Ask, and you shall receive ...
The last balance update seriously hurt the original Invoke Ele template; this topic documents attempts to replace it. The basic build was this:
Quote:
16 Air | 9 Command | 10 Energy StorageReplacing the Invoke Ele
Jeydra
Shock Arrow | Lightning Orb | Invoke Lightning | Chain Lightning | Aura of Restoration | Air Attunement | Glyph of Lesser Energy | "Fall Back!"
1. Ability to spec 9 points or more into a second attribute, e.g. Command Shouts.
2. Ability to bring heavy damage on demand to a single target.
3. Ability to output AoE damage as well.
Builds and variants tried so far:
Do nothing; keep original bar - tried this out, the hero runs out of energy. Does not work.
Keep Invoke Lightning, ditch Chain Lightning - tried this out, hero still runs out of energy. He runs out of energy slower, but run out he will. Does not work.
Keep Chain Lightning, ditch Invoke Lightning - tried this out, not only does the hero still run out of energy there aren't many good skills in Air Magic to compensate. Does not work.
Switch primary element to Fire and use Elemental Attunement - feels like the most effective replacement right now. The main build is 16 Fire, 10 Energy Storage, 9 Command @ Immolate + Fireball + Liquid Flame + Rodgort's Invocation + Fire Attunement + Elemental Attunement + Glyph of Lesser Energy + "Fall Back!". It sucks to have to use GoLE with dual attunements but the hero has the tendency to cast Rodgort's without both attunements up, and once that happens he can't dig himself out of the energy hole (I tried Glowing Gaze + Glyph of Elemental Power and he ran out of energy). It's possible this build can be improved but I'm not sure.
The big drawback with this is of course there are plenty of areas where monsters have absurd armour vs. Fire.
Switch primary element to Fire and use Searing Flames - Searing Flames sucks and cannot provide damage on demand.
Switch primary element to Earth - this build never got off development. Asking Earthquake and Dragon's Stomp to replace Invoke Lighting is like asking Koss to gather aggro like EFGJack. Single-target damage isn't spectacular either and mostly relies on projectiles, while DoTAoE isn't damage on demand and requires some balling.
Switch primary element to Water - not enough useful skills in Water to even try. If Shatterstone had 4s cooldown + 1s cast + detonated on death it might be able to carry the entire Water line on its back, but no, it does not.
Use Death Magic - there aren't many good non-minion skills in Death Magic. There's Deathly Swarm, Discord and Putrid Bile; that's all. That does mean there's plenty of room for something else, but also means there's not much in the way of damage. Deathly Swarm is NOT Invoke Lightning; in fact it is very much worse. Putrid Bile isn't very good either, but then it's a non-elite so can't complain. Discord being conditional is a big strike against it as well because it forces me to AP (and even then the AI doesn't cast it on recharge, and it isn't AoE). Other skills like Vile Miasma tend to tempt the AI into casting them instead of Discord, even if the conditions are met.
If all the monsters who heavily resist Fire left bodies, it'd be possible to patch up the Death Magic bar with Animate spells and only use them when the Fire Eles aren't viable, but no, things like Ruby Djinn exist.
Use Icy Veins - if Death Magic and its array of damaging spells does not work, what good is Icy Veins, Signet of Sorrow and Angorodon's Gaze? Especially since the secondary profession is locked to Paragon with considerable spec in Command.
Use Curses - there're a few direct damage Curses spells, but they are all plagued by long recharge. Damage on demand isn't available.
Use Rangers - always an option, with Splinter Weapon they even get a bit of AoE damage, but they aren't really capable of bringing "Fall Back!" since Expertise doesn't work on shouts.
Use Mesmers - only have two Mesmers and both are already occupied; besides they can't use "Fall Back!" well.
****
That's all the Invoke replacements I've tried or thought of in a nutshell. A universal replacement to Invoke does not seem to exist; certainly of the four elements, Air is dead, Fire and Water are heavily resisted in certain areas and Earth doesn't have enough good skills to make a build of (not to mention I think there are monsters that heavily resist Earth, although I can't think of any off the top of my head), which means armour-ignoring damage is going to have to take precedence. If some mixed solution exists, it will have to rely on stuff like Stone Striker and Winter, both of which are terrible + require spec into an otherwise useless attribute line.
