Holy God am I angry - PvE and Ritualist ashes

So you don't believe that giving people other things to do besides farm would lessen farming. Interesting. If we followed your logic we'd be forced to conclude that eliminating all PvE areas would be the best way to eliminate farming. Or do I misunderstand you?

I for one like doing the new quests and exploring new areas. I can't be doing two things at once so if I prefer to explore/quest then I must not be farming. Seems to me that at least some portion of the playerbase will be doing these quests, especially if they're challenging.

What we have now is a game that's about a year old with no substantial new PvE areas and the same PvP it's had since day one. What are people who have finished the game several times over left with?

Who's to say that I'm not already a good player? You? Where are your credentials to be the judge? You imply that people who farm aren't good players. I think your making vast generalizations and a big assumption there.

Please don't comment about my logic when yours is so poor.

I don't think it was a stab at you personally, but a blind monkey missing three fingers could farm using that book/gear trick. I don't find much enjoyment in something that is easy...but to each his own right. No need to get worked up over something trivial.

This thread has wandered a bit from the original topic...

Outstanding...great line.

Another line:

An infinite amount of monkeys banging randomly on an infinite number of typewriters, given an infinite amount of time will produce all the great works of literature.

Puting it another way:

A million people playing GW for over a year will figure out how to farm anywhere there's a profit in farming.

If removing gear/book/whatever farming is what it takes to make ashes ritualists playable beyond tanker builds, then I'm all for it.

Yup, I agree. If it has to be "all or nothing" then I'm 100% in favor of sacrificing every "held item trick" in the game, just so that Ritualist ashes will be viable skills for primary Ritualists, and not just for W/Ri.

If ANet can selectively code it so that urns don't draw aggro but other held items do, then more power to them. It will surely make the gear tank farmer apologists happy.

However, it occurs to me that if they could have selectively coded it, they would have from the get-go. I believe (and I'm basing this belief on pretty much nothing besides gut instinct and what rudimentary understanding of coding I have) that it would be much harder to selectively code item aggro than it would be to "all or nothing" it. It'd include adding a whole new variable and calls to it, etc etc.

And anyway, quite frankly, I'd just love the laugh-fest that removing all item aggro from the game would cause, in the form of "I'm ragequitting" and "ANet has ruined the game" posts on various fansite forums and ingame local chat. It'd be glorious fun to watch. The day they remove item aggro, I'm making a beeline to War Camp 1 and watching the fireworks. (Good thing they sell dwarven ale right there!)

ok, about the code, i understand about being a programmer.
As far as i known, they can pretty easy go to the part of code regarding the agroo done by holding an item, and make some cases or conditions for it to work.
A point to make it more clear : every move, action, skill used, triggers an event / function in code. So, all the ashes from RT do it too.

If anet wants to keep the keg/gear/book trick, all they need is to make a condition about what the player is holding and check if that is an ashe [if the function called / property of the item thats being holded].

this is a silly example of a code :
// a function for the selection made by the monster to attack.

public Monster_target_choose() {
if (player.hold_an_item () = true) {
If ( Player.holded_item.property == Rt.ashes.property ) {
Monster.attack(Player) = false; }
Else { if (Player.holded_item.property =! Rt.ashes.property)
Monster.attack(Player) = true;}
} else {Monster.attack_normal() = true;}
}

translate of code :
- if a player holds an item, then it verify if the item property is of an ashe of rt, if it is, then it dont attack directly the player, otherwise, if it is not, it attacks the player [note, if it is not an ashe, then it is a keg/gear/book], triggering the agroo;
Otherwise, if it's not grabbing an item, then it attacks normally.

its a poor exemple, but shows how can be done. the classes and functions and properties, as much as the complexity of the code is way bigger, and how they developed all of it with so many programmers, they can fix it for sure.
And yes, i'm pretty sure they can exclude only the ashes agroo. as i showed an exemple.

i hope everyone can understand the way i typped, and like on other post, sorry for errors and lack of proper phases / sentences construction. i'm not fluent on english, so i try every time i write =)

Yeah they'd also need to define the Rt.ashes.property variable so that the above function would know what Rt ashes are. That might be the tough part, depending on how modifiable their system variables are.

GW is just a .c MUD, right? hehehe.

Nope, you understand me correctly. But since ANet isn't against farming, and neither am I, nobody is offering that as a proposal to make the game better, so you pretty much decided to point that out for no reason.

