@Jeydra
I tried the extreme SF/EA mimicry setup equipping my 2 SFs heroes with dual superior runes and compensating the health cut bringing a ST hero with Vital Weapon (the AI is smart enough to cast Vital Weapon firstly on heroes with lower health). With this setup I've quickly completed the following WoC HM quests: Cleansing Rhea's Crater, Cleansing the Silent Surf, Cleansing Morostav Trail and Intercepting the Am Fah. Now, Tracking the Corruption quest has stopped me, but I should try swapping staves and wands with spears and shields to avoid Chaos Storm on my party. Also I should note that the first heroes to fall weren't the SFs but the two having an hard res on their bar.
Replacing the Invoke Ele
Aria Frost
Jeydra
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azazello
Some of your shatterstone complaints seem fairly groundless, such as lower damage. If the target lives 3s, it's more damage, and it's not even close on large packs. Vapor blade will do more damage than orb to targets with less than 120AL if you're carrying cracked armour, etc etc. I've already addressed them and really can't be bothered going over it for the second or third time.
So while the three main ones might be most important, you've also spent the entire thread sticking on the 'must unload its damage in less than three seconds (no surge/shatterstone/etc)'. I'd suggest adding it to your original post.
You're also sticking on a few others there (for example, this thread wouldn't exist if you were willing to run a build that runs out of energy occasionally, you ruled mesmers out in your OP, and so on). Maybe you should go through the list I posted and have a bit of a think about it. I'm gonna throw in 'just run sos' so you can add in your objections to that too. Unless you wanna just run sos of course.
Once we have the full list of things that old invoke did that you're unwilling to let go of, we have a better basis for coming up with something.
In the same way, during that three seconds before which Shatterstone does more damage than old Invoke, you can cast Chain Lightning / Lightning Orb, and you deal more damage. You might point out that you can cast a Water spell during that three seconds as well, and you would be right, but name some worthy Water skill to compare with Chain Lightning / Lightning Orb (for example). Vapor Blade loses outright, Ice Spikes / Deep Freeze / Rust deal way less damage. Let's not forget as well that if a called target lives longer than 3s, something is wrong.
I find it very hard to believe that Vapor Blade does more damage than Lightning Orb to targets that have less than 120 AL after Cracked Armour. Please prove it with numbers. You also assume Cracked Armour already on the target. That typically means you have someone else casting Weaken Armour when he could equally be using (say) Unnatural Signet for 79 damage. Is it worth it? You tell me.
Thing to note about Shatterstone Eles is that the build, like the Earth Eles, didn't get off the drawing board. I never kitted out one Water Ele. Maybe I can give it a passing mention, but I'm hard pressed to find the motivation to edit the OP.
I'm willing to use a build that runs out of energy occasionally. Show me the build. I'm not willing to use Mesmers. My Mesmers are already occupied. I can't run SoS. I already have one.
I've given you the full list of things old Invoke does that I'm not willing to give up on. Read the OP.
Quote:
Searing flames, lightning surge, shatterstone - don't do their damage fast enough.
Fire magic in general - areas where it sucks, we're looking for solutions for those areas.
DotAoE - doesn't do its damage fast enough, requires balling.
Minions - some areas lack corpses.
Rangers - energy restrictions won't allow them to bring fall back.
Mesmers - taken.
Mercs - no.
Melee, pbaoe - not enough range. Lightning Surge - doesn't do damage fast enough and it isn't AoE.
Shatterstone - doesn't do enough damage and it isn't AoE and is stuck in an attribute line that can't provide it the support it needs when it's on cooldown.
Minions - already using them, difficult to use two MMs at full potential in many areas.
Channeling Rit - can only use one without skimping on SoS or SoGM, both of which are extremely powerful templates I'm loathe to give up. Damage also appears to be worse. There isn't much AoE damage available. Spirit Rift isn't damage on demand, Clamour of Souls has long cooldown + doesn't do much damage. DWG appears to be the best option, but apparently heroes don't use it very well. Single-target damage appears to be OK, up to a point. It doesn't have the oomph Invoke did with 95 damage / 1s cast, but it's decent still.
Third Mesmer - something I will try out. It has potential.
If you got ideas or (preferably) testimony with individual builds, I'm listening.
PS: I just ran a test. Vapor Blade vs. AL 80 dummy @ 16 Water did 101 damage. Lightning Orb vs. AL 100 dummy @ 16 Air did 106 damage. So no, Vapor Blade does not deal more damage even after Cracked Armour (against certain monsters at least).
@MithranArkanere - tried that. Air variant runs out of energy. It shouldn't, but thanks to the spiky nature that Invoke Eles are supposed to be, Lightning Hammer often fails to finish casting and that kills energy awfully fast. Fire variant is very worth using and fast becoming a staple with my builds. Can't see the point of the Earth and Water variants, which leaves the problem as it stands.
@above - oh, Vital Weapon. The dual Superiors threw me off at first. I'll take a closer look at the teambuild later.
Azazello
Less than is not equal to. Vapor blade does exactly what I said it does. Fretting about the lack of other viable skills in water is nonsensical when you're only running 3 spells from air plus shock arrow, water can provide that. Complaining about the lack of damage on your third spell when you're making a gain on the other two and getting a secondary effect from the 'low damage' third is also silly. Deep freeze is not low damage anyway. Hitting every target in the area for 50 damage is more damage than hitting 3 targets nearby for 100. The real issue is that shatterstone takes 3s, and that's fine, but you should have said so in the first place. BTW, if you're willing to run a build that runs out of energy, run invoke.
