Max, no worries. I wasn't really talking about your posts anyway. You're in the clear, don't worry. It's just that some other people here seemed really snide, and seems like they're just trolling up the Assassin forums, too. Those were the kinds of posts I was referring to, because they're not really talking about counters; they're just being dickish. And really, nobody needs that crap in any sub-forum here, whether it be new classes or older ones.
It's ironic, really. I think the people here cutting down those excited about Assassin builds should take a look at their old screenshots from their very first BWEs and see how horrible their Mesmer skill-sets looked. I'm positive those were nothing short of atrocious.
In fact, I'd be willing to bet even the brand-spanking-new Assassin and Rit builds look far better than the schlock of pre-retail Mesmers, because those A and Rit builds are being designed by players who have a year's worth of combat experience under their belt, regardless of what profession they've been playing.
And really, for essentially completely new professions, I think many of the A and Rit builds we're seeing are pretty damn impressive. I have no problem with Mesmers posting counters (I specialize in Mesmer and Necro currently, so I'm also considering counters to A and Rit). But what I do have a problem with is the dickish tone I'm seeing in some of the posts here. Posting counters is one thing. Making dweebish and snide comments is something entirely different.
Oh heck. Assassins. (Mesmer thread.)
Siren
LightningHell
To all, I apologize for generalizing.
But it does seem to me the Assassin is what the W/Mo was.
After all, I don't like people who act like a total jerk in-game.
But it does seem to me the Assassin is what the W/Mo was.
After all, I don't like people who act like a total jerk in-game.
Siren
What the W/Mo was? Pre-retail, you could see the same "OMG!! I can't wait to try this!!" kinds of builds for virtually any combination people could think of, including W/Mo.
If you mean how the generalized, cliche W/Mo acts today, then I don't really think there's even a correlation between the Assassin build-makers' excitement regarding build design and the morons who think full Knight's armor gives them more protection and that a Fiery Dragon Sword is the only way to go, heh.
The W/Mo delusion of being invincible is nothing more than grabbing the sturdiest class in the game and combining it with a Monk secondary. You can do damage. You can heal yourself. You can swing big weapons.
The Assassin idea of being invincible, however, while probably mis-guided, is not anything close to the W/Mo, because if anything, Assassins are one of the weakest, least durable professions in the game, and I think it's completely reasonable for people to be excited about coming up with a combination of skills that appears to mitigate how fragile Assassins are.
And who knows, those builds might be completely devastating come retail. Blind will always counter physical damage. Inept, same deal. In a 1v1 scenario, Mesmers will always have the edge, provided they're specced correctly.
But that spec largely depends on their opposition not having proper support.
So that's why I think hating on the Assassin forums is a bit lame. Assassins will have the same hex and cond removal that Warriors have now. And I'd think hex and cond removal for Assassins will take priority over them for a Warrior.
If you mean how the generalized, cliche W/Mo acts today, then I don't really think there's even a correlation between the Assassin build-makers' excitement regarding build design and the morons who think full Knight's armor gives them more protection and that a Fiery Dragon Sword is the only way to go, heh.
The W/Mo delusion of being invincible is nothing more than grabbing the sturdiest class in the game and combining it with a Monk secondary. You can do damage. You can heal yourself. You can swing big weapons.
The Assassin idea of being invincible, however, while probably mis-guided, is not anything close to the W/Mo, because if anything, Assassins are one of the weakest, least durable professions in the game, and I think it's completely reasonable for people to be excited about coming up with a combination of skills that appears to mitigate how fragile Assassins are.
And who knows, those builds might be completely devastating come retail. Blind will always counter physical damage. Inept, same deal. In a 1v1 scenario, Mesmers will always have the edge, provided they're specced correctly.
But that spec largely depends on their opposition not having proper support.
So that's why I think hating on the Assassin forums is a bit lame. Assassins will have the same hex and cond removal that Warriors have now. And I'd think hex and cond removal for Assassins will take priority over them for a Warrior.
LightningHell
I do not hate Assassins, don't you worry. I hate the people playing them.
Come off it, I use daggers in real life martial arts training.
Come off it, I use daggers in real life martial arts training.
