Update - January 5, 2012

Destrudo

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2011

Reading through this thread, Jeydra and Ensign are pretty spot on as to what the update accomplished. Hopefully part two makes the normal skills viable enough in PvE so that we have options as effective as AP and the old Invoke. I'd like to be able to play an Ele seriously without feeling that I'm dragging my team down more by running something that isn't AP or ER.

... Though, I hope said second update doesn't destabilize PvP as much as the Derv update, just to name an (admittedly extreme) example, did.

Got to say though, for a person who doesn't play the Elementalist much due to the lack of competitive builds it's nice to see new options such as Elemental Attunement, Shockwave and Shatterstone to screw around with for whenever I don't feel like playing a physical.

Ensign

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

I thought the Invoke Eles were very strong, and added a lot of value to doing speed runs - not just the up front burst damage they had, but the ability to support Fall Back comfortably.

They are definitely a loss on speed on the high end. I just don't think they're a huge deal because they really didn't provide any needed functions beyond being a hammer once your build had its bases covered. I don't think you have to rethink any strategies without those guys now; it's not like losing spirits or minions. It's just some speed.

What I mean is that beyond pure speed, there's robustness, there's stability, ease of play, etc. Air Eles were great because while they weren't terribly stable, they gave you a big burst of speed in areas where you could afford it. But I always thought of them as a trade-off, one that I liked, but am not going to get too upset over.

Wenspire

Wenspire

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2008

USA - W.Coast

HiME

Mo/

Did a quick run through Frostmaw with my normal Ranger-group setup to test out how the new change in enemy HM-AR rating (and a bit of Water/Air ele change via enemy) was going to affect my non-armor ignoring damage. Pretty much the only skill in my group's bar that was affected were the 3 SoS spirits. My clear times pretty much remained the same, with the exception that level 4 (with the Madrigors) was quicker (about 3 min).

In short, everything almost feels the same in regards to the change in enemy-AR vs increased life.


EDIT: With the AR-decrease of enemies, wouldn't crits hit much harder now? If that is the case, wouldn't an A/R crit barrager be pretty viable?

DiogoSilva

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2011

Girl

E/

I've been using Shadow Passage's from factions to experiment new builds. The foes at the entrance there are the Ministry of Purity, which are harder than your average hardmode foe. The first group has a warrior boss, the second and third usually join into one giant mob. I usually get trashed at the last one at least once with a 7-hero (well, six plus my partner which is a ranger) pvx party before I kill them all.

I've attempted with three eles with doublecasting skills, and the AI really sucks at using them. I then opted for Unsteady Ground/ Unsteady Ground/ Savannah Heat trio, but my party still got trashed. Apparently, the loldamage that some people thought it would be overpowered hardly made a difference. I wasn't using a MM nor Panic Dom, though, only ST Rit, SOS healer Rit, and Necro healer. I decided to take two eles out for the MM and mesmer, and left one with an Earth build, while I myself opted for Savannah heat + EBSoH. Gotta say, this time it was me who trashed everything. The Heat spells are back to their NM levels, and the new Unsteady Ground RECHARGES FAST. I was seeing half the mob KDed over and over (the ele hero also had Churning Earth). Plus with Ward Against melee and Eruption, and I didn't miss my Ineptitude hero one bit. And that area has a good deal of melee.

Earth magic > Illusion Magic.

EDIT: I've also tried Mist Form there, and was disappointed. Part of the blame goes to the non-elites, though. But I've enjoyed the healing, when my skills weren't recharging...

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

1. I'm reserving overall judgment until I've had a lot more time to test stuff.

2. The biggest change is not the skill updates; it's the armor-for-life trade on the monsters.

First and foremost, does anyone have the slightest clue what the actual numbers on these changes were?

Second, I'd like to say that, despite my reservations about funny balance effects with skills that care about max hp or comparative hp, my tentative judgment is that this was a good update. It goes a long way towards bringing things back towards the Prophecies era feel: Elementalists are damage dealers; Skill descriptions are a (somewhat) accurate indicator of how much damage they do; Monsters stick around awhile before dying. Now if only something could be done about the power creep that makes every other monster an instajib threat...

Third, I'd like to point out something I should have seen coming* but didn't: MoP isn't much nerfed. It might even be stronger. The hexed target takes a longer time to die, which results in more triggers. This silver lining is generalizable to all sticky hexes that usually outlasted their target under the old hp/AL system.
(*I say I should have seen this coming because I did see it coming in the context of degen, but failed to realize that it was true for a broader class of skills.)

