Why only 2 char slots?

That doesn't make any sense... and you fail to see the main problem people have. Why should there be less slots with merging?

That's the question, not artificial math games...

actually you are wrong, if you have factions only and you play a warrior, all warrior spells arent available. Same with every class. Yes both content is not available, but you wont have every spell for each class if you just have factions.
But if you merge accounts you get 6 accounts and have all spells access.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...5&postcount=14
"If you have access to Factions ONLY, you will get 75 skills per class (25 new, 50 old. Of those you will have 15 new elites and 10 new non-elites with 50 skills that will be considered "base skills". The new classes will of course have 75 skills each.

Faction only players will not have access to any of the current elites. This is all gathered from interviews and mags."

unless this has changed you will have 2 more slots keeping them seperate, but will have fewer spells for each class.

Yes...

(4*0.50) + (4*0.50) = 400%

...is equal to...

(4*1.00) = 400%

ANet could do that by claiming the content is Factions is equal to the content in Prophecies and limiting us to 4 char slots on a merged account. That would be a logical conclusion and, had ANet done this, I would have been sad not have more slots, but I would've understood.

However, even if the content in Factions is equal to the content in Prophecies (which I believe it will be at least equal), ANet is saying to its current customer base that we'll give you 2 more slots for being a loyal customer if you merge your accounts.

A merged account could logically be 2x the value of an unmerged account, but by giving us 6 slots, ANet is placing the value of a merged slot at 1.33x the value of an unmerged slot.

Where x = value of an unmerged slot,
Value of unmerged GW:P slot: 1x
Value of unmerged GW:F slot: 1x
Value of merged GW:P & GW:F slot with access to twice the content: 2x
The cost of a merged slot to those who do merge their accounts: 1.33x

1.33 > 1 ...a merged slot is more valuable than an unmerged slot.

1.33 < 2 ...there is the value offered by merging your accounts.

Remember, you're only paying for unmerged slots. Equating merged/unmerged slots is like equating apples/oranges. They're not of equal value.

Your argument (and your math) was reasonable. I used it to show how you're actually getting value by merging. Thanks.

no, i have read every single word. and yes, i do believe that giving us no extra slots is equivalent to leaving the two accounts unmerged. anet giving us extra slots, however limited they decide, is a bonus to a returning customer, because many would have been unhappy.

i believe what turns you off from factions is that fact that you have 8 profession options, but must choose only 6 (5 if reserving a pvp slot). when i purchased prophecies i knew there were 6 professions and that i could only choose 4 (3 if reserving a pvp slot). would i have wanted more? yes, i would have. but i bought the game anyway. did you know this? would i like more extra slots with factions? yes, i would. but the fact remains that anet will be giving us MORE than what we are paying for, which i think is the real issue at hand.

what i am paying for is not the options provided by the character slots, but what those characters are allowed to do.

is the math really that hard to understand?

ok, let's take it slow. let's say that we both have 1 prophecies account with 4 level 20 ascended characters with all quests and missions complete because we are the type of people who like to do everything 100%. this is our starting point. then, factions comes out.

you, since you want "8 characters," decide not to merge. you once again want to complete everything 100%, so you play through factions completely 4 times. that's 4 times all of the missions and quests. remember that.

because i have been fed anet's "bs math," i decide to merge my accounts. i get to take my 4 prophecies characters over to cantha plus make 2 new ones. guess how many times i get to play the canthan missions and quests? that's right. 6 times. once for each old character and once for the 2 new ones. by merging, i have gotten more game content than you.

does this mean more grind if i merge?
no, it doesn't. this is only IF i want to complete everything 100% will all characters. the one who has to grins will be you. you have 4 fresh new characters you will need to grind for skills, weapons and armors. i will already have 4 fully decked out characters with skills unlocked. i will only need to grind for 2 more.

also, according to anet, new characters in merged accounts can travel back to tyria. that means i can take my new awesome ritualist to fow. you can't.

by merging, i get more content, possibly less grind, and more travel options. this is not bs. please stop looking at the character select screen and think about what you can actually get with those characters.