Francis Demeules
I dont care If you choose to play assassin, ritualist, mesmer, warrior, etc. What I care the most is the player who plays these professions. Im not a guy who is a profession's hater. Yes, assassin is new. We have yet to see the full potential on what an assassin can do during the Beta's weekend. This thread is looks like a brainstorming to prepare to face assassin when Faction comes out. Same thing for the Ranger's forum. Its just a preparation when the time will comes.
Siren
Lightning, you're missing my point. There is zero reason at all to hate the Assassin players. That's what I've been saying all along. The comparison to a W/Mo is short-sighted and myopic. It ignores the fundamental differences between the player reactions in W/Mo versus Assassin. I've explained those fundamental player-base differences in my previous post.
I've also explained that there's a distinct difference between brainstorming counters and the dickish nature of a few of these posts. If you really want to see what I'm talking about, zip on over to the Assassin forums and check out some responses which are certainly not just about counters. They're trolling for negative responses. lol
Some may argue I'm just nothing more than a troll here, but there's a clear and logical reason why I'm replying. The same cannot be said for the posts and posters in question.
I've also explained that there's a distinct difference between brainstorming counters and the dickish nature of a few of these posts. If you really want to see what I'm talking about, zip on over to the Assassin forums and check out some responses which are certainly not just about counters. They're trolling for negative responses. lol
Some may argue I'm just nothing more than a troll here, but there's a clear and logical reason why I'm replying. The same cannot be said for the posts and posters in question.
Ninetail Trickster
OMG I created a successful thread. o_o
Containing an intelligent argument. o_o;
And I haven't been flamed yet. o_o;;
Thought: If assassins are the new (stereotypical spoiled brat) wammo, can we manipulate their psychology? Dumb things are easy to trick...
Mesmer: -equips bow-
Assassin: Easy target. -Shadow Refuge-
Mesmer: -Drain Enchantment- -hexhexhexhexhex-
Assassin: -attack-
Allied Warrior: -picks off the easy kill-
Containing an intelligent argument. o_o;
And I haven't been flamed yet. o_o;;
Thought: If assassins are the new (stereotypical spoiled brat) wammo, can we manipulate their psychology? Dumb things are easy to trick...
Mesmer: -equips bow-
Assassin: Easy target. -Shadow Refuge-
Mesmer: -Drain Enchantment- -hexhexhexhexhex-
Assassin: -attack-
Allied Warrior: -picks off the easy kill-
Francis Demeules
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninetail Trickster
Mesmer: -equips bow-
Assassin: Easy target. -Shadow Refuge-
Mesmer: -Drain Enchantment- -hexhexhexhexhex-
Assassin: -attack-
Allied Warrior: -picks off the easy kill- 1) Equips bow? What do you think? IW with bow? Nah!
2) Why Drain Enchantment, Shatter it because they heal after Shadow Refuge. If they have that elite Shadow step under this enchantment is a waste. Shadow Step, strip enchantment and go away!
Assassin: Easy target. -Shadow Refuge-
Mesmer: -Drain Enchantment- -hexhexhexhexhex-
Assassin: -attack-
Allied Warrior: -picks off the easy kill- 1) Equips bow? What do you think? IW with bow? Nah!
2) Why Drain Enchantment, Shatter it because they heal after Shadow Refuge. If they have that elite Shadow step under this enchantment is a waste. Shadow Step, strip enchantment and go away!
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
Quote: Originally Posted by Siren I've also explained that there's a distinct difference between brainstorming counters and the dickish nature of a few of these posts. If you really want to see what I'm talking about, zip on over to the Assassin forums and check out some responses which are certainly not just about counters. They're trolling for negative responses. lol I don't think I'm there...good grief.
Quote:
Maybe I can change your impression of Assassin players then?|
Originally Posted by Siren
Some may argue I'm just nothing more than a troll here, but there's a clear and logical reason why I'm replying. The same cannot be said for the posts and posters in question.
You are certainly not a troll here. In fact, you have...somewhat...earned people's respect by doing so.
Siren
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
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Quote:
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Sure, why not.|
You are certainly not a troll here. In fact, you have...somewhat...earned people's respect by doing so.
