The Perversion of Guild Wars

Ow, I must be doing something wrong then, I still play missions with 8 people and having fun doing it.

Anyway, how can the activities of others spoil a gaming experience for you? Who cares if and how people farm? Someone wants to solo Perdition Rock? Good for them, doesnt matter one iota to me.

Don't blame me, Im anti-farming.

Unlike most people I still have my innocence, I have never farmed, I have never used an exploit for my advantage, I do not rip off other builds, I do not steal drops, I have never scammed anyone... Well you get the point.

Really? That must mean I never farm... I go to FoW for the XP and hell of it, and I do UW runs with a friend to practice our teamwork and for the quests, don't really care whether we get drops or not.

The 'problem' is the attitude of certain players. For those that don't have a poor attitude, like the complainers in this thread, there is no problem.

I've been doing 2 man UW with a friend for months, and I still have as much fun playing with them as I did when I got the game, if not more due to our synergy of teamwork.

I will bet you any item in my account that you can't do some of the reduced group trips that me and my 'newb' friends do, while still having fun. Guess that makes you the newb of newbs.

The way I see it, if ArenaNet didn't want people to farm, they wouldn't have made FoW armor cost a million+ gold. Because, outside of farming, there is simply no realistic way of attaining it. Logic, then, would tell us that farming is an intentional part of the game for those who choose to do it. And if ArenaNet doesn't take steps to stop such-and-such build from being used, you have to wonder if they have anything against it to begin with.

Personally, I think it's a bit silly that it's possible to solo end game areas like the FoW, but I don't have anything against people who do it. They found a build that works and are good enough to play it correctly, so good for them. If there's a problem, I think it's more with the level design (as in, why isn't a group level 28 baddies powerful enough to kill a single level 20 player?) than with skill exploitation.

But with that out of the way, I have to agree, there really isn't anything else like starting up a new game and exploring a new world. After your first character, that magical feeling is gone. Then you have to turn to other ways of finding entertainment within the game or stop playing. Myself, I got a lot of fun out of playing through the game (or at least most of the game) with each of the professions. But I also enjoy working towards a goal, such as farming to get FoW armor.

So here's looking forward to Factions. I plan on start a new character (the Assassin looks like fun) and keeping her isolated from my chapter 1 characters until she's beaten the chapter 2 compaign. No trading of gold, no trading of items, nothing -- she'll be on her own, using the best of the weapons I pick up as drops and scrounging money for armor just like my first chapter 1 character. Having four high level characters is fun, but I also miss being a newbie.

Yeah. That's exactly the attitude the OP is complaining about.

You see, he doesn't see this as a race to the finish line, for you getting there first, or with the most money, or the most expensive green items, or four full sets of FoW armor, or whatever, is what's fun. You're a competitive player, he, and I, aren't. E.g. I find exploring the world and overcoming challenges fun, and don't care at all about how much money I've got. But that's getting harder and harder as the game is settling into nothing but rigid farming with cookie-cutter builds.

That this thread has come to be about soloing and/or farming is unfortunate, because it's not really about that. It's about why one plays the game.

If you don't care about money, and you don't care about drops, why do you care about what other people are doing with what builds?

There is no lack of totally random PuG groups to FoW / UW, and you can explore with like-minded friends or henchmen. I've always played a game because I enjoy it, and if i don't, i quit.

Most others have their certain playstyle because they enjoy it too. The only attitude I'm growing to dislike besides the rampant flaming jerks (who actually are quite amusing nowadays) is those of yours, complaining on the 'ethics' of the game.

If you think the game requires a 'rigid farming build' then how is it I get into PuGs with my mesmer? I'm fairly sure my dom/illu build isn't a farming setup, and it most certainly isn't rigid because I change it constantly to suit how I want to play it.

This thread is baseless, and all I see it as is self-absorbed whinging. Flame off.

I don't. Like I said, this isn't an anti-farming rant, hell I sometimes farm myself, it's simply lamenting the early days when _everyone_ were teaming and exploring. Like I said in a previous post, the best one can do is avoid transferring ones own jadedness on newbies.