If anyone has an idea or (even better) a working replacement, please share.
3.142
Master of magic!!!1111 Take a few useful skills from everywhere.
Flawless.
Flawless.
Jeydra
Thought about that. The problem is you can't get good skills from elsewhere. Without Invoke Lightning, Air is left with only Chain Lightning (and Lightning Orb I suppose). Earth and Water are both quite barren. Most your spells are going to come from Fire, and if you're going down that path why not just use Elemental Attunement?
Swingline
I think your just gonna have to live with the fact there is no replacement for invoke until the next ele update comes through. We will have to wait and see what changes Anet will make.
Water doesnt have enough damage.
The big hitting earth spells have big drawbacks.
Air's loss of Invoke and Chain to unconditional exhaustion hurt the Air Magic line enough to make it almost nonviable for PvE.
Fire is your best candidate but is useless against Titans and Destroyers unless you convert it. IDK why you hate Searing Flames, its incredibly good except against Destroyers which are in one small part of the game. It becomes insanely good if you only use it with GG, heroes will spam it more.
I also tried MoM as well. I found all the spells I wanted to use came with RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing Exhaustion. :/
Water doesnt have enough damage.
The big hitting earth spells have big drawbacks.
Air's loss of Invoke and Chain to unconditional exhaustion hurt the Air Magic line enough to make it almost nonviable for PvE.
Fire is your best candidate but is useless against Titans and Destroyers unless you convert it. IDK why you hate Searing Flames, its incredibly good except against Destroyers which are in one small part of the game. It becomes insanely good if you only use it with GG, heroes will spam it more.
I also tried MoM as well. I found all the spells I wanted to use came with RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing Exhaustion. :/
Olle
Dervish?
I havent tried it but it seems many people are using it.
(and ofcourse a monk?)
I havent tried it but it seems many people are using it.
(and ofcourse a monk?)
3.142
It's probably safe to disregard me as an idiot when it comes to ele builds but, keeping in mind everything there is either In the Area or Nearby range, what about this.
OglmwwIcCrwLsJPID1Rvop9N2x0CxK
Braces self to feel dumb.
OglmwwIcCrwLsJPID1Rvop9N2x0CxK
Braces self to feel dumb.
Xsiriss
Personally I find running this on a derv to be effective.
OgajowpIrSQXHRWgOXcfYX2CibA
Kinda weird but also very fun if you run it as a human. Heroes cope well enough.
OgajowpIrSQXHRWgOXcfYX2CibA
Kinda weird but also very fun if you run it as a human. Heroes cope well enough.
AndrewSX
I was going to ask this too.
Only interesting thing i've found so far is replacing invoke with gust (in the old Invoke build) and Searingflames with Double Dragon (in the standard searingflames build, but loosing rogdort too). If you are a physical player, those 2 works quite good...but aren't even close to achieve what old invoke did. Also, if you aren't a meele becomes almost useless.
Only interesting thing i've found so far is replacing invoke with gust (in the old Invoke build) and Searingflames with Double Dragon (in the standard searingflames build, but loosing rogdort too). If you are a physical player, those 2 works quite good...but aren't even close to achieve what old invoke did. Also, if you aren't a meele becomes almost useless.
SongOf
Armor penetration from Air just isn't that impressive anymore with the new HM changes. Any high damage skill is viable now, and while Air has versatility, conditions are such a waste of time in PVE (exception being clever Fevered/Frag builds which I find fun). Having said that Fire excels because of the higher damage cap and abundance of aoe.
Regarding the fire build, drop Rodgorts and Gole, problem solved. Crap like 127dmg from Rodgort's vs 119dmg from Fireball is trivial, but 25e vs 10e on 7-8 sec recharges is not. As for earth and water, a few semi good elites but not enough normal spells that shine in PVE.
The popular argument that there are a lot more Fire resistant enemies is plain stupid. You wouldn't bring Air spells against Lightning resistant enemies, so why would you do the same with Fire?
The underlying problem is players are lazy forcing the same ele builds all the damn time. Take 5 seconds to load a different build if it means doing 1.5x more damage for the next 25mins.
