The Perversion of Guild Wars

More often than not, it isn't their first character. Certain parts of PVE can be very boring in repetition.

Its possible to do both. I get a runner from Beacons to Droknars, get the armor and go back to Beacons and follow the story line. I dont go outside Droks and get Elites or even buy skills or cap sigs.

My consideration is that it pretty much evens out financially (cost of the runner vs the cost of buying armor at LA, Denravi & Amnoon) and it saves me from dying a little less often.

There's no point in going north of Droknars at lv13-14-15 or even lower, you'll simply die and be a liability to your party and I wouldnt take anyone like that along. I've even seen lv2's at Thunderhead Keep...totally useless.

To clarify, I am not against farming. Im only against farming at a ridiculous level, sure they can do it if they like, I just think its dumb. I've farmed too, but not to such extents. I couldnt bear it.

Its still a great game though.

I am sick of the other people who play this game, you wonder how they even got to the 3rd grade without dieing from not knowing how to get coco-puffs out of their noses.

Most of them have no intellegence, no respect, no endurance, and once again NO RESPECT!

If you are going to play a game with other people you have to learn to respect everyone. I understand how hard it is to respect people in this game, after all some of us feel like we are babysitting people twice our age!

I try to be as nice and respectful as possible when joining a group, but then the warrior gets mad at the monk and they have this huge fight about who has bigger manly features than the other and the monk quits! My whole group dies because of their pethetic bickering.

Meanwhile these people are speaking a foreign sexual langauge with all their "OMG LOLZ I SUK U!" stuff and get in a huge political arguement somehow.

None of them come up with their own ideas except for a few, but the others just work off of those peoples builds and farming techniques. Then they start getting all "OMGZ0rZ I farm griffs better den u! kekekeke!". Because everybody thinks they know what they are doing, they are off bragging about the FoW armor they got off killing the same thing over and over and over and OVER AND OVER AND OVER again!

This game was supposed to be LITTLE TO NO GRINDING! Its not Arena.Nets fault, its the players' faults. THEY REFUSE TO NOT GRIND! So they bring the market prices to an all time high! And they think you are "bad" at this game if you dont want to kill the same things 568,944,457,457 times!

Atleast the dumb people don't have to look smart off of other peoples ideas when the game is new! When its new just about everyone is equaly ignorant. Its all in the attitude! 67% of the players durring PvP weekend were bashing Assassins, those of us who were corageous enough to spend our faction on Assassins found out how powerful they really are! We had the chance to chuckle at the others who were still waiting for their work to be done for them.

FOR ONCE, the people that were induvidual and exploring the game for themselves were the successful ones!

SO YES! I'd have to agree I love fresh new starts, atleast the rotten people are recognized as rotten instead of the cool guy with the new armor OH BOY!


I do not dissagree with helping others, but who wants their ideas to be forwarded by a group of perverts who sit around argueing about politics and sex!

Did they? Please provide a quote where a member of the dev team stated this. Do not use the droknar running "path" as your justification - as that isn't an indication of anything - it's simply a path people have exploited for personal gain. Unless a dev team member explicitly stated "yeah, we put that path there so people could bypass about 1/2rd of the game and make money off of it to boot" then I'd say, ok, that was what they intended.

Sorry, personal pet peeve of mine where people make comments like that. You're simply stating your opinion, not fact.

Gaile has specifically said that "running is legitimate service and as long as both parties play fairly we have no objection to it"

If you need to see it for yourself go herehttp://img513.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gail18ue.png

go down the page about 3/4 of the way

running is a part of the game for those that want it
55 monks are a part of the game for those that want to play them

the iway faction farmers will have to learn a new build before long, next thread will be about them whining their build got nerfed, life's a b%&#$ and it keeps having puppies, get over it.

if someone learns how to use a skill and it performs better than they thought it would big deal, why do you care? half the collector items are just as good as the greens and if you can't afford one you can get the other pretty easily

most of the nerfing for farming has come from the ebayers so don't come whining to me about your crappy game experience, I have been playing this game well over a year now and I can always find something to do.

This tread is useless as tones of same subject around.

innonence?? Where do you live IRL ?_?

No 55M? the first inviciM with ProtBond 17 was nerfed fast .Then map were nerf, other nerf will come again and again to balance the game but Anet isn't "the perfect men team", there'll be always people trying to "counter" them and find weird build for they own purpose.