Actually it's very hard to find a PuG for exploration in FoW/UW, and as a result I *do* play with like-minded friends & henchmen.

Hm. Where have I been complaining about the ethics of the game?

Go to Sorrows Furnace, or to UW/FoW, and you'll find it's infinitely easier to find a PuG if you're a bonder, a stance/geartank, a MM or SS necro, a healer. That's because those are part of the rigid flavor-of-the-month cookie-cutter farming build.
Yeah, this is absolutely true. It is nothing more than whinging about the good old days before optimal gaming tactics were discovered.

Of course there will be some difference in game experience, as the population grows in experience on average there will be a change. Playing with casual PvE friends and guildies can keep the situation you prefer intact however. I spent a while doing Abbadon's and Hell's with a bunch of PvE guildies earlier, was great fun and we all brought whatever skills we wanted.

If mesmers can find a group for FoW/UW, then the other classes can

The only problems I have is too few groups that go beyond smites and too few that go beyond forge, but usually any group that stops there isn't strong enough to survive much further. I've dragged several groups to the burning forest in FoW if we work well together, usually involving antics of insanity as we are slaughtered (PuGs ftw!)

Ethics wasn't the best word to use. What I meant was the attitudes of how some people prefer to farm and rush around, not exploring, compared to those who prefer to do everything, such as the OP.

I avoid SF with regards to PuGs entirely, because I am, and always have been, a mesmer player (I play necro for 2man uw / 3man fow trips with guildies, all other times I stay on mes). I still manage to go to FoW quite often, and if you think Mesmers are a flavor of the month build, then meh.

I think I missed the part where using optimal tactics and maximizing your character's capabilities with builds meant you couldn't have fun.

Yes of course. Again, AFAI can tell all the OP's post was, was a lament that this was unavoidable.

Not my experience, but I can't stand spamming "LFG" for too long either.
Possibly the word you're looking for is 'elitism', because I suspect that's what I'm guilty of when I feel that exploring & doing everything, and taking perhaps two months to finish the PvE campaign, is a better way to play than burning through the PvE in a week, most of it carried by high-level players, and then farming, farming, farming, farming... and complaining about how boring the PvE is.

It doesn't. That the game is settling into rigid optimal builds DOES however limit your choices of playing style and build, unless you play with like-minded or henches.

I don't spam LFG, I wait till I see a group LFM and join them

Perhaps. I finished the PvE on mesmer without running, and am working on finishing all the bonuses. I've never felt remotely concerned about cookie-cutterness, perhaps because I play a mesmer and there is nothing cookiecutter about PvE messing.

Play a Mes, or a demibuild. A SS necro only needs SS to be considered as thus, that gives you 6 slots (with a res) to do whatever you like with. (And no, full group SS necros don't need echo, its a waste). The problem is more that people are less willing to devise their own builds now that so many that clearly work are available.

I farm when I need something, like a certain green, for my PvP chars.

This is "Guild" "Wars" afterall...

FOTM. IWAY. That's what I'd at least have to say. The use of builds that aren't their own just to win rank. Now it's pointless.

Quoted for truth, sadly. Why is it that so many games anymore are people trying to prove how "leet" they are and how "nub, n00b, noob, etc." everyone else is? What ever happened to play for the sake of entertainment? I've enjoyed the Prophecies campaign, as tedious as some of it was (THK, anyone?) and am looking forward to the time I'll spend in Cantha. Nothing wrong with taking your time and enjoying the scenery; nothing wrong with being run and skipping half the tale. IMO, what a shame that the latter choose to miss out on a lot of neat stuff.

::goes back to lurking::

Exactly why people are going to fill up the area as A/Rt and Rt/A. At least I know that will be the case for me. I don't want to use old classes and old crap for this entirely new adventure with an entirely new character. Sadly, there will be like 2 variations of characters, but oh well, I still think I'll enjoy it as an individual gamer just trying to have fun.

