Replacing the Invoke Ele

Azazello

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2010

Exactly Chthon. But it fits the three criteria listed. BTW Swingline, are you sure we're talking about using 3 bars to do what 3 invokes did? I hadn't seen that mentioned, but there's plenty of ways to do that.

Wenspire

Wenspire

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2008

USA - W.Coast

HiME

Mo/

Actually, 3-4 barrage rangers attacking the same target (and group if there are enemies near target) does quite a bit of spike damage pretty quickly and even-more-so if Orders and/or ESoH is up. Considering recharge time of Barrage and bow attack speed, it holds it's own fairly well, IMO. Unfortunely, bow/melee users are hurt more by a larger number of hexes/conditions than casters.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azazello View Post
Exactly Chthon. But it fits the three criteria listed.
Forget the 3 criteria listed and look to the actual criteria. Jeydra and I already had a long discussion in which I was the one defending SF -- and I at least posted real, viable builds in support of it. The upshot is that SF isn't as spiky as Invoke+CL was, and that's reason to want something different for a Invoke+CL replacement.

The alternative is to run a different team configuration that pulls some spike power from somewhere else and relies on those two builds more for DPS. That's fine. That's what I do with my ele for 7H right now. It's just not replacing Invoke+CL.

Quote: You'd basically need a whole petway team to have enough pets to make a wall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenspire View Post
Actually, 3-4 barrage rangers attacking the same target (and group if there are enemies near target) does quite a bit of spike damage pretty quickly and even-more-so if Orders and/or ESoH is up. Considering recharge time of Barrage and bow attack speed, it holds it's own fairly well, IMO. Unfortunely, bow/melee users are hurt more by a larger number of hexes/conditions than casters. 3-4 Barrage rangers (which is really 4-5 counting the Orders) do not fit on a 7H team. You're going to be kicking off stuff like Panic and spirit/minion walls to make space for them, and that's not a very good trade.

Azazello

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2010

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chthon View Post
Forget the 3 criteria listed and look to the actual criteria. Jeydra and I already had a long discussion in which I was the one defending SF -- and I at least posted real, viable builds in support of it. How did that work out? You missed the fact that this is a QQ thread, not a search for viable builds. A new criteria will be added as a new build is suggested. Some quotes:

@Dervish + other melee - forgot to say a hallmark of Invoke Eles is that they deal damage at range. Dervishes do not.
@Searing Flames - this skill doesn't provide damage on demand. If I call a target, I expect him dead within 1.75s + 1.5s + 2.75s (EBVAS + AP + Lightning Orb).
@Discord - being conditional is a big strike against it as well because it forces me to AP
@Minions - already using them, difficult to use two MMs at full potential in many areas.
@Death magic - there aren't many good non-minion skills in Death Magic
@Curses - there're a few direct damage Curses spells, but they are all plagued by long recharge. Damage on demand isn't available.
@Icy Veins - if Death Magic and its array of damaging spells does not work, what good is Icy Veins, Signet of Sorrow and Angorodon's Gaze?
@Rits - I only have two Rits and they're both occupied too
@Mesmers - The drawback is the smaller spec in Command, and the fact that Dom Mesmers can use every point in Dom, FC and Inspiration
@Rangers - the spec for Rangers is difficult because you need 14 Expertise.
@Invoke - they don't get zeroed out, sure, but they stop casting Invoke. At some maximum energy the AI stops using Exhaustion spells.
@Fire - The big drawback with this is of course there are plenty of areas where monsters have absurd armour vs. Fire.
@Invoke vs shatterstone - more reliable AoE, lower recharge, heroes stack it against a target and will keep stacking it until the target dies
@Earth - Asking Earthquake and Dragon's Stomp to replace Invoke Lighting is like asking Koss to gather aggro like EFGJack. Single-target damage isn't spectacular either and mostly relies on projectiles

So we have ruled out warriors, assassins, and dervishes. We have ruled out soul reaping (on the basis that they can't put points in any other att for some reason), curses, and death necros. We have ruled out rits, rangers and mesmers. We have ruled out earth, water, fire, and air magic, so eles are out. Working with the 'actual criteria', if the new hero had not been added, all that is left are blood necros, monks, and paragons. Feel free to design a good AoE paragon build.

