Holy God am I angry - PvE and Ritualist ashes

I'd imagine it would then have to be stackable to compensate for it not being global anymore. That way Rits would have to choose between your ashes armor or HP up armor or Energy up armor. Or they could mix and match and be more flexible but not as specialized.

Yes, I mix and match too, and I think it's a problem.

Anyway, I think I've derailed this topic enough since it's not about the armor so much as about fixing a blatant exploit of the poor enemy AI.

ok this is completely off the topic of the original post, so bear with me. Think about what ppl are doing when they grab the gear/book, i mean really think about it. Because what u are essentially doing is "stealing" an item from the monsters that reside in that area. I mean i watch hoh battles and when sombdy from the opposite team steals the res artifact the whole team goes berserk and hunts down the person whom has it. So, if real players do this why shouldn't monsters? And as for the ritualist grabbing aggro whilst holding ashes i agree with everybody else it needs to be fixed. Happy Gaming!
~~Kenshin

it's a problem when the monsters do it *to the total exclusion of all else*, because while players will (or maybe I should say *can*) recognize that, while the other team has stolen their artifact and is getting away with it, they can't win, the mob AI has no such decision making capability.

The "target score" of the item-holder should not be so much higher that it causes the team to TPK itself by ignoring key enemy team members. Want your item back? Take out their monk so they stop healing their warriors. Take out their Elementalist so they can't have wards. It doesn't think strategically enough, because it was programmed badly. It was programmed "IF pc.hasItem(playerName) { attackPc(playerName; }", which is a really lazy way to do it, and players are exploiting its idiotic simplicity.

It needs to stop, and the way to stop it is to improve the AI and let it make better choices about how best to approach the problem of retrieving its artifact.

It's entirely possible that it was programmed that way because it was made for PvP, where the mob's poor AI is a much lesser factor than it is in PvE, but the fact of the matter is that that poor AI is a *huge* problem in PvE. Fixing it for PvE would also make it better for PvP (more of a challenge), and that's a win/win for everybody.

eudas

i used the elite grasping was...(forgets name), its the elite one that does kd, and then i followed it up with aftershock. I did get a lot of aggro, but it worked to my advantage on occasion.

This said, many have complained of having all the enemies aggro their target, regardless of proffesion. A ranger at FPE complained of having loads of aggro, and he wasnt using ashes. I am sure they will sort it.

<DISCLOSURE>
In the name of disclosure let me state that I have a Necro that I farm with a lot. I never made her to farm with, but it just turned out that she was very useful when it came to farming. I finished the game with her and found there was little else to do. Also, she is my 3rd character that's been through the game.
</DISCLOSURE>

One of the things I don't understand is why people have a problem with the gear/barrel trick.

Is it because you have a profession that isn't desirable for those farming runs?

Is it because you can't afford the the greens/shards/ecto that other people farm?

Is it because you don't want to see other people PvE in an unconventional way?

Is it because you view it as unfair in some other way?


I really mean these as honest questions and not as insults at all. I just fail to see the real problem other than people may be making a lot of gold from these runs. Overall prices are dropping on everything because farmers have figured out how to farm so well. The average player benefits from this because they can then buy the stuff they want for PvE/PvP. Even if you choose not to buy greens you can still PvP a PvE character using easily obtainable collector's weapons.

I think I might become unpopular for saying this, but what it seems to me is that these complaints are just a form of jealousy. Why complain about it when it's 100% possible for you to do it yourself? If you don't like doing it then DON'T DO IT, but let other people play the game in whatever way they want.

Lastly, I believe the real problem here is that a Ritualist is not a good tank and so having an urn draw aggro really does degrade the effectiveness of the class overall.

i dislike the "book trick" because it's a blatant abuse of poor AI coding. i don't hate the players for doing it, though -- they're just working within the environment that they're given. what i do hate is that 90% of the AI coding in the game is abysmal, and it is never, ever addressed, unless it is for anti-farming, and even then, it is the bare minimum required to sorta kinda address the issue, mostly. (aoe update for example.)

ANET: PAY MORE ATTENTION TO IMPROVING THE AI. SERIOUSLY.

eudas

The Gear Trick makes the game too easy. It completely trivializes most encounters, reducing enemies to braindead zombies. I don't enjoy destroying gimps.

I know it's 100% possible for me to farm with a gear/book- I've done it a lot. I farmed SF quite a bit, back when it was the new shit. Using a gear tank, it was never a question of 'can we do it?' It was just 'how fast can we do it?' Gear tanking makes farming faster and easier by completely destroying any challenge there might be in an area. Anytime you can get a significant reward with no effort, I think there's a problem. And that's exactly what the Gear Trick allows.