Channeling rit damage is higher than invoke damage, but the aoe is clunkier. 138 @ 20% penetration (channeled strike) > 105 @ 25% (lightning orb). Arage is less reliable aoe than invoke/chain lightning, but the damage is higher, and DwG outdamages both put together, but like I said, it's clunkier. Once again, you can't have everything invoke did plus more, or you would have been running that build over invoke in the first place. You can have all the things it did and more, or all the things it did and higher damage, but you're going to have to accept that there are drawbacks to those advantages.
Update your OP to indicate exactly what you're looking for, or post it here. Don't ask for 3 things and when you get given a build that does those 3 things and more, complain that it doesn't fit some other criteria that you never named.
Channeling rit damage is higher than invoke damage, but the aoe is clunkier. 138 @ 20% penetration (channeled strike) > 105 @ 25% (lightning orb). Arage is less reliable aoe than invoke/chain lightning, but the damage is higher, and DwG outdamages both put together, but like I said, it's clunkier. Once again, you can't have everything invoke did plus more, or you would have been running that build over invoke in the first place. You can have all the things it did and more, or all the things it did and higher damage, but you're going to have to accept that there are drawbacks to those advantages.
Update your OP to indicate exactly what you're looking for, or post it here. Don't ask for 3 things and when you get given a build that does those 3 things and more, complain that it doesn't fit some other criteria that you never named.
Jeydra
You said:
Quote:
Vapor blade will do more damage than orb to targets with less than 120AL if you're carrying cracked armour, etc etc.
Quote:
Quote: PS: I just ran a test. Vapor Blade vs. AL 80 dummy @ 16 Water did 101 damage. Lightning Orb vs. AL 100 dummy @ 16 Air did 106 damage. So no, Vapor Blade does not deal more damage even after Cracked Armour (against certain monsters at least). Vapor Blade does not do what you said it does.
Deep Freeze is low damage. Hitting every target in the area for 50 damage is less than hitting three targets for 100.
I'm willing to use a build that runs out of energy occasionally. You used that word yourself, you must know. Unfortunately post-nerf Invoke does not run out of energy occasionally. It runs out of energy all the time, and it takes longer than normal to replenish that energy, thanks to exhaustion.
I'm not going to discuss Channeling Rits in more detail until I try them.
I have given you the three things I'm looking for. You say you've given me a build. What is it? Give me the spec and all eight skills.
Azazello
I guess you typically pull 5 or less mobs? I typically pull about 10-15, so I understand why you consider deep freeze to be less damage than CL, do you understand why I consider it more? 500>300. You're right about vapor blade, it only breaks about even at around 100-110 AL, and falls behind slightly the further you get from that. Again, no idea how much armor HM mobs have now.
I did not realise invoke ran out so quickly, so that opens up some space. The build can run out of energy, so long as it doesn't run out too quickly, criteria #4 I guess?
I did not realise invoke ran out so quickly, so that opens up some space. The build can run out of energy, so long as it doesn't run out too quickly, criteria #4 I guess?
Jeydra
You get perfect balls off every mob? My hats off to you then, you are the best player I've seen in the game.
Since you are so good please advise about this:
Quote:
I have given you the three things I'm looking for. You say you've given me a build. What is it? Give me the spec and all eight skills.
I'm still looking for the same three things. Running out of energy or not is not a criterion, or if you're really pedantic, I'll add the word "sustainable" to two of the three criteria.Since you are so good please advise about this:
Quote:
PS: one would think that the more armour a target has, the greater the advantage Lightning Orb has over Vapor Blade.
Doug4130
Would bringing a blood necro be enough to offset invoke's energy drain?
Jeydra
That's why it's possible to cope with "running out of energy", but not to cope with "running out of energy due to exhaustion" @_@
Azazello
The gap increases as armour decreases too, due to the 60 minimum on cracked armor. The advantage of deep freeze is that you don't need a perfect ball, not even close. Heroes can ball them enough for 'in the area' spells.
Anyways, you wanted a bar, add a third mesmer, give him skills, problem solved.
Anyways, you wanted a bar, add a third mesmer, give him skills, problem solved.
Jeydra
Here's what my screen looks like right now. Please advise on how to ball 10-15 monsters.
PS: Of course the gap in damage decreases as armour goes down. I don't understand why you're implying it the opposite way, by using monsters with high AL of 100-110.
PPS: Dom Mesmers can't easily run Fall Back @ 9 Command. 7 Command is possible but the sacrifice in Inspiration and Fast Casting is obvious. If you have a working bar, please post the spec + 8 skills.
PS: Of course the gap in damage decreases as armour goes down. I don't understand why you're implying it the opposite way, by using monsters with high AL of 100-110.
PPS: Dom Mesmers can't easily run Fall Back @ 9 Command. 7 Command is possible but the sacrifice in Inspiration and Fast Casting is obvious. If you have a working bar, please post the spec + 8 skills.
Azazello
Really? Mine looks like this, please advise?
It would also be good if you could let me know how you got that implication from what I said.
It would also be good if you could let me know how you got that implication from what I said.
Jeydra
I went to DoA like you and all I got is this:
Please advise. Maybe I should get my MM to raise 11 minions and then kill him? Then 11 + 6 = 17 monsters for me to ball with heroes! Maybe the fact that my MM is a hero is how you ball 10-15 monsters with heroes! All I need to do is get him to kill himself!
And it's really obvious. The numbers I got were for hitting an AL 100 target with Vapor Blade after Cracked Armour and Lightning Orb. You then went on to cite AL 100-110. What gives?
