Challenging S/D/M users to a time trial

This should have been a build contest rather than a hero micro-ing skill contest. Now that's one rule you can't enforce... Unless you're implying I'm micro-ing my heroes do note I already mentioned I'm not participating ;>

If this was going to be a fair challenge, then the rules could do with some changing. Since Bright does have to use his ele, when he already stated that he thinks ele do aweful damage in HM, which is true when you consider they are supposed to be a nuking class. So to make it fairer allow him to use his sin, or whatever class he wishes, or this challenege will be just like his DoA challange aimed at Jeydra. I'm a little surprised to have to deal with someone who hasn't finished prophecies on more than 1 character. In my view, as long as Jeydra is not using something better than an ele, BSS is not at a disadvantage by having to use one. However, I don't really care. So, if no one objects, I'd be inclined to let BSS change the player character to something else for the other two zones.

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A note to all the people saying "oh, I messed up my screenshots," so I'm too late and won't compete." You still have ~29 hours left just for Raisu, and several days left on the other two.

Jeydra, you pretty much Fall Backed past all groups possible? Or did you kill most/all groups on your path? No; given Star Burst and other constricted areas in Raisu that isn't really possible. But as long as this contest continues I'm not at liberty to say much more. Are we continuing anyway? I have screenshots for Gates of Madness and Hell's Precipice, albeit not complete (i.e. once every 5 minutes or something) and I'd like to know if I should try to improve on them. Times were something like 15 minutes for Gates of Madness, probably improvable because I lost some 30 seconds trying to attune an already-attuned altar, while I hit 12 minutes for Hell's Precipice (probably not improvable).

I just got Raisu HM in 9:12, but given how hard I pressed I don't think I can get it much faster - at least, my dream of getting it under 9 minutes is probably impossible with this teambuild ...

At this point I suspect Nika is more effective than Cynn, but I have not tried.

@Bright Star Shine - if you want a DoA test run, sure. Pick one area only; I'm not interested in a full run. No consumables and no Shadow Form / Vow of Silence / Obsidian Flesh / Spellbreaker.

I should say that the builds I've used for DoA HM so far involve no offensive Elementalists (unless you count me as an offensive Elementalist), however.

I don't think I'm quite getting this. So in order to 'decide' which is the best/fastest killing 7H setup you're doing a few HM missions ... where tactics are a major deciding factor in time... ?

IMO this should be a few vanquishes with a straight-forward fastest route and no silly patrols. So the only difference in time can, and will, be how fast you kill. No? QFT. Which is why the entire contest is utterly pointless.

Things I see wrong with the whole Jeydra vs Bright Star Shine "competition"

1. Shiroken comes in relatively small group, it favours Chain Lightning / Invoke Lightning...where their biggest weakness had always been "only hit 3 targets"

2. Shiroken monk uses reverse hex/shield guardian, shiroken mesmer uses shatter hex, shiroken ritualists have recuperation / life, every shiroken has song of the mist. It counters spiteful spirit / MoP...being able to spike with multiple air spells is a big advantage in that area.

Then there are issues like micro and tactics. There are TOO MANY VARIABLES not taken care of.

P.S. Bright Star Shine, told you that "its a trap!" in the other post.

QFT. Which is why the entire contest is utterly pointless.

Things I see wrong with the whole Jeydra vs Bright Star Shine "competition"

1. Shiroken comes in relatively small group, it favours Chain Lightning / Invoke Lightning...where their biggest weakness had always been "only hit 3 targets"

2. Shiroken monk uses reverse hex/shield guardian, shiroken mesmer uses shatter hex, shiroken ritualists have recuperation / life, every shiroken has song of the mist. It counters spiteful spirit / MoP...being able to spike with multiple air spells is a big advantage in that area.

Then there are issues like micro and tactics. There are TOO MANY VARIABLES not taken care of.

P.S. Bright Star Shine, told you that "its a trap!" in the other post. Its a relatively balanced area. While individual groups are small (4), you can easily lure 2 together in about 75% of the situations, if they don't already start together when you aggro them. Moderate hex/enchantment removal isn't unknown for most PvE reasons and being able to handle that is important for builds. The only real thing messing up comparisons is that the rits actually have Restoration, which can obviously be a bitch and cost a good 10s if it lands in the wrong place. Its not much though. The important thing is that you can do repeated runs and just submit the best time. Micro is irrelevant, all players are allowed to micro obviously. Tactics are mostly irrelevant, Raisu is set up so that there isn't really any way to "cheese" it, unless you see an 8x Shadow Form team with each hero running and soloing its own boss you can rest assured everyone is playing pretty much the same.

Essentially, Raisu Palace is fair and representative of an average PvE area. Its probably the most constant area in Guild Wars in terms of spawns and how you can play it, its short so the variation won't be too large, and it is at about the mid-high range of PvE difficulty. Go ahead and point out another area, chances are I can poke a dozen holes 2x the size for each issue you have with Raisu. If in the end the disparity between two builds is something ridiculously small like 10s then its probably not statistically significant and we won't care, but its not going to be that close.