[QUOTE=Desbreko]The way I see it, if ArenaNet didn't want people to farm, they wouldn't have made FoW armor cost a million+ gold. Because, outside of farming, there is simply no realistic way of attaining it. Logic, then, would tell us that farming is an intentional part of the game for those who choose to do it. And if ArenaNet doesn't take steps to stop such-and-such build from being used, you have to wonder if they have anything against it to begin with.
/QUOTE]

You don't *need* Fissure Armor! It's there so the mindless farmers have something to buy. Everything you *need* is easily and cheaply attainable. This is because ArenaNet designed a game were you don't need to farm for money or items to be just (or nearly) as powerful as those who do.

good diety, not another antiFoW rant, just because you don't want to work for.....

I figure in factions Ill choose a class that i havent played yet really mixed with assassin or ritualist, so that way Im still starting something new. Like a N/A or Me/Rt.

it isn't an anti-fow rant, read topic pls

There a certain innocence in being n00b
(referring to me)

I've thought about this too. Hopefully, though, Factions will attract enough new players to fill in the other professions. Or, if not, I guess there's always henchies.

Where exactly did I say that you need FoW armor? Certainly nowhere in the paragraph you quoted. I think you missed my point.

What I was saying was that ArenaNet put FoW armor in the game. And since they put it in, they obviously meant for people to buy it. After all, what would be the point of putting something in the game if people weren't meant to be able to get it? It would be a waste of development resources. So obviously ArenaNet meant for people to be able attain FoW armor; they don't need it, but it's there for people to get if they want it.

Now, with that fact established, think about the price of FoW armor: a million gold or more. But just playing through all the missions -- even playing through all the missions four times, once on each of your character slots -- isn't going to get you a million gold. How, then, does ArenaNet expect anyone to ever get enough gold to buy FoW armor? Well, if playing through the storyline doesn't do it, there's only one other option. And that is farming.

So, as I said before, logic tells us that ArenaNet expects people to farm if they want to buy FoW armor. If they didn't, they would have either lowered the price of FoW armor, or increased drop rates, so that you could amass the necessary gold just from playing through the game. But they didn't do either, and thus we can conclude that ArenaNet considers farming a valid part of the game.

Possible answer: Factios and the two new chapters per year. That should be plenty ofnew material for you.

As far as innocence go? Have you been to planet Earth lately? Thier ain't no innocence here.

Anyway, Here's where Anet went wrong, and please correct me if I'm wrong. Anet set up a free trade system with no legitimate way to make money. When ppl started running and farming to make money, Anet nerfed everything. If Anet didn't want ppl to farm, they shouldn't have made item/money drops in the first place. I think that's why we're seeing Factions have Alliances fighting for resource points.

I think ppl are farming and running because Anet failed to properly set up a system that didn't rely on capitalism. Any economist would have told them that this wouldn't have worked. I, for one, like free trade and capitalism and running and farming and etc. But that clearly wasn't what Anet had in mind. Hopefully Factions will be a better solution.

Since you keep going back to FoW armor in your posts for some reason, which has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You at least need to understand that FoW armor is only 60k plus materials. You are giving misinformation when you keep posting its a million gold . Before SF was introduced. FoW/UW was the only repeatable content in the game, put there as a time killer between chapters for people who actually completed the storyline.You only need to play the game as designed and you will get the materials for FoW armor as they are free and only require the time required to do the quests. I do the 11 quests in FoW about 2-3 times a week and UW about once a month there is even a quest down there I have been unable to beat still and provides challange eight months of owning this game. In playing the game as designed I have had the materials for FoW armor pass though my hands more than a couple of times. Never had to come up with a million gold.

The probelm is when you go to make a PUG to clear the quests for these areas. You have people with 170 attribute points instead of 200(causing them to be weaker than a level 20 should be), no skills to choose from (because the only reason they made the toon was to farm and only brought skills for some farming build, leading them to lie about their skill bar to keep from being booted), and a map full of Fog. All because they got ran though the game in record time. All this leads to disaster when attempting the missions for the average player. I have taken many people though the FoW and done all 11 quests giving lots of players the knowledge to do it themselves and take the knowledge back to their guilds. Yet weeks or months later people who have grouped with me are unable to duplicate the runs. I ask them why and they tell me stories of 20,30, 40 failed attempts to organise PUGS and how they all crumble.

