Bright; you realise the reason you're not doing DoA, and especially not doing DoA as a tank sin, is because you're testing hero builds. Tanking holds no merit in PvE in the fashion you do while in DoA. All you need then are 6 RoJ heroes and a little partyheal. There is no room for error or robustness.
If you want to claim your excellence, start a new thread about your excellence.
Jeydra
Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
30 Mar 2011 at 11:37 - 125
@Bright Star Shine - perhaps you need a reminder of why you got into this spat with me in the first place.
This started because of the Invoke Lightning change, which I argued was a nerf, hitting a niche for Elementalists in 7H situations. You thought it was absurd, arguing that the niche doesn't exist because Elementalists don't deal damage in HM anyway. You further wrote that Monks deal more damage, that my heroes carried me through Foundry HM, that I'm not a 7H God, that if Elementalists did so much damage why don't people use them, and that if Nightfall has been out for four years, why haven't the builds I developed become meta yet? In short, you did all you could to convince me that you're better than me at Guild Wars.
We put this to test, and your times were way behind mine. What's more, your screenshots showed that you don't know how to make builds. The teambuild you used for Raisu has multiple flaws, immediately obvious to the trained eye. It showed your lack of skill to the point that I immediately concluded you have no chance of beating my 7H times anywhere, with any primary profession even, if Shadow Form / Vow of Silence / Obsidian Flesh / Spellbreaker / consumables are banned.
And now, after being completely destroyed in this time trial, you say that you can DoA tank better than me.
Very likely, you can. But it doesn't matter. You completely leaped out of the ring and are fighting an imaginary opponent. My original statement that Elementalists can deal damage in HM was directed for general 7H use + caster primary, and I believe my screenshots have proven that fairly conclusively. Your ability to tank DoA simply isn't relevant here. It's like saying that you're the best GvG'er ever, and cite your ability to tank DoA better than anyone else as proof. Why does it matter, and who cares?
You lost. You actually did worse than lose, you have no idea why you lost. You ask why everyone else are faster than you, yet fail to consider the obvious answer: you're a worse player than everyone else.
I suggest you spend more time talking to Life Bringing about builds. In the meantime, I'm through with you.
@UnChosen - that's why we have three areas to contest: Raisu, Gate of Madness and Hell's Precipice. I think also that you underestimate the resilience of the teambuilds. I took Star Burst a few times in Raisu Palace, but still turned in a record time. I'm pretty confident one Smiter + one semi-healer suffices for general play, but maybe not for the more difficult dungeons.
@Frozen Ele - that I think is a far better argument for Water Magic than all the arguments you've posted before, although 5/7 of the heroes you're using are almost the same as mine, lol.
Do you have a screenshot of the same build in Gate of Madness / Hell's Precipice?
@EFGJack - Lol, those times are why I said you're the best ever I'll try to cut my times down further, but not very optimistic about it.
Dzjudz
Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Jun 2005
gwpvx.com/user:dzjudz
30 Mar 2011 at 11:47 - 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morte66
Who else wants Jeydra to do Raisu with Dway, and some Dway people to do it with Jeydra's team, and then have them post calm analyses of the differences?
This. Times are probably very relative to player skill/tactics.
@Bright Star Shine - perhaps you need a reminder of why you got into this spat with me in the first place.
This started because of the Invoke Lightning change, which I argued was a nerf, hitting a niche for Elementalists in 7H situations. You thought it was absurd, arguing that the niche doesn't exist because Elementalists don't deal damage in HM anyway. You further wrote that Monks deal more damage, that my heroes carried me through Foundry HM, that I'm not a 7H God, that if Elementalists did so much damage why don't people use them, and that if Nightfall has been out for four years, why haven't the builds I developed become meta yet? In short, you did all you could to convince me that you're better than me at Guild Wars.
We put this to test, and your times were way behind mine. What's more, your screenshots showed that you don't know how to make builds. The teambuild you used for Raisu has multiple flaws, immediately obvious to the trained eye. It showed your lack of skill to the point that I immediately concluded you have no chance of beating my 7H times anywhere, with any primary profession even, if Shadow Form / Vow of Silence / Obsidian Flesh / Spellbreaker / consumables are banned.