Do you see now why I think it's past time to clarify exactly what we want from the build?

The only real option left is the channeling rit, since we did get a new hero. Personally I think the att spread on a dom mesmer or emanagement on a ranger is doable, and I don't understand the objection to IV since it can sub death as I suggested, but apparently they're out.

LexTalionis

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2011

@Chthon

You post very many valid points against rangers which I actually do wholeheartedly agree with, but I was more thinking something along the lines of abusing the fact that pets have been quite significantly buffed though, akin to the petway teams. It makes a refreshing change from Necromancer Minions. Beast Mastery worked by removing AR from the targets the pet attacked, IIRC, and now that everything is at AR 60-77, a BM of say, 8 would be -40 = 20 armor vs a 60 AR target (I may be wrong on this!). Combine with the pet 33% damage buff and it might actually be quite interesting.

Of course, Melandru's Assault is still horribly bugged, but I was thinking something more along the lines of MoP abuse.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexTalionis View Post
@Chthon

You post very many valid points against rangers which I actually do wholeheartedly agree with, but I was more thinking something along the lines of abusing the fact that pets have been quite significantly buffed though, akin to the petway teams. It makes a refreshing change from Necromancer Minions.
Beast Mastery worked by removing AR from the targets the pet attacked, IIRC, and now that everything is at AR 60-77, a BM of say, 8 would be -40 = 20 armor vs a 60 AR target (I may be wrong on this!). What?!? Either you are explaining you meaning poorly or you totally misunderstand the mechanics. Please try to clarify what you mean.

LexTalionis

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2011

Quote:
What?!? Either you are explaining you meaning poorly or you totally misunderstand the mechanics. Please try to clarify what you mean. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Beast_Mastery

Negates armor rating on targets attacked by an animal companion. Up to a threshold rank of Level/2+2, five points are negated per rank, thereafter two points.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

Cthon your post about Rangers hit almost all the important points. I'll add that you can't spec 9 Command without skimping on Expertise or Marksmanship, both of which have severe consequences. Ranger damage is also affected by line of sight, which is a pretty major drawback. Roughly ~80 damage after armour should be good enough though.

Thing about the E/Me Mimicry bar is that if the hero chooses not to use SF, his other spells are all strictly damage-oriented (and in the case of Rodgort's Invocation, actually does more damage than SF). I think it's a worthy bar. It doesn't have Fall Back, so it's not a complete Invoke replacement even without considering monsters with huge armour vs. Fire, but it's possible to shift points around elsewhere and bring Fall Back on other heroes.

I've not seriously considered pets. I hear they suffer quite a bit from pet AI; the other big problem of course is that they're melee. AoE damage may also be lacking as well. A weird hybrid Incendiary Arrows bar with pets might work, but the spec is going to be hard - four attribute lines, unless the AI will use Incendiary Arrows even if it has no spec in Wilderness Survival (does it?).

Do you have a preliminary pet bar?

Gabs88

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2011

Pet bars I have like no clue about, but using a Strike as One pet bar could be pretty hillarious. Pets move instantly to their targets then

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

Must not forget though that committing the elite slot on a Ranger is a significant investment - it means you give up on Incendiary Arrows, Rampage As One, etc. If pets don't run fast enough it's probably possible to kick them there faster with Fall Back.

Elsewise I just unlocked Zei Ri, and now taking a look at all possible useful spells in Channeling Magic:

Agony - from experience it's not that strong but it's usable
Ancestor's Rage - likely stacks well, probably worth mainbar
Bloodsong - already used
Channeled Strike - if holding DWG or maybe Cruel was Daoshen this skill is probably going to be core, unless it pwns the hero's energy
Clamour of Souls - can't see it as worth it. 69 damage, even in an AoE, is just plain low
Cruel was Daoshen - basically this vs. DWG, depending on whether the elite is necessary
Destruction - nice animation, but from experience it's not that good
Destructive was Glaive - 20% armour penetration is going to be sweet, but according to Wiki the hero takes micro to actually use DWG. No idea if he actually drops it
Essence Strike - poor man's energy management
Gaze of Fury - probably worth mainbar
Lamentation - probably worth mainbar
Painful Bond - have this hero cast it instead of SoS and save an extra skill slot there?
Signet of Spirits - already used
Spirit Boon Strike - if Painful Bond ends up on this hero, this will likely take its place on the SoS
Spirit Burn - might be able to provide more burning for SF, not much use otherwise
Spirit Rift - I'm deeply skeptical of the cast time + delayed effect, although AoE cracked armour is great despite being only adjacent
Spirit Siphon - as always top tier energy management
Splinter Weapon - heroes cast this on minions apparently, but I don't notice it very often. I've seen Razah cast it on Vanguard Assassin as well, but very rarely.