PS: Stop being silly, and I might take you seriously. 10-15 monsters. Yeah. Right. At that rate it's better to use Fire Magic against Destroyers than pre-nerf Invoke. If you persist in quoting this number, thank you very much for your sage advice, but you're too much above my level so I prefer to listen to worse players. Happy farming DoA NM!
Please advise. Maybe I should get my MM to raise 11 minions and then kill him? Then 11 + 6 = 17 monsters for me to ball with heroes! Maybe the fact that my MM is a hero is how you ball 10-15 monsters with heroes! All I need to do is get him to kill himself!
And it's really obvious. The numbers I got were for hitting an AL 100 target with Vapor Blade after Cracked Armour and Lightning Orb. You then went on to cite AL 100-110. What gives?
PS: Stop being silly, and I might take you seriously. 10-15 monsters. Yeah. Right. At that rate it's better to use Fire Magic against Destroyers than pre-nerf Invoke. If you persist in quoting this number, thank you very much for your sage advice, but you're too much above my level so I prefer to listen to worse players. Happy farming DoA NM!
Azazello
Go 2 rooms further and repost what you see. Sorry I didn't want to take 10 minutes getting there so I could take a HM picture for you, another time perhaps. Anyways, right now I'm doing some slavers (in HM wewt im so awesome!!!) so I'll post you a pic once I get in if you like?
Your pic reminds me, you might be missing one essential detail about water magic. You want something to use against fire resistant enemies, which would include destroyers right?
Your pic reminds me, you might be missing one essential detail about water magic. You want something to use against fire resistant enemies, which would include destroyers right?
Jeydra
Show me a ball of 10-15 monsters 2 rooms further achieved using heroes to ball (i.e. no player SF balling) and I'll eat my words. If you can't, shut up.
FYI, I can also tell you off the top of my head that the first mob you face in Duncan HM has 8 monsters.
FYI, I can also tell you off the top of my head that the first mob you face in Duncan HM has 8 monsters.
Azazello
Ok, I'll post you a pic in a sec. Not going to Duncan first though, hope that's ok by you boss. Btw, 8x50 > 3x100.
Jeydra
I'd love to see you post a ball of the first eight monsters in Duncan HM achieved using heroes, too. Actually, that would be the best. Go ball them, and then cast Deep Freeze yourself. If you can get 8x damage numbers vs. Dwarves (sacrificing yourself so the MM can raise 10 minions doesn't count), then you prove your point. I think it's doable, but you are going to have to tank yourself and you said something about "Heroes can ball them enough for 'in the area' spells", idk.
Azazello
Yeah, no. I'm not going all the way to Duncan tonight, it's 3am here. I'm not using deep freeze on my bar, and you're missing that deep freeze does extra damage against the fire resistant enemies you're looking to damage. You're also ignoring that 7 enemies in a space the size of a ward is enough to outdamage invoke with deepfreeze even if deepfreeze only did half of invokes damage to each target, which it doesn't. Against destroyers, it does just as much damage per target as invoke, and hits more targets. Anyways, I'll post you a pic in a minute, had to go back to town, forgot to load FS :P
And now my stupid laptop froze and I wiped in Thommis
Post it up tomorrow sorry, 3:30 am here. Oh hang on, I forgot you get to res here, I'll pull now. Eh I missed :P Only got one group.
Melonni pull.
http://imageshack.us/f/404/gw012co.jpg/
9 mobs in the area, but one's dead and two are minions.
http://imageshack.us/f/4/gw015en.jpg/
I would have preferred to post the room before, as the corner pull is less likely to be complained about than the choke pull, but between the 2 groups there were 3 healers and 2 warders, so it got messy, heroes and mobs running all over the place :P Of course, the 'corner' pull is actually a small enough area that deep freeze will cross the whole room, so it's no different I guess.
I'll post some up from the start of Selvetarm tomorrow if these are unsatisfactory evidence that deep freeze can do more damage per cast than invoke. Of course Selvetarm kinda works in my favour too, as does HM veil, will those be fine? Otherwise you can suggest something else or wait till I get around to Duncan. I can even run Thommis again and get better shots, I haven't done slavers in like a year, and screwed up all 3 of the big pulls before this one, partly due to trying to get good shots. I won't be pulling 2 groups in forgewright btw, in case that's what you're thinking :P
And now my stupid laptop froze and I wiped in Thommis
Post it up tomorrow sorry, 3:30 am here. Oh hang on, I forgot you get to res here, I'll pull now. Eh I missed :P Only got one group.Melonni pull.
http://imageshack.us/f/404/gw012co.jpg/
9 mobs in the area, but one's dead and two are minions.
http://imageshack.us/f/4/gw015en.jpg/
I would have preferred to post the room before, as the corner pull is less likely to be complained about than the choke pull, but between the 2 groups there were 3 healers and 2 warders, so it got messy, heroes and mobs running all over the place :P Of course, the 'corner' pull is actually a small enough area that deep freeze will cross the whole room, so it's no different I guess.
I'll post some up from the start of Selvetarm tomorrow if these are unsatisfactory evidence that deep freeze can do more damage per cast than invoke. Of course Selvetarm kinda works in my favour too, as does HM veil, will those be fine? Otherwise you can suggest something else or wait till I get around to Duncan. I can even run Thommis again and get better shots, I haven't done slavers in like a year, and screwed up all 3 of the big pulls before this one, partly due to trying to get good shots. I won't be pulling 2 groups in forgewright btw, in case that's what you're thinking :P
EFGJack
I bet that Jeydra can kill the mob in the time it takes to ball them with a hero, heh.
