Update - January 5, 2012
Lishy
This is quite a great update. Now I wonder what would happen to Rangers and Paragons..
StormDragonZ
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Swingline
I call it Icy Flames
|
Avatar Exico
I can see spike build comming with all Mind spells, Mind Shock, Mind Freeze, Mind Burn. Now that all 3 got changed they do hard hitting dmg and got after effects too which makes them really nice. constant KD, 90% slow movement and burning what more want, sick combo right there.
DiogoSilva
Commenting on the less flashy changes, Unsteady Ground and Churning Earth are great! The former can be cast so many times now, the later no longer takes forever to cast. I used them on a vanquish alongside EBSoH, and had very satisfying results. The HM changes were also noticeable to me. Most of the time, I didn't need EBSoH to deal good damage, although there were always the ocasional hard-armored mobs here and there.
So far, PvE eles don't feel overpowered too me. They feel just right, varying from excellent support and damage to little of both, depending on how many mobs are balled up and/ or how high their armor is.
Obsidian Flame is also great! It's a spammable non-elite for earth magic that is great at spiking high armored foes, and is great for PvP! It does not works with EBSoH, though, but even then I still felt it was worth sticking it to my UG/ CE build. It never once gave me exhaustion problems for the entire vanquish, so the same should apply to the new Chain Lightning, as long as you don't have Invoke alongside Chain anymore. So my fears that air got one less good non-elite skill were unfounded.
EDIT:
You guys might like this:
Source: https://forum.guildwars.com/forum/fo...-Skills/page/1
So far, PvE eles don't feel overpowered too me. They feel just right, varying from excellent support and damage to little of both, depending on how many mobs are balled up and/ or how high their armor is.
Obsidian Flame is also great! It's a spammable non-elite for earth magic that is great at spiking high armored foes, and is great for PvP! It does not works with EBSoH, though, but even then I still felt it was worth sticking it to my UG/ CE build. It never once gave me exhaustion problems for the entire vanquish, so the same should apply to the new Chain Lightning, as long as you don't have Invoke alongside Chain anymore. So my fears that air got one less good non-elite skill were unfounded.
EDIT:
You guys might like this:
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zack Nickerson
@Kiki: The hero/henchman AI should be able to use their doublecast spells but they do tend to like to use them super-optimally, meaning they usually won’t use them unless they’re reaping most of the benefits of the skill. With Double Dragon, for instance, the AI might not use the skill unless both fire rings will hit enemies. That said, if you guys are finding them being used too infrequently in normal combat, I can talk with the designers and see what we want to do about tweaking the AI a little.
@Markiisi: The effect you mentioned about doublecast spells being applied to the nearest ally when you target a foe is an intended feature. Good find though, I wasn’t expecting people to notice that for a long while! |
Avatar Exico
I shocked as results with Shockwave, I had like 12 in earth magic with no runes or anything it does 150dmg aoe, I couldnt fathem of what Shockwave would do with 15 Earth. What
Just realize that Mist Form is now similar to AoD if no one notice that. Tons Mist form eles spamming water magic spells and watching whole party stay at full hp that be pretty cool.
I can see Elite build that would be all Eles now have one ele as Energy Boon and rest as Mist form Eles, and just watch all maythem begin
Just realize that Mist Form is now similar to AoD if no one notice that. Tons Mist form eles spamming water magic spells and watching whole party stay at full hp that be pretty cool.
I can see Elite build that would be all Eles now have one ele as Energy Boon and rest as Mist form Eles, and just watch all maythem begin
Ensign
There are some interesting changes for PvP. Gust is very strong; the new Mirror of Ice has a lot of good tricks, and I think Mind Freeze has a lot of potential as well.
In PvE? None of the new elites will replace AP or ER on a player Ele. Losing Invoke + Chain is a substantial hit to Ele heroes. The only real buff to Eles, on the high end, is the armor reduction; everything else was rearranging the order of bad skills.
This will help with viability and variety in the mid-level and casual demographics, however - and at this point, that should be seen as the goal.
In PvE? None of the new elites will replace AP or ER on a player Ele. Losing Invoke + Chain is a substantial hit to Ele heroes. The only real buff to Eles, on the high end, is the armor reduction; everything else was rearranging the order of bad skills.
This will help with viability and variety in the mid-level and casual demographics, however - and at this point, that should be seen as the goal.
bhavv
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DiogoSilva
Commenting on the less flashy changes, Unsteady Ground and Churning Earth are great!
|
Double Dragon is my favourite, the animation is just absolutely wonderful.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ensign
In PvE? None of the new elites will replace AP or ER on a player Ele. Losing Invoke + Chain is a substantial hit to Ele heroes
|
Avatar Exico
I can just see eles now dominating Elite areas of Guild Wars like Paragons did when had Imbagonway build when it was full of paragons, and now might be happening again for eles cause got very nice dmg output for eles and got some nice survival too making decent Offense and Defense. Adding cons just add more OPness to eles now.