That's it for Channeling Magic. There don't appear to be enough good skills around. A lot will depend on how good the spells are after armour penetration from DWG or Cruel was Daoshen. Spawning Power is quite barren and so is Communing. The rest of the bar might go to Rit heals or Command shouts; in the first case though the hero directly competes with N/Rt healers - actually worse, because it can't hold PwK.

Looks like I theorycrafted myself into a Rt/P hole ...

EDIT: DWG hero AI is ridiculous. I'm not sure this idea is worth pursuing. If it's going to take micro every minute, I might as well run two E/Me Mimicry Eles and micro Mimicry.
EDIT #2: Lex about Rupture Soul since you say heroes use it well - what's the point? Unless you've got Gaze of Fury to kill a spirit near enemy monsters (and even then it only works if the mob has spirits) I don't get the idea behind Rupture Soul.

LexTalionis

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Apr 2011

@Jeydra

Enemies usually end up balling around my spirits which are bodyblocking them. When this happens, heroes will hit them with rupture soul, blinding all of them for about 11 seconds while doing a lot of burst damage. Ironically, this keeps my other spirits alive for longer, because without rupture soul, they'd melee my spirits to death pretty quickly.

I'd like to point out the AoE effect is pretty large and the blind duration is ridiculously long. Turning every single spirit you have into a 110ish damage AoE shouldn't be underestimated - you also left out Explosive Growth, which really isn't that bad if you're minmaxing spike damage.

It also lets me use Vampirism as a PbAoE nuke if I wanted, but that's just silly.

Heroes do use Incendiary at 0-2 Wilderness Survival. Done that many times on Anton, who runs a pet >_> 0-2 is actually good for me because it triggers fragility more. Pets are quite unlike minions, they're obnoxiously difficult to kill in HM (80 AR, 33% Universal damage resistance) and they don't suffer from DP. Even at 0 BeastMastery, I'd still bring one in PvE.

I do silly builds.

Azazello

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Nov 2010

Agony is fairly decent. Including recharge times, @16 channeling and 10 spawning power it's 14-15 dps, assuming 2+ targets in earshot range. It gets pretty obnoxious with stuff like soul twisting or rit lord (not that heroes can use it), going up to 50ish dps if there are 5+ targets. You can get over 80 dps from it in theory, if not practice (10+ targets + soul twisting with no other spirits). The problem is that no matter what you do with it, it's pressure, it doesn't compress, it's not the damage on demand that you're looking for. You won't see big chunks go missing from red bars due to agony, it will just quietly tick away.

Similar damage on demand problems with arage and rupture, and pretty much all the high powered rit aoe actually. You can't just pick any target and blow him and everyone near him to bits. However, if you're now debating moving fall back onto other bars, there's all kinds of stuff you can do. Likewise if you're considering replacing two bars instead of just one, and especially if you're going to run 2 new bars neither of which has fall back.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by LexTalionis View Post
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Beast_Mastery

Negates armor rating on targets attacked by an animal companion. Up to a threshold rank of Level/2+2, five points are negated per rank, thereafter two points. It seems that you are the victim of an idiot wiki editor.

Let's try to set this right:

Beast Mastery functions exactly like weapon mastery, where the pet is a no-req, ~17-29 weapon. (Or ~15-25 for hearty; or ~20-32 for dire.) (All figures are potentially off by +/-1 due to possible rounding errors.)

