What is Anet's objective for PVE ?

In the busness world you mean what you say or it may turn legal and you will have alot of unhappy people.

It was pretty simple, read it again.

Keep reading, it is relevant as you read on.

Huh?

insert PvP vs PvE conversation here. PvP, competitive, faster paced. PvE, more leisure, go at your own pace. If I walk away from the keyboard for a few seconds in PvP are the players going to sit and wait for me, or come find me? Huge difference.



Your right, in fact they said there would be no forcing. However, if you read my post, you'll find that it's the opposite. This is where PK and PvP and the difference between the two come into play. Pitting a player vs the enviroment for points (which are matched up against other players for points - if that's the case) is a cloaked PvP situation. It means, the PvE'ers must play as if they are playing a PvP style game, fast paced and hectic; score based. I go at that pace all day, when I log into play a game, I want the opposite.
The "spin" on PvP not being forced was them saying you wouldn't have to kill other players or partake in HoH type game types. What they didn't tell us, is that some missions are players vs players (note, once more I didn't say players could kill each other, or PK) in a type of point system. This means, custom builds, unique builds and the like will be frowned upon. This means the missions must be rushed in order to get the "points" needed. This is stressed even more once you enter into an alliance with another guild.
Rather than asking where this was read, point me towards a reading or article that says other wise. I was dieing to play an assassin, but I'll pass if I'm pushed into a dull and boring PvP (yes, I find it dull cause I want to plau a more leisure game) situation. Cause, for where I read it, Gamespy and Gamespot both make mention of the type of quests and missions. Their writtings all point to affirm the more hidden points of Factions. Hidden, and never really spoken about, probably for the simple fact, they knew many people would not like the drastic change.

I got it, and I read all of it. Your second sentence confirms what most PvE'ers didn't like (and don't like) about it.
But you've missed my point. Interacting is fine, good stuff even. Pushing me to a game style I don't want is another thing and I'll not bother spending my money on Factions for that reason.
I also don't think it's enhancing the game, I think it's a cheap way out from making in game content. PvP games in general are game engines with little or no content to them - read Quake III and the UT series. Players bring the content in forms of battles and score, the devs provide the arena. I see that here in Factions.
An enhancement to me would be better AI, Henchie commands, Pet commands, tier leveled quests and missions through the faction system (that is unlocked via completion of PvE missions or quests - not PvP based scoring). New weapons, armor, player craftable gear. Those would be enhancements.
Am I playing the wrong game? I don't think so. I'm having a great time with GW, those are just what I would call enhancements though. To me, Factions is like going from Quake II to Quake III. A huge downgrade and let down.

You diffenetly didn't read my post very closely. I never said I was leaving, I said I wasn't buying Factions. That's the beauty of this game, I don't need Factions to keep playing the game. Maybe Chapter 3 will push more PvE, better AI, more of what PvE'ers have been asking for. If not, then I wont buy that one either.

Ok, I'm not sure if you're trolling or not, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

The facts of these are as follows:
1. Your fire elementalist may have been hot sh*t (no pun intended) in beta, but elementalists have apparently not been good damage dealers or popular characters in quite some time (see Ensign's "Why Nuking Sucks" article).
2. Because of this, people have moved on to other classes, and want to party with people who have also moved on to more effective combinations. Nobody wants to "carry" an ineffective team member.

I'm sorry that your favorite character isn't as effective as he once was, I really am. But you need to change with the times, and adapt, improvise, and overcome. If that involves playing a different character, then c'est la vie.

That is, of course, as always, your choice.

valid points, but they're not as effective as other character types are for what most people are there for (farming, usually). see my point #2 above.

again, see points #1 and #2 above.

The Ogre-Slaying Knife item is a joke. See this page for more information:
http://www.guildwiki.org/wiki/Ogre-Slaying_Knife

It's an item intended as a joke based on a skit by the Dead Alewives, which makes fun of D&D players. You can see the 8-bit theatre version of the skit here:
http://www.flashplayer.com/animation/8bitdnd.html

See also Xenrath's reply (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...postcount=114), because he's probably right.

Honestly, if all they lose is the ultra-hard-core RPG player crowd, then those losses will probably be a very minor part of their userbase, especially compared to other segments of the userbase.

That's just my opinion.

eudas

p.s.
Ironically, I feel closer to the hardcore RPG'er crowd than I do to the hardcore PVP'er crowd, but for some reason, you're not generating much sympathy in me.

I think that you probably feel like you've been lied to, and maybe you even have been, but I honestly feel that if that's the case, then you had to have also been wilfully looking away from the plain evidence in front of your face about where the game was heading. Especially if you've been around since beta! I mean, good God, man! You're *just now* figuring out that GW isn't a hardcore RPG? Wake up and smell the coffee.

eudas

Why should adpt to other classies, My point is I cannot use my favrite class. Why should I have someone telling me how to play the game? I payed for this game I should be able to play they way I want as details listed on the box of the game when I had bought it.

Like who are you to tell me how to Play the that I bought?

Why are you forcing me to play the game the way you want?

The game for me is no longer fun, because you have force me in to doing some thing I don't want to do.

I have been around since beta, I have CE. How long have you been playing? I don't know you. Why are You forcing me? I don know that game I had played changed. I had payed $80 for the CE here in canada because i had liked it so much. Now when I play I find hard to have fun.

I payed for this game because I wanted a little fun, Now I feel like i wasted my money.


Everyones fun is different, why should I be force to play your fun and not mine. Look at the monk class for example. I have a monk that I use to fight with not as healer. Since the nerf I can really only use him as healer. Why did my monk have to be nerfed? Why because everyone else thinks that a monk should be a healer. So what my monk gets nerfed and i am force to play a different way.