Price depend on player so for me FoW is only 60k+ some materials.

The perversion of GW.... from where did it come if there is any? Game or players???

Blah Blah Blah, argue on net is like ....

Any comment/nerf /add you want? feel free to mail Anet they'll hear you.

I'm dumb because i'm posting in that useless thread.

If you think its useless, dont post in it.

PLEASE reread his original statement, and my question. In case you're too lazy to:

He said: Anet Designed the game with Running in mind...

I asked him to prove it. I didn't ask him to JUSTIFY running. I didn't ask him (or anyone else) to provide a link where ANet said they didn't care about running. I was asking him to provide a link proving the dev team, with malice aforethought, in it's design of the game, decided that the players can and should RUN from town to town, bypassing major plot points, quests and missions, and/or to charge money for it.

kthanksbye

ArenaNet on Farming

ArenaNet on Running (Second question.)

I think these two Fansite Friday interviews give a pretty clear picture of what they think about each.

So that's where those interviews went off to, thanks Desbreko.

it's not that he has to prove anything to you nor does anyone else. a direct quote from anet is "We do not intend to make short cuts impossible—they are a legitimate part of Guild Wars"

that to me pretty much says that they don't care

if the area were not designed to be walked/run through at some point, there would not be any areas of the maps that led to the next outpost/mission town.

/thankyouforsharing

Guild Wars makes it possible for the less intense player to be as powerful as the guy who spent 50x as much time playing. However, that guy still has a way to distinguish himself (15k or FoW armor, etc.) I think this is the best of both worlds. After all, there are people (and we all know them) who enjoy playing any game all the way until the log says 100% complete. You know, the people who have gotten gold on every license test in Gran Turismo. The people who dodged 100 lightning strikes in a row in Final Fantasy X.

Does "farming" really ruin the economy? I say it makes it realistic. If you make a game where everyone can get every single item with ease, it eliminates a lot of the enjoyment for a lot of people. Can you imagine not caring when you got a good drop, because they were so common? Better yet, can you imagine there not being any "good" drops, because nothing in the game was outstanding? Honestly, the next step would be to eliminate experience levels altogether, and have the merchants give you everything you want for free. Is that really what people want? Because that's ultimately what they're arguing for.

If you make a statement, I ask for proof. Since you (or anyone else) can't come up with such proof, the statement is neither valid nor correct. I don't care if you dismiss my request, it simply means you can't back up the claim. If he said "ANet doesn't mind" then fine, they don't mind. But don't put words in their mouth.

Sorry, I just have a REAL problem with people making assertions that they pull out of their ass, and the main one is the infamous phrase "the dev team/anet INTENDED for this or that to happen. People bandy that about willy nilly with absolutely ZERO proof to back it up. This is yet ANOTHER example of it. In fact, I'd like to hear from Gaile about this - she reads these forums religously - and have her state publicly "Yes, ANet purposely designed the game from the start so that players could bypass huge sections of the world map by running - or paying someone to run, thereby skipping major plotpoints, missions, quests, etc". It would be even neater if she could jump up on a soap box and say "Furthermore, yes, we had every intention when developing the game to see level one characters at THK".

Until that happens...

youlosethanksforplaying

I think the fact there are so many pointless areas connecting the world is evidence enough, for example, Moving from TOA to the jungle ( a run my level 11 warrior managed fine, and i enjoyed very much for the challange of it) there are two parts of the world, where there are, No missions, Nothing scenic (no landmarks, nothing anydifferent from path here, tree here)

So we can deduce that there area was designed:

Not For exploration (if this was the case, there would be content, scenic views)

Not For a Mission

Not For farming (theres nothing there that drops anything good)

Not For Fighting though (these monsters were more tame than the shiverpeaks monsters)

The only purpose i can see for this strip of map, is to allow runners a means to the next part of the world, and this isnt unique, there are connections all over the GW world

It's likely that anet has at one point mentioned the map being designed for running, the difference is, i'm really not bothered enough to search it down, just to prove you wrong, especially considering out of my entire post & argument, you could only find one nag, and its pretty pathetic at that. if your so sure, find me a quote saying they DIDNT intend it, as they were obviously very aware of it before the game was released, and if they didnt intend it before the games release, and didnt remove it, then that is intending it (remember, this is PRE mass release, not post)


and if the shiverpeaks connection isnt there for running, then find me a reason.

actually i think a valid point could be raised that they placed non mission explorable areas which allow you to bypass virtually every plot point on the map.