Jeydra isn't looking for a build that does big numbers on paper, he's looking for a build that gets the job done as fast as possible, and no matter how amazing a build is, it can still be slowER than what he's running atm if the amount of time required to execute a ball' 'n' nuke with a hero baller is greater than the time it takes to kill them the old-fashioned way.
Jeydra isn't looking for a build that does big numbers on paper, he's looking for a build that gets the job done as fast as possible, and no matter how amazing a build is, it can still be slowER than what he's running atm if the amount of time required to execute a ball' 'n' nuke with a hero baller is greater than the time it takes to kill them the old-fashioned way.
AndrewSX
@Azazello:You seriously have 2 Dervs in team as Nec, and you're playing a gimped SoS instead giving it to a primary hero rit and go AP-mop abusing? Just saying.
BTW: balling more than 6-7 mobs in HM is beyond a rare occasion, and when that happens, DF won't blow up them. Maybe dealing 50 dmg to all of them, maybe keeping them in place for 10 secs, but not killing.
Also, your reasoning is wrong at the base: is better to kill 3 mobs out of 10 (with invoke hitting only those 3) and others full hp rather than hitting all with weak stuff like DF but having all of them alive.
About OP: atm, i think there isn't a build able to achieve what old Invoke were able to. Maybe with upcoming changes to non-elite ele skills, but who knows.
BTW: balling more than 6-7 mobs in HM is beyond a rare occasion, and when that happens, DF won't blow up them. Maybe dealing 50 dmg to all of them, maybe keeping them in place for 10 secs, but not killing.
Also, your reasoning is wrong at the base: is better to kill 3 mobs out of 10 (with invoke hitting only those 3) and others full hp rather than hitting all with weak stuff like DF but having all of them alive.
About OP: atm, i think there isn't a build able to achieve what old Invoke were able to. Maybe with upcoming changes to non-elite ele skills, but who knows.
Azazello
All I did was flag forward, flag back when I saw the red dots start moving. I forgot about the secret code that deep freeze doesn't work unless you use a hero to pull though. Still, I was held to my hyperbole, as I should be 
@Andrew, you seemed to like it last time. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...472179p18.html
AFAIK, the only things that have changed since I posted that is using IV instead of preservation since IV actually does something in HM now, and grenth instead of dwayna. Oh, and I've cleared a lot more areas with it.
BTW, I've watched mobs running for the backline turn around and ball up with the rest on the dervs since I started playing again in the last few days. Don't know if something changed there, but they're doing better than ever. The only thing that really distracts mobs now is my spirits.
@Andrew, you seemed to like it last time. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...472179p18.html
AFAIK, the only things that have changed since I posted that is using IV instead of preservation since IV actually does something in HM now, and grenth instead of dwayna. Oh, and I've cleared a lot more areas with it.
BTW, I've watched mobs running for the backline turn around and ball up with the rest on the dervs since I started playing again in the last few days. Don't know if something changed there, but they're doing better than ever. The only thing that really distracts mobs now is my spirits.
AndrewSX
Not arguing about the speed or effectiveness...but putting 2 meeles + splinter in a Necro human team and having the nec running gimped (r12 chan, r0 SP) spirits instead of Mop abuse.... especially if you're so good at pulling and balling with heroes and looking for speed/effectiveness... looks (forgive my words) plain stupid.
Azazello
Fair call, it does, but it's been the most effective so far (although I haven't tried anything other than what I listed in that old thread). I don't even remember the reasoning behind this SoS bar tbh, something to do with running offensive communing spirits elsewhere, and having a slot left to PI ae guys trying to nuke my spirits... I think this bar has zero spirit conflicts with the best SoGM bar? The dps is about 30 lower than a proper SoS bar iirc. It was saved in my folder as 'mobile sos' so maybe that has something to do with it. I guess I just loaded it up to test the team build and kept going back to it since it worked best. Could definitely use some looking at now, thanks 
Actually, watching how effective panic has been lately makes me want to rethink that illusion bar too!
Anyway, couple images from the rest of that run, playing normally (i.e just running in), rather than trying to pull with hero:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/706/gw027oi.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/836/gw022e.jpg/
First one is not a good shot to show what happened, but I took two steps right and they all balled up as melee mobs do. I wiped again on the pull after that second shot, and I can't blame the laptop for that, I noobed out fighting the guys under the bridge thing (directly ahead in the shot) and pulled the guys from above as well.
BTW it's about 15-16 mobs aggroed in the second shot, 11 or 12 of which are clumped on me, and as you can see, they're getting raped. Pulls of 8+ aren't all that rare imo, unless you're being careful for whatever reason. I would certainly try to aggro as few as possible in forgewright or foundry for example. Not that I'd take this team to foundry, learned that the hard way :P
And it looks like an allnighter for me. 6:40am now :P
Actually, watching how effective panic has been lately makes me want to rethink that illusion bar too!
Anyway, couple images from the rest of that run, playing normally (i.e just running in), rather than trying to pull with hero:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/706/gw027oi.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/836/gw022e.jpg/
First one is not a good shot to show what happened, but I took two steps right and they all balled up as melee mobs do. I wiped again on the pull after that second shot, and I can't blame the laptop for that, I noobed out fighting the guys under the bridge thing (directly ahead in the shot) and pulled the guys from above as well.