There are some people who love play with their pets. what are you going to nerf their pets. there are some people who love their class for a reason.


How would you like it if you are force from playing GW? I can see you like it too.

Oh please, spare me the martyr complex.

Every game in existence is ultimately going to have parameters within which you must exist. No game is completely free-form enough to let you enjoy your absolute no-rules play-only-the-way-I-want-to-play playstyle. There are always assumptions and limitations based on design choices. In this case, the design choices are that elementalists are weak, and you're refusing to adapt. That's fine, but then, when you're faced with Darwinian extinction (not being included in groups, and sucking at PVP), you call "no fair!" It has nothing to do with being fair. It has to do with recognizing the current game environment, and attempting to be successful within that environment. Adapt or perish.

Again, quit it with the "i'm so oppressed" martyr complex. I'm not forcing you to do anything. I'm just trying to help you out, by waking you up to what actually exists.

The answer to "how long have you been around" is irrelevant. All other things being equal, the only thing differentiating oldbies from newbies is that newbies aren't emotionally attached to "the way things used to be".

1. Seriously, stop blaming me for things I'm not doing. I'm not forcing you to do anything.
2. Also, seriously, quit it with the "poor little me" prosecution complex. If the game's no longer fun, then *find something else to play*. That's how it works! And it's really OK to find new games. Really!
3. If monk is such a sucky class and is really only suitable to be a healer, I'd like for you to tell that to all of the 55hp farming monks out there, and i guess to all of the protection/bonding monks too. Really, it sounds like you're either oversimplifying to try to generate sympathy (and failing miserably), or you're really just not paying attention. I think the latter is more likely.

I really do like it, yes. It's a good game. But when it comes time to move on to the next game, because I'm tired of it, or because it's no longer fun, then that's what I'll do. There will always be another game, and nothing lasts forever.

Please understand, I really do sympathize with you, and I think that I understand where you're coming from, but you need to spend some time thinking about things. I hope that our debate helps you out in that.

eudas

so your saying anet doesnot care!

I'm saying Anet has a fiscal responsibility to themselves and to their shareholders to make the game as successful as it possibly can be. Sometimes that involves making choices that are unpopular with minority groups of customers in order to appeal to a larger audience of their customer base, and to new customers.

eudas

p.s. i tend to edit my posts alot to refine them after i've posted them; check the previous post for changes i've made.

eudas

who ever said I was minority, there are alot of rpg players playing this game. Are you saying that Anet doesnot care because there is alot of people upset!

there are a lot of RPG players, yes. But, are there are lot of *hard-core* RPG players? are there a lot of people who replay everything from Baldur's Gate to NWN to GW consistently? You have to gauge the spectrum of players, and take that portion in the context of the whole. I would posit that the portion of GW players who are true die-hard RPG players is, even in the context of all of the PVE-only players, a minority of the overall userbase.

and that's what it's about: making money and pleasing most of the people most of the time.

eudas

p.s. I'm leaving work now, and it's Saint Patty's Day here, so I'm going to go celebrate. Good luck to you, sir. I hope what I said was thought-provoking.

eudas

how meny people do you think will be affected by force them to do what they don't want to do.

How meny people out there even like pvp? that fact this thread is even up still says alot. how meny fights are there with rpg players and pvp players

how meny people feel the way I do can you tell me?.

Hmmm, interesting discussion. Where Arenanet stands for in PvP is clear: They support it 100% and the game balance is fully based on it. About PvE Arenanet remains silent. But the general picture has become clear by the way they launch new content: Its a nice add on for those who want to experience with a combination of adventuring and team play. The reason Arenanet remains silent is probably a commercial one: By not taking a clear stand on this issue they hope to sell a few thousends of copies more. Yet I think this discussion proves the gaming society deserves an honost an clear point of view. Time for Arenanet to come out of the shadows...

I agree... I have the pre-order but if I find that the additional PvE content to Factions lacking in the pre-play event I may very well get a refund and move on. I truly like the system, but PvP for me is a side event not the main event. If I wanted Player Vs. Player I would play a FPS game.

... and state what's their objective for PvE

Honestly i'm putting much hope in the Faction content, and it will be a test to see how the game evolves. I would rather have prefered the 'PvPvE' concept to only give special awards like medals, emotes or the like rather than locking out high-level content of the game. We've been around this with the favor, and the system is pretty much screwed however people will say it's not. Anyway we have yet to see how it is implemented...

dreamhunk, you're blackman arent you

WaAGuest (and to the others who are doing the same thing): Actually read the FAQ first (link in page 5 of this thread in Guardians post), then ask your questions. Most of your answers are there, so your attempts to continue arguing the point are starting to fall on deaf ears.

If you don't want to buy the game, don't. Said it before and I'll say it again: game companies don't force people to play games; they force people to stop buying their games and start playing others. i don't see Anet as stupid or blind; there will be plenty of content, PvP and PvE, for everyone (PvP and PvE) to be happy. They did a good job with GWP. Grabbing one sentence, with no factual arguments to back it up, and twisting it to say "well this must mean I won't like GWF (and you shouldn't either!)" does not proove your point.

Tough Love Statement Incoming!

Anet did not make this game for me. They did not make this game for you either. they made this game for everyone, with the entent that everyone would enjoy it. That means there are parts that I don't like, but others will. That means there will be parts you don't like. But no one is forcing you to play them. They haven't forced you yet; why would they force you now?

Take a few minutes of your time and go read and research the FAQ. I'm not getting into a flame war with you and i'm not going to hold your hand and walk you through each statement step by step. I'm too ornery and old for both.