Sanctum Cay mission to desert and one other are about the only forced on you missions.

they designed it to be bypassed if that was what you wanted to do.

Theres still a great feeling of beuty about this game. Hanging with your guildmates just after you barely won a GvG is a great feeling that couldn't be replaced by even the greatest items. In my honest opinion this game may lose some of the RPG style of the game but the PvP is a great thing which could never be wrecked,

Others can, because they don't farm in a way that feels like a grind, or they enjoy it. Who are you to declare others' fun dumb? If I was to say I farmed 30 ecto in a week (which is not alot by far) with a solo mesmer build, my favorite class, would that be dumb? If I was doing it to tweak a build so I could write a guide and benefit others?

Farming =! Grind, nor does Grind = Farming. You're anti-grind, whatever, but define your ire properly.

M30wc0w's point is a good one, for PvE guilds they also have fow trips to celebrate after.

Lornar's pass used to be used for accessing UW as an international team, and Dreadnaught's is where the mountain heart lies. It just happens they are connected to rankor. Does it really, in the end, matter? The majority of people paying for runs had to get that money with a different character. Although its those that scrape and beg for run cash that end up tainting Tyria with the 'omg we need mor monk 4 thead keep now mend the king plz'

Did you just skip over the two links that were specifically posted JUST FOR YOU in regards to this?

If however you only want Gaile's view on the matter, then by all means I will make sure she gets this thread sent to her inbox.

Wow you are so lame I don't even know where to begin, and please shove that "Kthx" bullcrap up your ass.

Gogetaliveyouloserwhoneverkissedagirl

Take your trolling, poorly typed double posts elsewhere, this topic has descended far enough.

jesus dude, every page I see like 5 posts by you that are a half sentence, STOP STPAMMING!!!

Temptation Arguement:

1.) By providing the opportunity, you influence their decision.
2.) Drok's Runs cost about 2-3k now, I had more then that coming out of Pre-Searing. Once they HAVE Droks they can go back whenever for the armor.

Your Counter Arguement:

1.) Don't give me that "providing a service" garbage arguement, it's old, and it's wrong. You're not doing anyone in the game a service by allowing themselves to cheat themselves of a learning experience. Especially the people who have to put up with "how do I attack?" noobs in THK.

2.) Hence, runners do farm people and the community.

3.) If it's any consolation, I do believe in the sanctity of a deal. They need more fraud protection for you guys, even if you are screwing things up. I know, a weird position to have.

Farming:

I said I was a farmer: Farming has good effects as you stated. The purpose of bringing up runes/materials, was to prove the "farmers don't effect you" arguement wrong. We might be agreeing violently on that one.

A.Nets "Encouragement" of Running: They don't encourage runnng as it stands, A.Net added Snake Dance in the niave attempt to allow those people like you who completed the game to maybe jump ahead and try something new. Don't give me the crap arguement that they wanted every lazy-ass newbie to hand someone a little cash and skip the game. They didn't, and though they don't ever say it, they are more they likely sorry they didnt add some sort of stopping mechanic for that sort of thing.

I'm not intolerant of all different ways of play, just the ones that that do more bad then good. Running is a BAD thing as it stands. If the Devs make it so you can't get run to Droks till you beat the game with at least 1 character, THAT would be acceptable. That would force newbies to learn, and you wouldn't lose your way of making money.

You can play the game as you like, I can't stop you. And no one can stop me from being an avid farmer. But at least I don't pretend and ignore the bad things that can come of farming.

No, I did however marvel at your lack of reading comprehension skills.

I can say I think its dumb because that is what I believe. Personally, I was raised in the United States of America, in which I was brought up to believe that I should speak for what I believe, and speak out against what I do not agree with. That is who I am to "declare others' fun dumb". Sure Im no more right than any one else in my assessment of their actions, but its my opinion. It doesnt have to be anyone elses. I am not saying that anyone is wrong, just that I dont like these things. Is there something wrong with that?

And could people please be a little more respectful? You prove no points by being a jack ass.

I myself am marvelled at your innate ability to be a complete crab, Glenn. However, I will humbly admit I had you confused with another member. Although I don't see how seeing as your username is unique, considering it's origin..