Fourth: All martial weapons except daggers just got a buff. It'll take time to get around to examining how big an effect it's having. The same goes for non-elementalist elemental damage skills.

3. I'm reserving judgment on the new elites. I think it's too early to completely write them off as potential top-tier damage dealers.

However, I think we're going to see more innovation when people get around to looking at the non-damage elites. Among other things, we've got safer/collaterally better version of BiP and a skill that let's you do a 14/14/14/14/12+1+X/12/3 attribute split. Hopefully someone will find an interesting application for at least one of these.

Gust worries me for PvP. To a lesser extent, so does MoI.

4. Despite all the updated elites, I've got a suspicion that the real winner may end up being Searing Flames.

In a similar vein, Icy Veins also now does respectable AoE on a quick recharge. (Sorry for the pun.)

5. About Invoke+Chain. It's a definite kick in the balls, but I'm not sure it's the kick in the balls with a flaming steel-toed boot studded with used hypodermic needles that some people seem to think it is. As I understand it, the point of Invoke+Chain was to run one or two Command skills while doing decent damage. I can't help but think that a lot of things are going to compare to the old Invoke+Chain damage-wise under the new hp/AL system. Since it sounds like Chain is still usable as long as it's the only exhaustion spell, why not use MoM to run something like Rodgort's+Chain and spec 12 Command? You could even throw in crazy stuff like Deep Freeze or wards. Might also add Fireball in addition to or instead of Chain.

Da Kenster

Da Kenster

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Feb 2006

A shoebox

The Boat Crew

W/E

^A member posted some numbers in the thread here (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/h...t10500604.html) regarding the supposed changes. I cannot personally confirm the veracity though.

Edit:
On Topic: I am enjoying experimenting with new ele builds with a focus on the new and improved elites. I think the second update will be interesting and look forward to seeing how I can fool around with my heroes some more.

Hine

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Nov 2011

Me/Rt

Hello

I tested it out in RA and tbh it's just a mess

Actually no matter the caster class I'm playing, I see no use to have a melee in my group anymore. Any melee get perma blind/weakned and can't spike anything while the monk waste his mana trying to get rid of condition that respawn every 2sec.

Kunder

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon View Post
First and foremost, does anyone have the slightest clue what the actual numbers on these changes were?
From what I can tell on a small random sample of high level enemies, no specific algorithm was used. Enemies just got armor reduced a lot. Humans all have standard lvl 20 armor and monstrous stuff has at most around +5-10 armor on top of that (not counting specific races that have +20 vs an element or -20 vs an element, the +5-10 is global for all types). This applies to both NM and HM, meaning armor affected damage is stronger now even in NM areas. In every case I have checked HM and NM are both the same (lower) values now, which is nice that you sells always hit the same in both modes.

The +health I'm not sure about, its obviously really hard to track without being the only one in the party. Things definitely die a lot faster for me though, even with builds that are 50/50 split on armor ignoring vs armor respecting damage.

Quote:
However, I think we're going to see more innovation when people get around to looking at the non-damage elites. Among other things, we've got safer/collaterally better version of BiP and a skill that let's you do a 14/14/14/14/12+1+X/12/3 attribute split. Hopefully someone will find an interesting application for at least one of these.
Problem, at least for PvE, is that Eles still have generally weak non-elites. The only skills I would consider "good" non-elites are Liquid Flame, Rodgort's Invocation, and Chain Lightning. Master of Magic looks so delicious but just isn't there until non-elites get some changes.

Quote:
4. Despite all the updated elites, I've got a suspicion that the real winner may end up being Searing Flames.

In a similar vein, Icy Veins also now does respectable AoE on a quick recharge. (Sorry for the pun.)
Yeah, this is true. New HM armor levels are often even lower than previous NM armor levels used to be. Something like 4x SF 1x IV 1x ToF 1x healer is the new steamroll build. The DoA SCers QQing about rit nerfs will get over it when they see SF hitting for something like 170 damage after EBSoH and lightbringer.