There is no need for an argument for additonal slots as the burden of proof lies with ArenaNet to prove 2 less slots is justified. extra content is worth somthing but why would there be a reason to remove 2 slots from it? if you dont merge your accounts you would get 8 slots. ArenaNet has an issue when it comes to the math it's 8-2=6. yup its just that simple...

-i would also not be making any fuss if we were given one slot for every profession + 1 for pvp. then i would understand why you only get 2 more slots as there are only 2 more professions...

So you can have one of every class. Right now if you want to try one of every class, you have to delete an existing PC and hope you like the new class better than the PC you've just axed.

they do not have to prove a thing.

play or leave....youre choice

the reason for ADDING only 2 slots to a merged account is because of added costs involved in a merged account that they are not sharing.

that there is additional cost is based on the fact that these people have a lot of experience in this field and have had years to make this decision on slots.

if it cost them nothing they would give them to avoid this

bottom line is that they have the cost figures and we dont.

Hmmm, again with the fuzzy math.....

The question is not if 4*0.5+4*0.5 < 6*1

It's why do we get 6*1=600% and not 8*1=800%

Please don't PM about this debate, we can discuss this in public

Guild wars from day one had 2 less slots than you could create primaries for. SO why are people complaigning about the 2 slots when it has been this way since day one.
If you keep them seperate you get half of the skills/spells half of the world content per account. Yes skills are part of the content. Just you wait till these people that don't merge their account get pissed they arent getting all of the spells in order to build that new uber 1337 "IWAY" or "55" build that just come out that requires both games to have access to all skills.

I had someone PM me that said skills/spells is not part on the game content. I am sorry but if ya think that then fine, go play Tomb raider, because thats what you would have just a 3rd person shooter with swords and sticks.

no, that argument belongs in this thread:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=128790

here, let me make this VERY easy for people who still think that 4+4=8.

your guild is about to do an elite mission in cantha to control territory and is coming up with a team build. an unmerged account has 4 out of 8 profession options (since your 4 prophecies characters cannot join), while a merged account has 6 out of 8 options.

Eh, if this thread isn't about about why we're getting two less slots, then what is it about?

"Why only two character slots?" If not two slots, then what?

i PMed you because i did not think it was that important if skills were considered content...(i still dissagree with you on that point) Yes i do have issue with the way the game is from day one and i am dissapointed that things are not improving... im not sure i understand the Toom Rader comment as this game is more like diablo II... was great you had what 6 diffrent classes and 8 slots... those were the days... oh yea you could also have more than one account.

i enjoy Guild Wars i think it is a fun way to spend time. Does it make me a bad person becaues i question ArenaNet? i think they should explain why 8 < 6. --sry but fuzy math does not explain anything to me.

No, it's not that simple.

That's the problem with the argument that 4+4=8. It ignores the key variable of content by setting it equal to zero. What you are, in effect, saying is that you don't think the content in Factions has any value.

(4*0.50)+(4*0.50) /= (8*1.00)

No fuzzy math from me. I'm not the one leaving out all the variables.

Can we agree on one thing? That a merged slot is more valuable than an unmerged slot? Because if you can't see that, then...well, the mind boggles.

You don't get 8*1=800% because that effectively sets the value of access to the content of Factions to ZERO for those merging with a Prophecies account. Call 'em crazy, but ANet might think that the year's worth of work they put into Factions is actually worth something.

Because you're comparing apples and oranges. 6 unmerged is in fact greater than 8 unmerged. It's only fuzzy to you because you think, unmerged slot = merged slot, which is not true.

Petition for more slots, by all means, but please, please, use a better argument than 4+4=8, which ignores the value of content. It's really making the community look bad.