That text from the wiki sounds like a mangled description of beast/weapon mastery. The increase ramp is correct, but the effect is wrong. Increasing mastery increases a variable usually called "baseline." Armor gets subtracted from baseline during the damage equation, so you could say that it "negates" armor, but that's misleading and leads people to interpret it the way you did -- as a subtraction from armor. It's not. Unless you invent negative armor, treating it as a subtraction from armor is going to give the wrong answer whenever you would hit zero armor. More importantly, it misled you about the fact that, just like weapon mastery, you need 12 points in beast mastery just to get base damage.

The 33% PvE pet buff is a straight multiplier applied after all buffs -- just like the old AScan.

I don't have a hero pet-based bar, and I'm not sure the AI problems are surmountable, but the obvious choice is to abuse the PvE pet buff by stacking lots of bonus damage. Good candidates would be SoH, GDW, Enraged Lunge, and Brutal Strike.

@Rupture Soul:
Silly player bar: Rt/Me; Channeling -> Cruel Was Doashen -> Boon of Creation -> Explosive Growth -> Soul Twisting -> Destruction -> Spirit Siphon -> Rupture Soul
Not sure if you could (or should) try to replicate that on a hero.

Kaida the Heartless

Kaida the Heartless

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2006

N/

Searing Flames gives slower instagib damage, but makes it easier to spike targets later in the fight (or even targets after the initial target in many cases).

Expertise/Marks Rangers give stupidly high on-demand single target DPS, but lack any AoE component (excluding Splinter Weapon in the party somewhere).

Mind Blast and Ele Attunement Ele's give a good combination of both.

Now, shift the rest of your party to accommodate whatever your choice of the above builds doesn't do very well. Invoke isn't getting completely replaced; it's a testament to the fact that Guildwars has many, many unique skills (which is ultimately a good thing!)

Aria Frost

Aria Frost

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2010

Italy

E/

@Jeydra

Vital Weapon is being applied when aggroing. Generally, such ST build is not heavy on energy, because shadowsong and anguish spirits last longer than union/displacement (allowing shelter to be resummoned more likely with ST up), and because each VW lasts long enough to not require frequent spamming (50s, during combat it's usually applied to at least half party).

Have you already tried the EA mimicry combined with Invoke+CL+Lighting Orb? Unless the energy issues are also due to heavy exhaustion, it could be a solution to keep up the blue bar. Also, Shock Arrow could be replaced with Glowing Gaze or Glowstone which have easier conditions to meet.

AndrewSX

AndrewSX

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2010

Italy, Turin

Lake

E/

OK. Did some test, and i've found out that,if you play meele, Doublecast skills are quite awesome.

Take a standard old invoke bar, trow in Gust and go nuts.
Same for DDragon, put it in a SF bar.

MoI have always the issue of having worst non-elite skillset atm, but the elite works quite good if you're looking for a snare.

SSheat: haven't tested too much cuz is a overkill defense when you have already a ST/ER and aegis+PS, but shouldn't have problem to fit in a UG+stoning bar.

If you're a caster Energy Boon could take place of the Bip maybe; but haven't tried anything yet on the field about this one.

About caster looking for dmg (old invoke) you'll have to drop something that invokers were abel to do prolly. SF hasn't FB and spikish dmg on demand, for example.

Researc must go on..

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Frost
View Post
@Jeydra

Vital Weapon is being applied when aggroing. Generally, such ST build is not heavy on energy, because shadowsong and anguish spirits last longer than union/displacement (allowing shelter to be resummoned more likely with ST up), and because each VW lasts long enough to not require frequent spamming (50s, during combat it's usually applied to at least half party).

Have you already tried the EA mimicry combined with Invoke+CL+Lighting Orb? Unless the energy issues are also due to heavy exhaustion, it could be a solution to keep up the blue bar. Also, Shock Arrow could be replaced with Glowing Gaze or Glowstone which have easier conditions to meet. I'm still deeply skeptical about Vital Weapon. Even if it's used well, it appears hard to slot into a team. ST Rits are by nature typically unnecessary, and it's not easy to squeeze damage from their bars either, unless I completely replace the SoGM (which I am loath to do). Anyone else tried Vital Weapon, can post results?