Ensign

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon View Post
Since it sounds like Chain is still usable as long as it's the only exhaustion spell, why not use MoM to run something like Rodgort's+Chain and spec 12 Command? You could even throw in crazy stuff like Deep Freeze or wards. Might also add Fireball in addition to or instead of Chain.
That's...actually a really good idea. I basically blew off MoM for PvE because on a player, 3 PvE skills + GLE + MoM makes it really hard to make use of the MoM. But on a hero, where none of that matters, hell, it has potential.

It's just a question of how much room you have for non-elites after fixing your energy and stapling Fall Back to your bar...

xDusT II

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2006

Melbourne

for a direct damage replacement hero, i'm thinking dual attunements, glyph of elemental power and rodgorts, fireball + some other fire direct damage spells (liquid flame, meteor, glyph sac met shower, maybe even lava arrows at the high spec). shuold be able to still spec for fall back.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

@Ensign - lucky you, because I'm crying /wrist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon View Post
5. About Invoke+Chain. It's a definite kick in the balls, but I'm not sure it's the kick in the balls with a flaming steel-toed boot studded with used hypodermic needles that some people seem to think it is. As I understand it, the point of Invoke+Chain was to run one or two Command skills while doing decent damage. I can't help but think that a lot of things are going to compare to the old Invoke+Chain damage-wise under the new hp/AL system. Since it sounds like Chain is still usable as long as it's the only exhaustion spell, why not use MoM to run something like Rodgort's+Chain and spec 12 Command? You could even throw in crazy stuff like Deep Freeze or wards. Might also add Fireball in addition to or instead of Chain.
What spells are you going to put there, other than Rodgort's + Chain? We can make a list:

Fireball
Liquid Flame
Rodgort's Invocation
Chain Lightning
Meteor
?

Aside from Chain Lightning, all these spells are in Fire Magic, whereupon you might as well run 16 Fire with Elemental Attunement, fixing your energy problems along with it + dealing more damage too.

I don't like the idea. MoM in PvP, perhaps, but I'm not seeing much potential in PvE.

EDIT: Basically what xDust said. The only problem with that is, Fire is ineffective in many areas of the game (viz. Destroyers), so they're not general-purpose heroes at best.

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

Jeydra I thought you ran AP + Chain Lightning in PVE, so why is a slight nerf to invoke and chain such a huge loss to you?

Regarding speed runs, mes nec and rit hero teams were always faster than invoke ellys, it may be a sad truth for many to accept, but it always was the case.

Elly heroes are still valid, and to me far more valid now with the skill update. I saw someone else above mentioning using fire and earth AoEs which was not working well for them .... Where was their snares? If you simply add a Shatterstone, Ice Spikes and Deep Freeze elly to your group, AoEs will suddenly become incredibly effective in HM.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

Because I ran hero Invoke Eles, obviously. The hit to Chain Lightning did not affect the AP Air template, which is as powerful as ever.

And no, Mes Nec Rit hero teams were NOT faster than Invoke Eles. I know, because I hold the records. Get your facts right.

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

Simply drop either invoke and chain on your heroes then, add something else in its place and lose maybe 5-10 minutes to your speed runs, big deal!

And what record speed clear time do you hold with invoke / chain lightning heroes? Id like to see.

FYI Ive never once stated that invoke sucks in PVE, Ive stated that neither you nor anyone else would notice anything different with alternative builds on your heroes. I also never claimed that my hero build is 'the best hero build' like you annoyingly keep thinking that you and your builds are, it was nothing more than a quick <5 min test of the new skills. I have no reason to prove anything to you, my legenadry vanq is already done without requiring any elemental damage on my team.

You actually quoted me having said that Invoke is good, but concluded that I said it sucks, I dont see how you managed to assume that based on anything I have said.

For hgh end PVE, I would still use exactly 0 ellys, and myself as an Emo prot, I never claimed the build that I posted was for high end. If youre high end PVE hero team only used a single invoke elly, then this was nowhere near the bread and butter of your group - You will have no problems at all adapting to the nerf.

Swingline

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

Somewhere far away from you

The Mirror of Reason[SNOW]

W/

I like the ideas flying around on this thread but from testing it out Searing Flames + Cracked Armor is king king now. Starburst has amazing potential to but I have not tested it out yet.

For Starburst I am thinking of E/Me with Armor of Earth, Stone Striker and Mantra of Earth. Don't forget the +15 earth insignia and Cracked Armor

@Jeydra, Stop showing off. Your record time had almost no competition because the prize was crappy.