Ok...so here's how Mrs. Swehurn sees things. I personally don't like the idea of being told by anet that they are doing me a "favour" by allowing me to merge my accounts. Allowing the merge (in my mind) has nothing to do with kindness on anets part. Factions, for as much as it may be a stand alone product...isn't the same as the original was. In the original we had 6 "new" professions to choose from(and yes..I know the game itself was new.....but shouldn't factions have as many "new" options as the original did?) In factions we only get 2. I have less options. Sure I could always use 2 of the old professions to fill the 4 slots that I will have available to me in factions, but why, if I already own the original would I want to make another char that I probably already have 1 of (or have made one and deleted already?)....Hence the idea of merging...you can take your lvl'd chars and loot with you...at the cost of 2 slots. I can't see that I would want to make 4 assassins or 2 of those and 2 rit's..and as already stated...why would I want to make one of the other professions, when I've had a year to tinker around with them?...(ya new content..new maps..etc...but why start from scratch with the same old options?) Truth be told, I don't think a lot of people would be happy...nor would they be willing to purchase factions...were the merge option not available. I'm not complaining about 6vs8 I just don't like being made to feel as though I am incapable of understanding the "real" reasons behind it....besides that...if there are new skills available to the old professions in factions...and someone merges...they can travel back to cantha....and have an advantage that the unmerged do not have....and as such they would no longer be on a level playing field...it's like being given a choice...that doesn't really boil down to much of a choice at all.
Flame away.

That's the money quote right there.

And all these math arguments are pointless.

The choice between 8 unlinked slots and 6 linked slots is not the issue.

The issue is why are there 2 less slots for merging Factions?

No matter what the reason, unless Anet is totally incompetent, you can bet they have a good reason. They would not make such a decision lightly, and piss off people for no good reason.

i don't see a problem in that whatsoever, stop complaining!

It costs them nearly nothing...

but they are afraid to miss the extra revenue of some people buying 2 times their product to get 1 full product. It has nothing to do with additional costs but all to do with a scheme to get more money out of their customers, get them hooked then offer less "content" for the same buck. Like a hidden monthly fee, only paying it in advance. But that isn't a cost... its a lost revenue...

the same lost revenue as not buying more chapter because of not offering 1 charslot per profession.

And as i said on the other thread (wow, two threads arguing the same points, who would've guessed?)

I like your reference to a "hidden monthly fee." That's a good way to look at it:

If you want two versions of GW, then you are paying about $200 a year total (4 x $50 for each Chapter). $15 a month is $180 a year for the standard MMORPG, and that doesn't include any expansions (most MMORPGS have yearly expansions). So, let's say the expansion for WoW is $50. That's about $230 total for yearly WoW, vs about $200 for TWO sets of yearly Guild Wars.

So, even by buying double copies of BOTH Guild Wars expansions every year, you still are saving money over the competitors. Not only that, but each Chapter is totally optional. You don't like what a Chapter offers? Don't buy it. You can still play whatever you have bought, for free, for as long a GW lasts. Try doing that with WoW (even if you don't buy the expansion, you still have to pay the monthly fee).

Man, it just doesn't get better than Guild Wars, at least for now.

Because a merged slot offers more value than an unmerged slot and is, accordingly, given a higher value.

Except that they're not offering less content by giving you 6 merged slots, each merged slot offers twice the content of an unmerged slot.

Sure, sure. But, value for us, or value for Anet (or value for both?)

Ay like I said, that is what they are trying to balance. But a smart move, not really I would have taken it on a tad different and made more money.

by:

1) offering prophecies with 4 slots out of 6 profs (as they did) and the CE with 1 additional sole pvp slot
2) offer factions with 2 slots and 1 pvp slot since 2 character professions as well used standalone or as an expansion.
3) offer a faction CE that upgrades the 'pvp slot' to a normal slot rendering it into 3 slots
4) offer extra charslots at 8$ per piece

They dropped the ball at offering standalone 4 while expansionwise only 2. People don't like to see obvious losses, since that draws out complaints as evidenced by the many threads on htis topic.