What's the significant reward you're getting? A miniscule chance at Bortak's greens? A miniscule chance at Victo's Bulwark?

I'm still not seeing why this trick makes your game any less enjoyable? Are other players damaging your game experience? If so then that's a real issue. Otherwise it's just sounding like sour grapes.

I think you're trying to enforce your notion of what a good MMORPG should be on the rest of the people who play this game. I don't agree at all with your statement that there's been no effort put forth. It's effort to go spend 1.5 hours in UW and finish. The same goes for SF. It's just that it doesn't fit your idea of effort. If you want challenge then don't go with a gear tank. Go down into SF with a normal mixed PUG and have your challenge.

It's hit and miss. I kept croaking because I keept getting surrounded, and what I ended up doing was carrying the ashes that knock the enemies down. When I got swamped, I'd drop and run. I wasn't aware that carrying something was the reason I kept getting swamped. I was playing with a ranger, and they were hardly touching her at all. Me, I was buried almost constantly, and kept dying, and we couldn't figure out why (until now). I figured that they came after me because I was something like a pseudo monk.

I'm a glutton for punishment and kept playing a Ritualist anyway. A lot of the ashes had dropping side effects that were useful if you are getting swamped. Blind enemies, knock them over, or heal you; the first two only work if enemies *are* close, so it works for a decent "bait" sort of trick, but with a Rt armor, it means you're the sacrificial lamb. If the NPCs didn't suck at res'ing me, I might have taken the whole thing better. :P

It's possible to use it to your advantage, but I can see how this could be frustrating to someone who is still ramping up on the game. If it's this bad at 20, what will it be like at level 1?

Where is this fabled win button...I know I would use it. GW PVP is better anyways.

honestly, when i read this, all i can hear is "you're not the boss of me! you can't tell me how to do it! nya! nya!"...

eudas

MY thoughts? humm gee.... Buh Bye now..

Why complain about something that doesn't affect you adversely? If you're hear to complain about improving the AI because it would be a better experience for everyone involved then that's fine. Yet up until now I haven't heard too much in that vain. Most of the complaints really seem to stem out of some hidden jealousy or some misguided attempt to make everyone enjoy the game a certain way.

Honestly I'd love to know what you think would be accomplished by getting rid of the gear/barrel tank? (Other than satisfying your need for strict adherence to some MMO ideal.) Until you can tell me that I don't think your complaints are valid.

Also, nice attempt at portraying me and my argument as childish. Next time you try and argue a point it would be wise not to invent statements, attribute them to me and then attack them (however indirectly).

Poor AI in the game affects my game experience adversely. Improving the AI would create a better experience for everyone because it would make the game more challenging and more dynamic.

The "book trick" is just a way of circumventing the primary challenge of the game by using the poorly coded AI to force it into a lesser, secondary challenge.

Improving the game AI benefits everybody in the long run.

eudas

Proof? I assume you mean by giving us all more enjoyment?

Actually it seemed to me the AI was vastly improved in factions. Maybe I'm wrong, but as a guy that played ALOT of PvE in GW it seemed it was much more challenging then the normal game play in the previous chapter.

This AI choice will affect me adversely if I choose to play a Ritualist. I'm looking forward to playing a Ritualist. I am NOT looking forward to being denied use of 1/4 of my skills, simply due to the fact that using them will cause every mob in the area to freak out, break aggro, and attack ONLY my 60-AL having Rtualist.

You can not apply the logic of "it doesn't affect you if you choose not to use it" to Ritualist ashes. This completely misguided AI choice will not only populate the entire Pve side of GW:F with idiotic "ash tank" groups, it will render a good amount of skills useless for primary Ritualists.

Put it this way:

What if every time you used a Ranger "preparation", every mob in the area target-locked on your Ranger and attacked it exclusively? Would you just say "well don't use preparations, then"?

What if every time your Monk maintained an enchantment on someone, every mob in the area target-locked on your Monk and attacked it exclusively? Would you just say "well, don't maintain enchants then"?

I am left with the following alternatives:

1. Do not play a Ritualist
2. Do not use the "ashes" skills if I play a Ritualist.
3. Use the "ashes" skills and enjoy getting single-target-locked every time I do.
4. Appeal to ANet to remove this bit of AI logic.

#4 seems like the most feasable choice. Removing the book trick is secondary. Making it not work with Urns is of the utmost importance.