Swingline

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

Somewhere far away from you

The Mirror of Reason[SNOW]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv View Post
searing flames doesnt work on destroyers
Switch to another fire magic elite with this

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swingline View Post
Switch to another fire magic elite with this
I always knew about that, but my nooby brain told me to run UG + Churning Earth instead, and I filled the HM EOTN mission book several times with ease well before we had 7 heroes.

I thought that if the winter spirit died, the whole team would be screwed and chose not to rely on it. I actually also used a Mirror of Ice hero elly too against destroyers, but you know that no one used to use MOI or Water magic in PVE unless they are noobs, Invoke and Chain lightning is the only thing that apparantly worked.

I'll try out some WoC mobs later today. Ive never done WoC before so it will be new to me.

Kaida the Heartless

Kaida the Heartless

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2006

N/

Nine pages and Searing Flames has been mentioned approximately 5 times. I figured people would be back on it a bit quicker (then again, I've already shown affinity for that skill previously).

Jeydra and Ensign are spot on. For everything (I didn't expect much less, tbh).

The Invoke/Chain changes suck, even though I never really slotted any. I dislike that the option has largely been removed. I'd like to slot Glimmering Mark in place, but it's got that icky, icky clause tacked onto the end of it.

I think the non-elite changes will finally slide the Ele into a solid position in (Hero) parties. I'd like a class I can go to when I want to sacrifice Utility in favor of raw damage.

Fluffy Kittens

Guest

Join Date: Dec 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post
Because I ran hero Invoke Eles, obviously. The hit to Chain Lightning did not affect the AP Air template, which is as powerful as ever.

And no, Mes Nec Rit hero teams were NOT faster than Invoke Eles. I know, because I hold the records. Get your facts right.
For me, mes nec and rit heroes were ALWAYS faster than invoke eles. I tried both in lots of places and invokes never seemed as efficient as mes nec rit.
That's a fact sir

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

AP was the most ridiculous way I've ever seen ellys played. You devote a whole skill bar to just 2 elementalist skills (chain lightning and lightning orb), only actually use chain lightning, and claim that this is the best 'elementalist' skill bar when it uses just two offensive elly skills and relies on several PVE skills plus an assassin elite.

If its so good, then give your elly heroes AP + Chain Lightning instead of Invoke + Chain, and thats your minor invoke nerf sorted out.

I dont subscribe to this method of logic. Compare elementalist options now with with elly elites and skills to the same thing before, they are a huge improvement to having only two options as a player elly - ER or AP, or for heroes only having Invoke as an option.

Gill Halendt

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

Every recent thread in the last few months rapidly turns into Elementalists vs Mesmers, with some random example supplied with equally random "record times" to support one or the other. It's getting boring...

Quite frankly, record or not, I don't think Elemental Damage was that efficient before, or it wouldn't have required such an extensive and game-changing update.

Swingline

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

Somewhere far away from you

The Mirror of Reason[SNOW]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv View Post
I always knew about that, but my nooby brain told me to run UG + Churning Earth instead, and I filled the HM EOTN mission book several times with ease well before we had 7 heroes.

I thought that if the winter spirit died, the whole team would be screwed and chose not to rely on it. I actually also used a Mirror of Ice hero elly too against destroyers, but you know that no one used to use MOI or Water magic in PVE unless they are noobs, Invoke and Chain lightning is the only thing that apparantly worked.

I'll try out some WoC mobs later today. Ive never done WoC before so it will be new to me.
Invoke was the eles equivalent to discord except instead of being armor ignoring it had a 3 hit AoE component with 25% armor pen and didn't require a prerequisite to deal its damage. When compared to earth magic Invoke just stacked up better but HM can be done with earth magic, especially against destroyers. Destroyers have the same amount of armor against earth that they do with lightning damage, the only difference is Invoke penetrated one fourth of their armor. UG, like invoke, is the best damage elite earth had to offer but up against a pre HM update Destroyer of Bones it did 14 damage a tick with a total of 70 damage every 15 seconds. Invoke dealt 54 every 6 seconds. UG can deal more but it has to hit a balled group of mobs.

The argument of Invoke vs. Searing Flames is ludicrous. Both are bar compression and each have their own qualities. The only reason Invoke was good was because of imbalances not in the skill but in the game. No mobs in game have an innate defense specifically targeted for lightning damage like fire, which is a bigger game flaw than you think because of air magics armor pen qualities.