And mordokai if you are a hardcore player, then you will not pay month per month but packagewise (like 1 big amount every x months). For example for WoW:a six-month plan at $12.99 per month. meaning +- 156$. Add the normal price of expansions and guess what costs are similar, while wow offers a tad more content. So far for this cheap alternative... [SOURCE]http://wowvault.ign.com/faq/index.php?category=1#1_0_6[/SOURCE]

And eugaet, the chapterwise setup and their comparison with the magic cards made me consider merging future chapters an evidency when buying GW-P seeing that in these options having the extra options is exactly the reason why you bought all these chapters. Therefore all this talk about giving me 2 times the content then if i had not linked is so marketingdriven that I contineously find it appaling that any sane person can actually support it... Why would you buy chapter 2 from the magic cardgame if not to use them together and be more flexible... for the pretty pictures they offer? I don't think so... The reason why they made chapter 2 standalone (or why some cards in the magic cardgame are standalone) is to give the first time buyers the option of hopping in at any time not to use all their cards they have gathered seperately... since that would just be foolish...

man, little did i think this thread would even reach 4 pages, but also getting a math lesson included, just pure guineus. in any of that math was pi used.<insert scarsam>..man i need to put some more perfume on that dead pig...another beer....cheers

Can't argue with that! Anet, read this ^^^^^^!


Agree with this, too. In fact, those arguing that somehow not linking an account is even an option, look at the "merging account" thread and count how many aren't merging. Last I looked, it was ZER0.

People who already own GW are either going to link, or not buy the Chapter at all. As Renegade says, buying an expansion as a stand alone makes no sense. (although the MTG analogy breaks down with this comparison, b/c Magic limits it's Official Tournaments to the most recent expansion, thus forcing serious competitors to buy complete sets of every edition. At least, that's what they used to do. Now, if only someone would compare the price of MTG vs Guild Wars...)

so you buy two 400GB hardisks in a store costing 50$ each for a total of 100$
and not only do you expect that when you fire up your machine there is now only 600GB, but somehow you've actually managed to convince yourself that you get more for your money simply because you get to transfer data?

lol, sounds to me like somebody needs to go back to grade school and retake math...

and Eugate can join you aswell...it's funny how you keep failing to add in the equation of 8x100% > 6x100% .... and no we're not setting the content value of factions to zero, we set it to that of Prophecies, which translated is 50$

like I've said before, merging the chapters was touted as a feature from the get go with Prophecies, the feature should be considered included in the price you pay for Prophecies and whatever chapter you choose to merge with. it was never mentioned anywhere that this feature would come with diminishing returns, beyond that of paying full price for what is essentially an expansion for return buyers. as such expecting people to suffer further diminishing returns buy paying for the feature in cost of character slots(content), is essentially adding a hidden fee, that Anet so proudly said they'd never introduce into the game. good work Anet at contradicting yourself!

Value for us. I mean, I think my merged slots could be up to twice (2X) as valuable as an unmerged slots...that's assuming Factions offers content equal to Prophecies.

ANet has decided to make the price of a merged slot less than 2X the price of an unmerged account. The value of a merged slot will still be 2X, but the price to the consumer for a merged slot is 1.33X.

6*1.33 = 8*1.00

Everyone gets the same value for their money.

Just so we're clear, you expected 6 professions and 4 slots for every chapter of Guild Wars?

no.

and I don't see how you get that from anything I said.

Well, what did you mean by "it was never mentioned anywhere that this feature would come with diminishing returns, beyond that of paying full price for what is essentially an expansion for return buyers."

What is "diminishing returns?" Character slots alone? Number of professions? Number of quests? Number of skills?

I mean, we all knew we wouldn't be getting 6 professions with each Chapter. Why did anyone assume we would be getting 4 new slots? I mean, really, is it that big a shock?

And yes, I agree Anet should somehow make it where people can get a slot for each Profession (+1 extra for PvP), but I never thought that Anet would include 4 slots with each Chapter... by Chapter 10 that would be 40 slots!

What if Factions had NO new Professions, but 2 more slots. Would that make anyone happy?

You're providing an example of comparing oranges to oranges (identical hard drives) and trying to apply it to a comparison of apples to oranges (unmerged slots and merged slots). Your hard drive example is to say that an unmerged slot, which only offers access to 50% of the content, is equal in value to a merged slot, which offers access to 100% of the content.

I've taken that into account, thank you very much. 8 merged accounts is of course more valuable than 6 merged accounts. But is 6 merged accounts more valuable than 8 unmerged accounts? You seem to think not...your arguments state that you think a merged account is equal in value to an unmerged account...a slot that offers twice the content is worth the same as one that offers only half that.