Regarding the gear trick in general: it's assanine to think that the Stone Summit would ignore everyone in the room that's dealing damage and healing and concentrate only on a warrior with a gear who has ZERO threat potential. There's just no way around that fact: the guy with the gear has NO threat potential whatsoever, yet the AI will attack him relentlessly and completely ignore everyone else, including those who DO have threat potential. It's retarded. It insults my intelligence in a way. It makes PvE players look less like strategists and more like mindless exploiters of idiotic AI. That bums me out becuase the PvE side of this game has AMAZING strategic potential. that's how the gear trick affects me. It devalues the gameplay of what should be a very strategic, fast paced, reactionary game and turns it into a moron with a gear and Life Barrier, herding red dots into piles to be summarily nuked and plundered. GG.

If they don't fix the "urn effect" it WILL affect me, becuase my Ritualist will be pwned every time she holds ashes, and because the entire game will become overrun with W/Ri ash tank drones and cookie cutter 5-man farming builds... IN EVERY SINGLE OUTPOST AND MISSION.

Actually I'm pretty much in agreement about the ritualist and urn thing. I don't know how it's going to play out. It may be that you and all other ritualist players develop better strategies to deal with mob aggro when you're holding the urn. Maybe that will increase your enjoyment of the game because you've been able to conquer the AI in a meaningful way. OR, ArenaNet will change it so that you don't aggro and some of the skills ritualists have are nerfed a bit.

I don't like the idea of useless skills so I hope they are fixed. I won't agree with your charactarization of "ash tank" groups as idiotic. They are people that are playing within the game's rules and using them to their advantage. They are making a profit of course, but it's there time and they can spend it freely, regardless of how you perceive it. If it bothers you so much then you should consider getting into a PvE-non-farming guild and only partying with them. It's a realistic alternative.

I don't think I ever stated that you shouldn't use urns. I was simply stating that I didn't think the arguments given this far against gear/barrel farming were valid. They are distinct from the whole problem with ritualists drawing aggro when they hold an urn. One is whether or not an AL 60 class should have skills that draw aggro. The other is whether or not it's okay to have AI and items in the game that make it easier to farm, and how that reduces the enjoyment of the game for everyone.

^^ Agreed with #4. If you're against farming then I guess you'd want it for both reasons; anti-aggro/self preservation and anti-farming.

Well if I come at this from your roleplaying angle I could simply say that the Stone Summit don't want you operating any of their machinery because that would potentially give you access to their secret robot dude. Or they don't want you to get a barrel and blow open any of their secret chambers. They're xenophobic and want to destroy any threat they see. They are also a bit narrow minded (ala their refusal to integrate with humans). So that narrow-mindedness blinds them a bit in battle.

See where I'm going? You can't make up PvE scenarios to defend why the gear/barrel tactic is an exploit because I can make up equally plausible ones to defend it.

Also, the strategic potential of Guild Wars lies solidly in the PvP portion of the game. No AI we have today will ever match the human mind when it comes to strategy.

The gear trick in no way devalues your game play if you don't use it. You're free to avoid it and have a difficult but rewarding adventure in SF.

I feel for you about the "urn effect," but I totally disagree about the last part of your statement.

So if there is no build diversity in PvE that's bad because... you can't get a decent mixed group together? I seriously doubt it. I think every person I've ever farmed with has at least 1 other character that they PvE and don't farm with. A lot of farmers (like myself) have a farm character just to earn a bit of cash. For me, my farming Necro paid for all the other gear on my 2 non farming chars even though she was the last character through the game. I still run my Ranger and Monk through missions to help guildmates and friends. I PvP them too now that I have upgraded/cool gear for them. I also have a PvP slot for experimenting. Overall the game is much more fun because I could farm a little.

Eh...sorta. It was a combination of things: limited skill combinations on the player part, quite a few monster exclusive skills, better skillbars for monsters, better balanced groups for monsters and, last but not least, absolutely terrible healer/prot henchman AI/skills.

Which I guess is kinda what the topic is about. The monsters were improved quite a bit but still froth at the mouth, bang their heads, and kamikaze themselves at the one person in the party that's holding an item.

Go fig.

actually, this thread has really devolved into two separate discussions. the OP was less about the book and gear trick than about the ritualist ash line having the same effect.

so let's focus our attention on the facts regarding the ashes line of skills for the ritualist for a second...

1) a large portion of the skills of the ritualist class is based on the ashes

2) although some of the ashes skills are quite nice, they are not so overpowering compare to skills of the other classes (not so overpowering that they require a super-aggro as a counter)

3) anet created the ash line to diversify the ritualist (if all they wanted for an effect was a super agro bubble, then they only need to have one skill in the ash line "Channel Was Aggro Ashes -- attract all monsters while holding ash")

4) my guess would be that the ashes skills are balanced by the fact that you are holding ashes (hence the in-hand stuff like focus are not in use).