I thought Invoke a little too power though, I used it for a year on my eles hero team once the 7 hero update went live but I don't think nerfing it with exhaustion was the way to do it. A better alternative would be to bring it down to Chains damage but remove exhaustion from Invoke. Invoke was fun because it was a good skill you could use often. If Invoke or SoS are not allowed to exist as they once were then why the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO is shadow form still around?

Just having -5 damage on Invoke and the 5 exhaustion on its partner in crime would have been perfect.

cosyfiep

cosyfiep

are we there yet?

Join Date: Dec 2005

in a land far far away

guild? I am supposed to have a guild?

Rt/

tried it out for a bit today....So-suk-e was happy that he didnt ...well --that he wasnt so bad as he used to be---though since I had always had an ele and a sos rit in my groups I didnt see much difference in the time it took to take groups down...

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

TBH I always thought that the Invoke and Chain lightning damage nerfs from 122 + 106 to 95 + 90 hurt them more than the exhaustion nerf does.

If I remember correctly, these two skills always used to cause 10 exhaustion, then they caused none with enchants, and now they cause 5 each.

Everyone of these changes was made due to the abuse of these skills in PVP, and had nothing to do with them in PVE, I simply dont get why they were never split.

If the constant changing of these skills harm PVE as much as people think it does, then why havnt the live team noticed this yet and given them a split?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swingline View Post
If Invoke or SoS are not allowed to exist as they once were then why the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO is shadow form still around?
Well the points to consider are:

- Invoke and Chain lighting changes over the years were 100% based on PVP, not PVE.

- SoS isnt ruined, its damage is just slightly reduced and the skill remains useful

- Shadow form isnt used in PVP, so Anet dont care about it so much, even though it has been nerfed a few times, it still remains effective, as will SoS.

The current Invoke nerf hurts elly heroes only, not players. There are so many equally, and arguably more effective ways of running heroes that this point simply has no significance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swingline View Post
No mobs in game have an innate defense specifically targeted for lightning damage like fire, which is a bigger game flaw than you think because of air magics armor pen qualities.
I also dont understand this. What is the point in there being so many mobs that have higher defense vs fire and burning than any other element? Most people made elementalists because they enjoy nuking, not that nuking was ever actually very valid in PVE.

The only fire build that was effective in PVE prior to this update was Searing Flames introduced in NF, and then in the next expansion Anet decided to completely kill this skill altogether with destroyers being immune to burning. HM always nullified any effectiveness of ellys due to mobs having too much elemental armour and this update is meant to be addressing that.

Invoke was good only because everything else that ellys had sucked in HM. This was the one valid build that pre update ellys could use in HM without relying on their secondary profession, just like the Imbagon build for Paragons. Anet noticed this, and thats why we got this update.

The Invoke and Chain Lightning nerf was again fully based on PVP not PVE, still very surprising that the live team nor Anet have never thought to simply split the skills.

Outerworld

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2010

UK

Gil Worz Is Srs [Bsns]

W/

Thunderclap could be useful for when I use FD. Nothing else really stands out to me though.

Mintha Syl

Mintha Syl

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv View Post
If I remember correctly, these two skills always used to cause 10 exhaustion, then they caused none with enchants, and now they cause 5 each.
correct

Quote:
Everyone of these changes was made due to the abuse of these skills in PVP, and had nothing to do with them in PVE, I simply dont get why they were never split.
lazy? Otherwise, it doesn't make sense.


Ok just tried new HM and at the same time churning earth and unsteady ground better usability. I went and see good ol'Kunvie as I do it often and it's also zbounty so...
Counting I changed nothing in my heroes builds (so mostly armor ignoring stuff safe for the earth ele and myself ranger with pet) I found the melee foes dying much faster and being much less harmful (well maybe cause of all that kd :P) and most important the healers manage to do less, I used to remember outcast lasting a bit cause of that but I've seen nothing like that now.
But ele foes...in particular saltspray dragons....they really were much more of a pain. Before they used to insta die at least, now they don't, and counting they use Ride the lightning...yeah, it hurts much more than before, as expected.

Now I really regret not completing desolaztion vqs before this update xD Sandstorm crags, yay!

Relyk

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Feb 2008

W/

Invoke eles are glass cannons with little utility. I obviously don't use them as efficiently as Jeydra and therefore will say that they tend to be inferior to other options available. The update does give me a reason to use Air Magic eles since they hit much harder than they did before.