Heh, good to know. As a sidenote, I didn't mean to derail this thread or anything, it's just that I saw some really lame stuff being said in the Assassin forums, and I wanted to see if it was being said in the Mesmer forum. Sure enough, it was, so I'd prefer if players kept the snide comments free of the counters discussions. I know I'd appreciate it, and I'm pretty sure the Assassin forum would appreciate it, too. I guess the idea here is...let's work with each other so we can work against each other? ~_^
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
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Quote:
As a sidenote, I didn't mean to derail this thread or anything, it's just that I saw some really lame stuff being said in the Assassin forums, and I wanted to see if it was being said in the Mesmer forum. Sure enough, it was, so I'd prefer if players kept the snide comments free of the counters discussions. I know I'd appreciate it, and I'm pretty sure the Assassin forum would appreciate it, too. Good to know.
Our main point is that the Assassins that are being churned out right now aren't enough to change our build, though.
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I'd prefer they didn't get information. The purpose of this thread is how to make assassins DIE, not to tell them exactly how to defend themselves from us |
Originally Posted by Siren
I guess the idea here is...let's work with each other so we can work against each other? ~_^
Avarre
Well... I inherently don't like most assassin characters.
Originally Posted by Siren
Back in d2... 99.95% of assassins were named something like 'TRAPURASSLOL', thinking they were so clever with that name. That's kinda carried over... assassins have the 'cool' factor that was previously with wars, and thats going to carry over a few awesome assassins, and alot of chaff. Quote: |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LightningHell
Our main point is that the Assassins that are being churned out right now aren't enough to change our build, though.
And more importantly, never will be. People run Edenial in HA - thats mainly geared to caster shutdown, not warriors as much (which often target them). That won't change significantly in factions, though perhaps some /Me's will bring shackles to hamper the little armorless people running around with knives.
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
Well... I inherently don't like most assassin characters.
Back in d2... 99.95% of assassins were named something like 'TRAPURASSLOL', thinking they were so clever with that name. That's kinda carried over... assassins have the 'cool' factor that was previously with wars, and thats going to carry over a few awesome assassins, and alot of chaff. Well, you'd be happy my Assassin was called...wait, what was it called...ShadowLight. Half Martial Arts, too. I also agree that Assassins sound cool and 1337, and so, many idiots play it. Not saying there aren't good ones.
Siren
Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningHell
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It's worth mentioning that unless Mesmers figure out a way to disable/break stances, whether through primary attributes or a secondary, they're going to find particular skills from Shadow Arts and Deadly Arts to be very painful. Some Assassin builds are already incorporating those skills.
Also, in order to effectively counter Assassins, you'll need to consider a 2:1 ratio. For every one Assassin, you'll need a Mesmer on him, and another Mesmer on their Monk, pretty much looking to interrupt the hex and cond removal only. Healing and Prot will largely be incidental, since Assassins have some nice skills to keep themselves alive; the trick to knocking them out will be hexes and conditions.
Against the Assassins themselves, spell and skill interrupts won't be enough to shut them down. Mesmers should already be getting creative. People are going to need better hex removal than CoP, Inspired, Shatter, etc, and likewise condition removal.
And the funny thing regarding the current first-gen Assassin builds is that often, the build doesn't matter. When the player is intelligent, the typical WarHate Illusion build isn't a game-winner. I guarantee that even the first-gen Assassin builds will be a threat when played well. Hell, even Fangs of Melandru is insanely powerful when the player knows what he or she is doing...and FoM is a pre-built R/A, heh.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Avarre
I'd prefer they didn't get information. The purpose of this thread is how to make assassins DIE, not to tell them exactly how to defend themselves from us
But surely you're aware that the Assassin and Mesmer forums are all of two sub-forums away from each other? People are going to be reading up on whatever may pose a threat to them. If people are so concerned with secrecy, then they're not going to be posting builds, discussing counters, etc.
Avarre
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
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Thats why Anet gave us Expel Hexes!
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But surely you're aware that the Assassin and Mesmer forums are all of two sub-forums away from each other? People are going to be reading up on whatever may pose a threat to them. If people are so concerned with secrecy, then they're not going to be posting builds, discussing counters, etc.