Bottom line is run Fire through first 75% of campaigns, then remaining 25% of campaign (vs. Destroyers and Titans+) switch to anything else. Geography and quest text are dead giveaways to stop bringing Fire.
Regarding the fire build, drop Rodgorts and Gole, problem solved. Crap like 127dmg from Rodgort's vs 119dmg from Fireball is trivial, but 25e vs 10e on 7-8 sec recharges is not. As for earth and water, a few semi good elites but not enough normal spells that shine in PVE.
The popular argument that there are a lot more Fire resistant enemies is plain stupid. You wouldn't bring Air spells against Lightning resistant enemies, so why would you do the same with Fire?
The underlying problem is players are lazy forcing the same ele builds all the damn time. Take 5 seconds to load a different build if it means doing 1.5x more damage for the next 25mins.
Bottom line is run Fire through first 75% of campaigns, then remaining 25% of campaign (vs. Destroyers and Titans+) switch to anything else. Geography and quest text are dead giveaways to stop bringing Fire.
loopysnoopy
These are what I've been using since invoke got mugged and hit with the nerf bat
Build codes as follows
E/ME: OgVDEIysSTA6QgDLgNDID0ChDA
E/P:OgljgwMpZS7Y6QgDLgNDID0ChDA
Sadly not AoE but does pump out some good damage energy is never an issue
My hero is rune with a sup Air on head and minor E-storage on gloves
I'm thinking the build I use can be tweaked a lot more and yup I know there's two sources of cracked armor but that helps alot
Build codes as follows
E/ME: OgVDEIysSTA6QgDLgNDID0ChDA
E/P:OgljgwMpZS7Y6QgDLgNDID0ChDA
Sadly not AoE but does pump out some good damage energy is never an issue
My hero is rune with a sup Air on head and minor E-storage on gloves
I'm thinking the build I use can be tweaked a lot more and yup I know there's two sources of cracked armor but that helps alot
Zidane Ortef
Quote:
Originally Posted by loopysnoopy
These are what I've been using since invoke got mugged and hit with the nerf bat
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/7153/elebarair.jpg
Build codes as follows
E/ME: OgVDEIysSTA6QgDLgNDID0ChDA
E/P:OgljgwMpZS7Y6QgDLgNDID0ChDA
Sadly not AoE but does pump out some good damage energy is never an issue
My hero is rune with a sup Air on head and minor E-storage on gloves
I'm thinking the build I use can be tweaked a lot more and yup I know there's two sources of cracked armor but that helps alot Lightning Surge + Shell shock is redundant, you better off bringing something like Epidemic with the E/Me to spread the cracked armor around or another command shout like "Stand Your Ground" etc with the Paragon variant.
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/7153/elebarair.jpg
Build codes as follows
E/ME: OgVDEIysSTA6QgDLgNDID0ChDA
E/P:OgljgwMpZS7Y6QgDLgNDID0ChDA
Sadly not AoE but does pump out some good damage energy is never an issue
My hero is rune with a sup Air on head and minor E-storage on gloves
I'm thinking the build I use can be tweaked a lot more and yup I know there's two sources of cracked armor but that helps alot Lightning Surge + Shell shock is redundant, you better off bringing something like Epidemic with the E/Me to spread the cracked armor around or another command shout like "Stand Your Ground" etc with the Paragon variant.
bleh
I'm currently just running 1 Water hero and me as Primary Ele.
Vanquishing easy areas.
Water hero runs WAH, Derp freeze, freezing gust, ect depending on the area.
I run master of magic ( in enchant friendly areas) Derp freeze, FB, stoning w/ Intensity.
Wreaking havoc with all the snares, My initial F DERP w/ intensity does 40~80+20~40 in HM to most of a balled group, the water hero maintains the snares.
Monsters 70% of the time try to run from aoe but give up then die. (with 66% slower runing.
But its not universal, and the damage lacks... its no INVOKE for sure.
Vanquishing easy areas.
Water hero runs WAH, Derp freeze, freezing gust, ect depending on the area.
I run master of magic ( in enchant friendly areas) Derp freeze, FB, stoning w/ Intensity.
Wreaking havoc with all the snares, My initial F DERP w/ intensity does 40~80+20~40 in HM to most of a balled group, the water hero maintains the snares.