Hey, I'm right there with you. I love the PvE updates we get, and I always try to do new quests and such. Again, I never proposed that we stop getting new quests, so I don't know why you mentioned a paragraph about it. Regardless, let me reiterate: I enjoy quests and exploring new areas too.

You know, I have this lovely little RPG for my Gamecube, called Tales of Symphonia. I played it, and I beat the game. I loved it so much I did it a second time. After the second time beating it, did I write to the developers complaining that there was nothing to do after beating the game? Nope. I moved on. Whether you choose to see it this way or not, players who complete Guild Wars are faced with the same option. Just because you have no other games to play, does not mean that changing Guild Wars prevents you from playing. In fact, everybody who plays Guild Wars plays with the express understanding that game content is subject to change. If players cannot handle a changing environment, they have no business playing a game that functions online only. People will complain, of course, it's their nature, but that's their problem. ANet is not committing a crime by updating the AI, you are not entitled a refund because playing through the game the 7th time was less enjoyable than the 4th, and ANet does not owe you an apology if you log in and suddenly have to start using brain cells to "farm."

Understand, so far?


Now, let me be more specific. I never proposed making farming impossible. I never proposed ANet doing everything in their power to discourage farming. I do propose an AI update so that the book/gear exploit is no longer prominent. Does that nerf farming? Absolutely not. As stated above, you'll just have to start using brain cells, something you're clearly not keen on doing.

So, how again, is that our problem when you're the one refusing change and adaption? Why should those of us expecting better quality AI suffer because you prefer being able to do it in your sleep? I'm sorry, but the good of the game outweighs making you giddy since 20 creatures all mob you at once and can't kill you. Your satisfaction in that particular situation does not take a higher priority than improving vast portions of the game. And the AI is a vast portion, as it even spreads into PvP. (Guild Lords, Heroes, Guild NPC's, Pets, Minions, etc.)

So MelechRic, why exactly are you so against making the game better, again?

Incorrect. I imply if "players" find the gear/book trick necessary to farm (such as you), then "players" definitely are not setting the bar very high in skill. I'm not claiming I am, but I'm also not the one crying "Please leave my exploit alone so I can be rich!!11."

Thank you for your permission allowing me to continue commenting on your logic.

I've been reading this topic, because I was concerned about the ashes=aggro effect.

While playing ritualist, I soon discovered that if I held ANY ashes/urn, I'd not only draw aggro from the current mob, but in all likelihood, from any other nearby mob. And yes, I know about aggro-bubbles and the like.

Now that this topic has become a topic regarding gear/book/keg farming, I'll no longer read it.

Please either close the thread, or go back to the topic at hand.

Thks, i'm trying too =/
hehe, well as u can see my last post, i'm pretty sure they can fix it with not much problems, think about the implementation of an entire area [like SF], or new Tombs, or even Factions [entire expansion], then we can agree that fix an issue with the ashes/agroo bug isnt as big as the major modifications i mentined .
I'm conserned about it, and at the same time, not that much because i think that way.
The real question is: they'll fix before or after the release ?

I've noticed that there were some pictures and stats on ritualist armor, and one of the sets gives you +10 armor while holding an item or whatever. This was on the guildwiki site when I was trying to look up the different looks of 15k armor.

+10 armor puts it at 70 AL while holding ashes. That in no way justifies the exploitable AI.

I wasn't really trying to justify it, I was just simply saying I noticed that these were the stats on a type of armor. I should of edited that.

Sorry, I didn't mean to say you were justifying it, personally. I meant my comment as a pre-emptive retort to the people who would reply "Why are you complaining about aggro, you get +10 AL!" 70 AL while tanking those lvl 28 Onis or something in UW? Yeah, that makes it all kinds of better, lol.

Sorry it seemed aimed at you directly, it wasn't.

/bow

I think a compromise is in order.

Remove the "womg, he hab no itamz!" AI flaw. Then add a magic lamp to the Crystal Desert merchants, which would cost 1 gold piece, that summons a NPC genie. When activated the genie awards the player 3 free green items of his or her choice.

There, everybody's happy.
Brain cells and MelechRics, rejoice!

I'm just kidding MelechRic, I think I know where you're coming from. You don't actually care about the farming itself anymore. It's become stale and repetitive. The reward is in the actual income which leads to new expensive high-end items. Removing the "trick" just delays such things, since it wouldn't really improve your enjoyment of the farming itself, all it's doing is making your time farming less efficient. Since you don't really see how this adversively effects anyone, you don't want it to be changed.

Okay, I am going to hijacking the thread for a moment for software engineering discussion...