Yeah, my teambuild sucked, because I didn't put a lot of thought into it tbh. I just randomly slapped some skills on my heroes, because some of their bars were still set to Discord or in the mesmers cases, weren't even set at all.. I know this.
Quote:
And now, after being completely destroyed in this time trial, you say that you can DoA tank better than me.
Yeah, the fact that I am in a DoASC guild might actually imply that I will most likely be better at DoA than you, not only as tank, but in every way, except at doing 7H balanced clears.
Quote:
Very likely, you can. But it doesn't matter. You completely leaped out of the ring and are fighting an imaginary opponent. My original statement that Elementalists can deal damage in HM was directed for general 7H use + caster primary, and I believe my screenshots have proven that fairly conclusively. Your ability to tank DoA simply isn't relevant here. It's like saying that you're the best GvG'er ever, and cite your ability to tank DoA better than anyone else as proof. Why does it matter, and who cares?
It does indeed not matter here, but the case is still that you challenged me to a challenge you KNEW you were going to win because you ARE in fact better at using heroes than I am. I know this. I never denied this, I took your challenge, knowing I was going to lose, but I was still pissed off because you called me out for not being man enough, or said I wasn't going to compete anyway. I did, you didn't, why? Because out of the two of us, you are still the little bitch that is too afraid to take a challenge he knows he can't win. Worse even, you try to twist it in such a way that you will be able to win it, banning the things I am actually good at, so you know I have less chance of winning. Actually, on top of that, I offered you a money reward for that challenge, and you dragged that reward to this challenge. You're not only a whiny bitch, you're also a greedy bastard.
Quote:
You lost. You actually did worse than lose, you have no idea why you lost. You ask why everyone else are faster than you, yet fail to consider the obvious answer: you're a worse player than everyone else.
If you read a couple posts back, you will see that I actually already said I know I am a worse player than the others. I actually said that I am not good at using heroes. So, I did see that.
Btw, since when is it bad to ask things? I live by the vision that if you don't know how something works, asking is always the better way out. I can't stand when in DoA, people don't know how something works and are too afraid to ask and end up making mistakes.
Quote:
I suggest you spend more time talking to Life Bringing about builds. In the meantime, I'm through with you.
Don't worry, you did exactly what I wanted, and even more. You made me really happy when you tried to take the 50e reward here, it proved more than I wanted. You showed the entire guru community what kind of a little bitch you are. I might have shown that I can be a real bastard at times, and that I can get on my high horse, but at least I know this. I don't deny anything. I never denied being bad at heroes. I never denied being an arrogant bastard at times. You on the other hand, do deny being the little bitch you are. I'm in fact a really nice guy, you just made the mistake of trying to piss me off and telling me I'm not man enough to do something.
Thank you, very much.
Now, I was going to post something useful too, but since my class started 5 minutes ago, I'll be running now...
I agree that Bright Star Shine is going way off from the purpose of the thread. However, that "result" doesn't mean anything. A MORE accurate way to test ele vs everything else would be 6 eles + 2 healer (same build) versus 6 necros/mesmers/rits + 2 healers (same build). Although even then I could think of some problems...
Both of you (and frozen ele) had a MM + Mesmer + Rit core...THAT is what is contributing the most to the team, directly (damage) and indrectly (minion distraction + interrupts). The difference between your time and Bright Star Shine's time is PURELY player skill, IMO.
When I mean resiliency, I mean something along tanking TWO slaver's exile mobs...which I've personally done using a slightly altered DMS. (I didn't do it on purpose, I misjudged a patrol...STILL, this is something that should be taken into account when making builds)
Blah, different definition leads to misunderstanding.
To me general play goes all the way up to slaver's exile HM...maybe I'm overestimating people's ability? Also, general play to me involves accidents as well.
Yes, general play involves accidents. When accidents happen the teambuild is generally expected to survive, at least for long enough to escape. If the accident is severe enough, the team may wipe. In most cases that means you res, and have a second try with 15% DP - and that generally means no more accidents. All good teambuilds should still be able to kill mobs with 15% DP. 30% DP might still be doable, although by 45% to 60% DP, you'll probably need extreme care. Taking on two Slaver's HM mobs ... that would depend on which mobs you're thinking of. If it's Wretched Wolves + Modinirs, I bet the teambuild I ran should survive too.