My only conclusion is in the rush to farm people lose the regular skills used to play the game or never pick them up at all. Especially the newer generation of players post runners. They must realize at some point that they are unable to complete the quests because they have no foundation which you get from playing the game though with your class as designed, and give up trying in frustration, thus become permanent farmers who could care less about skills, quests and XP, which are the root of PVE.

I am not against farming and and love a simple UW trapping run myself on occassion. But something has been lost in this game because many people cannot complete a quest if they wanted to yet they can solo 500 griffins or whatever. This is neither good or bad , its just the way it is.

Um..so how much money do you 'legitimately' need then?

I've found that even with paying for a runner and buying Droknar armor I have just as much by the time I ascend as I had before I paid a runner and got my Droknars armor. I didnt run anyone nor did I farm anything in between.

Not to mention I could have kept all that money and gone for collector items/weapons, what exactly do you need lots of money for if you just play the game as it was designed?
I get all that money legitimately, if I wanted a specific green item I could also do the work and get it myself.

PS: Anet is not opposed to farming or running, they just feel you need to earn it.

Would you prefer the Diablo II economy? Hopelessly outclassed if you don't have superb equipment, entire economy based on rare random drops? Would you prefer to have all items priced in rare 15>50s (like sojs or pdsc on d2) rather than plat?

I have always found the guild wars economy comfortable, easy enough to get what you need without too much effort, and vastly superior to many online games.

same here, I've played games like d2 etc... and GuildWars is far superior when it comes to a balanced economy

i would say that saying it is only 60K is misinformation, the 60K base price is irrelivent, as the materials cost orders more than this (well over a million, Oh, wait a second..)

Ectos=Gold, Simple as

omg, when will people stop bitching about what others do and just play the damned game for themselves. why is it that we have to have a new thread every other day about this same topic.

All of the various posts in this thread make me chuckle.

1. To those that complain about farming, you have to sit back and say "Why does this upset me?" That falls into three categories:

-- Jealousy. The farmers have tons and tons of gold, and I have none. They can afford the most expensive items (like FoW armor), and I can't. It's not fair. :stompsfoot:

-- Drops. Although this is arguable, I would say that this should NOT affect they way you play the game, since the best equipment out there is only slightly better than the collector's items.

-- Playing with Others. Like the Map Travel example above, it causes the quality of PuG's to decline. Honestly, if you do PvE with a max group, there are only a handful of missions that you should have difficulty with EVEN with a bad PuG.

If I missed one, please elaborate how farming affects YOU.

2. For all of those who say "I've done everything in the game, so now all I can do is farm." I call B.S. on this one. If you have not SOLOED the game, without henchmen, without using a 55HP whatever (Monk, Necro, Elementalist, etc.), then you have not "run out of things to do". Start by trying to solo Grenth's Footprint. Or one of the desert/southern shiverpeak missions. Don't resign yourself to "it's impossible".

That's the beauty of GuildWars...it's easy enough to complete with massive groups, but it's hard as all get out if you make it your personal challenge to do it alone. A great example of this is Racintoh's soloing the FoW with a warrior thread. He played with his build and the various skills until he found a way to do it. And I bet that he now has an intimate knowledge of most of the skills that most of us have just "glanced over"...the thrill and agony of trial and error can expand the enjoyment of this game tenfold.

I have played this game over 1,000 hours, don't play much PvP (only for a change once in a while), and have only "farmed" for ONE IDS (which I did for a challenge to see if I could do it with the buffs). And I'm still having a blast, starting JUST my second character (a N/Me that is soloing everything as well).

Naturally this is what I must do. I must let everyone play the game the way they want to play it. They're using the game as ANet designed it and it is not my place to stop them.

But...

Sigh...

It's just a bummer, sometimes, when I want to play "legit". Case in point: Go to Divinity Coast or Gates of Kryta or The Wilds. Find a PUG consisting of 100% "is not wearing drok armor" folks. This is somewhat difficult to do. Playing Gates of Kryta with a W/Mo in 15k, when you're trying to play a legit, "hasn't been run anywhere, hasn't touched storage, only used what i've found so far for the challenge of it all" character ruins the whole game for me. So I use henchies, and henchies suck. So I try to find other "legit" PUGs out there, and I get called a clueless noob because I *haven't* been run to drok.