Now can we all ignore this talk about skill changes and new potential builds and run around happily spamming Searing Flames?

Swingline

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

Somewhere far away from you

The Mirror of Reason[SNOW]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv View Post
- Invoke and Chain lighting changes over the years were 100% based on PVP, not PVE.
This update was PvE oriented and I am sure Anet knew of Invokes involvement in PvE hero setups. Invoke was never a problem in PvP after it's damage was nerfed down to 95. People just bitched because they failed to shield swap after that. Air magic has always been the choice of damage in PvP because of its intended goal, which is to deal single target damage just as water magics goal is to snare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv View Post
- SoS isnt ruined, its damage is just slightly reduced and the skill remains useful
The trick is to not ruin a skill but balance it accordingly. SF is imbalanced and should be dealt with in such a manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv View Post
- Shadow form isnt used in PVP, so Anet dont care about it so much, even though it has been nerfed a few times, it still remains effective, as will SoS.
People have quit the game because pugs only get together for SF speed clears. To even have a shot at doing a dungeon or elite area you need with a human group you have to wait weeks for the right zb to pop up. See a problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv View Post
The current Invoke nerf hurts elly heroes only, not players. There are so many equally, and arguably more effective ways of running heroes that this point simply has no significance.
Didn't you just say people should run what they want to? This nerf took some peoples favorite build away.

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swingline View Post
Didn't you just say people should run what they want to? This nerf took some peoples favorite build away.
Yes but people arguing that Invoke was the only top tier elly build, and anything else being 'mid tier' annoys me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swingline View Post
This update was PvE oriented and I am sure Anet knew of Invokes involvement in PvE hero setups.
I could say the same thing about Shield Guardian. Neither Anet, nor the people defending Invoke as the top tier elly build seemed to have known nor understood anything about how good that skill was when used on a E/Mo prot - either on the players or on a heroes bar.

I cant believe that Anet nor the live team understand a single thing about PVE balance in GW, otherwise these kind of updates would have happened many years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swingline View Post
People have quit the game because pugs only get together for SF speed clears. To even have a shot at doing a dungeon or elite area you need with a human group you have to wait weeks for the right zb to pop up. See a problem?
OFC i see the problem. I whined about it back when it was the same thing with Ursan. but now that I have 7 hero teams I really dont care. The only problem regarding things like this is Anets incompetence at balancing the skills for PVE.

After playing with the updated skills for a couple of days, I can clearly tell that ellys are still weaker than the armour ignoring classes. However they have become usable at least without having to rely heavily on their secondary professions.

Outerworld

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2010

UK

Gil Worz Is Srs [Bsns]

W/

Shield guardian was a non-essential skill on an ER (i.e. easy to replace). Invoke and Chain however, were two major skills in the build, neither of which are exactly replaceable. So no, it isn't the same thing.

Coast

Coast

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

Belgium

Whats Going On [sup]

Mo/

Invoke obviously was a problem in pvp, even became better after its nerf because now u could spike even faster.

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Outerworld View Post
Shield guardian was a non-essential skill on an ER (i.e. easy to replace). Invoke and Chain however, were two major skills in the build, neither of which are exactly replaceable. So no, it isn't the same thing.
I dont think you understood what 'same thing' meant in that context.

It is the same thing that Anet have no clue about skill use in PVE when changing certain skills. If they did then Invoke and Chain lightning would have been split by now, and so would have Shield Guardian. Elementalists, Rangers and Paragons would also have been updated years ago if Anet had any understanding of PVE. Also Shadow form wouldnt still exist.

Every Invoke and Chain lightning change that has ever been made was 100% based on the use of these skills in PVP, not in PVE. And they were never simply split without any good reason for why they shouldnt have been.

I dont see how anyone elses complaints about this is anymore valid than the typical complaints any time a skill nerf affects PVE, with most peoples replies normally being 'learn to adapt'.

Shield Guardian was an essential skill in my build, it was my pre nerf party heal and helped me to breeze through elite areas. Now I have to spec a monk with Healing Burst instead which runs out of energy too fast. There is nothing more valid about whining about the Invoke and Chain Lightning nerfs than any other skill that other players relied on before they got nerfed in PVE due to them being changed for PVP and not using a simple skill split.