Regarding the Elementalists, I don't think they deal awesome damage relative to everyone. I think they deal awesome damage relative to everyone after the Rits and MM are excluded. So even if I had mercenaries, I wouldn't run 6 Eles + 2 healers.
Bright Star Shine's times are terrible not only because of a difference in skill. His builds are terrible. I mean, just look at them. He has no idea how to use Smiting Monks, or how to best fit Smiting Monks into teams. He uses Pain Inverter, has Spiteful Spirit with a Keystone Mesmer, etc. He may not realize it, but I would wager that his teambuild is worse than S/D/M.
Also: just got a Raisu Palace HM clear in 8:10, I could never have imagined it either.
Arrogant Bastard
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Aug 2009
Your mom's house
E/
30 Mar 2011 at 12:37 - 132
Slightly OT but...Bright Star Shine, please stop dropping "subtle" cues that you are in college in every other post.
Really weakens your argument when you call someone a whiny bitch while constantly reminding everyone that you are a whiny college kid.
Regarding the thread topic, I think competing for times is great; however, if you want to compare builds it might be better for several people to run each build and post the result.
Mage767's idea would probably be best, but it would take much longer to get a large enough sample.
Jeydra
Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
30 Mar 2011 at 13:37 - 133
Just so I don't miss the deadline if we are continuing for some reason ...
I REALLY don't think I can get it down much more, although just scraping past the 8-minute mark is a possibility.
Ok, I took the liberty to doing Raisu using S/D/M, now let me make this clear, I DO NOT like S/D/M, I think discord is complete trash, but nobody else was posting times with the build, so someone had to step up. This was my only run, and i was only using standard builds.
Let me take this time to say: stop using SoGM rits guys, its a horrible hero build and its doubly horrible for speed runs.
I don't think anyone should be skipping mobs other than the obvious danika part, but I suppose you can't prevent people from doing it and trusting them not to is just asking for trouble...
Daesu
Furnace Stoker
Join Date: Oct 2008
30 Mar 2011 at 15:32 - 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunder
Let me take this time to say: stop using SoGM rits guys, its a horrible hero build and its doubly horrible for speed runs.
Not really. I tried both with and without the SoGM and the SoGM does help with damage and spirit tanking a lot more than other alternatives. Furthermore, didn't Jeydra posted over 8 mins for Raisu with a SoGM in the team?
One thing you realize with their builds is that they reduced healing (and other non-damage skills) to cramp as much damage as possible and few builds can match the SoGM with that. With the ability to micro, they can minimize their need for healing. I have to reduce healing from my generic builds and start micro-ing if I ever hope to improve my timing. But that's such a pain....
Notice the lack of Panic in most of the builds.
Quote:
I don't think anyone should be skipping mobs other than the obvious danika part, but I suppose you can't prevent people from doing it and trusting them not to is just asking for trouble...
For Raisu, you can skip some stranglers and flag your heroes ahead, but if you skip too much you risk killing Mhenlo and your npcs which you cannot flag. Killing Mhenlo would fail the mission for you and killing danika or cynn would punish your speed. It helps if you have killing speed, if I use a different primary profession there is a big difference in time. Knowing the mission and knowing when to skip certainly helps.
Mage's idea is probably the best. I have no strong opinion one way or the other on this topic. I've used Discord before, and I've since used a more "balanced" backline in some different areas. I love the experimentation, and so even though I haven't been posting I've been keeping an eye on this thread. This week has been absolutely ridiculous in my personal life, but here's what I'll do as soon as possible, probably this evening:
RUNS:
I will perform four runs, using two team builds. All will be in Raisu Palace HM. I will not skip groups, I will keep the helpers the same, and I will use the same tactics to the best of my ability in each run.
1. D/S/M
2. "Myway"
3. "Myway"
4. D/S/M
I may only time the last 2 runs, I may time all 4 and take the average. The idea here is that the first 2 runs will be to case the joint and make sure I'm aware of all mob locations and tactics before I time each run. If I feel there are any major setbacks or variables, I'll do an extra run.