Mintha Syl
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DiogoSilva
Unsteady Ground and Churning Earth are great! The former can be cast so many times now, the later no longer takes forever to cast.
|
ashes
Remember SFway in doa? Maybe well see that again, if it ever died?
Or maybe: Glyph of Energy, Arcane Echo, Meteor Shower, Air of Superiority
Or maybe: Glyph of Energy, Arcane Echo, Meteor Shower, Air of Superiority
Swingline
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ashes
Remember SFway in doa? Maybe well see that again, if it ever died?
|
WhiteAsIce
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ensign
The only real buff to Eles, on the high end, is the armor reduction; everything else was rearranging the order of bad skills.
|
Avatar Exico
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ashes
Remember SFway in doa? Maybe well see that again, if it ever died?
Or maybe: Glyph of Energy, Arcane Echo, Meteor Shower, Air of Superiority |
bhavv
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by WhiteAsIce
Countless complaining has made HM harder for everyone now that foes have more health. Eles aren't doing more damage - their damage is simply being reduced less.
|
Not hard.
And isnt HARD mode supposed to be HARD anyway? Because it isnt and never has been. It was only ever a case of finding the right builds then winning everything with ease.
Essence Snow
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by bhavv
Yes I'm going to change stone sheath back to UG on my all elly team, I was just testing out the new skills.
Double Dragon is my favourite, the animation is just absolutely wonderful. Sorry, but my video proves you wrong. Please stick to commenting about PVP only. |
I have done much testing myself with specifically the double casting skills on heros. My findings?..They do NOT use them very well. Unless swarmed by melee mobs, heros will cast every skill in thier bar except thier elite. Humans should be able to use these in a much more efficient manner (barring some players who simply don't cast on allies).
I agree the skill animations are very nice and some of the changes are nice, but until the second part of the update hits we can only comment on what we have, and that's more show than anything tbh. Once we have the full update and can put complete bars together then we can fully justify the validity of eles.
bhavv
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Avatar Exico
Mist Form seems to be more suited in Elite areas cause dont need a bonder and because each player takes 33% less dmg if mob suffer from water hex. xxx% heal from a spell make whole party to full cause of all spikes go off thus adding even more survival.
|
Spamming Burning Speed under Mist form with Frigid Armour, Glyph of elly power, Elemental Lord and Armour of Frost only heals the part for exactly 30 points per 10e cost of Burning speed at 20 water magic.
Its far less effective than just using a monk with Healing burst.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Essence Snow
I have done much testing myself with specifically the double casting skills on heros. My findings?..They do NOT use them very well. Unless swarmed by melee mobs, heros will cast every skill in thier bar except thier elite. Humans should be able to use these in a much more efficient manner (barring some players who simply don't cast on allies).
|
The arguments thus far are:
- Invoke nerf hurts elly heroes - it doesnt, elly heroes are now a lot more valid with plenty of other elites
- Player ellys still wont use anything other than Invoke, ER, or AP - .... LOL No, look at all the people in this thread using other elites.
Prior to this update I wasnt using anything other than ER in HM, now I can actually use a lot of elly elites instead, and they work very powerfully in HM.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Essence Snow
I watched the vid mentioned and tbh it doesn't prove much if anything. It showed that with ele skills Ebsoh shines....always has.....that blind will negate melee dmg...always has...that the mobs in that particular area are not very diverse (all melee and 1 monk)....not a true test..
|
DiogoSilva
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by WhiteAsIce
GG Eles. Countless complaining has made HM harder for everyone now that foes have more health. Eles aren't doing more damage - their damage is simply being reduced less.
|
Quote:
| Once we have the full update and can put complete bars together then we can fully justify the validity of eles. |
Quote:
| I didnt reccomend using the double cast skills on heroes, I could tell from the minute I saw them that the AI would be terrible with them. |
Light of Cantha
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ensign
There are some interesting changes for PvP. Gust is very strong; the new Mirror of Ice has a lot of good tricks, and I think Mind Freeze has a lot of potential as well.
In PvE? None of the new elites will replace AP or ER on a player Ele. Losing Invoke + Chain is a substantial hit to Ele heroes. The only real buff to Eles, on the high end, is the armor reduction; everything else was rearranging the order of bad skills. This will help with viability and variety in the mid-level and casual demographics, however - and at this point, that should be seen as the goal. |
I leave GW for 3 years, only to come back and see you still dead on on your GW-related summations lol.