No, I'm not terribly upset and I'm not losing any sleep over it, it's just a bit of a bummer sometimes.

And Kimi's still legit, btw... Sanctum Cay is next. ;-)

OK... uh... I really must have missed the quest that awards 105 globs of ectoplasm and 105 obsidian shards. Please fill me in on where this one is. Either that, or you are horribly mistaken, lying, or both.

105 obsidian shards at 3.5k each = 367,500 gold
105 globs of ectoplasm at (the all time low price) 7k each = 735,000 gold
5 pieces of armor (because I'm a warrior) at 15k each = 75,000 gold
Assuming the rest of the crafting materials are negligible in price, that brings the "basic" price for FoW armor to 1,177,500 gold.

Note, the prices I quoted for ecto and shards are "open market" price; the price at the traders is much higher.

Misinformation < Math.

I suspect you're using words that you don't know the meaning of. For an economy to be capitalist it needs to have capital. There is no capital in Guild Wars so you're correct that the Guild Wars economy is not capitalist. However if you were to introduce capital into the game, it would mean that in order to generate wealth, you'd need to use some kind of item to make money, and the more of this item you had, the more money you'd be able to make. Rather than just going out and killing monsters to make money, which everyone can do by default. Furthermore the amount of this item would be limited and thus very expensive. Therefore only the very rich would have the means to make money, which would entirely destroy the economy of the game, because unlike in real life where the motivation to get a job and therefore be exploited by a capitalist is that you need money to pay for housing, food etc. in a video game you're playing for fun, and being exploited isn't fun, and no one would play the game because making money would be extremely time consuming and the worse kind of grind imaginable.

Are you dense? He's saying you *dont have to buy the materials*. You can *find* them in the Underworld and Fissure of Woe. I've never bought materials for any of my armor, I find and save them up.

They are not quest rewards and I never said they were. how did you deduce that? If you run though all the quests you get more drops than just farming thats the point. Its much easier for the average player to invest some time in solving these quests and making a couple of clearance runs per week than trying some farming gimmick to get millions of plat. What is it that you can't understand about that?
Only a fool would spend 3.5k for a shard or 7k for a glob when for 1k fee to UW/FoW you get 100k XP 1-9 shards/globs 3-10k in assorted loot and a chance for an uber drop. If that is too complicated for your brain to digest, too bad. As for lying I got over 7 million XP on my ranger and that speaks for itself.

I'm trying to help people by giving them advice that works and is achievable for the average Joe to get their armor quickly and realistcally. How do you think the materals get in the vender? That stuff drops all day long everyday I'm just telling people go get it. It only costs you a little time. People like you are what the OP is talking about, you looking for a shortcut to strike it rich and buy it all once at some inflated price. cause you can't be bothered to do a few quest. Good luck with that cause it dont work.

I'm using FoW armor as an illustration for my argument. You could replace it with any rare, high cost item and my argument would still work, FoW armor just happens to be the most commonly sought after. But whatever rare item you're looking for, ArenaNet put it in the game to be found/bought, and the only way they made to do that is farming. And because they made that the only way, they must have meant for people to farm in order to get such items.

Seriously, how many times do I have to say this before people see that the logic behind it is solid? Every counter argument I've seen hasn't even tried to directly refute it, but rather, tries to attack the illustration.

Um . . . no. I'm sorry, but you're flat out wrong about the cost.

You're right in saying FoW armor costs 60k plus materials, but guess what -- those materials make up the other 940k. (And before someone goes off about how FoW armor isn't exactly 1 million gold, I realize this; it's an approximation used for the ease of the illustration.) Whether you find or buy them doesn't change their worth because, instead of using all those ectos/shards you find to craft FoW armor, you can sell them and get that 940k instead of the armor. So, whether you find or buy the materials you use to craft FoW armor, you've still spent a million gold on it.