I will be running an Assassin Dagger + SY spammer, but I will NOT bring hero builds in "Myway" that abuse my being a physical. In other words, I will not bring Strength of Honor, Orders, or any other builds that make physicals strikingly more potent.
Whether or not you believe this will be an unbiased and fair trial is of little relevance really. Since I suspect most major pro/opponents of DSM and other builds not specifically stated will not be swayed from their opinion by any results posted, I see this as simply sharing some of my own research with you here.
Lastly, if anyone has suggestions for team builds they'd like me to run, feel free to PM me. I'll probably report my own team build first (which, fair warning, may be sub-optimal) and then get around to anyone who sends me a message with a suggested build.
Well all the builds for S/D/M are on PvX, yet I'm the only one who has bothered doing it, and the onyl skill i was microing was fall back. And you can't really give another team build to use against S/D/M, since the challenege was supposed to be anything/everything vs S/D/M.
So more people need to do S/D/M times, and come up with their own builds for the other side challenege, I'm guess anything without Discord is fine.
Life Bringing
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Jul 2008
Fissure of Woe
[LOD]/[GS]/[DL]/[LOD*]
N/P
30 Mar 2011 at 17:17 - 142
Bright, please calm down. I realize that you feel insulted, but lashing out isn't helping to get your point across. We all know that you can outtank jeydra in DoA. Similarly, we all know that jeydra is a better h/h player than you. This is obvious to everyone, and there really isn't any need for a contest to prove it. The fact that you've dragged this out over so many WoTs is kinda sad, and, while jeydra isn't innocent, much of the provocation has been supplied by you.
I'd be willing to supply the S/D/M control times if this contest is going anywhere. However, it appears that this contest is beginning to go in a new direction. I believe the easiest way to resolve this is for the people who were apart of the contest to each submit their build and allow a group of third party participants to use each build in the aforementioned areas. This takes the tactics variable out of the equation and allows a fair speed comparison to be made.
timbo_3101
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Jan 2010
R/
30 Mar 2011 at 18:53 - 143
With all due respect, why does Bright Star Shine outrank Jeydra or anyone in DoA? After criticising one and all for their (amazing) times and passing judgement from Pom Pom downwards, his claiming to be a member of a DoAsc guild is evidence that he outranks or can actually produce a 7H clear of DoA (HM)???
Familiarity with DoA is only one aspect of executing a full run, whereas by demonstrating a fundamental deficiency in technical ability, in constructing synergistic builds, in hero micro/management and in PvE tactics, he has lost all credibility in this forum. To say, as he himself has repeatedly boasted, that he would be capable of producing a 7H clear of DoA (HM) would be somewhat generous :P
[Nika]
Academy Page
Join Date: Dec 2010
Fissure Of Woe
Mage Is [SenT]
A/E
30 Mar 2011 at 19:08 - 144
Would anyone here be so nice and explain me what exactly is meant with S/D/M?
Outerworld
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Aug 2010
UK
Gil Worz Is Srs [Bsns]
W/
30 Mar 2011 at 19:12 - 145
S/D/M = Spirit, Discord, mesway.
aga
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Feb 2009
England
A/
30 Mar 2011 at 19:13 - 146
Spirit-way mes-way and discord build combined, 3 necro, 2 mes, 2 rit heroes.
[Nika]
Academy Page
Join Date: Dec 2010
Fissure Of Woe
Mage Is [SenT]
A/E
30 Mar 2011 at 19:14 - 147
Ah ok.
Is 2 Rits and 2 Mes and 3 others allowed as non-S/D/M?
Well, if I may, Raisu HM isn't the best place in my opinion to test builds. I know mage suggested doing it without skipping, but tbh, it's not that great. If anything, I would either run GoM or Hell's, because there is more pressure there. Raisu is practically a walk in the park, in my case it might have been a slower walk, but it still was one. Only trouble with GoM is keeping the lich alive -ironically- when capping shrines, but that's just basic flagging.