BTW it's about 15-16 mobs aggroed in the second shot, 11 or 12 of which are clumped on me, and as you can see, they're getting raped. Pulls of 8+ aren't all that rare imo, unless you're being careful for whatever reason. I would certainly try to aggro as few as possible in forgewright or foundry for example. Not that I'd take this team to foundry, learned that the hard way :P
And it looks like an allnighter for me. 6:40am now :P
Jeydra
It's easy to ball those monsters because they're all melee. It's like saying you can ball 30+ Raptors outside Rata Sum and therefore you ball 30+ monsters in general. Those screenshots can be representative, but you must make them so: in Rand, take screenshots of the first mob to the last, and count how many mobs you actually do ball + how many monsters there are each ball.
You will not get 10-15 monsters per ball. In the same way, you can see 10-15 monsters in the third room of Foundry, but you can't ball them without dying (or without a specific tank build).
Like I said, do Duncan. A lot can come out of that screenshot. You face a mixed mob that comes immediately after entering the area. Since you can ostensibly ball with a hero, you can bring Deep Freeze yourself at no cost (you're not the one doing balling, so what's the difficulty?). After you're done balling, cast Deep Freeze or any other in the area AoE spell you want, and get all eight Dwarves. Take the screenshot with /age. Post it, it'll be revealing.
I used the numbers 50 for Deep Freeze and 100 for Chain Lightning because you used them first. They are definitely untrue. The difference in damage is not so large. It doesn't matter though. Chain Lightning easily outdamages Deep Freeze (in my case at least) thanks to the imperfect balls, monsters dying, shorter recharge and the fact that Deep Freeze, like Shatterstone, cannot be stacked without micro. You might wonder why I mention the last point - answer is because Invoke Eles were my artillery damage characters, and I like having two of them. So even if one Shatterstone Ele is decent, there still needs to be a second source of Cold damage to fully fill the niche.
If you have a specific bar with spec + all eight skills to recommend, post it. Elsewise, I'll have to unlock Zei Ri to be able to comment more on the 3rd Dom Mes / Channeling Rit.
You will not get 10-15 monsters per ball. In the same way, you can see 10-15 monsters in the third room of Foundry, but you can't ball them without dying (or without a specific tank build).
Like I said, do Duncan. A lot can come out of that screenshot. You face a mixed mob that comes immediately after entering the area. Since you can ostensibly ball with a hero, you can bring Deep Freeze yourself at no cost (you're not the one doing balling, so what's the difficulty?). After you're done balling, cast Deep Freeze or any other in the area AoE spell you want, and get all eight Dwarves. Take the screenshot with /age. Post it, it'll be revealing.
I used the numbers 50 for Deep Freeze and 100 for Chain Lightning because you used them first. They are definitely untrue. The difference in damage is not so large. It doesn't matter though. Chain Lightning easily outdamages Deep Freeze (in my case at least) thanks to the imperfect balls, monsters dying, shorter recharge and the fact that Deep Freeze, like Shatterstone, cannot be stacked without micro. You might wonder why I mention the last point - answer is because Invoke Eles were my artillery damage characters, and I like having two of them. So even if one Shatterstone Ele is decent, there still needs to be a second source of Cold damage to fully fill the niche.
If you have a specific bar with spec + all eight skills to recommend, post it. Elsewise, I'll have to unlock Zei Ri to be able to comment more on the 3rd Dom Mes / Channeling Rit.
LexTalionis
Personally, I've tried all sorts of weird stuff (and I mostly play casters) with Water Magic since the patch, and the only thing which I've found even remotely reasonably good at enemy balling is EBAS and Mirror of Ice - and even with that, you won't ball enemy casters and there's still weird enemy splits thanks to wonky aggro. Deep Freeze tended to be too slow with that 2 second cast to help ball things up (enemy group splits all over by then) - unless they were already balled up to begin with. Going into water magic, I often got better results speedwise with Water Trident than Shatterstone, which doesn't bode too well for Shatterstone.
Personally, I think rangers may show some promise - the energy issue is far from unsolvable and you only ever need 12 MMS at maximum anyway. They also have insane elemental resists. Going to tweak them and see.
Personally, I think rangers may show some promise - the energy issue is far from unsolvable and you only ever need 12 MMS at maximum anyway. They also have insane elemental resists. Going to tweak them and see.
Azazello
In Rand, almost every pull has 6+ guys, even when you only pull one group at a time. Since deep freeze outdamages invoke at less than 6 guys, you're really clutching at straws now Jeydra, and I think you know it. Sticking to the 'you have to ball with heroes just because you said you could!' shit, even though it's completely irrelevant to whether deep freeze does more damage per cast than invoke. Telling me I have to run deep freeze on my necro, for whatever wonderful reason you have in your head. Ignoring the 9 mixed mobs balled in the first pic. Pretending that melee pulls aren't 'representative', as if only mixed pulls exist in the game. Who started with the 'unrepresentative' pics btw, with a shot of a 4pull in a VQ you could afk through?
You were wrong, just like I was about vapor blade, try to deal with it like an adult.
IF I get around to it at some point, I will post the pics you're asking for, but since most of what you're asking for is utterly irrelevant, it's not exactly a priority. Right now, I'm gonna go mow my lawn :P
You were wrong, just like I was about vapor blade, try to deal with it like an adult.
IF I get around to it at some point, I will post the pics you're asking for, but since most of what you're asking for is utterly irrelevant, it's not exactly a priority. Right now, I'm gonna go mow my lawn :P
Azazello
Look at the pic and tell me again how bad derv heroes are. Better yet, post up your own times for those runs in that old thread. Ad hominem only 'works' if you've got a target. Hell, invoke lightning does less dps than burning, and it hits less targets. You're talking to me about embarrassing yourself?