Conclusion: the aggro super-bubble effect of the ashes skills was probably a bug. Most likely what happened was that there was an AI if statement that says something like if a character is holding something he / she would get the priority of the monster's hostile attention. Unfortunately, the ashes skill fulfills this condition, hence created the fore-mentioned problem.

My idea of a fix: either make it so that the ashes is an exception to the above AI routine, or modify the AI routine, so it's not ALWAYS the case that the characters holding things will have such a high priority of hostile attention (a random seed might work here).

EDIT: to moderators: this thread (or something similar to it) probably should be in Sardelac as a request for fixing the ritualist ashes problem - thanks!

Yeah, go ahead anet nerf yet ANOTHER huuuuge income maker for like hundreds of players, if you want to play the game proper, get a regular group with 8 players.

In nerfing gear tank(or any other aggro grabbing thing, Ashes, Kegs, Book w/e) , you would make more holes then you patch up.

And goddammit dont let the green prices go down the tube PUHLEEEEEEZE

It's because it's an exploit. It's just mind-boggling that ANet hasn't fixed this obvious exploit, which I reported first time last June. It needs to be fixed, even if it means your cookie-cutter SS necro will have a somewhat harder time farming, as you wont be safe from attack any more.

Also, regarding all this talk about the weak armor of ritualists... two words: 55 ritualist.

Hi, welcome to Guild Wars Guru. Your post is not appreciated because adults are talking at the moment. If you'd like to elaborate on your post other than foaming at the mouth on an internet forum, please do. Until then, you will be ignored, flamed, or both.

T hidden agenda:
I see where you're coming from. I just think it's odd that if it were really a bug, why would Rits get armor that increases AL while holding an item? I'm hoping they just haven't implemented the changes thoroughly yet and will do something about monster AI and player item holding.

They should fix the Rt a lil bit for pvp cuz its hard when the keep spamming spirits and whooping our butts >.< but i like it lol

well, as I mentioned, while a ritualist is holding ashes, the typical items in hand won't apply -- so no energy adding focus, or armor adding shield. so perhaps the ritualist armor is meant to compensate for that?

Well, that makes the two of us.

From a software engineering perspective, it doesn't seem like it would be a difficult thing to fix... It could simply be that they didn't get around to fixing the book / gear trick and it's only now that it became a very serious problem...

Very well could be. I know a lot of times bugs/glitches just don't get fixed until they're prominent "enough."

Ok, sorry to burst your bubble, but this aggro thing has been answered before. If I recall correctly, since you aren't holding a weapon, you are considered the weakest in the party. Therefore, the monsters immediately aggro to you. Has anyone every tried unequiping their weapon instead of searching for a friggin book? lol

Why do you care if I have a "cookie-cutter" build? Your complaint sounds like more sour grapes to me. Besides, what build would you have me run oh king of PvE? I wouldst know that I might build it and run it! Okay enough laughs, seriously... I have a full set of Droks armor with all three scars (blood, death, curses) so that I can run in any mode. I have a 55hp iNecro set of 15k scars that I play around with but do no serious farming with. I PvP a bit only on this character because I have "perfect" collector's weapons and a few greens I consider worthwhile to use. All this has added to my enjoyment of the game immensely since the PvE content has been so small. How has it detracted from your experience in the slightest?

I think you might want to spend your time and energy on something else too. ArenaNet knows that a lot of this game is built around human farming. The core group of people that still play the small amount of PvE content after over a year are people that farm. They provide a steady stream of items to the "casual" weekend player at ever decreasing prices. I'm guessing that nothing will be done to change it because benefits both the farmer and the casual player.

As for a 55hp iRitualist... unless theres a -50hp aggro holding urn somewhere I doubt there will be such a build.

Thanks but, yes, we're all aware of that. At least those of us that understand the game mechanics.

okkk, ive played with RT all of this factions weekend, and yes it was a f****** s***t to stay alive because of agroo on me. i was playing rt/e with aftershock, shockwave, blind urn and hp recover urn. even that way, was hard to play. i explored most of kurzicks part of the map. got owned lots of times with 3,4,5,6 mobs on me. they need to fix this dam n agroo stuff.
Think if u get a rt going to uw = death on the first mob. its not a fair situation, owww or at fow: +- 5 berserk skeletons + 2 bonders + 2-4 others ALL on u as rt with an urn. tell me how to still play that way. and no, cant do a 55 rt, even with mesmer mobs around.
SF is other place ull not survive.
just telling that it'll be death sentence to rt for almost places on pve.

this is, not even thinking of the urn tank for every place.
and no, the AL bonus for holding a urn justify the agroo, the + AL will make difference for an attxe ??? or a troll from fow ? or againt lots of mobs on u ?
No no and no.
necro has armor with 70 AL, so it means they're made to be agrooing too ?
i dont think so.

this "bug" need to be fixed, otherwise factions will come with 1 new class to play, not 2 , at least for pve.
i loved rt, but this way its hard to have some motivation to play with it.
I dont like the keg/book/gear trick, but not complaying about that.
the AI sure need some improvement. i hope they change before release.