Monsters 70% of the time try to run from aoe but give up then die. (with 66% slower runing.
But its not universal, and the damage lacks... its no INVOKE for sure.
WarcryOfTruth
My eles all run Invoke + Chain, they don't have energy trouble. Sure, Exhaustion gets pretty intense, but in between mobs, the exhaustion should recover enough to be manageable. I have yet to have their energy bars FULLY greyed out, and they seem to always be okay, unless I'm in a consistent fight lasting longer than 2 minutes or so, but I don't know of a single area that I farm in which I would be in that situation 
Skyy High
Am I the only person who doesn't find it unreasonable that the best combined AoE + single target damage hero build can't perform at 100% damage output continuously, with no down time? That maybe the fact that heroes run out of energy *eventually* while mowing down mobs is a good thing? That maybe the community should pick between the completely incongruous stances of "PvE is too easy!" and "There should be one all-encompassing 7 hero team that beats all HM areas quickly and efficiently (and anything that can't do that is absolute trash)!"
No? Just me? Ok then...
No? Just me? Ok then...
Lanier
Gabs88
Poor Jeydra doesn't wanna use mercs. ;p Seriously though, if you want big packets of unconditional damage at relatively low recharges with decent energy management it's either wait for updates, get mercs or think new. Possibly meaning "Go Melee", which overall seems to be a good choice right now given the increased HP that came with the reduced armor.
LexTalionis
Well, I've been getting quite a bit of success by replacing the Invoke Eles with Clamor Rits. Basic build is:
Clamor of souls
Spirit rift
Splinter weapon
Ancestor's rage
Cruel was daoshen
Ghostly Haste
+ 2 more. (Fall back and whatever, you can even offspec for a heal if you want)
Lamentation is sort of ok, but requires ghostly haste, and for obvious reasons, you need a MM (splinter targets) and something like a SoS in the party.
As for Energy management, I'm addicted to BiP.
Clamor of souls
Spirit rift
Splinter weapon
Ancestor's rage
Cruel was daoshen
Ghostly Haste
+ 2 more. (Fall back and whatever, you can even offspec for a heal if you want)
Lamentation is sort of ok, but requires ghostly haste, and for obvious reasons, you need a MM (splinter targets) and something like a SoS in the party.
As for Energy management, I'm addicted to BiP.
Daesu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
Use Mesmers - only have two Mesmers and both are already occupied; besides they can't use "Fall Back!" well.
Not sure what you mean by mesmers not using "Fall Back!" well. Don't you micro "Fall Back!"? Or do you mean that mesmers have a lower energy pool than eles so "Fall Back!" is more expensive for them?
simooshy
I still use Searing Flames on my ele hero, and find it to be really good, but then maybe it helps I am searing flames too?
Jeydra
@Searing Flames - this skill doesn't provide damage on demand. If I call a target, I expect him dead within 1.75s + 1.5s + 2.75s (EBVAS + AP + Lightning Orb). Ideally, I expect him dead within 1.75s + 1.5s. There is no time to deal damage with Searing Flames. If you want you can compare the single-target damage coming from Invoke Lightning + Lightning Orb vs. two casts of Searing Flames. Especially since you're not using any other skills with Searing Flames (e.g. Liquid Flame Fireball etc), which means you deal even less damage.
Not using AP Air is a big gamble because the control ability of AP Air relative to every other non-AP build is huge. Being able to take out any monster I choose in 6 seconds can easily swing a fight, and lets me get away with less healing.
@Dervish - forgot to say a hallmark of Invoke Eles is that they deal damage at range. Dervishes do not. Going with melee heroes brings a crap ton of restrictions, and they don't provide damage on demand since they might not be able to get to the called target.
@3.14159 - I'm skeptical that Chain Lightning @ 14 Air outdamages (say) Fireball @ 18 Fire. Besides even if it does there are two 25e spells on that bar, both of which need to be cast fairly often and so might strain GoLE out.
@SongOf - if you don't use Rodgort's what else is there to use in Fire? Immolate? Incendiary Bonds? How do those even compare to Rodgort's? As for not using Fire Eles vs. monsters resistant to Fire, one of the nicest things about Invoke Eles are that they work everywhere. Thanks to Cracked Armour + armour penetration, they continue to do great damage against Lightning-resistant monsters (which are uncommon). Also, that simply shifts the burden to another hero. What other Invoke replacement works against monsters that resist Fire? Do you have a build?