AndrewSX
Quote:
Originally Posted by LexTalionis
Personally, I think rangers may show some promise - the energy issue is far from unsolvable and you only ever need 12 MMS at maximum anyway. They also have insane elemental resists. Going to tweak them and see.
Take a look at this, has very good ideas for a ranger team.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/e...t10473192.html
The only issue is...that hasn't anything to do with Eles. I mean, running 3 Rangers as Nec, for mopping, or Rit, splinter, is very good: but with Eles + Rangers there aren't much points of sinergy.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/e...t10473192.html
The only issue is...that hasn't anything to do with Eles. I mean, running 3 Rangers as Nec, for mopping, or Rit, splinter, is very good: but with Eles + Rangers there aren't much points of sinergy.
Jeydra
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azazello
In Rand, almost every pull has 6+ guys, even when you only pull one group at a time. Since deep freeze outdamages invoke at less than 6 guys, you're really clutching at straws now Jeydra, and I think you know it. Sticking to the 'you have to ball with heroes just because you said you could!' shit, even though it's completely irrelevant to whether deep freeze does more damage per cast than invoke. Telling me I have to run deep freeze on my necro, for whatever wonderful reason you have in your head. Ignoring the 9 mixed mobs balled in the first pic. Pretending that melee pulls aren't 'representative', as if only mixed pulls exist in the game. Who started with the 'unrepresentative' pics btw, with a shot of a 4pull in a VQ you could afk through?
You were wrong, just like I was about vapor blade, try to deal with it like an adult.
IF I get around to it at some point, I will post the pics you're asking for, but since most of what you're asking for is utterly irrelevant, it's not exactly a priority. Right now, I'm gonna go mow my lawn :P Call it what you want. Without considering the snare Deep Freeze is weaker than pre-nerf Chain Lightning. It's not waaaaay weaker the way Flare is relative to Rodgort's Invocation, but it is still weaker, although it's worth pointing out one more time that Flare does more DPS than Rodgort's Invocation. Don't feel like arguing further.
I might give Water Eles a run sometime in the future, but only when I find the motivation to do so (at the moment I have no reason to go kill Destroyers, so I don't go kill them).
@AriaFrost - took a close look at that teambuild. I think it's subpar. You have nothing to hold aggro with, so you'll be taking damage on your mass casters; that is not likely to be good even with a ST + SYG. Running Shatter Hex on the E/Me bars is also likely to be a big energy sink on a bar that already suffers strong energy drain when Elemental Attunement isn't up. I don't know how the energy situation is like at 16 Energy storage, but I'm still skeptical of using two Superiors. Does the hero maintain Vital Weapon, or does he only use it when the target starts taking damage? If the former, he'll be losing energy constantly and might not be able to juggle the energy on that bar; if the latter, it might be too late and the target get spiked dead.
I have tried using three Fire Eles in VQs and it's brutal against balled mobs, but the Dom Mesmers serve a crucial function in harder areas and there's a very noticeable difference between having two Dom Mesmers and one. At the moment, I think committing three character slots to an Invoke replacement is overdoing it in general; even before Invoke was nerfed I sometimes had to use only one Invoke Ele. One of the EA Fire and another of the E/Me SF Ele seems the ideal; I'll have to find somewhere else to slot a third "Fall Back!", though.
You were wrong, just like I was about vapor blade, try to deal with it like an adult.
IF I get around to it at some point, I will post the pics you're asking for, but since most of what you're asking for is utterly irrelevant, it's not exactly a priority. Right now, I'm gonna go mow my lawn :P Call it what you want. Without considering the snare Deep Freeze is weaker than pre-nerf Chain Lightning. It's not waaaaay weaker the way Flare is relative to Rodgort's Invocation, but it is still weaker, although it's worth pointing out one more time that Flare does more DPS than Rodgort's Invocation. Don't feel like arguing further.
I might give Water Eles a run sometime in the future, but only when I find the motivation to do so (at the moment I have no reason to go kill Destroyers, so I don't go kill them).
@AriaFrost - took a close look at that teambuild. I think it's subpar. You have nothing to hold aggro with, so you'll be taking damage on your mass casters; that is not likely to be good even with a ST + SYG. Running Shatter Hex on the E/Me bars is also likely to be a big energy sink on a bar that already suffers strong energy drain when Elemental Attunement isn't up. I don't know how the energy situation is like at 16 Energy storage, but I'm still skeptical of using two Superiors. Does the hero maintain Vital Weapon, or does he only use it when the target starts taking damage? If the former, he'll be losing energy constantly and might not be able to juggle the energy on that bar; if the latter, it might be too late and the target get spiked dead.
I have tried using three Fire Eles in VQs and it's brutal against balled mobs, but the Dom Mesmers serve a crucial function in harder areas and there's a very noticeable difference between having two Dom Mesmers and one. At the moment, I think committing three character slots to an Invoke replacement is overdoing it in general; even before Invoke was nerfed I sometimes had to use only one Invoke Ele. One of the EA Fire and another of the E/Me SF Ele seems the ideal; I'll have to find somewhere else to slot a third "Fall Back!", though.
Azazello
Agreed. The recharge alone makes it worse. It was the flat refusal to acknowledge any of its advantages, or those of any other skills, that has been bothering me throughout the thread. It's going to do less damage over time, simply because of the recharge, but that shouldn't automatically exclude it from being considered.