I believe that you are discounting a few items in your code:
1. target choose is probably a method of the monster object
2. hold_item() is most likely a distributed property on the client (therefore might need to ensure that the environment is in sync prior to this)
3. not sure what language you are using, but if it's c++, you have some syntax issues
4. in terms of design, you have an mixture of direct member access vs. the usage of accessor methods, which is not a good idea

sorry -- bumped into my pet peeve...

A few points:

1. I have other games to play, but I still enjoy this one AS IT IS. I'm not filling these boards with threads whining about the current state of PvE.
2. I understand the game will evolve and develop over time. I'm fine with that and will adapt.
3. I believe that players who can't handle the current environment also have no business playing the game. It's a game and as such is bound by certain rules and contraints. If you dislike them then find another toy and play with it. (Your own advice)

I agree, people love to find things to complain about. The whole gear/barrel/book portion of this thread is a prime example. You don't have to search this forum to find a bunch of complaints about things ranging from green items, jerks, cutscene skipping, etc. It's a magnet for the chronically dissatisfied with PvE. There are a few voices in the wilderness who seem to actually enjoy the game as it stands.

Also, ANet doesn't owe you an apology if you log in and find me rich because I like to be part of a 5-man SF gear farming group. You can certainly try grumbling here, but you're not entitled to anything more. Nowhere on the GW box did it say: 100% CalamityKell Satisfaction Assured!

Still making assumptions about my brain cells? It does show a certain lack of imagination on your part to resort to that. At least you're not calling me a retard.

I can readily adapt to any change ArenaNet throws my way. The real problem I have with you and your ilk is that you require an unecessary change. You're free to play the game without the gear/book/barrel and have a grand old time. Instead you come to these forums to complain about people who won't do it the way you think is appropriate. I'd just like to point out to you, in case it hasn't occurred to you, that your satisfaction with the game is in no way paramount to mine. In fact your whole argument is ridiculous because your satisfaction is completely in your hands.

See my point above. I'm not against that. I'm against worthless bellyaching about something that is completely within the control of the individual gamer. I'm against people who don't like their toys and come to a public forum to grumble about them. Instead they should just buy new toys.

I never implied it was necessary. It's obviously easier. My whole point is that it doesn't ruin anyone's PvE experience. If you don't want to use the gear then fine by me. I'm happy to leave you alone. Do me the same favor if I choose to use the gear. I'm also not the one crying, "Please stop people from getting rich! It's bothering me!" I'm not going to laugh, dance a jig or whatever Ghull Ka is going to do if they change this. It's apparent that both of you just can't stand to see gear farming because you've both got your high-minded ideals about game play. Gear-farming assualts them so much that you have to rant about it in a public forum.

You're welcome, though I think you missed the point entirely.

Holy crap! You are 100% on the money here. I just want to be left in peace.

Thanks for boiling it down!

I have returned.

All right, I'll tell you what I hate about the gear/book trick. It's the greed mentality which has pervaded most of GW PvE. That "x is only worth doing if I can get y." x being any PvE area. y being some imaginary thing like pretend gold, exp, some doofy item.

I feel that ANet should strive to create a PvE experience that is fun of its own accord, not becuase you can milk a particular group of mobs for gold armors. I don't play Day of Defeat going "Damnit, Valve! Where the hell is my M-16! I've been grinding this game for months!" I play of Day of Defeat becuase it's fun. I think that GW PvE should strive to create the same thing.

The crux of the arguement in this thread is that there is two reasons why people play PvE.

There's:

A. Fun. Exploration, challenge.

B. Tangible Reward. Drops, gold, ectos.

Most people start at A, then gradually move towards B as they mature as a player, they get jaded and bored like Melech. The problem is however, that a great majority of the PvE population has moved towards B, leaving people who still value A unable to find groups to do Titan Quests, UW, Fissure, or SF without resorting to some farming build. These A people have been pretty much venting thier frustrations with this for the past 7 pages.

Mech brings up a good point, however. Why should ANet change the game at all to accomadate these "A" people when the majority of the people who play this game are "B"?

One big reason: Newbies. We need to bring more people into this game. They start out at A, they're impressed with the game, they want to explore things, try out the quests, see if thier build is any good. Then they get to SF. See "GLF gear tank", think "hey, I'm a tank, I'll join." They get to the Furnace. "Here, hold this". Newbie thinks, "Damn, GW has some boring high-end PvE". Newbie quits, never looks back. Heck, I almost did the same thing on my first character when I found it practically impossible to find a group that wanted to fight anywhere, everyone wanted to be run.