I love the update as far as utility goes, and it certainly adds flavor for PvP (maybe a couple of skills bordering on overpowered... gust?), but I really don't see it adding much in terms of damage. Tried it in Elite areas and even around capping in the shiverpeaks. Lvl 20 Rodgorts was hitting for 100 at max and as low as 60-70s. And this was just NM. Mistform is pretty cool, but it just seems like another option to ER or RoJ, an inferior one at that.
Definitely a step in the right direction tho, especially for casuals. The efficient and goal oriented crowd in high level areas? Don't see it being all that helpful.
bhavv
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Light of Cantha
Tried it in Elite areas and even around capping in the shiverpeaks. Lvl 20 Rodgorts was hitting for 100 at max and as low as 60-70s. And this was just NM. Mistform is pretty cool, but it just seems like another option to ER or RoJ, an inferior one at that.
|
With 19 fire magic, my Rodgorts is hitting level 26 rangers in HM shiverpeaks for 97 damage with EBSoH, that doesnt seem anywhere near as low as your numbers.
Reverend Dr
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by bhavv
|
Light of Cantha
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by bhavv
With or without EBSoH? Its always a good idea to include that skill anywhere in PVE if you are using ellys.
With 19 fire magic, my Rodgorts is hitting level 26 rangers in HM shiverpeaks for 97 damage with EBSoH, that doesnt seem anywhere near as low as your numbers. |
DiogoSilva
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Light of Cantha
It was without, and for the most part I was hitting in the 90s-100s. But there were a few that was 60-70s, I think it was the Azures for whatever reason.
|
Hitting for 90s-100s is what to expect from Rodgort.
bhavv
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Reverend Dr
You picked the easiest set of mobs out of the entirety of EotN. your video is not proving what you want it to prove.
|
Swingline
Many of this games bosses actually feel like... bosses. Some hurt bad because they last long enough to cause damage.
ashes
Nice synergy between Mind Burn and Earthen Shackles now 
Martin Alvito
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ashes
Nice synergy between Mind Burn and Earthen Shackles now
|
bhavv
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Swingline
Many of this games bosses actually feel like... bosses. Some hurt bad because they last long enough to cause damage.
|
Elly bosses have always hurt player team because our armour is a lot lower than monster armour. But there are so many counters and ways to adapt to each area that overcoming challenges is what makes the game fun.
People seem to expect, and want to steamroll through the whole game with just one same skill bar, and the same two skills (Invoke and Chain Lightning), and whinge and whine about any slight nerfs to those while everything else becomes much more usable and fun to play.
Fluffy Kittens
I noticed that HM is a LOT easier after this change. Everything just dies so fast. Also, all the healing from mobs is quite inefficient now due to health increase.
ashes
Having fun
Kunder
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ashes
|
One interesting thing to note is that Phoenix with EBSoH + 20 fire magic = just under 300 damage. Throw in an EBSoW and/or an echo and go to town.
Gruff
I like the update it changes things up a little and throws some different options ontop of normal builds. From a pvp perspective it makes frontlining a bit harder with more weakness and double dmg from the blind surge for example though.
Water ele was lots of fun to play with trident, I do expect Gust to see some revision though, the tanai prison not ending on fire dmg is a nice tweak also.
Would like to see dervs pulled back a bit as they still do far to much without penalty when compared to warrior skills.
Water ele was lots of fun to play with trident, I do expect Gust to see some revision though, the tanai prison not ending on fire dmg is a nice tweak also.
Would like to see dervs pulled back a bit as they still do far to much without penalty when compared to warrior skills.
Ensign
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by bhavv
Sorry, but my video proves you wrong. Please stick to commenting about PVP only.
|
It demonstrates that it was a success in that regard.
It invalidates nothing I said about the effects of this update on the edge of PvE power. The very top was pushed down, albeit very slightly. The middle was brought up substantially.
Swingline
This update gives Eles an option besides AP. Before it was run Invoke or AP, if not one of those you were deemed useless. The only reason AP is still around is because it dodged the nerf bat this time around from Anet, by not changing it directly and keeping HM armor above NM. Since SoS was targeted it's safe to assume AP could be next, maybe even the biggest problem skill of all.
Ensign
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Light of Cantha
Definitely a step in the right direction tho, especially for casuals.
|
Also Water guy, while almost certainly not ideal, has some rather good elites to use (Shatterstone), that combined with the armor change probably make that character effective enough.
In all those senses, this was a success; there are likely a lot more Ele builds that are "good enough" for hard mode now (again, probably not perfectly optimal, but definitely good enough to play through with).
On the flip side, losing Invoke + Chain hurts. Those were pretty strong heroes, strong enough to make it into builds that as far as I could tell were close to optimal; and they're completely gone now. Yeah, you can run Invoke or Chain still, but it's not enough to carry a weak line.