Also post-nerf Invoke doesn't run out of energy in the sense that its blue bar drops to zero, but rather that it exhausts itself to the point that it stops casting Invoke. Elemental Attunement doesn't help. Glyph of Energy would, but who's using it?

@Cthon - yes, the bar needs Glowing Gaze. I can't see the point in Lava Arrows; I dislike the skill because of its short range. Definitely will not run Earthen Shackles; the time taken to cast the snare is not worth its effects.

Mesmers can carry one Fall Back, but the sacrifice in FC / Inspiration is quite big. SoS can also carry one, but you'll have to find somewhere else to compensate for the healing. SoGM can definitely carry one, as can the EA Ele. MM can as well, but you will need to find Prot Spirit space elsewhere.

How's this look to you as a UA replacement (not Invoke)?

16 Channeling
10 Restoration
9 Command

Clamour of Souls [E]
Ancestor's Rage
Death Pact Signet / Flesh of my Flesh / Signet of Return
Protective was Kaolai
Spirit Light
Mend Body And Soul
"Fall Back!"
Spirit Siphon / Essence Strike

I was considering Gaze of Fury + Restoration somewhere, but I really have no idea (not tested) how well heroes use Gaze to kill Restoration for res.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post
I can't see the point in Lava Arrows; I dislike the skill because of its short range.
Lava Arrows was buffed to full range ages ago.

As compared to Immolate:12 less damage on the primary target (@18 fire) no burning on the primary target (probably irrelevant since the SF-mimicry guy is causing longer burning) hits 2 extra foes in nearby range twice as spammable
  • 5e cost instead of 10e (irrelevant unless EA+FA are stripped, since net cost is 1e for both 5e and 10e spells) projectiles can be stopped by walls
    Again, I'm looking at this for the EA build only. Lava Arrows would only distract the SF-mimicry guy from casting SF.

    Quote:
    How's this look to you as a UA replacement (not Invoke)? I run UA so rarely it's hard for me to say.

    Quote:
    I was considering Gaze of Fury + Restoration somewhere, but I really have no idea (not tested) how well heroes use Gaze to kill Restoration for res. Not that it fits in this discussion, but you mentioning Restoration gave me an idea. This would be a fantastic rez for a ST build. Just recast it to kill the first spirit.

    Jeydra

    Forge Runner

    Join Date: May 2008

    Lol, I'm an idiot. I'll try out Lava Arrows. Being spammable may not be an advantage though, if the AI winds up casting it more often than it does (say) Rodgort's.

    Tried using the 3rd Mesmer, the difference between the EA Fire and the third Mesmer is noticeable, although not very big, in general. So it's not a complete replacement - forcing 7 points into Command means you have to fail the breakpoint on Fast Casting, as well.

    Plutoman

    Krytan Explorer

    Join Date: Jul 2010

    E/

    Just came back recently to play a bit of GW with the advent of the beta, and was looking for an adequate replacement. It was very obvious off the start that invoke lacked its initial power.

    I've not really found anything successful; anything fire related tend to be weak against large groups of mesmers. I'm not initially sure of what the difference is, as invoke is a 1s cast, chain is 2s, l-orb is 2s.. The lack of adequate utility slots while maintaining a fairly spammable chain of damage on a fire ele is frustrating, too. Just the swap to a fire ele or two caused immediate wipes against Wind Riders in EotN (assuming no micro, if I set up properly it was simple enough - but the point is in the comparison, not the fact) while invoke ele's, even post-update, served just fine against at least 1 group.

    Invoke had the unique spread of a solid spike damage, a nearby AoE (while limited, it was more than enough for most situations and served as a single-target spike, too), an additional two damage skills for more spike support, and easily 3-4 utility skill slots with 8-10, sometimes 12, ranks in the utility attribute. 12, assuming a skill such as BiP is used (standard in my own team).

    Have yet to find a good replacement for it - it was the rounded finishing point to a team, where you could fill any niche required without losing damage.

    Jeydra

    Forge Runner

    Join Date: May 2008

    Wind Riders are nasty, especially if you ball up into their stacked Cry of Frustrations. Invoke Eles are just as vulnerable though. Not sure what's causing your wipes.