It's funny how you keep leaving out all the variables in the equation.

diminishing returns obviously reffers to character slots(in this case), since that is what we get less of. duh.

if we'd get less of anything else I'd be reffering to that.

That's my point. We get less new professions - how come no one is bitching about that?

And did you expect 4 slots with each linked Chapter?

I haven't heard them stating anything about a new prophecy GWWC, only about a faction one. And I'm pretty darned sure that every hardcore pvp-er that wants to be competetive will merge his accounts to stay competetive in the GWWC. So so far for this trendbreak

expasnions always offer less professions, we are used to that. And if you install it standalone you are getting 8 'new' professions. But characterslots is in most cases not less.

Oh, yeah, but MTG is the opposite: Once a new set comes out, the old set is worthless (in the official tourney's).

Of course, GW won't be like that. Which is just one reason why GW is better than Magic, although not really a fair comparison.

The merged account is the default state, since Factions is only a standalone product in Anet's marketing.

I expect the number of slots added with each chapter to be sufficient so that we have one available slot per primary profession, with an additional slot for a PVP character.

This is duplicating stuff in the "slots confirmed" thread.. but anyway, it seems more and more to me this is at least partly a marketing ploy, to "encourage" people to go out and buy multiple copies of the game (and then going on to buy even more copies of Factions and other expansions.. er standalones.. to link together) - Server costs etc have really nothing to do with it imho.

1) no I'm not. I never said the harddisks were identical. one runs at 2500rpm the other runs at 2800rpm. their storage capacity however is the same individually and in total whether or not I choose to do any data transfer. I do not expect a loss in storage capacity nor do I expect a rise in price, because it's a given that the feature of data transfer is there. no sane business operates with marketting such as "buy 2 for the price of 3!" on the contrary if any change to the 1:1 ratio it'll be "buy 2 for the price of 1!"

2) of course 6 merged accounts is more valuable than 8 unmerged, I never said it wasn't...it is because it's the better of two evils. you keep bringing it up without realising that we're not operating from the offset of 6x100% > 8x50% ... we're operating from the offset that 8x100% > 6x100% > 8x50% don't keep the 800% out of the equation!

If it was low cost and added some new content (maps/missions etc) then sure why not? I finally get to play at least 3 classes I've not currently been able to play primary through the game...

Sorry, if you think questioning ArenaNet makes the community look bad. I think it makes the community stronger.

arguments you might have missed for more slots:

1. There should be 1 slot for every profession -- to explore all of the content in the game we should not be forced to delete previous charecters. a quote from ArenaNet: "There are over thirty different profession combinations and hundreds of unique skills that you can combine to create an endless variety of character builds."

2. "I want more" (like you said) -- this is extremly valid as there is clear value for what i pay for. If i dont think its of value i wont buy it.

3. I am not the only one who wants more.

4. Customers should not be penilized for being returning customers. Fact is, as it stands, you only get 2 more slots for comming back to guild wars. BTW thats 2 less than 4. total of 6.

5. PvP -- one more slot here please or thats alot more content missing.

6. The burden of proof -- There is no reason not to have more slots. This is important! there is no justification to have less than 9 merged slots(with fractions). Now don't get into fuzy math on this point its about the burden of ArenaNet to prove there is need for less.

I did not say that Factions has 0 value. your confusing the issue. The math is not complicated 8 slots unlinked - 6 linked that is 2 less slots. please no more carebare math about percents of content b/c there is no way(this is where yall use that crazy math) to qantify the value of a slot merged or un-merged. a slot is a slot - this part you can quantify.

To say 6 merged is greater than 8 unmerged is a judgment that we make as consumers. The judgment may not be so easy to make. As producers ArenaNet has done a poor job to explain why they are limiting slots. There is not a bit of math needed.

GW1 - access 1 world & 6 chars/4 slots=$50+

GW2 - access 1 world & 8 chars/4 slots =$50+

Gw1+2 - access to 2 worlds, but 8 chars/6 slots = $100+

Regardless, is this Anet's attempt to solve the minor problem with account sharing? I personally believe this is the sole reason for the delimma.