Rasudido

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Dec 2009

The update is lacking you can really notice how it was half an update; while some new interesting tools have been given the lack of any good non elite skills is what keeps anything from being interesting.

here are some results that I gathered from testing in HM with some of the skills (done so in WoC areas not wussy areas in HM that werent even a challenge to start with):

Thunderclap- a surprisingly effective support spell, its most important aspect is the long application of cracked armor on a small AoE scale. To be trully useful it would've had to hit more than adjacent range IMO but i do guess that dual status + interrupt is powerful. What really hampers this spell down is the lack of any good Air Magic skills in PvE that mantain pressure other than Chain Lightning.

Chain Lightning- an utter loss; this was the only skill (coupled with Chain Lightning) that made elementalists somewhat viable as damage dealers in HM. Since you cant reasonably use them both at the same time, and you lack any decent non elite skills to compensate it just doesnt work. I dont know why exhaustion was changed from conditional, at least not in PvE.

Glimmering Mark- I had somewhat some success with this skill with arcane echo, using it as a Spiteful Spirit of sorts that deals steady damage rather than conditional. Can work but still a bit on the slow side (thanks to the HP buff) where you usually have to stack 3 glimmering marks on 3 different adjacent targets and hope they don't scatter to get the ball rolling. Def. interresting with EBSoH.

Mind Burn- Seemed Awesome at first decent damage with long burn application but HM most caster classes had more energy than me thanks to multiple exhaustion. Stick to Searing Flames. The update seemed to hurt me more than help me since mobs full of Eles with mind burn just nuke everything now (try Tahnnakai Temple HM to see what thats about).

Star Burst- awesome boost, you can reasonably make a build similar to DWG bombing except using star burst and PBAoE Fire skills, same issue about how you tend to be squishy while at it but you can sort off mitigate that with earth magic. Same as Mind Burn, someone was not paying attention to rebalance monsters in PVE for this update (as if Am Fah elementalist couldnt kill me before now they can insta wipe my party)

Double Dragon and other dual cast skills- more of a PVP toy if anything, im sure one can have fun with this but if you want to run at something and hit damage around you just use Star Burst.

Shatterstone- another decent update which is severely hampered by the lack of any useful non elites. While Shatterstone will go a long way to make water Eles more viable in PvE, a single elite cant cover a whole bar...


----

It has been said in this thread before and after testing I do agree:

1. Invoke Lightning change is a great loss and will continue to be until non elites are revised and rolled in so the support air elites are good.

2. non elite option suck. Fire magic being the clear winner in this update not because of the interresting skill changes it got, but because it has some half decent non elites for PvE. Chain Lightning does not cover the rest of Air, Obsidian Flame got better but still doesnt cut it 100%, water had nothing decent.

Until the rest of the update rolls in and changes to non elites are made Eles have gained very little aside from a few interresting but def. not optimal builds.

Coast

Coast

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

Belgium

Whats Going On [sup]

Mo/

Invoke lighting:
Elite Spell. Target foe and up to two other foes near your target are struck for 10...74...90 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

Chain Lighting:
Spell. Target foe and up to two other foes near your target are struck for 10...70...85 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

Why don't they just make em like:

Invoke Lighting:
Spell. Target foe and all foes near your target are struck for 10...74...90 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

Chain Lighting:
Spell. Target foe and all foes near your target are struck for 10...70...85 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

This way they still always cause exhaustion while not creating problems for pvp (don't ball up like headless chickens) and at the same time these skills become better again in pve.
There wouldn't be a need for a pvp-pve split neither.

Swingline

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

Somewhere far away from you

The Mirror of Reason[SNOW]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coast View Post
Invoke obviously was a problem in pvp, even became better after its nerf because now u could spike even faster.
Then the skill should have been split.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coast View Post
Invoke lighting:
Elite Spell. Target foe and up to two other foes near your target are struck for 10...74...90 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

Chain Lighting:
Spell. Target foe and up to two other foes near your target are struck for 10...70...85 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

Why don't they just make em like:

Invoke Lighting:
Spell. Target foe and all foes near your target are struck for 10...74...90 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

Chain Lighting:
Spell. Target foe and all foes near your target are struck for 10...70...85 lightning damage. This spell has 25% armor penetration.

This way they still always cause exhaustion while not creating problems for pvp (don't ball up like headless chickens) and at the same time these skills become better again in pve.
There wouldn't be a need for a pvp-pve split neither.
Thats blurring the lines between fire and air magic.