@WarcryOfTruth - they don't get zeroed out, sure, but they stop casting Invoke. At some maximum energy the AI stops using Exhaustion spells.
@LexTalionis - I only have two Rits and they're both occupied too >_< Still it's an interesting idea. I tried using Channeling not so long ago but the big damage spell (i.e. Spirit Rift) is delayed effect that easily misses, while the rest don't deal anywhere near as much damage as Air Magic (although they are admittedly cheaper). Ghostly Haste is an interesting idea. I'll give it a closer look later.
@Daesu - The drawback is the smaller spec in Command, and the fact that Dom Mesmers can use every point in Dom, FC and Inspiration. You can drop from 12 Energy Storage to 9 with little drawback, but not for FC or Inspiration. And if you skimp on Inspiration, you have less energy to power "Fall Back!" too.
@Skyy High - there already are builds that work against (almost) every area in the game actually: SDM. It's not much slower than pre-nerf Invoke for the majority of players. And I wouldn't care if ANet nerfed Invoke because it's a vital PvE 7H build. That's not the reason the nerf happened, however; it's a PvP change that probably spilled over to PvE because ANet isn't aware of Invoke's place. No surprises there though because Invoke users are rather rare.
Anyway I suspect there's a satisfactory solution out there, I just have to find it.
Not using AP Air is a big gamble because the control ability of AP Air relative to every other non-AP build is huge. Being able to take out any monster I choose in 6 seconds can easily swing a fight, and lets me get away with less healing.
@Dervish - forgot to say a hallmark of Invoke Eles is that they deal damage at range. Dervishes do not. Going with melee heroes brings a crap ton of restrictions, and they don't provide damage on demand since they might not be able to get to the called target.
@3.14159 - I'm skeptical that Chain Lightning @ 14 Air outdamages (say) Fireball @ 18 Fire. Besides even if it does there are two 25e spells on that bar, both of which need to be cast fairly often and so might strain GoLE out.
@SongOf - if you don't use Rodgort's what else is there to use in Fire? Immolate? Incendiary Bonds? How do those even compare to Rodgort's? As for not using Fire Eles vs. monsters resistant to Fire, one of the nicest things about Invoke Eles are that they work everywhere. Thanks to Cracked Armour + armour penetration, they continue to do great damage against Lightning-resistant monsters (which are uncommon). Also, that simply shifts the burden to another hero. What other Invoke replacement works against monsters that resist Fire? Do you have a build?
@WarcryOfTruth - they don't get zeroed out, sure, but they stop casting Invoke. At some maximum energy the AI stops using Exhaustion spells.
@LexTalionis - I only have two Rits and they're both occupied too >_< Still it's an interesting idea. I tried using Channeling not so long ago but the big damage spell (i.e. Spirit Rift) is delayed effect that easily misses, while the rest don't deal anywhere near as much damage as Air Magic (although they are admittedly cheaper). Ghostly Haste is an interesting idea. I'll give it a closer look later.
@Daesu - The drawback is the smaller spec in Command, and the fact that Dom Mesmers can use every point in Dom, FC and Inspiration. You can drop from 12 Energy Storage to 9 with little drawback, but not for FC or Inspiration. And if you skimp on Inspiration, you have less energy to power "Fall Back!" too.
@Skyy High - there already are builds that work against (almost) every area in the game actually: SDM. It's not much slower than pre-nerf Invoke for the majority of players. And I wouldn't care if ANet nerfed Invoke because it's a vital PvE 7H build. That's not the reason the nerf happened, however; it's a PvP change that probably spilled over to PvE because ANet isn't aware of Invoke's place. No surprises there though because Invoke users are rather rare.
Anyway I suspect there's a satisfactory solution out there, I just have to find it.
LexTalionis
@AndrewSX and Jeydra:
Yeah, sorry >_< I forgot to mention that I'm using mercs. In my opinion, it's a lot more effective than just going with 3 mesmers though - if you can ball stuff up for spirit rift and multiple splinters, the cracked armour and ancestors rage spam tends to wipe stuff pretty quickly, especially with cruel was daoshen backing it up. It's a pity Hero Rits don't use DWG properly, or I'd use that instead.