Ah well, much apologies. You know how us young folk like to rush into things

I'd prefer to avoid this thread, it has gone way off course from the original post and turned into an opinion-spamming brawl. However, it seems you're challenging me directly?

Well, while being born in America, I've been raised in a country with one of the world's most restricted press. If anything, that shows me the whole 'free speech' thing is misunderstood by everyone to mean 'I can make random points without justification, because it's my opinion!'. It also, most certainly, does not make you correct. In any case, it also gives me the free reign to state your post was nothing more than a dying flame aimed at nearly the entire PvE community.

The original purpose of this thread was to detail the 'falling' of Guild Wars from a new-player-like innocence to a farming/running existance. Quintissentially, this statement is flawed under the assumptions that;

a) Other people share this view of farming
b) This shift is even considered a 'perversion'
c) This is a progressing problem, and not simply a state that is understood as people play through the game more
d) That this is a problem with 'Guild Wars' in particular.

While some may say that assumption C is correct, in that as time has gone on the playerbase has degenerated, this is also because of the ratio of new players to older players is shifting. This ties into the basic fact that people who have played longer will not have the new-player innocence. This is lost in ALL online games, as one begins to take the game more seriously. Thus, while the change exists, it is not a problem with Guild Wars, but the people who play all online games. This is not even a case of A-net's stance on the issue, because the real thing we're looking at is the players and their own attitudes and ideologies. Moreso, it is not really a problem either. Why is this?

The 'farming' problem which is 'dumb' is again, an opinionated assumption. Many, many people have been brought together and enjoy the closer teamwork of 'farming' in small groups in places such as SF, FoW, UW, Tombs. I've met practically everyone I know in GW through means such as these, and indirectly from such runs, others have joined the guild I'm in and hence met me.

People declare 'running' to be a problem. What is the side effect of running? From the posts, it appears to be a complain of;

a) Inexperienced people reaching high-end areas of the game.
b) People not playing through the game fully.
c) 'Abusing' the game structure.

Firstly, A is not the problem of running. Run or not, this is a problem with the players themselves, and oh so many mending paladins and conjure mesmers are everywhere, regardless of having played through the game or not. Perhaps running helps more of these cases happen, but the underlying issue is that people are learning the wrong tactics and not changing to better ones. B is nonsense. Most people who are run are on a new character, and have already experienced all of PvE, which does get quite dreary towards Maguuma. In any case, if you're so fanatic that everyone should experience all, then thats just your gain and the runnee's loss. Don't even start about 'Anet intended this' and 'Anet didn't want people to do that.' If it's there, its there, and people will use it. If Lornar's did not exist, chances are by now we'd see people paying for Dragon Lair runs to reach droknar. It's not exactly hard to get run to the desert, and through the desert missions anyway.

What other 'problems' are there? The degeneration of the player base into a money-obsessed entity? Alright, I'll grant this can be a problem to a certain kind of player. Especially when they have to group, whether in a guild or for a PuG mission. This is not the fault of Guild Wars, that is what happens in online games. The best thing you can do is stop posting (because this thread isn't going anywhere, and you know it...) and try to find a group of people that enjoy doing missions... I know I have several in my guild, and it's always peaceful and fun to go and do missions with them and other guild members taking a break from other, more 'grinding' activities.

What's my point? I don't have one, except that apparently I'm disrespectful and shouldn't be. Well meep meep, there's why. Nonsense opinions being thrown at me.

You arent being disrespectful at all, in fact I quite appreciate the fact that you keep your argument more ordered and thought out than others.

I do not know if you have anything more to argue in this thread, as I know that there is nothing left in it for me. We may even be arguing similiar points, but in this chaotic environment, it can be hard to pick out what people are truely saying.

Everything I say is my opinion, correct? Then it is my right to have this opinion, even if I may have nothing to support it. I do have support for the things I say in this thread, as I have taken part in all these things, except the 55 monk/classes, and believe that as a sentient and rational human being I can make a judgement of others actions. Really all Im saying here is that I have a right to believe that I believe. (and im only really against 55 monks and such, which I guess you can boil down to disliking the idea that they are built on, they are a marvel of human ingenuity of course, but they are too good at doing what they do,much like the atom bomb.)