Seriously, try to convince a friend to play GW and talk about Gear-tanking. Pretty much universally the response you'll get is, "Um, that sounds pretty stupid."

I already know what Melech will say in response to the last line. Something like: "If they think it's stupid then they don't have to do it." Melech... You and me both know that isn't the reality of the situation. It takes ages to get or put together a group for anything in PvE that isn't farm. SF quests, a UW group that isn't smites or traps, Titan's quests so on and so forth. It normally takes a minimum of 20-30 minutes to put together such a group. It's entirely possible for such a group to fall apart before it even gets off the ground becuase people get impatient.

The thing is though, Anet can accomdate both styles of play. What should really be done is to make "A" and "B" one and the same. The most difficult and challenging areas should offer the greatest tangible reward. Then you satisfy both groups, it's easy to find a group to do what's fun becuase coincidentally that's what will make you the richest. If you want to acomplish this, then sorry, gear tanking needs to go.

I'm not sure who else I speak for, but I couldn't care less about imaginary bling-bling. What I resent is that I'm unable to find groups of people to say... see how deep they can make it into the UW, or do things like Ice King. The only consideration seems to be "What can make me the richest the fastest?".
That'd be fine with me personally if the answer to "What can make me the richest the fastest?" was something that was actually fun. Then I could join up get my kicks out of it, and they get thier kicks out of it. But it's not fun. It's Gear Tanking. Boring, Mind-numbing, stab-me-with-a-fork Gear Tanking.

I'm the Original Poster, and I wanted to discuss both. The main issue is that they are making an AI exploit only useable in certain areas a bigger part of the game instead of fixing the original exploit. So any discussion of the original exploit such as, "Is it even an exploit?" , "Should it be removed?", "Does it destroy the suspension of belief?" is still on-topic.

QuixotesGhost,

Thanks for the insightful reply. I agree with most of what you're saying too. I'm all for getting rich and having fun. Last weekend you wouldn't have found me in SF/UW/FoW/UW2 farming. I was out exploring Cantha with henchies/groups or PvP in the new 12v12 format. I was having fun.

In fact my farming has slowed a lot because I've gotten most of what I want and I am tired of the PvE content (even the gear/barrel/book farming part).

It's just puzzling that ArenaNet would devise something like FoW/UW armor and not think it would lead to farming. Honestly, those armors are extremely expensive and hard to obtain. People would be crazy not to try and find ways to speed up their acquisition of the needed materials. Greens are the same. If you got every green for finishing all the quests in SF then that would be different. However, ArenaNet saw fit to make their drops random. So players are forced to repeat the content over and over to get the ones they desire. Once again, it was only a matter of time before dedicated teams started to farm these items.

As an aside, I'm interested to know how many high-minded anti-gear/barrel/book farmers here are using greens that they bought from a farmer. I think the answer would be over 50%. I bet those that did buy from farmers were happy that almost all those greens sell for under 5k. (Sure a few are a lot more, but they are a lot more rare too.)

I also agree that new players are the lifeblood of any game. However, I don't think that changing old content like SF/UW/FoW will actually bring more in. The content is a year old and not likely to change. ArenaNet is going to get new players in with Factions and pull along the older players that are still playing. If something like the Urn holding W/Ri breaks that new content then there's likely to be a fix in the future. I'll take a wait and see attitude here. It may be that mobs will be different at final release or that the "bug" will be gone.

I realize I'm probably wildly unpopular with most people in this thread. I couldn't care less, but if you're ever interested in doing any PvE quest I'll be happy to join you.

Regards,

MelechRic

P.S. I really don't like playing a warrior so you won't ever see me on a W/Ri ash-tank in Factions.

The book trick needs to removed because it turns pve into a snoozefest.

Talk about a crutch...

Don't like to snooze? Don't use it. <--- Why is this so hard for people to comprehend?

Lots of replies have an abusal point of view. Now just consider a rpg point of view:

Do you think its normal someone runs around with someones ashes??? Of course everyone should attack such a creep!

I took my warrior into a PUG in the Fissure of Woe last night. We killed the Priest of Menzies. I chose not to use the book trick, because I don't like it. Instead of walking around for the rest of the game with the book, I turned the book in for the XP reward, as the quest was designed. Half of the group then called me a noob and ragequit the group.

If they do not fix Ritualist urns, the entire PvE experience will have the same problems. W/Rt tanks will be insisted upon by the general PUG population at large, and if you do not conform, you will encounter ragequits, ridicule, and the inability to find a group in the first place. Barring the availability/existance of guildies or friends, you will be forced to either play with a W/Rt tank or with henchies.