Oh, and although it's a bit pointless now, I said I would:
http://imageshack.us/f/85/gw061n.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/545/gw066m.jpg/
Oh, and although it's a bit pointless now, I said I would:
http://imageshack.us/f/85/gw061n.jpg/
http://imageshack.us/f/545/gw066m.jpg/
Xenomortis
Your screenshots show a ball of melee enemies next to a hero ball.
That is by no means surprising.
That is by no means surprising.
Azazello
I'm not seeing the problem though. Melee enemies exist. Hero ball is fine in most places. Shame I didn't take a SS of the 10 choking gas rangers on the way there. They ball up fine, they all just park their backsides as soon as they get in range of the casters.
Wenspire
Typically, all the enemy casters like to ball together. There are those exceptions in certain groups where some start kiting (like seen in slaver's at times).
Jeydra
Go ball the mixed mob in Duncan HM. Also those weren't the screenshots I was looking for. Ugh.
Deep Freeze has no advantages apart from the snare, which you never mentioned (and stuff like the ability to break Hex Breaker and draw hex removal, but that's really quite minor). Once mobs get so large that you can hit 5+ of them reliably with AoE spells, you're better off running Fire / Earth.
Deep Freeze has no advantages apart from the snare, which you never mentioned (and stuff like the ability to break Hex Breaker and draw hex removal, but that's really quite minor). Once mobs get so large that you can hit 5+ of them reliably with AoE spells, you're better off running Fire / Earth.
IchibanK
If you check the numbers and analyse the dpsc (damage per cast time - i.e. which spell is the most effective to cast at any given moment) you will find:
1. Deep Freeze actually requires 7+ targets to be better than Invoke Lightning at AL60 rising to 8+ targets at AL100.
2. Searing Flames (for example) requires 4+ targets to be better than Invoke Lightning at AL60 and AL100
Deep Freeze provides only 18% bar uptime, Invoke 30% and Searing Flames over 60%.
If you are using an element other than fire for your AoE damage then it should be because the conditions or effects that it brings outweighs the loss in damage.
1. Deep Freeze actually requires 7+ targets to be better than Invoke Lightning at AL60 rising to 8+ targets at AL100.
2. Searing Flames (for example) requires 4+ targets to be better than Invoke Lightning at AL60 and AL100
Deep Freeze provides only 18% bar uptime, Invoke 30% and Searing Flames over 60%.
If you are using an element other than fire for your AoE damage then it should be because the conditions or effects that it brings outweighs the loss in damage.
Azazello
One cast of searing flames will do more single target damage and more AE damage than one cast of invoke at AL 80 or more. The recharge allows it to replace both invoke and CL by itself, so you only need one more spell to replace lightning orb, or two longer recharge ones. Perhaps make it an AE spell to make up some of the damage loss subsequent casts of SF have compared to CL (on packs of 3 or less). Obviously SF eles have no trouble carrying [email protected] Seems to fit the 3 criteria, better single target, better ae, carries fallback. Unfortunately it doesn't fit the unlisted criteria requiring that mobs die in less than 3s, since the first SF cast takes 7s to do its damage, so SF has been out since page 2. SF is the spell that originally raised that objection.
Here's a horrible old idea that actually solves the problem though: glyph of immolation. Now SF is 'damage on demand', deals around the same single target damage as invoke (if you include 1 second of burning it's 3 less @AL 60, 5-6 [email protected] 80, of course it's more if the target survives longer than 1s), and more ae than invoke (although the AE still takes 7s I don't think that's been the issue). Plus it hits more targets (if the targets are there). As bad as it is, SF+GoI does more damage than invoke+CL. Can't really carry GoLE, but running out of energy occasionally is apparently fine. With the first second of burning from GoI added in there are quite a few spells that outdamage orb for the third spell too, but I'd use fireball, just in case the enemy happens to ball now and then. Replace shock arrow with glowing gaze and GoLE with whatever you like, throw on fire attune and AoR, done.
Of course that's a terrible build and you'd be better off with something else, but it does meet and exceed the criteria, including the fourth 'must not run out of energy too quickly', fifth 'must compress its damage into sub 3s packets', and sixth 'must deal its damage from normal spell range'. Same single target damage, more ae damage, can carry fall back. Seems outright superior to invoke. However it doesn't carry cracked armour and still leaves the issue with burning immune and fire resistant enemies. I don't think the improved damage output is going to make up for those problems, so I guess even with the obviously overpowered GoI, SF fails at the seventh criteria, 'must not use burning or fire damage', since there was a build that did that already in the OP.
@Jeydra, I mentioned the secondary effect on the previous page, and I am aware you didn't ask for that screenshot, I said I'd provide it since you didn't like the last one.
Here's a horrible old idea that actually solves the problem though: glyph of immolation. Now SF is 'damage on demand', deals around the same single target damage as invoke (if you include 1 second of burning it's 3 less @AL 60, 5-6 [email protected] 80, of course it's more if the target survives longer than 1s), and more ae than invoke (although the AE still takes 7s I don't think that's been the issue). Plus it hits more targets (if the targets are there). As bad as it is, SF+GoI does more damage than invoke+CL. Can't really carry GoLE, but running out of energy occasionally is apparently fine. With the first second of burning from GoI added in there are quite a few spells that outdamage orb for the third spell too, but I'd use fireball, just in case the enemy happens to ball now and then. Replace shock arrow with glowing gaze and GoLE with whatever you like, throw on fire attune and AoR, done.