Exactly the reason why I try to avoid this thread, everyone is declaring their views to be divine providence, even though most of them are the same. I tried to make my examination somewhat more evidenced and less 'I think this, so im right!'

The problem of the thread isn't people having opinions, it's people posting unsuppported opinions. It becomes a textual melee, like this thread. (If anyone tries to retaliate to that with 'well thats your opinion omfg rofl' I'll rip your heart out, my evidence is th last several pages of flame).

I'm incapable of complaining against 55hp monks, because when you look at their capabilities, you'll notice they only shine in a few select areas. Warriors can solo more places, the only benefit of the 55hp monk is to tank all of UW at a faster pace... and that takes a good deal of skill in any case.

Yeah, the founding of my opinoin is in my experience playing the game, which I suppose you will have to have faith that I have had an adequate amount. About the 55 monks, it doesnt matter so much that they can only solo a few places, so much that they can solo these high level, higher yield places much more quickly than other builds. I feel that this is unfair. We could go into and argument about whether or not its fair, but I wouldnt pursue it.

Back in march, I started GW with a W/N. Everything was surrounded with mystery (How come they have a cape and I don't, who is this Gwen girl, ...)Hanged out til lvl 7 in pre-ascalon and then went in the arena... At the time didn't know that it was a one way ticket... I discovered Ascalon city in ruins to my great despair and wanted to go back in Eden as I knew I didn't complete it. So I ventured into the wilderness, the landscape and monsters were hostile... And every new discovery was a wonder... couldn't get my eyes out of the game. Went into a guild ! What a delight, there some guy told me about the temple of the age... OMG, what is that, don't have it on my map. What ? Access to new areas over there ? First time in the UW. A massacre. First time in the FoW... A slaughter house... Soon started a new monk character as they were the exception back then... Completed Eden with him. Then I started a ranger...

Then I went into the HoH. System was quite different, I remember the time when 8 guilds fought at the same time in the UW. Got my first fame but without knowing what it was.

Seriously started HoH back in september. Got rank3... started my own guild...

Now, having finished almost everything, my pleasure is to see my guil mates progress and us having a great group !!! Even if we get bored, we still cling to the game !!!

Ah; I am also a farmer. Why ? Simple. In more than 1400 hrs of play, I have never droped a nice item. NEVER... All the nice stuf I have I bought thanks to farming... sad but true. So I get on with it, and at last I now drop black vials, perfect mods, godly weapons, things that were unthinkable when I did regular PVE... Bad luck ? yeah, maybe, I am aware of that...

Now I devote my time preapring my guild to face the new challenges of factions. emissaries have formed alliances with othe guilds, we know wich faction we will support, our chest is full of gold and our team spirit is high ! So all hail GW !!!

A 55hp monk cannot really solo any areas that fast. SoJ isn't exactly blitzkrieg damage (a DA 27hp nec would actually be much faster), and warriors can solo far more areas than they can.

In fact, you can 55hp any caster and solo smiteruns.

I fail to see how the original statement is _flawed_, even given assumptions a-c (I don't think anyone has even implied assumption d).

The playerbase HAS become more experienced. There IS infinitely more farming/running than there used to be (and nobody please even pretend that only repeat players run, OK? The newbs get run to the farming grounds; if they haven't got money they get run for free or dirt cheap, and it IS easier to find a free/cheap runner than it is to find a PUG in many or even most areas). The diversity of accepted/recommended builds has decreased, especially in PvP but also in the farming areas of PvE.

Yes. Again, I believe this was the OP's point. He sees this as undesirable and a loss of player innocense; you see it as desirable and a result of increased average player experience. Two sides, same coin.

However.... While Anet can't realistically do anything about players becoming jaded, the loss of diversity can and is countered by rebalancing skills; rebalancing monster skills/challenges; and adding new areas/skills. Of course, this is decried as "nerfs" by those who're using the present optimal build, but upsetting the balance works to maintain diversity.

The 55 monk is a case in point. It was for a while horribly overpowered, but after the nerf it is no more (or less) powerful than many other builds. It still is, IMHO, counterintuitive and although I have one myself I wouldn't mind seeing the whole underlying mechanic changed/removed, but it's not really overpowered any more.

The first assumptions deal with the natural shift in gameplay being defined a problem. If these are false, there is no problem, and the entire thread becomes irrelevant.