The other thing I forgot to mention is that I'm running it tankstyle on my Water Ele, abusing the fact that Mirror of Ice becomes a 140++ damage AoE nuke with a 6 second recharge(!) and a near perpetual 66% snare if you target yourself. This balls up enemies really nicely for all the Rit AoE and stops them from escaping. For single target damage, Vapor Blade really isn't that bad, especially with cracked Armor. It does really huge damage if you carry enough enchantment stripping.
Water Ele main build list is:
Mirror of Ice
Frozen Burst
Vapor Blade
Armor of Mist (sometimes Frost)
Water Attunement
+ 3 PvE skills or Glyph of Elemental Power or whatever. For Melee heavy areas like raptors, pump Air magic to 8 and use Lightning Touch. Of course, it's not as strong as AP caller will be, but it's kind of fun to play.
Yeah, sorry >_< I forgot to mention that I'm using mercs. In my opinion, it's a lot more effective than just going with 3 mesmers though - if you can ball stuff up for spirit rift and multiple splinters, the cracked armour and ancestors rage spam tends to wipe stuff pretty quickly, especially with cruel was daoshen backing it up. It's a pity Hero Rits don't use DWG properly, or I'd use that instead.
The other thing I forgot to mention is that I'm running it tankstyle on my Water Ele, abusing the fact that Mirror of Ice becomes a 140++ damage AoE nuke with a 6 second recharge(!) and a near perpetual 66% snare if you target yourself. This balls up enemies really nicely for all the Rit AoE and stops them from escaping. For single target damage, Vapor Blade really isn't that bad, especially with cracked Armor. It does really huge damage if you carry enough enchantment stripping.
Water Ele main build list is:
Mirror of Ice
Frozen Burst
Vapor Blade
Armor of Mist (sometimes Frost)
Water Attunement
+ 3 PvE skills or Glyph of Elemental Power or whatever. For Melee heavy areas like raptors, pump Air magic to 8 and use Lightning Touch. Of course, it's not as strong as AP caller will be, but it's kind of fun to play.
3.142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
@3.14159
This made me smile. I wasn't sure how useful the snare would be either tbh.
AndrewSX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
That's not the reason the nerf happened, however; it's a PvP change that probably spilled over to PvE because ANet isn't aware of Invoke's place. No surprises there though because Invoke users are rather rare.
This is the only thing that gets me mad.
I was tempted to post a request in Saderlac to split in pvp/pve versions Chain and Invoke Lighting, even just reintroducing the conditional Exaustion would be enough to have invokers returns...
Returning IT, i think i'm going to test a bit more a simple change to the elite of the onl builds. Replacing 2x Invokes with Thundherclap, BSurge or something else looks interesting, but don't know how much powerful. Btw, i'm quite sure that there aren't great direct dmg option anymore for elites, but shifting the builds more to support/utility will probably be the result.
As i said before for example, old build switching Invoke for Gust works wonderfully if using a meele. Matter of try out all the options - maybe looking down to 2nd profs and EStorage too.
I was tempted to post a request in Saderlac to split in pvp/pve versions Chain and Invoke Lighting, even just reintroducing the conditional Exaustion would be enough to have invokers returns...
Returning IT, i think i'm going to test a bit more a simple change to the elite of the onl builds. Replacing 2x Invokes with Thundherclap, BSurge or something else looks interesting, but don't know how much powerful. Btw, i'm quite sure that there aren't great direct dmg option anymore for elites, but shifting the builds more to support/utility will probably be the result.
As i said before for example, old build switching Invoke for Gust works wonderfully if using a meele. Matter of try out all the options - maybe looking down to 2nd profs and EStorage too.
Swingline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
----------
Quote:
If you think no mob can heal through SF, try bringing a team of 6 SF Eles with 2 E/Mo Prots and killing the first mob in Duncan HM. I'll be one of the E/Mo's if you like, and bring three fully runed SF heroes.
I think Searing Flames is quite bad in general, and especially bad as an Invoke replacement.