I'll have to experiment with Fire heroes some more; there might be something there. I'm not terribly optimistic though; I suspect Searing Flames heroes are still the best you'll get out of them given the AI constraints.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Swingline
This update gives Eles an option besides AP. Before it was run Invoke or AP, if not one of those you were deemed useless.
|
One of the things I really enjoyed about the old WiK hard mode mobs was that they didn't have the armor boost from higher levels - their hard mode casters had 60 armor, and I would take a Mind Blast or Invoke bar into those areas when I didn't feel like playing a combination deck, so to speak - and it didn't feel terrible.
Hopefully the rest of hard mode feels that way now.
Swingline
I am amazed that they keep creating skills that require being split but they won't split Invoke. Invoke was air magics bread and butter for decent damage.
@ensign: Unfortunately HM armor was not reduced to as low as most expected. I VQed Sparkfly Swamp and Searing Flames did 79 damage to casters. Obviously HM armor was not reduced to the flat base armor of player professions.
@ensign: Unfortunately HM armor was not reduced to as low as most expected. I VQed Sparkfly Swamp and Searing Flames did 79 damage to casters. Obviously HM armor was not reduced to the flat base armor of player professions.
DiogoSilva
Elemental Attunement and Elemental Lord/ Glyph of Elemental Power increase the damage of skills like Rodgort's Invocation about as much, if not more than, EBSoH (at 19 fire, it also makes its burning last 4 seconds). From 16 fire to 19 fire, Fireball/ Liquid Flame damage gets increase by 21. Phoenix by 21 and by 15.
That + EBSoH might be an interesting combo. Gonna try that out.
EDIT:
After vanquishing one area in Vabbi, it did feel that way too me.
After this update, the air magic line might be the weakest for PvE because it suffers the most from lack of good non-elite options. From what I've tested, Blinding Surge can substitute Invoke on PvE air magic builds, if on a player (not sure about heroes). It has its ups and downs. And maybe something can be done with Gust or Glimmering Mark.
That + EBSoH might be an interesting combo. Gonna try that out.
EDIT:
Quote:
| Hopefully the rest of hard mode feels that way now. |
After this update, the air magic line might be the weakest for PvE because it suffers the most from lack of good non-elite options. From what I've tested, Blinding Surge can substitute Invoke on PvE air magic builds, if on a player (not sure about heroes). It has its ups and downs. And maybe something can be done with Gust or Glimmering Mark.
Swingline
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DiogoSilva
After this update, the air magic line might be the weakest for PvE because it suffers the most from lack of good non-elite options. From what I've tested, Blinding Surge can substitute Invoke on PvE air magic builds, if on a player (not sure about heroes). It has its ups and downs. And maybe something can be done with Gust or Glimmering Mark.
|
They just need to take away the exhaustion and cap the armor pen to not go below 60 armor.
Apok
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ashes
|
qazwersder
Got to say I generally agree with Jeydra and Ensign with regards to the changes in the Ele skills. I think whilst it does offer a lot of alternative fun builds, for the full all out damage role it offers very little in the way of change apart from some niche areas. Searing flames and Assassins Promise are still going to be the way (Discounting Invoke due to its changes). I can also see Shatterstone getting some use and possibly shockwave. Any dual attunement builds do become slightly more powerful but the issue her was more that your elite was taken by energy management more than anything else.
The changes to armor levels is the bigger news here, this is what will get ele's back into play.
Changes to non elite skills shoud have a greater effect the the elites but overall I do like what they've done, it adds a bit of extra variation to the less serious players.
Edit: @Apok, I noticed this also.
The changes to armor levels is the bigger news here, this is what will get ele's back into play.
Changes to non elite skills shoud have a greater effect the the elites but overall I do like what they've done, it adds a bit of extra variation to the less serious players.
Edit: @Apok, I noticed this also.
Jeydra
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by bhavv
Im not talking about nor bothered with NM, anything works in NM. In fact in that case, Searing Flames would be better than Invoke.
Invoke is a good build, but in HM PVE it wasnt close to as good as people are pretending / hyping it up to be. Against larger mobs, both Energy Surge and Mistrust easily dealt far more raw damage than Invoke ever could, and the conditions for them were easily met in PVE (also for Cry of Frustration, Overload and Unnatural sig). |
Live in your fantasy world where Invoke sucks for all I care, but talk it down at your own peril.
I agree completely with Ensign except I think the top moved down quite a bit. Those Invoke Eles were really good, filling vital niches in teams. There's no replacement. In practical testing (prior to update) VQing Silent Surf as fast as possible, SF Eles were a full 3-4 minutes slower than Invoke Eles, in an area that takes ~19-23 minutes to finish. For hero Eles to be effective at top level now the armour changes need to be larger.
@Daesu - what are the bars you're using in your Ele team?