D is implied in the nature of the thread... that anet should do this, guild wars is becoming that... etc. It has nothing to do with the game itself per se, more the players, or perhaps it does? Hence is the nature of D.

Im sorry but the offering a temptation argument holds no water. We offer a legitimate service aimed to assist players on theyre 2-6+th character, if a newbie chooses to abuse this, that is THEYRE fault. Is it Ebays fault people buy gold?

It IS a service, its a text book definition service, if you think it is aimed at first timers , you are wrong, and if you've been following this thread pretty dammned stupid, its been said plenty of times this is NOT the case

I Will Refuse to run Anyone who has not finished the game with anouther character, yes, somebody could lie and say they have- but that is theyre choice .

Most of the time i dont even charge for a run, and when i do, its because i need to buy more skills (my main money sink) to keep my characters PVP ready. I also never charge more than 50% the going rate (500g for an elona mission+bonus, 1-1.5K for Droks) i Do it for the challange, not the money

Dont paint all runners with the same brush


@ Avarre , a Very Well thought out and insightful post, i was not aware of the lonars UW entrance, i stand corrected


I think this thread has outlived itself....

It IS a service, and yes newbs ARE run. People run for free, people run for dirt cheap, and guildies run new members to make them useful in farming & pvp.
What's truly stupid is to pretend that only repeat players get run, as you can easily determine yourself that is not the case.

Whether running is a problem or not depends on ones outlook. I feel people may run as much as they want, but they should at least be aware that they're actually cheating themselves out of content they've paid for.

For me personally the biggest annoyance is when people who've been run/twinked/powerleveled complain about lack of content.

When start a run to droknars i will ask 3 questions to the team (answer via wisper)

1: Who is the lich really?
2: Who Betrays You In The Jungle?
3: When is the Last Time You See Prince Rurik

if they can answer these i run, yes, they could ask guildies, so there is still some get through, but then the are definatly aware they are missing out. i cannot speak for all runners, but of the majority ive met (and partnered with) , most take the same stance as me.

If these people are trying to get a run and skip bits theyve never played before, then most likely they will be impatient, and rush the missions as fast as they can, and in the end, be still the same idiot at THK, except this time, you cant even tell them apart by level- so were not the cause of the problem, people who want to finish the game and get onto the next one are

Yeah, this is true. I was playing with on guy who asked for a run to Iron Mines. I had the time so i did it. But they guy started asking me all the noob questions like "There are 2 att quests?" He had bee run and power leveled for whole time and when we did the Iron Mine mission he was completely useless in battle. He didn't understand how to use the skills or how to make a build. It was sad.

Now I realize by running him even once that I did nothing but hinder his growth as a player.

For me whenever I make a new char I pay runners and such, but I've been through the game several times. That's a difference.

I think a lot of players need to do what their characters have to do when they're out on missions/quests: adapt to what may appear to be a changing environment!!!

Believe me, the innocence of the game is still there. It's there if you take the time to help newbies out on their 1st runs through the game (and believe me, there are plenty). It's there when you take the time to answer some of the questions that are constantly posed when you're in towns (i.e., "how do I go to FOW; what is "favor", etc.) You can get into some fun talks with a lot of people by simply answering what, to the experienced player, are basic questions (not to mention building a pretty good "friends" list along the way.

I have developed my own set of rules for the game: I don't "run" people from point A to point B; I don't slam people for being "newbies" (because EVERYONE was a newie at 1 point), and I don't go with groups that have problems taking new people to areas. Some of my most fun times (be it doing Hell's precipice for the 20th time, or going into FOW for quests/farming for the 20th time), have been with people trying it for the first time!! And if you're concerned about the innocence of the game being lost, believe me, when you help some do "Last Day Dawns", or "Titan Source" for their 1st time, that innocence is there when you read about how they feel when the group completes it!

As for the rest: remember, this is a game. Much like television, if something bothers you, ignore it.

I will say this, and to me, it's really funny: I went out with a farming group, that advertised itself as "very experienced; NO NEWBIES ALLOWED" (I only did it the 1 time). They went into FOW. Within 2 minutes, the entire party was dead (lol). They spent the next 5 minutes pointing fingers, and screaming obscenities at each other (it was hilarious to me). The next time, I went with a group that had 3 "newbies" (I really hate that term), and we did almost every quest in fow.
Guess which group I had fun with?