I agree, this is a problem. I also dislike people getting run places on their first character, then ruining parties in high level areas because they have no clue how to actually play the game. In fact, this is a very personal problem for me, as I have still not found a single group to clear either the UW or FoW with. (Which is something I would really like to do.) Either the PUG dies after a couple quests or people leave/get disconnected, and it's led me to just not bother very often unless I'm grouping with people I know.

So I'd love to be able to clear the UW and FoW in real parties, finding all the materials I need, but that just doesn't seem possible anymore unless you know a lot of other good players who are willing to group with you. Not when you sit down to play for a good three-plus hours and find two of those being wasted by incompetent PUGs who can't get past the first quest. After being frustrated by that many times, I've turned to a different way of amassing the gold necessary for FoW armor. I play other high level areas such as SF and Tombs, which seem to be a little more manageable for the standard PUG, and I do some griffon/troll farming as well.

But here's my point, and I'll even put it in bold so you can't miss it: Even if I were clearing the UW/FoW with full eight man parties and "play[ing] the game as designed," looking for those ectos/shards myself, I'd still be farming. I would be playing the same areas over and over, looking for the items/gold necessary for FoW armor or whatever else I want to buy, which is the most commonly used definition of the word "farming" when used in the context of a video game. And since that is the only way to get FoW armor or other super-rare items, ArenaNet had to expect people to do it, yet took no steps to stop it except in the most extreme cases. Thus, farming is an intentional part of the game, and one of the reasons why UW/FoW/SF quests are repeatable.

The only time farming is not a valid part of the game is when it's abused through bots or commercial gold farmers who sell gold on eBay and such. And guess what -- that's the only type of farming ArenaNet has attempted to stop. When a normal player is doing it, they obviously must get some form of fun out of it, or else they wouldn't be spending their free time on it. And if people have fun farming, and the point of the game is to have fun, why is farming wrong? It isn't, plain and simple.

Now, if you play the UW/FoW just for the fun of it and don't care about getting FoW armor or a ton of gold or whatever -- good for you. When I can find a decent group, that's the primary reason I play those areas as well; ecto/shard drops are just a bonus. If I played only to farm, I would have a 55HP monk and do UW farming that way, but that just doesn't seem fun to me. I value entertainment first, FoW armor second. This, however, is a personal opinion and does not hold any weight in an argument over whether farming is right or wrong.

I don't think that's the main reason there are so many bad players out there. At least for new players, I think the main thing is just impatience. They don't want to bother with the starting "noob" areas, so they get run to higher level areas. Then they find out they suck -- whether they admit it to themselves or not -- because they didn't bother learning how to play properly. Whether they then turn to farming or whatever, I don't know, but I doubt many people pick up Guild Wars for the first time and think, "Ooh, another game to mindlessly farm!"

Agreed. But that's entirely the fault of the people playing, not the game's. If people do nothing but farm, that's their choice. They payed the same $50 for the game we did, so I figure, let them. I doubt they'd be doing it if they didn't get some sort of satisfaction out of it, and since ArenaNet hasn't taken any drastic steps to stop them, I can't see that they have much of a problem with it.

Read the first page of resposes (usually the next couple are rehashed of blinding flashes of the obvious)

I am a farmer, I like farming, I'm good at it, and it passes the time. But I am not so stupid, or so arrogent as to pretend that my farming does not have an effect to others, and yes that is what I really think of people who hold the position "It doesn't bother your gameplay, shut up."

Sorry, but every action you take, or do not take has an effect on everyone in the game.

For example, if there weren't so many farmers, runes might not be AS worthless as they are now. If there weren't so many farmers, people might actually have to, god forbid, buy weapons that weren't max damage in Ascalon.

As for Runners, I see them as the most perverse and disturbing form of farmer. They don't farm mobs, they farm people, they farm the community. Say what you want about runners, they have a bad effect on the game. One A.Net probably secretly kicks themselves for. They cause/tempt people who would not normally be lazy to take the easy route, to gain no skill with thier class. That in turn robs the community of potentially good players. Personally, I see running as a disease. I never run anyone for any price. Take you somewhere close by, like Ascalon to Sardelac, sure, free, but you help kill things along the way. Most of the time I won't even do that, I give to general directions, a landmark if there is one, and an idea of what challenge to expect to get there. After that, get going, you have learning to do.