I did read the FAQ and everything else I could find on it. That's where the conserns came from and that's one reason I came here to find confirmation on the conserns that came to mind. I did ask, on several occasions for someone to either prove or point me to where I might find info saying otherwise, or that my conserns were wrong. The ears of the readers are not the ones I'm really hoping to catch with this info anyway, so sympaty among users is not a priority of mine. If the conserns of mines are correct, then I am in hopes that Anet sees the opinion of me and those of like minded people and "fix" what I (we) consider a bad design. If they don't, at least I can say "I tried".
The deaf ears comment will not cause me to stop posting, nor cause me to "hush" as I, and everyone here has a right to say what they consider or think.

Never said anything was fact, disclaimed myself many times saying it was speculation and assumptions. Even asked for confirmation and links to more info. The FAQ was too vague. Pandora's Box, Cymboric and Dazzen all seem to agree, Anet needs to actually state "clearly" what the deal is. I've also never twisted anything, I did, in fact, untwist and break apart Anet "cloaked" PvP comment. I also claimed I canceled my pre-order to take a more wait and see approach. This means, I don't want to get stuck with a falsely advertised product. I don't enjoy PvP in any of it's shapes or forms, so I'm not looking to purchase a game based on that type of play. I'm not "knocking" Anet or GWF for that, if it is that, I'm mearly saying if that's what it is, I don't want it; and I would like Anet to step out and say what it truely is. Again, the FAQ leaves to much to be considered.
Also, I have a feeling, by looking at many other posts in the threads these past few days, I'm not alone is feeling PvE is being screwed over with this Chapter. The word "Screwed" is of course an opinion, and it's our right to have. Perhaps, if Anet would give more details in a less convoluted point of view, I would feel less that way.

The rest of this was just a little silly. If I can't come here and ask for other's opinions or links to possible other info, where would I go? Anet? Seems they are hidding info and cloaking things to improve sales. Yes, I said "Seems", meaning that is the picture they have painted to me.
And please, no more holding hands comments, the image of two old guys holding hands terrifies me, especially when my hand is envolved.

involved, intent. Sorry. I'm just doing my part to correct the failures of the American educational system. Anyway ANet put themselves in the unenviable position of trying to please everyone at once. That's just not possible. The people who enjoy competitive play like PvP usually don't enjoy PvE as much if at all and vice versa. They made a valiant attempt at uniting those two seperate worlds, but as you can see the divide is as a strong as ever. You can't force one to do the other and in the long run I think the only thing they can do is completely seperate the two aspects of the game and make them independent of one another. That's the only way you're going to make everyone happy. Keep both parts but make them totally isolated from each other.

lol, thanks, pre four cups of coffee, I can barely spell anything and my typos are horrid. Any and all help is welcome in that matter. Usually I go back and edit what I catch, but didn't today.
I agree, I don't see a way to merge the two. If Anet pulls it off, wonderful. But as of now, they've mearly cloaked PvP by adding score and points to it and calling it a coop PvE mission/quest; or as someone said, mini-games.
For the record, if it's fun, I'll enjoy a nice slice of crow pie and go about my merry way. But, for it to be fun for me and those of like mind, it needs to maintain the same pace as the rest of the game. Thirsty River excluded, as we've already discussed that one. It also needs to be available (it, being missions and quest) when I log into play, not only open for when PvP has won the day.
I'll admit, the idea sounds grand, but in execution, it's very flawed and leaves some people out to dry as they wait around... much like the HoH situation now.
I'm hoping for Anet to read these posted concerns and alters the "assumed" (if it need be altered to address these concerns) issues mentioned. Or, in the very least, just come out and say exactly, what it is.
The pre-view weekend is looming in, but, will we have enough time to get our characters high enough (or travel too with existing ones) this high level content and see for ourselves? Or will it be just out of reach so we have to purchase (or as I said in my case, will wait and see) to find out - which I believe Anet wants us to do, a good business choice, but poor customer treatment and reminds me of a Cable Company's way of business ("Here take this and you get this", but when you take it, you also get more junk then you know what to do with).

I just have the feeling that this new chapter and it's new features are really only going to appeal to the larger guilds and those involved in PvP. It's simply impossible for a smaller guild to gain an alliance or for those alliances to hold territory. We barely have enough people for GvG let alone the hundreds of people that some guilds boast. Then again we're more selective in our recruiting. However the fact remains that unless you are an active PvPer or a member of a larger guild it doesn't appear that you will be able to experience the full content of the game. Now the PvP I could care less but Alliance missions will affect your ability to do certain other missions, or so I hear. Now this could be just for those in the alliance but if this is global that just sucks. I think the current quotes and cited articles are too ambiguous to make a determination on exactly how the mechanics are going to work and I can understand ANet's reluctance to release particulars before the product debut. I'm going to buy it, if only to have something else to do, and I'll play it and then we will see how all this comes together. I still think this is the dreaded Sophomore Slump that so many game franchises experience.

EDIT: For more information on the Sophomore Slump please go and rent Devil May Cry 2 and Xenosaga Episode 2. These two titles both show what happens when a great initial concept is executed poorly in the follow up.

off topic but yes!

I thought that was one of the points of the game, to form alliances. They are allowing 10 guilds to form a single alliance. Yes Bigger guilds will probabaly be dominant for a bit. But it still doesn't rule out the possibility of 10 smaller guilds to become a big influence in the game to challenge bigger guilds.

I still don't get the idea of PvE players being forced to PvP. I don't see that anywhere. Can someone post a valid link on the issue?