@AndrewSX - that's what I'm trying ... in fact I'm trying to revamp the entire teambuild, doing things like taking prots off the MM, heals off the SoS, etc. I just haven't found a solution yet. I can't imagine Gust taking the place of Invoke however. Not only does it deal less damage, it doesn't get armour penetration and has longer cooldown.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by LexTalionis
It's a pity Hero Rits don't use DWG properly, or I'd use that instead.
How do heroes use DWG? I imagine they'd maintain it, and then run up to mobs to drop it?
Gabs88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
How do heroes use DWG? I imagine they'd maintain it, and then run up to mobs to drop it?
In simple terms they don't drop it for damage but maintain it for armor penetration. You'd have to bind to get them to drop it.
This bar was on GWPVX front page though, not sure how good it works but it might just fit the bill. http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:Me/E_SoI_Multinuker_Hero xDusT II
doesn't the third fall back only need to be like 5-6 seconds anyway?
other than dual attune fire, i think ranger might be workable with low command spec and change ancestor's for splinter on the rit - although you have to work around awkward attributes and possible energy issues (14exp, 14 mark, 6 command or something)
Swingline
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewSX
The point is that probably there isn't anything atm able to perform what old Invokers were able to. I mentioned Gust only in a Meele Player enviroment, and it works...quite good,if you can be satisfied by seeing every mob around you be KD (with all the tactical and rupts meanings).
But it's obvious that is isn't even closer to the uncond low CD low cost on demand high dmg of the old Invoke. ...and there's the problem. They can't be satisfied. Jeydra is just a fanboy of invoke and can't let it go. Invoke is gone and there is no perfect replacement for it. @Jeydra: About the 3-4 second comment I am not talking about whole groups, just the backline. There are also 4 other heroes doing some form of damage/shutdown to help kill the mob but SF does give satisfying numbers with its AoE range and burning. Just because SF is a different style of play than Invoke doesn't mean its bad, it means its just not your style.
AndrewSX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swingline
...and there's the problem. They can't be satisfied.
Well, it's right too, Invoke was soo good.
Lanier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
@Dervish - forgot to say a hallmark of Invoke Eles is that they deal damage at range. Dervishes do not. Going with melee heroes brings a crap ton of restrictions, and they don't provide damage on demand since they might not be able to get to the called target.
tbh, your arguement in that thread never really convinced me. Dervs still deal a crap ton of damage regardless of these "restrictions" that you mention... though I will admit they probably aren't right for your build considering you aren't catering to a physway playstyle with your other heroes' builds.
IchibanK
I have a feeling that people tend to underestimate the value of the 25% armour penetration from Air. If you crunch the numbers you will find that they do not support Jeydra's blanket conclusion that Air is dead. Injured yes, but no more dead than say, fire.
In part this is why it's so hard to find a replacement for the old Invoke build. Air magic becomes (relatively) better as the armour level gets higher. Fire serves well for groups of Lvl26 human foes that now have AL60. Beyond that it starts to lose it's advantage. It could be argued that fire helps most when you need it least. I do not believe an equal replacement to invoke can be found within the elementalist class. Chthon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
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(Since humans don't suffer from the same idiocy, it might make a nice player build for people who refuse to use AP. Something like: Rodgort's, Fireball, Lava Arrows, Weaken Armor, EBSoH, Ele Lord, E Attune, F Attune maybe...)
Also, while one can debate whether EA-Fire is superior to SF if both builds are used properly, I don't see much of a question which is better when the AI uses SF correctly, but won't $%&#@! use Rodgort's when it should.
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra
@Searing Flames - this skill doesn't provide damage on demand. If I call a target, I expect him dead within 1.75s + 1.5s + 2.75s (EBVAS + AP + Lightning Orb). Ideally, I expect him dead within 1.75s + 1.5s. There is no time to deal damage with Searing Flames. If you want you can compare the single-target damage coming from Invoke Lightning + Lightning Orb vs. two casts of Searing Flames. Especially since you're not using any other skills with Searing Flames (e.g. Liquid Flame Fireball etc), which means you deal even less damage.