Only the intelligent ones, and they're already capable of being a threat
LightningHell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
Hell, even Fangs of Melandru is insanely powerful when the player knows what he or she is doing...and FoM is a pre-built R/A, heh.
Hell, many top guilds can own with 8 pallys.
Hella Good
Assassins are probably the easiest of the 3 fighter classes (warriors, rangers, assassins) to beat. Illusion magic totally anihilates them, and, of course, you can always do the good old never failing Wrack (or Shackwrack, if you feel like something more exotic). As a mesmer I completely ignore Assassins- I am more concerned with other mesmers and necros than a petty thing with two kitchen knives waving at my Distortion.
Francis Demeules
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
I'd prefer they didn't get information. The purpose of this thread is how to make assassins DIE, not to tell them exactly how to defend themselves from us
They're already know some informations but I prefer to keep my builds in mind. Anyway, almost all my builds keep in secrets (Except my friend who plays a mesmer too and we share our builds). And after checking the assassin skills, I can say my builds wont change a bit. So, I don't worry anymore about them. But I will glad to help those who worry about the "All and Mighty Assassins" (Just kidding). Off course players will check this thread to see what happens. For that, I don't care. They see it. They create a build to counter it. Mesmers see it. Mesmers try something else to counter it, etc. We can continue like this for eternity to try to counter in a counter, in a counter, in a counter............. This thread is not useless. It will be useless when players will be more experienced with these professions and you try by yourself.
Avarre
The power of the mesmer is to create a counter to which there is no counter.
As it is... I haven't seen much that makes the assassin dangerous :/ Conditions maybe, but an ally can handle that completely. I wouldn't be surprised to see assassins very high on the target-priority list, and even lower than mesmers on the PvE selection. They're gonna have a rough time...
Siren
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hella Good
a petty thing with two kitchen knives waving at my Distortion.
You should read up on Assassin skills. We're going to be able to bypass Distortion pretty easily.
And Expel Hexes will only be able to do so much, Avarre. ~_^
Francis Demeules
But they still have a weakness thought
Siren
Ah, but those weaknesses are the same as Warriors, and hence, any remedies to those weaknesses are the same as for Warriors. ~_^
Hella Good
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
You should read up on Assassin skills. We're going to be able to bypass Distortion pretty easily.
And Expel Hexes will only be able to do so much, Avarre. ~_^ I couldn't care less what skills Assassins have- you are either going to get destroyed in seconds by Inpeti and the likes or you are going to have 0 nrg. I bet I can even wand you to death, if that's your thing.
Avarre
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
You should read up on Assassin skills. We're going to be able to bypass Distortion pretty easily.
And Expel Hexes will only be able to do so much, Avarre. ~_^ Ok fine. Let me fix that statement. 'A petty thing with two butter knives waving at my distortion'  I'm not overly concerned about assassins. They don't look much more frightening than warriors so far... and counters to them already exist. Restore condition is going to hurt them... so long as that monk doesn't die (guardian ftw). Expel hexes... is basically twice the power of any hex removal before now. It will be overwhelmed, sure, but it's going to take some doing, if a team is running, say, hex-remover monk (inspired, expel, etc...).
Siren
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hella Good
I couldn't care less what skills Assassins have
And this is why you will fail. Trust me on this. You really need to take a good, hard, long look at Assassin skills.
That goes for you, too, Avarre, hehe. Assassins are going to be much more frightening than Warriors. They already are. You just need to know where to look. I'm trying to get you guys to consider the possibility that existing Warrior counters won't provide the end-all, be-all of Assassin counters. Don't depend on an Inept build. ~_^
Hella Good
I gained over 30k cumulative faction during the FPE. I didn't die to an assassin once... Not once. Not a single time. And, mind you, there was some pretty annoying ones I faced. This encompasses RA, TA, GvG, HoH, and Alliance... Now... if I didn't have the slightest problem with an assassin, I somehow feel I needn't sweat it much...