Hey Omega, there really isn't a link towards for or against PvE being forced into PvP. This is where the problem and conversation keeps bouncing around. ANet won't deny or confirm.
The info is all assumed, but without info saying otherwise, here's where we are all at.
All printed articles and web posted information points at a competitive game for Factions. Videos on the web only show a PvP looking show. Though, at the same time, I don't see those videos showing players attacking players. The videos do show a red and blue "score" though.
What this shows us is that, this is either PvP arena, or it's a PvP game vs mobs. If each team is fighting to out score the other, then it's not a PvE, it's a PvP game.
On the same thinking, how does one make a competitive PvE game that can aid in the moving of boundries to take over cities? I, and many others have come up with no possible ideas for it to work. So, it stands to say that the only way to take away territory from the opposite faction is to play against them. Again, either in directly killing the other team off, out scroing them, out lasting them or whatever the case it.
This means that the end game missions and quests meant for PvE'ers are nothing more than PvP with scoring rather than direct conflict (ala HoH, GvG type play).
So, really, untill Anet can show us how it really works, or can confirm what we are seeing as released so far - which we don't think they will do, simply cause some PvE'ers will not go for it and they (Anet) will lose sales - all we have are what we can find on the net.
Some have said merging the two play types is a good idea, others (myself included here) say it's really bad move.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=136299
Take a look at that post, not for content, but read the hostility between PvEers and PvPers. It's wild. Bring those two extremes closer is... wow.

Also, as for joining alliances, some players like the more laid back approach to the game as it is. Factions looks to change that a great deal. I see problems and good things with this (I always try to see both sides). The good is we will meet lots of new people with lots of different interests. The bad is that these people may need help in PvP and look to it's allies for members to PvP with. How is that bad? Simple, if my guild allies with someone and they ask me to join them in PvP, my simple answer is "No thanks". Now, either that will put them in a spot (unless they can find another player - likely) or it creates a rift within the alliance. On the same issue, I may need a few more people to finish mission X and I ask several PvPers to come help. They say "No thanks" now I feel shafted as they did. - This is why my guild is very selective in it's members. Before they join, they are told before hand, they are free to PvP, just don't ask in guild for help with it, cause you'll likely not find it. More tactful than that of course, but you get the idea.

All this looks great on paper, but put into reasonable thought, fails miserably. I do hope, very much in fact, that we are wrong about this. Cause Factions looks to have some really cool stuff, but PvP is not for everyone, no matter how it's sold. - Also, Factions has always made mention of combining or bringing the two extremes closer, but they (Anet) has also said they wont force "players into killing other players" - PvP isn't always about killing the other player.

Edit: once, just once I would love to post without mis-spelling or typo the post to death... sheesh

I don't see how the alliance missions will be anything other than PvP. How do you have a mechanic that determines territorial boundaries without also having to take that territory from other alliances that may hold it? How would you go about doing that? It doesn't take a great leap of logic to see what amounts to a larger form of GvG. The alliances are just a hook. And I don't care how many little guilds align.

Let's take a top ranked guild and even just a middle rank guild. The top ranked guild likely has hundreds of members and the middle ranked guild maybe a hundred. So you're still looking at a considerable force. Now let's take say 8 or 10 little guilds like mine which have maybe 8 members, you know just enough for GvG. It doesn't take a genius to see the sheer manpower difference. Sure they may only be able to field 8 players at a time but if one group loses they will be able to pull together another group with different skills or better team dynamic in no time flat. The larger alliance can continue to throw differing PvP build groups at the smaller alliance until one of them wins and bam territory gone. Larger guilds will always have the advantage. You could go the Roman route and say superior tactics wins over numbers any day but let's face it if you're fighting a top ranked guild alliance with your little pissant guild alliance they probably have better tactics than you do. So I stand by my statement that this newest chapter is going to leave the smaller guilds out in the cold and relegate us to mere observers instead of participants which pretty much makes buying the game pointless. I mean why invest the cash in a new game when you can't really take advantage of any of the new features.

In the end even if they did it by a scoring system, such as the team that completes said mission with the highest score based on this set of criteria gains the territory, the larger guilds will have the advantage still because they will be able to constantly throw groups at it until they achieve the high score. It will be impossible to balance that aspect of the game unless they limit guild membership to an average of all the guilds current enrollment. Again I have a feeling this will be the Sophomore Slump for this franchise, a great idea that got completely messed up in the execution of the follow up.

Now as for forced PvP I agree that it's mostly due to ANet's stubborn insistence on not telling about the particulars of the mechanics. Still you have to think that it is far more likely that PvE people will be forced to create alliances and fight in PvP in order to get the rewards, which they will of course want. I just don't see any way around the alliance missions not being PvP particularly when it comes down to contested territory. The fact that Anet won't come out and deny these rumors adds fuel to the fire so to speak. Even if they just came out and said." No that's not how it will work." it would set our minds all at ease. The fact that they flat out avoid the issue entirely only makes us suspicious. You have to realize most of us hardcore PvE players see PvP as the whiney spoiled sibling that get's what they want all the time while we have to suffer the consequences. Example, HoD helmet. It was a wonderful helmet for running and farming in PvE....nerfed because it created an imbalance in PvP. I'm sure those who pay more attention to the PvP arenas can list more examples of this sort of thing happening. In fact I'd go so far as to say that at the least 60% of the balancing updates have been due to PvP whining about this item or that stat or this mod and how it makes it unfair. Orders, there's another one. We used it to do tombs and to increase the power of melee heavy groups through difficult missions. Nerfed because of IWAY. So yeah we PvE people get a little edgey when we suspect that more of our fun might be sacrificed to give the whiney sibling more fun stuff to do. I think we are also justifiably upset at the potential for PvP being favored considering that PvE people are in the majority in this game. I must stress though that we don't have any concrete evidence that this will happen but at the same time we have no evidence that it won't so instead we are stuck in a paranoid little limbo wondering what will happen to the part of the game we like and even if it will be worth playing anymore. I understand that ANet envisioned this as a competitive RPG, although RPG is really a misnomer, more like a fantasy action title, but there is a time when you must depart from your vision in order to make sure you give the people what they want and frankly speaking most of the people want more PvE stuff, most of the people play the PvE sections of the game with only a handful of the total population actually participating in the PvP stuff on a regular basis. Most of the people want to be able to play the game without worrying about having their favorite equipment or skills nerfed because someone whined about how it disrupts the balance of PvP.