Wenspire
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Mar 2008
USA - W.Coast
HiME
Mo/
30 Mar 2011 at 21:12 - 152
I would still suggest vloxen dungeon (with no 2nd level exploit) or selves. you pretty much cannot skip any groups and they are more at the calibre of challenging by being dual-classed enemies.
@Life Bringing - lol, it wasn't obvious to him at first. To be fair, it wasn't obvious to me either. Like, if I were the one who had to use 2 offensive Monks, I would drop the heals from the Rit and run fewer (or no) heals on other characters, and tailor my offense accordingly. There's little guarantee that this setup would be significantly slower than the ones I used in this thread. I suspect it will be slower, but even if it is, it won't be by a lot, especially if one Monk is using UA. Of course though, I kind of grossly overestimated BSS's skill ...
Assuming one's skill is estimated in how fast one can clear Raisu Palace HM? I think I missed something down the line, but the last time I checked I don't think people measure their abilities on this. What did go wrong is that you challenged me, a person who never uses heroes anyway, and if I do, I am satisfied if they get me from point A to point B, I don't care how fast they do it. This challenge was broken from the start, it's like challenging a really strong guy with a limp leg to a running competition. He can compete, for sure, but he'll be slow, because he's constraint by his leg, he might beat you at arm wrestling though, but you wouldn't challenge him to one.
Quote:
@timbo - he probably can do it, he'll just run a SF Sin and micro a DoASC with a hundred different consumables to back him up. I don't think he can do it any other way, not until he gets better anyway.
Yep. I could do it balanced, but to hell I'm spending 3h+ in there.
HigherMinion
Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
East Anglia, UK
Order of [Thay]
N/
31 Mar 2011 at 00:56 - 156
I vote highminion's idea was best... Just, throwing that out there.
What was the original intent of this thread anyway?
FengShuiDove
Forge Runner
Join Date: Sep 2007
Trinity of the Ascended [ToA]
A/
31 Mar 2011 at 02:30 - 157
Sooooo, so far I've actually got that S/D/M is about 3% faster than the two configurations I've run. The first was my DoA build, and the second was a hobbled together abuse of physical buffs including a Dwayna's Orders Derv, and Commandagon, and a R/P Spearchucker with some secondary Command. I did pick up drops (too ingrained in me to do so ), and there was one chest I opened in the DoA build run and two chests in the Physical build run. Although these differences are really minor. Oh, and lastly, I forgot to apply Strength of Honor to myself until about 7 minutes in, which, in a measurement of seconds, might make a difference .
Times so far:
D/S/M - 13:20
DoA - 13:57
Phys - 13:51
The smallest difference is half a minute, over 13 minutes for about a 3.8% difference. I did die once in the D/S/M run -- I felt like the build had a lot more focus on spike healing, whereas the DoA build was incredibly proactive about prot with Soul Twisting instead of an MM. The Phys build likewise was actually very safe (much to my surprise).
From what I've seen so far, DSM actually does have pretty solid shutdown and damage potential. I think it's not proactive enough and most of the prot relies on minions... the other builds were effective immediately, but DSM started to plow when a minion army got brought up.
More timing to come! I'm definitely going to do some different kinds of areas, namely some with lack of corpses. Since minions can be run just as well with AotL or Jagged Bones, that will help isolate the damage from Discord itself and supporting skills rather than the strength of a minion army. I believe DSM really hinges on heavy corpse usage for damage mitigation and proactive rather than reactive healing/prot.
Tried and Triumphed
Academy Page
Join Date: Oct 2009
America
E/A
31 Mar 2011 at 05:04 - 158
"Tell you what let's have a fist fight but here's the catch you can only throw a right hook because of it's knockout power; however, I can throw any combination of punches I want" That's basically what I took from reading this challenge
I hestiate to add to the general melee, but wouldn't Dragon's Lair HM without bonus be a good challenge. I know it's not considered particularly difficult, but at least you get a guaranteed set of effects to test the all-round utility of a team build......
I'll try to cut my times down further, but not very optimistic about it.
.
), and there was one chest I opened in the DoA build run and two chests in the Physical build run. Although these differences are really minor. Oh, and lastly, I forgot to apply Strength of Honor to myself until about 7 minutes in, which, in a measurement of seconds, might make a difference 