1. You exaggerate too. In practice, SF is usually damage on demand since the target is usually already burning. In the optimal case, you lose only one cast of SF on one of two SF heroes towards burning at the very start of the battle; after that MoR goes up and SF's large AoE radius means it keeps re-triggering MoR on everything, thus keeping SF doing direct damage rather than burning. You don't always get the optimal case, but what you usually get is a lot closer to the optimal case than to this "no damage on demand" case that you're describing. (I'd hazard a guess that two SF heroes with one copy of MoR probably waste SF casts towards burning less frequently than EA-Fire heroes stand there and wand because they don't want to cast Rodgort's.)2. It's unreasonable to expect 6-sec spikes from potential replacement builds when Invoke+LS didn't really live up to that in the first place. Monster number 1 is a dead duck since he's going to get everything chain cast at him; but monster number 2 is going to get a respite while things recharge; and from there on out recharge issues are going to make unloading the full payload take somewhat longer than 6 sec. (Of course, unhealed AoE damage is going to make later monsters not necessarily need a full payload to kill; but that's true for every build that uses significant AoE.) SF damage over the same realistic average time period old Invoke-CL needed to drop its full payload is slightly lower (so is every other option on the table) but at least in the same ballpark. (Spikiness aside, it also seems to be the highest DPS.)
3. Who says you can't slot fireball in a SF build?
Quote: Originally Posted by 3.142
Master of magic!!!1111 Take a few useful skills from everywhere.Flawless. I thought of that too. Unfortunately, the hero AI does not prioritize MoM. Often it'll sit there casting its spells at 0 spec. Doh!
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra
Keep Invoke Lightning, ditch Chain Lightning - tried this out, hero still runs out of energy. He runs out of energy slower, but run out he will. Does not work.Keep Chain Lightning, ditch Invoke Lightning - tried this out, not only does the hero still run out of energy there aren't many good skills in Air Magic to compensate. Does not work. I didn't fool with it for too long, but I found that using just CL the exhaustion never hit the point where the AI would stop using it. The bigger issue for me is that Air no longer has two big-damage AoE spells on acceptable recharge.
Quote: Switch primary element to Water - not enough useful skills in Water to even try. If Shatterstone had 4s cooldown + 1s cast + detonated on death it might be able to carry the entire Water line on its back, but no, it does not. Are you sure Shatterstone doesn't pop if removed early? Wiki says it does. Of course, wiki could be wrong...
Quote: Use Death Magic - there aren't many good non-minion skills in Death Magic. There's Deathly Swarm, Discord and Putrid Bile; that's all. That does mean there's plenty of room for something else, but also means there's not much in the way of damage. Deathly Swarm is NOT Invoke Lightning; in fact it is very much worse. Putrid Bile isn't very good either, but then it's a non-elite so can't complain. Discord being conditional is a big strike against it as well because it forces me to AP (and even then the AI doesn't cast it on recharge, and it isn't AoE). Other skills like Vile Miasma tend to tempt the AI into casting them instead of Discord, even if the conditions are met. Assuming (even though you disagree) that Deathly Swarm post-update is more-or-less on par with LS pre-update, the damage obviously doesn't compare because Discord is just so much worse than Invoke. I wouldn't look at this sort of build as replacement for Invoke+LS so much as a change to the minion guy your party already has to bring more of a "rainbow spike" capability to the overall team.
Quote: If all the monsters who heavily resist Fire left bodies, it'd be possible to patch up the Death Magic bar with Animate spells and only use them when the Fire Eles aren't viable, but no, things like Ruby Djinn exist. Seriously? How many zones that have Djinn are also so short on corpses that minions aren't viable? Hidden City mission, maybe Forgewight, and I can't think of any others.
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Use Icy Veins - if Death Magic and its array of damaging spells does not work, what good is Icy Veins, Signet of Sorrow and Angorodon's Gaze? Especially since the secondary profession is locked to Paragon with considerable spec in Command.
I don't think anyone in their right mind is suggesting an IV build as a replacement for Invoke+LS. It has been mentioned, and rightly so, as something quite decent to use on high-SR necros that don't have any better use for their elites. N/Rt healers are the obvious choice. To the extent that minion guys are not dropping SR to spec a third attribute, IV is probably the best elite for them (unless they're running Fiends+Horrors+BotM, in which case I'd go with OoU). Quote:
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