What bothers me the most about this whole situation is that I see these same sort of posts all over the net on Guild Wars forums and still ANet is silent on these issues. I know they are reading these things. They have to be. Yet they still remain silent despite the threats of cancelled pre orders and despite the negative responses they have gotten regarding the upcoming release and the potential problems PvE people see with it. Respect your consumer base! I think a lot of people are taking a wait and see attitude. They will play the preview weekend and probably buy this chapter to see how it works out but you can bet that if the PvE aspects are neglected and the PvE players feel that they are being shafted in favor of PvP you will see huge fall out the next release. If they ignore the PvE base then they will lose them and all that money that comes with them. It's just that simple. I'm not trying to start a boycott I'm just stating facts. You cannot ignore the majority without suffering for it.

well, could they not have an opt in button for pvp type PvE missions?
so, i have a guild of one...me....myself...and all my other chars ^^
i cant exactly ally with a kick ass group, i ean, who wants a one woman guild? (other than the Seamstresses guild lol)
so, based upon what has been said by everyone so far (and WasAGuest,*lovehearts, your a new Net Hero*), im gona get stuck at the front door of Cantha, wheather i make a new char or manage to get accended and travel over to Cantha from Tyria....*sighs*

maybe if i could stay neautral.....and pay a small Toll Fea to the Faction that was currently holding said Area....
i prefer to be a Neut anyway lol...so long as i can do *most* quests, though i do understand and add my voice to a certain amount of Side Only available quests....
(im used to that from Anarchy online....but then, thats why i have one of each side lol....so i can experiance all three sides of the same game)

so, if there was one large chunk for side a, and another of the same size for side b....and thsoe areas were deemed the Homeland of said facton..and never changed hands, nor teretory bounderys....

and everyting in between was up for grabbs...fair enough...

just let me and mine pay a tiny toll for the in between if im a neautral, so i can pass thru...and i have a small outpost/town/territory that is for Neuts and EVERYONE can get in...an no inter faction instathwacking here, neather...^^

oh, and Xenrath.. Mae Govannenn...Quel Re?

I read somewhere that there will be quests and missions that directly pit one group of players against another, including one that crosses both continents. I don't remember where I read it, so can't post a link.

As for an answer to the OP on where PvE is going (and to get on my own soapbox - GW was designed as both a PvE and PvP game, but leaned more towards encouraging PvE - stated in many articles over a year before release, and in the game dynamics before arena faction was introduced to fully separate the need to play PvE in order to be more successful in PvP, which now makes them equals), certainly there will always be more PvE content introduced with each chapter proportionally greater than any PvP content. One only has to look at other MMO's to see that ones that concentrate on PvE have the greater player base than those that concentrate more - or are geared solely towards - PvP play. In addition to the added content, I have no doubt that the AI will be increased to be more dynamic. FPSes, and games like the upcoming Oblivion, Gothic 3, and Crysis show that dynamic AI is starting to mature, so we will definately see the AI truly learn from and mimic the live player experience in future chapters.

Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace

As a PS since this topic has been brought up here as well:
Well, from the beginning, it has sounded like Factions would offer more of an Eve Online type of playing experience - not necessarily a good thing in a game designed for the casual player, as has already been stated here. I'm all for more openedness in games - the Fantasy RPG in particular, but with that openedness comes a multitude of problems - in essence a higher learning curve and more grind to get where you want to be.

The great thing about Prophecies was its structure - you can essentially run through the bulk of the game in a matter of days, or weeks, depending on just how much time you have to play in any particular sitting. While nice in some respects, the static nature does create some boredom. How interesting would it be to go back to Ascalon after playing the Frost Gate mission, and have the entire setting change to reflect the fact that Rurik is dead, and Refugees have left for Kryta?

I think this is what Anet is trying to accomplish with Factions - having the quests and mission you complete have a dynamic impact on the game world at large. While in theory this makes for a more interesting game playing experience - their way of doing it looks like it will limit the amount and type of content we can play at any one time with Factions - which was my biggest beef in regards to the slot limit imposed by Prophecies and carried over into the merged account status with Factions. By not being able to use all primes at any given time, there are certain prime specific quests and items that cannot be experienced. This will seem to have an even greater impact in Factions, as what you will be able to do will be inherent on whether you are part of a guild, whether that guild is allied with other guilds, and whether that allience is part of one of the Factions.

How is my game play going to be affected if I don't want my guild allied with anyone, and if I don't want to join a particular Faction, but remain a neutral party? What happens if I want to join a particular Faction, but some of my guildmates want to join the other Faction, or remain neutral? There are a lot of unanswered questions in regards to this new dynamic they are introducing that should have been answered long before the pre-order was released.

Dynamic game play is a good thing in any genre of the gaming world, however, I don't see how it will work in GW's basic design. If I can play only a limited portion of the content based on the alliances and Factions, then Anet's 6 x 100% math is even fuzzier than originally thought - unless all content (explorable area, items, quests & missions, skills & attributes, strategy) is accessable regardless of any alliances or Faction your account is a part of.

well, i still say...

make 10% of quests belong to one faction or another so that only those who ally with a faction can do/compleat them

allow 90% (ie, the rest of said content) to be doable, even if your of one side or another, or a Neutral

and while im at it...

allow me to stay a neutral, unaligned from any side

allow a neutral player to go into tereatory that is currently held by one side or another, providing i pay a small toll to pass thru/ be able to use the area....this is also dependant on me not breaking any of said factions rules....like if they say no attacking innocent *green ie non hostiles* critters, i can be warned, then fined, then temp-banned from that factions area.