Siren
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hella Good
I gained over 30k cumulative faction during the FPE. I didn't die to an assassin once... Not once. Not a single time. And, mind you, there was some pretty annoying ones I faced. This encompasses RA, TA, GvG, HoH, and Alliance... Now... if I didn't have the slightest problem with an assassin, I somehow feel I needn't sweat it much...
It's still one weekend, though. You're basing everything on three days. You're selling yourself short if you think that's all the time you could possibly need to make an accurate assessment of how to handle Assassins.
Avarre
There is almost nothing in the assassin we haven't seen in previous classes. Physical attacks, conditions, interrupts. Counters to these already exist... although the teleporting factor is new. That's pre-countered by positioning- if an assassin teleports forwards, he can be smashed by the people around you (the kind that care more about the low AL, like wars and eles). I'm more concerned about ritualists because they bring a very different aspect to the game.
Francis Demeules
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
It's still one weekend, though. You're basing everything on three days. You're selling yourself short if you think that's all the time you could possibly need to make an accurate assessment of how to handle Assassins.
We're based on what we saw. Consider you too for 3 days (5 if for PvP event). Im sure you haven't tried their full potential.
Hella Good
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarre
There is almost nothing in the assassin we haven't seen in previous classes. Physical attacks, conditions, interrupts. Counters to these already exist... although the teleporting factor is new. That's pre-countered by positioning- if an assassin teleports forwards, he can be smashed by the people around you (the kind that care more about the low AL, like wars and eles). I'm more concerned about ritualists because they bring a very different aspect to the game.
Meh, e-denial works very well on those. Plus by the end of the event, I was bringing Unnatural Sig everywhere I went. It went a long way in killing those. I do agree tho that they pose a bigger threat than Assas. I must say both Dissonance and Wanderlust can be extremely annoying...
Siren
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis Demeules
We're based on what we saw. Consider you too for 3 days (5 if for PvP event). Im sure you haven't tried their full potential.
I haven't tried their full potential, true, but one thing I'm not doing is automatically writing them off as "more of the same." Because they're not going to be more of the same. Anyone who's spent some time either playing as them or even just looking at how various Assassin skills are going to fit together wouldn't be shrugging Assassins off as Ineptitude-fodder.
The old strategies and counters to Warriors will not work as well as people think, especially once Assassins are thoroughly field-tested as opposed to a whole bunch of new players going at it during a weekend event. And don't be so quick to go e-denial, too. There are ways around it.
Francis Demeules
3 days, it is just prefect to me to do a full test on these new professions (5 If I count PvP event). Even with different builds, differents tactics to do their combo, using shadow step to jump in and jump out, they still have, that big weakness that non others professions have. This information, I keep it.
Hella Good
Quote:
Originally Posted by Siren
And don't be so quick to go e-denial, too. There are ways around it.
Should I laugh at the joke or you really mean it?
 How exactly are you going to get around me unloading an e-denial pack on you before you even get in melee range? I'm curious...
Two April Mornings
My mesmer will rock your assassin anyday.
Pretty much any mesmer line destroys the assasin.
Francis Demeules
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hella Good
Should I laugh at the joke or you really mean it?
How exactly are you going to get around me unloading an e-denial pack on you before you even get in melee range? I'm curious...
You know about shadow step skills. They can be at melee range right at front of you before you cast any spell. But if they mostly use that Shadow Step I thought, it will be useless to use it.
Hella Good
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis Demeules
You know about shadow step skills. They can be at melee range right at front of you before you cast any spell. But if they mostly use that Shadow Step I thought, it will be useless to use it.
Yes, I do know about shadow stepping and I do believe it's a core strength of the class. However, it's fairly easy to outsmart it. A lot of people just go on mindlessly chasing the assassin when all that's needed is to stay where the skill was cast. I'll give you that a good assassin- and during the last two events I got a chance to play with at least a few people who seemed to have a good understanding of the basic concepts- can exert control over mobility.
This said, I don't think control over mobility will actually hinder e-denial anyhow.
Siren
You guys laugh at me, but having played Mesmer for just as long as you all have (and who knows, maybe longer than some), I can guarantee you that Assassins will have ways around most counters you can throw at them...including e-denial and "any mesmer line." In fact, the e-denial thing is pretty funny. If you're e-denying the Assassin, that's one less Mesmer to target the Assassin's teammates.