    Anyway I've more or less come to the conclusion that the best replacements for Invoke Eles are the E/P EA Fire template and some strange hybrid N/P bar. This is what I have at the moment (that is, equipped on my hero):

    11 Death Magic
    11 Soul Reaping
    8 Command

    Icy Veins [E]
    Deathly Chill
    Masochism
    Putrid Bile
    Deathly Swarm
    "Fall Back!"
    "We Shall Return!"
    Signet of Sorrow

    Stack up on the Minors and Majors and Superiors however you want to. I dislike the dual spec on the damage skills, but no choice: Discord, while decent, needs to be used more by heroes + it's conditional. At least Masochism buffs both damage attributes, and high Soul Reaping means the hero will always be able to use "Fall Back!". Some variant of this is probably the best cold damage replacement for an Invoke Ele.

    It's very possible that this bar can be improved, in particular skills like Blood of the Master, Death Nova, "Stand Your Ground!", "Never Surrender!", an Animate spell, Signet of Return and even Res Sig are all possibilities. But it's a hero I use rarely, even more rarely since I barely use my heroes at all these days, so yeah.

    Elsewise the E/Me Mimicry bar is great for damage (balled mobs die noticeably faster with two Mimicry Eles) but I generally never have the room to use it.

    Premium Unleaded

    Wilds Pathfinder

    Join Date: Aug 2005

    Wouldn't 11/10/9 be better for FB's breakpoint?
    And which skill would be the one to swap out if putrid exploson were to be taken?

    Gabs88

    Desert Nomad

    Join Date: Jan 2011

    Jeydra is probably using 11+1+3 and 11+3 runes there to top off the damage. In that case missing FB's breakpoint is not too importaint.

    Plutoman

    Krytan Explorer

    Join Date: Jul 2010

    E/

    The Necro bar has a few interesting possibilities. I would most probably run with a /Mo and go secondary protection myself, but that's merely a personal preference. Half the time I'm vanquishing I'm rolling a conset just for the sake of it anyways, so FB is not usually the most important part.

    IV has some potential there, so I'll give it a try. I'm disliking the lack of extra slots on the Fire EA bars, as I've generally run them as mixed utility and the lack of adequate spots for those utility skills is frustrating. The only skill with a recharge that's manageable is fireball, annoyingly enough. No armor penetration, either. Mainly, though, the lack of utility slots is the killer as that's where I've stored a chunk of my protection skills. Dual-backline w/ BiP & shelter + 2 invoke/prot's, and a triple mesmer base w/ e-surge/, dom/ill mixes, dealt a heck of a punch against most anything.

    Wind riders; I'm nigh positive it's the reduction of utility skills that's causing the general fault. I was running several fast-cast protection spells, and having to cut back to just one or two on each ele hurt dramatically.

    When it comes down to it, adding fourth, sometimes fifth, mesmer is usually the best bet I'm finding, but that necro bar has potential. Great e-management, too. Doubt I'll ever bring back an MM, though. Maybe another rit.. I could always throw in an SoS or SoGM bar *shrug*

    In the meantime, I'll run my few vanquishes, keep my modding of skyrim up (nice little past time..) and just see how the heroes go. Also see how the next ele update goes, too.

    Jeydra

    Forge Runner

    Join Date: May 2008

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded View Post
    Wouldn't 11/10/9 be better for FB's breakpoint?
    And which skill would be the one to swap out if putrid exploson were to be taken? You really don't want to copy that build because it is completely experimental ... I mean it works, but its exact skills are very likely subpar. The first skill to drop is probably Signet of Sorrow, "We Shall Return!" isn't too good either. As for Putrid Explosion, I really want to use it too but doesn't it conflict with the MM?

    I have 8 spec on Command because I already have two 9-spec Commands and the third Fall Back only needs to cover a few seconds of downtime. It's still better to have 8 Command over 3 because every now and then I hit "Fall Back!" and the hero with it isn't in range of me, so I trigger the next one, etc.

    What exact teambuild are you running Plutoman?

    Another idea I could use is both "Incoming!" and "Fall Back!", compensating for the lack of useful Death elites, and then spec out the third Fall Back for something else. Not very confident about that, though.