Those are some nice(and Lenghty) explanations the couple of you gave. And I kind of get what you all are talking about now.

But Still, I'm not the kind of person that takes things on face value alone. If anything, I'll use a friend as a guinnea pig to see what is what before just writing it off as not good for PvE of PvP.

From what I gather from the Faqs is that you won't be forced to PvP even if you belong to an Alliance. The way can do this is if the Alliances forces you do to it is if they help get more members in your guild and help do some training with them only for Faction mission not GvG or HA PvP events only.Here read the faqs on it.

http://www.guildwars.com/aboutgw/faq...ctions-faq.php

The only thing I seein that FAQ is the same thing we've already said.

Challenge Missions
Cooperative missions involve specific scoring objectives, such as holding out against progressive waves of enemies. You will see personal bests and high scores displayed within the game.

Right there is your friendlier PvP mechanic. Oh we won't make you fight other players just compete against them based on score. Lame.

Elite Missions
The most powerful alliances have access to new areas that are designed to be the ultimate cooperative challenge.

Sounds intriguing but read between the lines. The powerful alliances. As defined by what criteria? Territory? Faction points? Oh well let's look at the next two to see just where those come into play.

Competitive Missions
Multiple teams compete to control resource points and achieve strategic victory. Victors earn faction points for their alliance which will determine the control of towns and outposts.

Ahah now we get to the rub. Competitive missions. Sounds like more PvP being thrust into our nice PvE.

Alliance Battles
Alliance Battles are large-scale, strategic PvP battles that allow factions to conquer new territory.

Ahhh and the last nail in the coffin. PvP battles for territory. Ok so now those elite missions look a little less promising don't they. We are being baited and it is insulting. "Oooh looky here at the nice shiney elite mission. It's cooperative not PvP. You know you want to play." And then when we drool and salivate and nod our little heads they jerk the rug out from under us and say." But they are only available to the powerful alliances",read as those who have scored more victories or achieved a certain number of faction points.

See and even then I'm really only making logical leaps but leaps none the less. There is no supporting evidence in that FAQ and ANet won't even give us an answer on this issue which makes me suspicious. The only thing that that FAQ has done for me is take the nagging little doubts and make them into large looming ones.

Not silly WaAGuest: its the very stone cold fact you're looking for, and the only answer you'll get from anyone short of a Walkthrough of each mission/quest from a beta tester (which is not going to happen; Anet has the duty to its stockholders to leave us hanging on some issues, letting people playthe game and decide for themselves). I think your opinions are blinding you to the possibility that GWF is going to remain PvE/PvP compliant. Since you've done your homework, you know that Anets staff has doubled since GWP's release; you don't need twice as many people to make Anrena maps, a couple asian style faces and a pair of new proffessions. I read that as increased game complexity; more missions/quests/items/goodies.

Read the FAQ again. I suggest you do this "with a different set of glasses on"; not rose colored, but not the grey you seem to view GWF through. Look through it and ask yourself one question: is there anything here that I will enjoy?

What follows is deffinately a "Silly comment". But it ain't funny less its true too...
All griping and no silver linings makes Johny sound like Chicken Little.

Actually, I started out with a pumped up attitude about the game. I couldn't wait to play an Assassin. So far, that's the closest class to my favorite type, a rogue. So I was pumped up about it. Second, I was looking forward to trying out a Ritualist Beastmaster type character. New missions, new things to play, new things to quest for. New items to gain, and so on.
Then I saw something (which does not belong in this thread) that bugged me. I still would not be able to play all primary characters without deleting one of my other ones. I will not elaborate on this, since it will spin the topic here way off course, but, I'll say I then started looking at what my current characters "could" do there. All four characters have completed the game story line in GWP, so taking them to Factions was the obvious choice. The end game content is what I then started looking at. Anet's descriptions and curious spin began to look "darker" (for me) and I kept looking for something for my characters to do. Each and everything I found, pointed them into PvP gaming or the "mini-games". I've unraveled Anet's spin on PvP and PKing already, but to sum it quickly: PvP is not just killing other players, it's pitting players against players in anything from points to holding areas or simply out living the other team.
I said "No way would Anet make that dumb of a design choice" and I'm still very hopeful they didn't, so I kept digging for info on missions and quests that were non-PvP based. I asked in the forums constantly for links to other data, most of what I got were people saying "Stop complaining", which I never did. I stated the facts of what I had found and asked for confirmation or info too point me in the opposite direction.
Eventually I found no answers other than what I had dug up. PvE'ers can either sit around and wait for territory to open up and then play the game, or they can play a game type they don't want to partake in, PvP.
So, the glasses I'm wearing are as clear as can be really. The skies are just dark over Factions as all my characters will end up "finished" with the game shortly after Factions version of ascention. The rest of the game is then either locked out for me, or a play style I don't enjoy. That means to me, Factions is not an "expansion" (or stand alone) for me. I keep posting here in hopes that Anet will see this dis-taste for that game style many people have and they will patch it to "fix" it so I can play the game, or come on and speak up about it. Anet does listen to it's player base, so I'm hoping they will listen here. What does it take away from anyone by allowing PvE'ers to play the game they like and PvP'ers to play the game they like? But, pushing the two together is "insane" IMO.
As for shareholders and making the money. I know your right about that, but it wont stop me (us) from trying to protect our interests. In fact, I heard last night in Ascalon that all pre-view weekend players will not be able to bring our high level characters to Cantha to try out the new "elite" content. If this is true (and I take what I hear in game with a grain of salt), it means for sure Anet knows they blundered and are hiding the content to increase the sales on it (because they know the PvE crowd will likely be very upset at even more "favor" situations; more locked out content; ect. How are the majority of players going to be able to get new characters to an ascention level and try out this content. They wont, which means it will still be "cloaked". If it's not true, then I will be taking my current characters to Cantha and see for myself how the "elite" missions and quests work.