Of course that's a terrible build and you'd be better off with something else, but it does meet and exceed the criteria, including the fourth 'must not run out of energy too quickly', fifth 'must compress its damage into sub 3s packets', and sixth 'must deal its damage from normal spell range'. Same single target damage, more ae damage, can carry fall back. Seems outright superior to invoke. However it doesn't carry cracked armour and still leaves the issue with burning immune and fire resistant enemies. I don't think the improved damage output is going to make up for those problems, so I guess even with the obviously overpowered GoI, SF fails at the seventh criteria, 'must not use burning or fire damage', since there was a build that did that already in the OP.
@Jeydra, I mentioned the secondary effect on the previous page, and I am aware you didn't ask for that screenshot, I said I'd provide it since you didn't like the last one.
Chthon
Very rarely do I agree with Gabs88, but in this I concur:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabs88
Quote:
Personally, I think rangers may show some promise - the energy issue is far from unsolvable and you only ever need 12 MMS at maximum anyway. They also have insane elemental resists. Going to tweak them and see.
Although I love rangers and wish they could be worthwhile heroes, I'm really dubious.
Stripping the old Invoke+CL hero down even more than Jeydra already did, you're looking for damage that's (1) big, (2) AoE, and (3) ranged. Let's take those in reverse order: OK, you've got #3. What about #2? You're forced into Barrage, Volley, or Incendiary Arrows(+Ignite Arrows). Now, what about #1?
Barrage is going to average in the low 40's per hit against 60AL. Compared to the 100+ that seems to be the goal, that's not too good. You can sacrifice a character slot to run Orders to bring it up by another 17, or a PvE skill slot for EBSoH to bring it up by 15, or both, but you're still only reaching the low 70's per hit. Sure, you can spam Barrage as fast as your bow recycles (although hero AI doesn't like to spam Barrage and there's no good IAS options for a hero ranger), but that's DPS rather than spiky punch. If DPS alone were the goal, everyone should be going gaga over my totally unoriginal SF builds. And they aren't.
Volley is strictly worse than Barrage.
Incendiary Arrows+Ignite Arrows can potentially do more damage if the monsters are clustered tightly, but it causes scatter and isn't spammable.
Of course, what you're probably thinking of is having your SoS cast Splinter on the rangers. That's some potentially big damage, but it's on a 5sec recharge. That's already somewhat worse than chain-casting Invoke+CL, and, more importantly, you're going to need to spec a second caster high into Channeling to get a second copy of Splinter to support a second ranger. Where are you going to find the space for that?
Finally, there's the AoE radius issue. None of the Ranger options except Incendiary Arrows(+Ignite Arrows) has a radius bigger than adjacent. THis makes it inferior to options like Rodgorts that can hit more spread out mobs. More importantly, the AoE from SPlinter does nothing at all without adjacent foes. If Rodgort's hits just one guy, you get no AoE, but at least you still hit one guy for 100+; If Splinter just hits one guy, it does nothing.
Stripping the old Invoke+CL hero down even more than Jeydra already did, you're looking for damage that's (1) big, (2) AoE, and (3) ranged. Let's take those in reverse order: OK, you've got #3. What about #2? You're forced into Barrage, Volley, or Incendiary Arrows(+Ignite Arrows). Now, what about #1?
Barrage is going to average in the low 40's per hit against 60AL. Compared to the 100+ that seems to be the goal, that's not too good. You can sacrifice a character slot to run Orders to bring it up by another 17, or a PvE skill slot for EBSoH to bring it up by 15, or both, but you're still only reaching the low 70's per hit. Sure, you can spam Barrage as fast as your bow recycles (although hero AI doesn't like to spam Barrage and there's no good IAS options for a hero ranger), but that's DPS rather than spiky punch. If DPS alone were the goal, everyone should be going gaga over my totally unoriginal SF builds. And they aren't.
Volley is strictly worse than Barrage.
Incendiary Arrows+Ignite Arrows can potentially do more damage if the monsters are clustered tightly, but it causes scatter and isn't spammable.
Of course, what you're probably thinking of is having your SoS cast Splinter on the rangers. That's some potentially big damage, but it's on a 5sec recharge. That's already somewhat worse than chain-casting Invoke+CL, and, more importantly, you're going to need to spec a second caster high into Channeling to get a second copy of Splinter to support a second ranger. Where are you going to find the space for that?
Finally, there's the AoE radius issue. None of the Ranger options except Incendiary Arrows(+Ignite Arrows) has a radius bigger than adjacent. THis makes it inferior to options like Rodgorts that can hit more spread out mobs. More importantly, the AoE from SPlinter does nothing at all without adjacent foes. If Rodgort's hits just one guy, you get no AoE, but at least you still hit one guy for 100+; If Splinter just hits one guy, it does nothing.
Azazello
Why is that? GoI+SF does more damage than invoke+CL, seems inoffensive enough, it's just facts. The point is that I could throw out dozens of random crap builds that deal more damage than invoke, but they're only going to get shot down because they're not invoke, just like every other suggestion that people have made. Perhaps we should clarify exactly what we're looking for instead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
Quote:
1. Ability to spec 9 points or more into a second attribute, e.g. Command Shouts.
2. Ability to bring heavy damage on demand to a single target.
3. Ability to output AoE damage as well. Ogliowm88LuZ4sdMAAAAAAA
2. Ability to bring heavy damage on demand to a single target.
3. Ability to output AoE damage as well. Ogliowm88LuZ4sdMAAAAAAA
Swingline
Invoke was good because with 3 IL heroes + your IL it could spike down 1-3 targets incredibly fast. Before the update this was far superior to any other ele spell. 40/40 sets made it even more brutal but now its a relic of the past. SF and EA fire are the champion Ele builds of today.