    Plutoman

    Krytan Explorer

    Join Date: Jul 2010

    E/

    Replacing something like this;




    Sort've an approximation, I've been away for a while. Reverse Hex could be swapped with Remove hex if needed, but energy's not too much of an issue.

    Thinking I'd be best off swapping in some more mesmers with some utility tacked on, or trying out that necro bar. Might be able to rework the fire ele bar a bit, take 5 core skills, ele attune + 4 damage skills, and roll 3 utility, but I haven't really tested anything.

    Guess I'll give a few things a try and see how they work. Haven't worked on these bars in a long time.

    Edit: Not too bad, invoke's horrid on the exhaustion though. Ran Raisu @ 12:05 with wrong runes (all the wrong skills had superior runes.. no attributes over 12), wrong equipment, no speed boosts (including FB), no skipped mobs, and stopping to pick up holiday drops. Had everything set up for the AFK GoM runs, wasn't going to spend the cash or time to switch it back. Definitely needs an alternative, though, energy management was horribly inefficient with the exhaustion.

    Gabs88

    Desert Nomad

    Join Date: Jan 2011

    Ehm, just to comment on that teambuild, since there's so much I don't like I'm just gonna comment on the parts i think is plain wrong:
    5x ress = too much
    3x Mistrust = Too much in my experience, 2 is the sweet spot.
    Invoke Eles = Don't use em, they stop casting once their exhaustion builds up a bit, if you wanna do air use Elemental Attunement instead, they can handle 1x Chain Lightning Alright
    Spiritual Pain and Unnatural Signet = Great skills!
    Hex removal is nice but unnessesary for casters.

    Plutoman

    Krytan Explorer

    Join Date: Jul 2010

    E/

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gabs88
    View Post
    Ehm, just to comment on that teambuild, since there's so much I don't like I'm just gonna comment on the parts i think is plain wrong:
    5x ress = too much
    3x Mistrust = Too much in my experience, 2 is the sweet spot.
    Invoke Eles = Don't use em, they stop casting once their exhaustion builds up a bit, if you wanna do air use Elemental Attunement instead, they can handle 1x Chain Lightning Alright
    Spiritual Pain and Unnatural Signet = Great skills!
    Hex removal is nice but unnessesary for casters. Beyond the fact that I haven't played much...

    1) 5x rez is definitely not too much considering 80% of my play is in areas when I lose if I wipe.
    2) Depends on how they are used. If consistently calling targets, it can be a bit overwhelming - still useful, though. Better than many other skills. If left to their own devices, it goes on multiple different enemy casters (heroes will lock on single targets via standard AI priority, if not called). However, it's a good point and considering something like an unnatural signet could be better.
    3) Been away for a while. Notice the first line - I'm trying to replace them.
    5) Again, area-dependent.

    I usually change skills on entering most areas. It's only an approximate framework for a build. I rarely just load and play.. builds were the reason I enjoyed this game. I always look at the enemies I face and load up on blind, hex removal, hexes, daze/interruption, depending on what the dangerous enemies in an area are. You get the idea.

    Anyways: Not to get all defensive (guess I have, a bit), but play-style determines a build more than anything else. There's definite reasons I've chosen most of the skills (spirits, minions, intentionally avoided, for example). Builds based more defensively, but a similar concept, completed the DoA foundry HM as an ele primary running invoke, without cons. :P

    Now, on to my issue. An adequate replacement for the ele's. Air is not an adequate line without invoke being used; thunderclap and blinding surge are sometimes useful, but only in more niche situations when I need the conditions (an ineptitude often covers blind). The rest of the air line is very weak, involving only two reasonably good skills. Fire is obviously the next possibility; earth lacks damage and casting time, water lacks damage extensively. Fire has weaknesses; namely, lack of armor penetration, lack of immediate spike damage, adjacent AoE on many spells. Less utility slots, as I need 4 skills to maintain a set of damage line-up.

    In choosing a fire replacement for the invoke ele line-up; what's the preferred replacement? Preferably, in a manner to maintain the defensive protection line-up, with an appropriate attribute spread. 4 fire skills, ele attunement, 3 prot skills/para skills? 3 fire, glyph of ele power, ele attunement, 3 others? Should fire attunement be used alongside ele attunement? The skills are higher energy, and protect skills are energy-intensive, but a BiP backs them also.