Hanok brings up an interesting point about Anet's math in Factions. I still don't think this is the thread to elaborate on it, but Hanok, post that in "the other thread" - you know which one I'm refering to Maybe Anet will respond to that.

Thanks, hehe.

Edit: It's confirmed; Anet is not allowing access to the "elite" content for us to see how the system will work. As I said, this means to me, Anet is hiding it's "blunder" (my opinion of course, though it seems many others agree) the best it can to make more sales. Here's a forum link: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=139304
and I'm sure Guildwars.com has more info, but I didn't go there... but I will in a second.

I can see where WasAGuest is going. In many ways I agree - for one thing, the current situation with "favour" I fail to see why it's even necessary in the first place to make PvE players dependant on PvP outcome. The only possible reason could be to "encourage" people to play some more PvP/halls, but then why should they if they don't want to?

The more I think about it the more I'm tending to agree - keep PvP and PvE seperate. Large scale PvE coop battles with alliances of Guilds fighting waves of monsters and stuff? That's fine, several other games have similar modes (most notably stuff like Serious Sam)

The "territory" thing though, ok fine if it must be linked to PvP results, then make it so they just get a "bonus" of some kind, but don't lock out the PvE'ers who, through no fault of their own, find parts of their game unavailable. That's almost like saying the money they paid for the game is not worth as much as someone who PvP's - i.e. nonsense.

In short: if it must be linked somehow then link it so that PvP wins result in bonuses for the winning Faction PvE, but don't make it so the losing Faction actually suffers a penalty in their PvE experience. However, it's probably too late for such decision making/changes to be made anyway with the release date coming up soon.

In regards to using shareholders to keep players in the dark about exactly how Factions is to be played is bad business. Just look at this thread - none of us really knows what the PvE vs. PvP, Alliences, and Factions elements will play into one's ability to explore the game world and complete missions. NOTHING on the FAQ clears up any of the mystery, nor does it explain what happens when a guild wants to remain neutral, or players within a guild want to join an alliance or a Faction while the guild remains neutral or vice versa. I forsee a lot of smaller guilds getting pushed aside because of the alliences of larger guilds, and a lot of players leaving their guild because they don't like the choice the guild leaders have made. All of this should have been explained in great detail long before the pre-order came out. Anet is going to loose a lot more future business if we all buy Chapter Two and it turns out we don't like how they handled any of the above content. We should be allowed to make an informed decision PRIOR to slapping money down on a pre-order or actual product - not after. Does anyone else simply go out and buy something without at least looking at the label first?

I bought GW because I did my research first. The no subscription was the hook, but I still wasn't going to play the game if I didn't like the play style that was offered. A lot of information was available on the first game so I could make that informed decision, and have been glad for it. As of right now, Anet has swung too far in the other direction - what do we really know of Factions at this point in time - a month before release and compare that to what we new of Prophieces a month before its release. That's why I have serious issues with buying Factions in addition to the slot issue, and some other issues mentioned in other threads. Keeping its established player base in the dark is not a good idea if Anet wants to survive past Chapter 3.

We do have a beta weekend coming up - but is that going to help clear up the major issues we have with Factions? I think not. We already know that current characters cannot be used in the event - only newly created characters will be able to go to Cantha. For those of us who have already used up our four slots, that means creating a whole new account in order to participate. We also already know that the high level content will not be accesible - considering that 80% of Factions is for high level characters, that's a lot of game we will not be testing. And how are the alliances and Factions going to play out this weekend? I find it highly doubtful that we will get to see the long-term implications of those items in a three day event, if we get to see them at all. Essentially, this beta weekend event is simply Anet's method of showing this bright new shiney world they created and hoping it blinds us to the more serious issues at hand.

As I mentioned before - making a more dynamic world as opposed to Prophecies rather static world is a good thing, whether the game is a MMO or off-line affair. However, trying to merge to completely different play styles is not an effective way to do it. Read any thread started here (and closed by the moderators for good flaming reason), and you'll see that PvE vs. PvP are two very different camps, and very few of us are part of the middle road that enjoys both aspects.

Anet would have done better by making the game world more dynamic based on how a player goes through exploration, quests, and missions. Playing the Frost Gate mission before doing any of the others or doing any quests should have an impact on those missions and quests in Ascalon, and offer a different experience than the player who does all the quests and missions in their proper order. That's the way to start making your game world more dynamic and replayable. Not by trying to mix oil and water by making an attempt at bringing PvE closer to PvP.

Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
Truth * Knowledge * Peace

Territory is already controlled by PvP albeit in a very limited sense - Access to Underworld and Fissure of Woe is determined by the team that is holding the Hall of Heroes.

You would do well not to make such broad assumptions until ANET chooses to disseminate facts about the new game mechanics. However, I see no reason why territorial boundaries being controlled by pvp teams in anyway would force pve players to pvp. There is nothing to suggest that the new game mechanic could not be just an extension of the current favour of the gods system. Whereby large scale guild battles (and possibly their respective servers) determine when certain instances are available.

I know resistance to change is pretty common thing but jeez, come on. At least wait until you get some facts before casting judgement.