QFT. And also quoted because you said it better than I think I ever have.


...at least from a less outrage-driven perspective, heh.

But yes, it stands to reason and bears repeating: The ashes skills aren't so overpowering as to deserve super-aggro on use as a balancing point, and they definitely are balanced by the fact that you can't hold a weapon/offhand while you hold the ashes. Ritualists are experiencing blowback from an AI choice that has existed since day 1. I really hope they fix it, at least for Ritualists. I don't care about gears, kegs, and books... I just don't want conjured urns to invoke this AI choice.

W/Rit = permanent item stance tank.

So you don't have a SS necro which teams up with a 55 monk to farm the UW, then? Well, my mistake. Right?
No, I'm talking about exploiting a bug in the AI. Your complaint sounds like you're doing just that, and don't want your favorite exploit, which've made you afford you those perfect weapons and 15k scars you brag about, fixed.
One which doesn't rely on exploiting a bug in the AI, perhaps?
How fortunate there's a -50 offhand item, then, considering that there is no such thing as 105 invincimonks. Oh wait, there are. Damn.

Well you still didn't give me an approved list of builds you'd like me to run. With 75 skills per profession that shouldn't be too hard. I'll even narrow it down for you... Necro primary and Warrior/Monk/Mesmer secondary. I'll even let you pick from the Elementalist line too.

Also, what would you have me do with my 3rd character that's finished all the missions and quests? I see my options as the following:

1. PvP - done that and still do. All skills are unlocked as are all items.
2. Repeat PvE content/missions - on a 3rd character I've had enough.
3. Help out guildies - I do that constantly and that's fine. I even give them items and plat.
4. Farm - make money so I can equip my current characters with the best stuff and have some extra cash for my new Factions characters.
5. Running - I guess I could roll a warrior and run around Tyria for payment/tips. (Is this an exploit in your book?)
6. Roleplay - absolutely uninteresting to me.

Did I miss anything? I don't think so, but I do think you're missing one important thing: ArenaNet likes human farmers because they are all that's keeping Prophecies PvE going. That and a small trickle of new players.

Lastly, you're correct. I don't want this game mechanic changed. It's added to the enjoyment of the game for me and a lot of other people. I think there are plenty of people like me who have grown tired of the PvP options in Prophecies and are 3x done with the PvE content. Making cash is all that's left. ArenaNet doesn't want to lose me and all of those like me. Otherwise they would have shut down SF/UW/FoW/UW2 farming immediately.

I suggest you spend your energy elsewhere. Maybe doing the things you enjoy instead of complaining about and criticizing what other people are doing/enjoying?

Playing (exploiting) as gear/book/apples/lollipop tank has got to be the most mind numbingly dull way of playing a warrior type there is... it's already been explained before how this kind of thing is bugged/exploity and so I hope they fix that stuff in one fell swoop. "Fix" is different from "nerf" btw

Why should the mob AI regarding held items be modified?

Because skill balance (for the most part) in GW is based on 8v8 PvP (i.e. GvG). The current mob AI regarding held items is significantly different than how enemy players react to held items in GvG. This difference is enough that a properly balanced skill in PvP is imbalanced in PvE.

Should PvE players have to intentionally change the difficulty of their PvE experience by using/not using these skills? I think most players would rather have all skills available and the difficulty of the experience be determined by team work and play skill.

You know, it's OK for you to move on and find other games if you've finished one and are done with it. Really!

eudas

That goes for you too you know. Instead of complaining that something's not fair or needs changing because you dislike it you're also capapble of going somewhere else. Vote with your feet!

If you're not finished then I fail to see the point of your posting to this thread? How is my farming SF affecting your low level character?

Ash holding Glads D W/Rt ftw in PvE!

Several people have mentioned that the gear trick makes the game to easy. Since it can only be used in a very few places I fail to see how it would make the entire game (PvE) any easier. It does make several popular farming areas easier. Having said that, I never realy took a stance for or against the gear trick.

But ...... I do hope they change the thing with the ashes, as that could (and would) change the entire game, making it far to easy.