    What about that necro bar? Enough damage on the death magic line-up? IV requires a hefty investment into SR, while DM contains most of the damage spells - this of course immensely hurts any secondary potential, but an 8-spec could be ran with some appropriate runes. They'd be runed high to keep aggro off the BiP and ST (as the mesmers are). I'm considering this off the top of my head, finals next week and my circuits final is worth 40% of my grade, not to mention Diff EQ... so not much time to test out other combinations.

    Swingline

    Swingline

    Forge Runner

    Join Date: Sep 2010

    Somewhere far away from you

    The Mirror of Reason[SNOW]

    W/

    Don't put a rez on a healer unless its UA. If another hero is taking spike damage while the healer is stuck in a 4 sec rez cast its going to get bad.

    My current team setup is:

    2x EA fire eles: 16 Fire, 10 ES, 9 Command - 40/40 fire sets
    ----------------
    Rodgort's Invocation
    Liquid Flame
    Fireball
    Meteor
    Elemental Attunement
    Fire Attunement
    Aura of Restoration
    Fallback

    x1 VoR/Panic Mesmer: 16 Dom, 10 FC, 10 Insp - 40/40 Dom set
    ----------------
    Visions of Regret(Panic when I need mass shutdown)
    Cry of Frustration
    Unnatural Sig
    Shatter Enchantment
    Shatter Hex
    Waste Not, Want Not
    Power Drain
    Flesh of my Flesh

    x1 ST Prot Rit: 16 Communing, 13 SP, 3 Insp - +60/+5e^50 staff
    ----------------
    Soul Twisting
    Shelter
    Displacement(cancelled and micro'd)
    Inspired Hex
    Revealed Hex
    Hex Eater Signet
    RBoon of Creation
    Flesh of my Flesh

    IV Necro Rit healer: 15 SR, 12 Resto, 7 Curses - 40/40 Resto set
    ----------------
    Icy Veins
    Weaken Armor
    Signet of Lost Souls
    Mend Body & Soul
    Spirit Light
    Soothing Memories
    Protective was Kaolai
    Life

    SoS/Resto Hybrid Rit: 16 Channeling, 12 Resto, 7 Spawning - 40/40 Resto set
    ----------------
    Signet of Spirits
    Bloodsong
    Splinter Weapon
    Spirit Channeling
    Mend Body & Soul
    Spirit Light
    Protective was Kaolai
    Rejuvenation

    AoL MM: 16 Death Magic, 10 SR, 9 Command - 40/40 Death set
    ----------------
    Aura of the Lich
    Animate Bone Minions
    Signet of Lost Souls
    Masochism
    Deathly Swarm
    Putrid Bile
    Stand Your Ground
    Fall Back

    If running melee switch the MM to /mo, put 9 in smiting and bring S&H

    Plutoman

    Krytan Explorer

    Join Date: Jul 2010

    E/

    That would thus imply dropping two damage skills. FA's a rap, it's not needed for e-management. Probably keep AoR and drop a damage skill. Been running leg survivor's at the GoM and haven't done anything else.

    Tess80

    Ascalonian Squire

    Join Date: Sep 2010

    Me/

    I've been running a Water necro lately:

    Water Trident
    Blurred Vision
    Deep Freeze
    Maelstrom
    *optional
    *optional
    Glyph of Lesser Energy
    Water Attunement

    With 12 water magic and 10+1+1 soul reaping, this leaves enough for a secondary attribute. Water has a few solid skills though (Steam if your team causes fire, Rust for AoE damage and signet hate, Ice Spikes for an AoE and snare), so I usually bring those, but good options are also in the curses/blood trees, and even bringing Blinding Flash is viable at 8 Air Magic.

    Also, you can replace Water Trident with Shatterstone, but I find Water Trident to be more effective, and the knockdowns trigger often, especially when enemies are snared.

    Gabs88

    Desert Nomad

    Join Date: Jan 2011

    If you're gonna be running something like that it's better to make a build for a primary ele. It's significantly more damage.