Yup, and lots of people were hoping for less of it in Factions. Players standing around waiting for those areas to unlock is not fun. Keep reading though, more will make since in a minute.

Assumptions is all we can go on right now, simple because Anet will not give good info on Factions.
PvE is forced in this since: We can wait for areas to unlock (as stated above) or PvE can partake in the "new competitive missions". No matter the spin on words Anet uses, it's Players vs Players for score, or whatever. As stated, PvP doesn't have to be Players killing Players.
So, to clarify, PvE can sit and wait (not actually playing), play PvP mini-games or opt not to purchase. This is how PvE is forced into PvP type games. If we want to actually play the game into the upper levels, there is no option.
Now, if Anet would like to release information stating this infomation is incorrect, and I think most of us are hoping they will, I would be very thankful.

Actually, change is what we are asking for from Anet. We are asking for change towards the "locking" of content, the reliance on PvP to play the PvE game. So, change is what we are most seeking, not resisting it.

I think this game is really lacking in rpg. I am so close to give on this game. When I bought this game, I look at the beta box.

I had notice the words "Guild Wars focuses on what's fun in a role-playing game"

If any still has their beta it does say that on the back of the game.


However I have to say I cannot really find anything in this remotely rpg in Guild Wars. Guild Wars has a setup for a RPG. But it really doesn't have any RPG in it. I really beleave anet should take RPG off of the box. It would make alot people life easyer. There would be less fighting over Rpg in this game.

I look at the CE of guild wars the guild wars Manusscripts (manual) I look at the Calendar it is not even used in the game, It is a waste of pages. I have played other MMOPRG's I can aleast says they have tryed to make a good RPG. When i look at guild wars I seen a PVP game.

I can under stand when gamer designer cannot finsh their game. I had thought anet would go back and add these details later I guess I was wrong. Now they are making chapter 2, I don't even really know if they will have any type of rpg in it. I have already bought CE on preorder. I am really hoping there will be an improvement in the RPG, if not this will the last time I am buying guild wars.

I reread Guild Wars website on RPG and I feel like they really never wanted to put any type of RPG in this game. I mean the fact that anet once changed their minds about other races bugs me. Why did I have to come and fight pvp players agin about the topic of adding race. now I see anet had agin changed thier minds on races to add to GW, for the good of rpg and maybe pvp. however I am still fighting with pvp players about things that are important to RPG. Some of them have no clue what is an RPG!

As I read threads and websites from anet and about anet. I see less and less of RPG in guild wars. how much faith can I have with a game designer who says "As a gamer, I don’t know that surface changes, like day or night, would make a significant change in a my interest in redoing a mission".

Why I am even her fighting with pvp players about RPG! When I look at anets web site I see RPG. When I read artiles about GW I read RPG.When I had bought the pre-order around beta it says RPG. If i know how to post a picture on this site I would have made a copy to post onthis site for people to see the words RPG. Even Zelda has more RPG than Guild WAR.

I have played throught every mossion and every quest in the game. I feel like is that it! Sure I like the land scape and graphics. I like trying new skills the new skills. The new bossies but I want to know more about this world of guild Wars.

GW has a nice envirment with nothing in it. I know that anet is a new company so I am giving them a break. However i am really hoping there will be more to fractions or will not be buying the next CE. I am really looking forward to the ship ride, then checking out the jade sea. I am willing to try new ways of playing RPG. I am really tired of fighting with pvp players who don't even know what rpg is. I have come to this site thinking this site is more RPG friendly only find more fighting with pvp players once agin. I am tired of been put down for a game style I like. When I had bought this game I saw the words RPG! Why don't I see RPG In this game?


I have found link to a picture of the beta box. Please read what it says about RPG!

http://www.gweurope.net/images/preor...20-%20Back.jpg

you can zoom in and read it!

WasAGuest, I actually like the favour of the gods system. It made underworld and fissure feel like a special treat for having your country kick ass in halls. But then I guess, some people dont see it that way and are just anxious to get on and solo farm ectos. Time is money after all. MEH.

I have found a picture of the beta box for people to read. here is a link

http://www.gweurope.net/images/preor...20-%20Back.jpg

I had just found it I also placed it on the above post I had made.


note it says "Guild Wars focuses on what's fun in a role-playing game"

Actually, I was speaking in general terms. I myself don't even bother with UW or FoW. Why? Cause it's unrealiable; meaning it may or may not be open when I log in. So I don't bother with those. The generalization comes from this thread and many others on the topic though. Seems more people would prefer being able to enter those areas without the favor system and the waiting around with a finger in the nose kinda play style we have now. Maybe, I might even give those areas a try if they got rid of the current system.
Opinions on farming aside though, do you think it's fair that some players get to play the content they sit down to play right away (PvPers) and others have to sit and wait or be forced into playing something they don't enjoy (PvEers)? I don't and many other agree.
A better way to do this would be to increase the cost of entrance to those areas when your country is out of favor. Increase the drop rate of "goodies" when in favor... many other ways, but locking players out is just not right. This way, PvE can still play the game they are wanting to play... And honestly, for me, it wouldn't be that much of an issue if Anet wouldn't adopt the same thinking to Factions.

Edit: Apparently I can't spell in mid-day either. hehe

That's the problem, I dont' really see what all the "seperate it all" people want. A bunch more bland farming areas? Is that what it all comes down to for PvE?

That the idea of "competitive PvE", not that you're directly attacking other players, but seeing if your team can do better than everybody else, is offensive to people, quite frankly dilutes your whole argument. As someone who plays both PvP and PvE, and enjoys both, the competitive stages are something that I'm really looking forward to.

Is it that people just want more areas to min-farm? (Farm with a minimal size party for more drops)