Its a relatively balanced area. While individual groups are small (4), you can easily lure 2 together in about 75% of the situations, if they don't already start together when you aggro them. Moderate hex/enchantment removal isn't unknown for most PvE reasons and being able to handle that is important for builds. The only real thing messing up comparisons is that the rits actually have Restoration, which can obviously be a bitch and cost a good 10s if it lands in the wrong place. Its not much though. The important thing is that you can do repeated runs and just submit the best time. Micro is irrelevant, all players are allowed to micro obviously. Tactics are mostly irrelevant, Raisu is set up so that there isn't really any way to "cheese" it, unless you see an 8x Shadow Form team with each hero running and soloing its own boss you can rest assured everyone is playing pretty much the same.

Essentially, Raisu Palace is fair and representative of an average PvE area. Its probably the most constant area in Guild Wars in terms of spawns and how you can play it, its short so the variation won't be too large, and it is at about the mid-high range of PvE difficulty. Go ahead and point out another area, chances are I can poke a dozen holes 2x the size for each issue you have with Raisu. If in the end the disparity between two builds is something ridiculously small like 10s then its probably not statistically significant and we won't care, but its not going to be that close. Exactly...every area has holes to poke, which is the problem with this contest to begin with. If I tell people to do Jaga Morgaine and force one guy to use all eles, it would also be unfair due to the spectral vaettirs.

We also have to ensure that no microing are done...which is impossible to prove. Maybe get people to frap their run showing all of their aggro are just "blind rush". Then we have to test the resiliency of the build...get people to go to areas with HUGE mobs and patrols and get them to frap themselves aggroing about 20 monsters, and come out unscathed...which is one of the strong point about DMS and its variants.

And more more more.

The only way to make it work? Get Anet to allow us to use BOTS, and get both teams to move in exactly the same way with the exact same time, then test at least a dozen areas to account for different variables.

@Bright Star Shine - if you want a DoA test run, sure. Pick one area only; I'm not interested in a full run. No consumables and no Shadow Form / Vow of Silence / Obsidian Flesh / Spellbreaker.

I should say that the builds I've used for DoA HM so far involve no offensive Elementalists (unless you count me as an offensive Elementalist), however. You still don't get it, do you? The only reason I started that contest was to provoke you. You started this and you were saying "you're probably not man enough to do it". I knew you wouldn't enter the challenge under my terms, because you know I'm a pretty experienced DoA tank and I would woop your ass by at least an hour. I'm not gonna let you change the rules, why would I? Now either compete under my terms or admit you're nothing but a little bitch that's too afraid to do anything besides that what he's good at. This contest was never fair to begin with. I knew I was never going to win, let alone come close to winning. I suck at using heroes, I know this. I never said otherwise, I never claimed to be any good with heroes. I know that heroes are your area of expertise, and that you, and probably a lot of other people are way better than me at using heroes, I never denied this.

So, want to enter under my terms, which dictate that you can do whatever the hell you want, which in my opinion is a lot more fair than telling people what they have to do, restricting their abilities and such so that you are more likely to win? Who's the best contestant now? The one that says: you can try to beat me in every way you can think possible, or the one that says "you can't do this, this, this, this, and especially not this" because he knows you will beat him if you do?
Most likely not, because who's gonna win, the balanced "hero god" or the one that actually knows DoA and how to do the area? I know who, that's for one.

Now, I won't be doing Hell's for today, because I'm at my gf's dorm, on my laptop, and I'm not feeling like doing anything that requires more brainpower than solving double integrals.

But, the entire point of my post, how the hell did you guys get such fast times in Raisu? It's pretty strong imo, and I want to know how. Did you skip half the groups? Did you sprint to the cutscenes? Please do tell me.

I wasn't aware it was a competition of who the best player was at clearing x-area. I thought it was about comparing the heroes/builds in the group in x-area? EXACTLY! When I saw this thread the first thought that came through in my head was "this won't end well", and I was right.

Not only are there many variables that wasn't taken into account (I've explained it way too many times already), but pure speed is NOT the only factor that makes a build good.

Some of the builds I see on here would completely fall apart in the harder dungeons. One hybrid healer + 1/2 Smiter are generally not enough for general play. Survivability of a build should be factored into making a build good. Adaptability is also another one...areas with heavy strip/interrupts would RUIN ele based teams. Ohh, and there's also ease of play which sould be factored in too.

Remember, this is a heroes contest, NOT a speed clear contest. Part of make some builds good is that they're foolproof, does decent damage, and has high resiliency. If I have a build that clears at record speed, but if the moment I lag and accidently aggroed one more group cause me to wipe, then its not a good build...its a glass cannon build.