The thin line between helping someone and running them is if they learn anything. And it can usually be defined with this "$"

Anet Designed the game with Running in mind, if i have played the game through with 5 other characters give me ONE damnned good reason why i should have to go through all the missions again, WHICH *I* WOULD NOT ENJOY. there are plenty more like me. And as far as the "it tempts first-timers to rush through the game" argument

1: They have made this choice themself, i have not forced them, nobody else has forced them.

2: The only way a firstimer could afford, say a droks run, is if they ebayed gold when they started (and this makes the argument moot, theyre already skipping large chunks of the game) , a run to droks plus a full set of droks costs 10+ platinum, just playing mission by mission, i had about this when i entered the desert!


Runners Earn theyre money, we have to spend large amounts of time (and often money) learning a run, and large amounts of time practicing so we are good enough to perform for a fee, then even more time gathering clients and performing the run, god forbid we get scammed.

We dont "farm the community" or "farm people" any more that a cleaning ladly farms the real life community, or a doctor, or firemen Heck, even Anet, its Called *providing a service*

A Few Simple Facts:

Farming keeps the prices of Runes, Rare Weapons, and especially materials down, this is a GOOD thing (tm) for player average .joe - if more of all of these are entering the market, then there is less demand, and less price

Running Does not affect anyone who chooses not to be run, if you enjoy playing the entire game and seeing everything half a dozen times, Fine, but dont force that on me, or any of the rest of us. players who get to the fire islands clueless, are very often, just not very smart, and tend to stay clueless. if you want to stop this, then suggest anet ensures ascention tests our basic abiltys as you leave pre-sear (quest, map travel here, do this do that, a 5 min short course)

TBH, i played the game through several times honestly, and on my third go, i knew all the missions like the back of my hand, this is a better advantage than any high level armour/weapon could provide, i snoozed through the whole thing

I think the title of this thread is amazingly apt, the True perversion of Guild wars are selfish people, who cannot understand that other people like different things that they do, and call foul because they dont like it/dont enjoy it

Say what you want about Farmers and Runners, we have a good effect on the game, Otherwise Anet wouldnt tolerate, or Encourage us (yes, encouragement) we sure as hell arnt going anywhere

the "perversion" of guildwars started as soon as the forums became available.

after all, how many clueless newbies will know what a 55 monk build without checking here? how many will know that they can be run anywhere without checking here? how many will know the entire storyline in 5 minutes, if they didn't check here? granted, the forums are a great help, and i was spared of being ripped off of selling my black dyes for 100 gold a month ago. but if preserving the so-called "innocence" of guildwars is the first priority, start by shutting down every forum about it out there, and while we're at it, shut down sites that provide in-depth info, such as this site and guildwiki.org. yes, eventually those clueless newbies WILL find out about the 55 monk build, WILL find out that he can get run anywhere, and WILL know the entire storyline. but that will hopefully be after he played through a significant chunk of the game.

anyways, sorry for sounding like a prick, but the answer is just too obvious.

LMAO. Is there anyone else who could be blamed for the perversion of GW?

Oh I know, the guy at PC World who allowed me to buy GW in the first place. If he didn't let me buy a copy of the game, I wouldn't have had fun playing the game, exploring places, trying different professions, and trying out a farming build or two.

[ADDED]
Yes, I farm and I enjoy it. But that doesn't stop me from enjoying the fun of doing quests and missions, and going out to explore the unknown. I find them all enjoyable aspects of GW and they are enjoyable in different ways.

Ha. I forgot about that. That right there shuts down pretty much every "Anet doesn't want you to farm, it's not part of the game" argument.

Why, then, did they make the quests repeatable?

I have no issue with farming, but I've never understood running.

What I don't get is, why are people making new PVE characters and not playing the game with them? When I see a level 9 at Thunderhead keep, who has obviously skipped most of the game, I wonder what is this person trying to get out of their Guild Wars experience?

I don't mean this as an insult - I'm all for live and let live - it is a legitimate question.