Anyway, how's it going to hurt you to develop new counters? What have you got to lose, realistically? New counters (and new philosophies regarding counters) can only benefit you. In fact, the new philosophies and approaches regarding counters are going to be even more important than the actual counters themselves...and pre-positioning won't work enough of the time. How do Mesmers handle enemy stances, anyway? Or general skills that don't have a removable duration, yet aren't attack skills? Do Mesmers run or generally stand their ground when being attacked? Snares work, right? How would they function when the target doesn't even have to use the ground? How would Mesmers handle spell interrupts (or interrupts in general) if they can't even hit their target? Or if they can't cast in general? What happens when the Mesmer's Monk eventually can't remove conditions anymore? What would happen to the Bleed, Poison, Deep Wound, and Cripple then? Not to mention Dazed and Blind? Your only survival there, it seems, would be figuring out how Mesmers can kill stances. Things to think about before you write-off Assassins, folks. And topic for discussion, perhaps?
Avarre
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Your only survival there, it seems, would be figuring out how Mesmers can kill stances.
No. Wrong. |
While assassins pose some threat to the mesmer, so what? Mesmers aren't going to change dramatically. We'll still mainly be used to take down casters. It will more likely be the necromancers (using the new shadow of fear, and other skills) that will be the direct opponent to assassins and other melee classes. As it is, warriors and rangers often target mesmers. They can daze, hit, give conditions, cripple, etc. That's basically what assassins will do... and who says they'll even target mesmers? Considering our cast rate and their interrupt styles... not happening easily. More likely used as back-row caster-killers, to hunt monks/ritualists or for flag running. While the thread implies a 1v1 counter-fightout, in team dynamics all the weaknesses of either class are going to be covered. Mesmers aren't going to specifically spec to kill assassins in 8v8, besides the occasional shackles or diversion tossed on them perhaps.
Hella Good
K, let me clarify something. Mesmers are loaded with two main lines of skills. One is meant to counter casters, the other to kill fighter classes. Both are equally potent, altho anti-casters is what Mesmers are mostly used for. The third line is e-denial. E-denial kills all. In fact fighter classes are easier to kill with e-denial, because of low nrg pool/low regen. (I think I mentioned in a previous post Wrack and esp. Shackwrack)
Now, the only reason we got to talking e-denial was because Siren was argueing the case that Assassins will be able to somehow (beats me exactly how) avoid being e-denied. It was an argument based on a one-on-one situation where supposedly both the Assassin and the Mesmer will be fighting each other instead of choosing to rather fight something higher on the priority list like a Monk. Now back to what Mesmers are used for. There is a reason why Mesmers are probably the most hated and also the most valued class in PvP > they can adequately handle anything. The point that most people in this thread were making was that Assassins don't change that anyhow, even tho they introduce new strategies to the game. In other words, Assassins are no bigger threat to Memsers than Warriors or Rangers are. No one is going to start picking their hair off... Instead, what we are saying is: "We've got you covered." Whether it's going to be the e-denial we talked about, Illusion builds, Shackwrack, Empathy, whatever... Mesmers have a way to deal with it.
Siren
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Originally Posted by Avarre
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Mesmers aren't going to change dramatically. We'll still mainly be used to take down casters. It will more likely be the necromancers (using the new shadow of fear, and other skills) that will be the direct opponent to assassins and other melee classes.
Quote: As it is, warriors and rangers often target mesmers. They can daze, hit, give conditions, cripple, etc. That's basically what assassins will do... and who says they'll even target mesmers? Considering our cast rate and their interrupt styles... not happening easily.
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Mesmers aren't going to specifically spec to kill assassins in 8v8, besides the occasional shackles or diversion tossed on them perhaps.
Exactly why I'm saying that Inept is going to be a waste. Why the "traditional" Mesmer WarHate builds aren't going to see as much action as some here are suggesting. And if Mes is throwing occasional hexes their way, two or three hexes won't be enough to shut them down, especially when the Mesmer's Necro buddies are disabling other melee characters. Quote:
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