SF doing 36 damage against margonite dervs still >.>

Laylat

Laylat

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/

Shockwave's Cracked Armour on nearby foes triggers before the damage, which is nice. What I don't get is why the + Earth damage isn't armour ignoring. I was sure that any skill description with a +(value) was armour ignoring.

Example:
Shockwave at adjacent vs 60AR = 51+51+51; nearby = 51+51; area = 51
Shockwave at adjacent vs 80AR = 51+51+51; nearby = 51+51; area = 36
Shockwave at adjacent vs 100AR = 36+36+36; nearby = 36+36; area = 26

Swingline

Swingline

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2010

Somewhere far away from you

The Mirror of Reason[SNOW]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laylat View Post
Shockwave's Cracked Armour on nearby foes triggers before the damage, which is nice. What I don't get is why the + Earth damage isn't armour ignoring. I was sure that any skill description with a +(value) was armour ignoring.
Only for actual attack skills.

Ensign

Ensign

Just Plain Fluffy

Join Date: Dec 2004

Berkeley, CA

Idiot Savants

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post
@Ensign - lucky you, because I'm crying /wrist
I probably don't care all that much because I've largely retired my Ele at this point, and have switched almost entirely to playing Warrior in PvE.

While I liked the Air Ele heroes a *lot* when playing my Ele, I was never impressed by them at all when playing Warrior; the second Necro and another Mesmer feel way better there.

I do think it's worth pointing out that I've consistently cleared Hard Mode content faster with an Ele + Ele heroes than with a Warrior + Necro/Mesmer; even Ele + Necro/Mesmer heroes is faster than Warrior + Necro/Mesmer.

I really have no clue what to make of that observation.

Outerworld

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2010

UK

Gil Worz Is Srs [Bsns]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by bhavv View Post
I dont think you understood what 'same thing' meant in that context.

It is the same thing that Anet have no clue about skill use in PVE when changing certain skills. If they did then Invoke and Chain lightning would have been split by now, and so would have Shield Guardian. Elementalists, Rangers and Paragons would also have been updated years ago if Anet had any understanding of PVE. Also Shadow form wouldnt still exist.

Every Invoke and Chain lightning change that has ever been made was 100% based on the use of these skills in PVP, not in PVE. And they were never simply split without any good reason for why they shouldnt have been.

I dont see how anyone elses complaints about this is anymore valid than the typical complaints any time a skill nerf affects PVE, with most peoples replies normally being 'learn to adapt'.

Shield Guardian was an essential skill in my build, it was my pre nerf party heal and helped me to breeze through elite areas. Now I have to spec a monk with Healing Burst instead which runs out of energy too fast. There is nothing more valid about whining about the Invoke and Chain Lightning nerfs than any other skill that other players relied on before they got nerfed in PVE due to them being changed for PVP and not using a simple skill split.
Shield Guardian was never essential, ER worked fine with or without it. An Invoke build cannot work without the titular skill for obvious reasons, hence the comparison you tried to make isn't exactly accurate. I do agree with you that those skills should have been split however.

bhavv

bhavv

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2006

Invoke + Chain Lightning does still work for the player though on with the condition of 'learn to adapt' applied to it (dont spam it as much).

Shield Guardian as a skill was destroyed entirely. ER works with any skills, but the old version of Shield guardian was massively useful for me and plenty of people using E/mos, either themselves or on a hero.

Invoke and Chain lightning are still usable, other skills such as Shield Guardian are not. Even monks dont use the new version of Shield Guardian in PVE, it isnt a valid skill choice for anyone, but its previous form was.

Whether it was essential or not is based on your personal opionion. For me full party heals are 100% essential in high end PVE, and previously Shield Guardian was a way to get this onto an ER Prot build. With that skill gone I now need to add more party wide healing elsewhere on my group setup to compensate, which means is going from an E/Mo prot and N/Rt healer to an E/Mo prot and Healing Burst Monk (or a UA prot and mimicry healing burst backline). Healing burst is a great heal to fit the requirement, but monk energy management is abysmally useless for relying on hero AI to heal in high end PVE, just as much as elementalists used to be for damage.

All these changes, and ones before them continue to prove that PVE is merely an afterthought for Anet. They will only consider making improvements based around PVE several years after people have been raging on about them, and they lack the competence to make a decent, fun and balanced PVE game.