strongly dislike letting bad players wallow in simple mediocrity just strong enough for success; I would much prefer people push for their own improvement so they may succeed.
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That depends, if you see this as a contest of who has the best mad skillz heroway player that would make sense. If you see this as a contest between builds, that would not be very helpful.
On my Necromancer I run a setup that depends greatly on the interaction between my build and the actions of my heroes. If my heroes didn't attack the target I was calling, or I simply didn't call a target or just did nothing, then the strength of my setup falls rapidly.
I hold that my setup is stronger than S/D/M but it very much depends on my build and my actions (although these actions are simple to perform).
The player matters in a build. The player is a strong influencing factor and if you were to attempt to remove him as a variable you're going to get, not so much erroneous, but irrelevant results. At what point do you draw the line?
I hold that my setup is stronger than S/D/M but it very much depends on my build and my actions (although these actions are simple to perform).
The player matters in a build. The player is a strong influencing factor and if you were to attempt to remove him as a variable you're going to get, not so much erroneous, but irrelevant results. At what point do you draw the line?
aga
So, I guess this 'challenge' is ending prematurely, since nobody else is willing to do some S/D/M times. There seems to be a lot of people defending S/D/M in other threads, but where are they in this one?! All talk and no action I guess.
Anyway I managed to get Raisu done in 9.47 with S/D/M, if anyone cares...
My opinion of S/D/M, is that it is a very viable build, it requires 0 micro'ing, and next to 0 player skill to use. Which is why a lot of people do use it, and this is fine, since the game is made up of primarily casual players who don't really care for speed. However if you are looking to push yourself, and get some fast times, you really should be looking past discord.
Anyway I managed to get Raisu done in 9.47 with S/D/M, if anyone cares...
My opinion of S/D/M, is that it is a very viable build, it requires 0 micro'ing, and next to 0 player skill to use. Which is why a lot of people do use it, and this is fine, since the game is made up of primarily casual players who don't really care for speed. However if you are looking to push yourself, and get some fast times, you really should be looking past discord.
Morte66
Jeydra, would you mind posting the builds (including attributes and runes) for the first team you used? I'd like to give that a try. I aspire to being "average".
Voodoo Rage
So what's the verdict on the "D" part of the team build? I'm still skeptical that Discord really offers that much other that ability to spike down a single target. It still seems like a more "Sabway"-ish approach to the necros would ultimately win out but I could be mistaken.
FoxBat
I got 10:30 for Jedrya's invoke, and 10:45 for S/D/M. With more runs those times might change, and maybe invoke is better, but the times are too close to reflect a real build advantage to me, and more just my weak play skills. I would bet Jedrya could get close times if he put effort into S/D/M as well.
Still, when discord is at best on par with eles... you know something is wrong.
9:30 easy with 5x mesmer...
Still, when discord is at best on par with eles... you know something is wrong.
9:30 easy with 5x mesmer...
aga
The only way to fairly test S/D/M against another build is for the ame person to run both, with no bias shown towards one of the builds. This will never happen, because there's a HUGE amount of 'elitism', oversized egos and snobery around PvE in GW.
Daesu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenomortis
On my Necromancer I run a setup that depends greatly on the interaction between my build and the actions of my heroes. If my heroes didn't attack the target I was calling, or I simply didn't call a target or just did nothing, then the strength of my setup falls rapidly.
I hold that my setup is stronger than S/D/M but it very much depends on my build and my actions (although these actions are simple to perform).
The player matters in a build. The player is a strong influencing factor and if you were to attempt to remove him as a variable you're going to get, not so much erroneous, but irrelevant results. At what point do you draw the line? You can post your player build along with your heroes as a synergizing 8th player in the team.
There is definitely value in posting strong builds that require micro. On the other hand, let's face it, most people turn to sabway or discordway not because they are the most powerful build possible, but because they require very little micro. If you want to influence the masses, that should still be the way to go - posting strong builds that require little or no micro to work well. It is not that most people can't micro, but they are just too lazy to work too hard in a game.
I hold that my setup is stronger than S/D/M but it very much depends on my build and my actions (although these actions are simple to perform).
The player matters in a build. The player is a strong influencing factor and if you were to attempt to remove him as a variable you're going to get, not so much erroneous, but irrelevant results. At what point do you draw the line? You can post your player build along with your heroes as a synergizing 8th player in the team.
There is definitely value in posting strong builds that require micro. On the other hand, let's face it, most people turn to sabway or discordway not because they are the most powerful build possible, but because they require very little micro. If you want to influence the masses, that should still be the way to go - posting strong builds that require little or no micro to work well. It is not that most people can't micro, but they are just too lazy to work too hard in a game.
FoxBat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless
If you ARE looking for speed and dedication to play, you are probably running 6 Mesmers anyways. :P
You don't need skill to make mesway work, and work vastly better in nearly every area without fine-tuning. It really would be the new meta if mercs were free. Playing discord at a base minimum level is harder even as you need to spike out select problem targets first instead of just trashing the whole group at once.
Daesu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cantos
If you are looking to create a new 7-heroes meta, the build ought to require little or no micro, like sabway or discordway. In a timing contest such as this one, the winning entries would most likely be done through micro.
In other words, sabway and discordway are not popular because of their fantastic clearing speeds but rather, they can be effective enough with little or no micro involved.
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