Not to mention the poor AL-60 ritualists, even with their super duper +10 AL while holding an object armor, getting shredded every time they conjure an urn for energy management.

This is a real problem that should be fixed prior to the release of GW:F. I just wish that, with all of the outcry about Ritualist urns, ANet would come forward with at least some acknowledgement of our concerns.

All you've proved is that you're in the minority in terms of playstyle and approach to PvE (and maybe Guild Wars in general). Your groups fell apart because you weren't up front with them about your intentions. You wasted people's time because they didn't know what they were getting into. That's why they quit. But I guess your phsychology/sociology experiement was a success if you define success as griefing 14 other people.

I do suggest you find like minded individuals and try playing your way. Otherwise it's like you going to a Raiders/Skins game and trying to get the Raiders fans to root for the Redskins. It ain't gonna happen and people will be pissed.

The game exists in it's current form because ANet know it appeals to the largest majority of its playerbase. That means real money for ANet in terms of units sold. If they piss off 2% of the playerbase then they probably don't care.

Why not? you are the minority in terms of PvE play. You can accept that, move on and get your group of people that play your way together. Or you can continue to view everything that violates your expectations as a negative and keep aggitating. It's your choice.

Let me get this straight, then:

I say that I'd rather swing my axe than stand around exploiting AI with an aggro-attracting book, some people in my team (that never mentioned the book until the Priest was dead) call me names and leave, and I'm the griefer? I'm the one that is wasting the time of others?

Right. Off to the ignore list with another troll.

well, as i said on the post, it was A SILLY exemple, just to illustrate.
yes, i known calling methods have a proper way to cast them.
yes, this check would be done by the monster when its function to attack would be called.
its more like c++, but the way it is, i would call it a hybrid code, merely to have an idea. its not a complete function, that was compiled and was running. for a complete code it would take hundreds of lines , and to explain that here, its not something i'm up to now.
its a pseudo-code. not a real implementation, ok?
But if u want, u can make one hehe takes to much time for that. ill pass.

Melech, answer me this:
Are you 100% against any fixing of the AI so that using ashes in circumstances other than tanking is viable, assuming it'll ruin the book/whatever trick as well?

Nope, you're a griefer because you went into the zone with full knowledge that you were not going to meet the party's expectations of you. You knew you were going to waste people's time to try and prove a point here on the forums. That makes you a griefer.

I'm a troll because I call you on it, and argue with you.

Go ahead and add me to your in-game/board ignore list if you have the room (which I doubt). If not, don't worry. I won't be bothering you.

Not at all, because in that case there may be an actual flaw with the way the Ritualist class works. However, I can't say for sure if this is really an issue. We've had what? A little over 48 hours to see how this Urn works in PvE. It's too damn early to tell.

If it breaks the other aggro holding? I won't be pleased, but at least it will be a valid reason instead of the argument that it's "brain dead/too easy/makes people get rich too quickly/not the way I think the game should be played."

Okay, so "fix at all costs" is fine. Good. Then we can move on. Might I suggest a separate thread for "Book trick or not"?

How wrong and misguided can you be? A griefer is not someone who plays the game like it is supposed to be played, thats called a real RPer. A griefer is someone who; rage quits, kills the team on purpose, etc... Him returning the book does no such thing, I have yet to see my party die when the book is returned.

Though please, if you are oh so wise, do inform me how HE griefed by playing the game without exploiting AI. I want to hear this.

I already explained what I believe his form of griefing was: he wasted people's time. Did you miss that?

Yes he wasted time... really now? I don't remember him saying that the group planned on using the book. So he wasted no ones time in simply completing a quest.

You cannot even justify that what he did was griefing by saying he wasted time, he didn't waste time, the idiots who left wasted time. I am quite sure the group could have gone on its own.

I read this before, I thought you'd be smart enough to realise that "wasting time" is not what HE did, and that if anything wasting time means bull. I waste time by going AFK does that make me a griefer for wasting time?

Theos, man... let it slide. He's picking fights however he can. Stick to the topic and the real important thing here, don't let that nonsense get to you.

And besides, I put him on ignore, but his text still shows if you quote him, *poke*

For those out there that are really concerned about this, keep your eyes out for Gaile to show up ingame next, get her attention, and bring this up. Be relentless (but polite) and make her realize that it is an issue. We have to get their attention if we want this to be changed.

I'm not going to debate the finer points of griefing with you. I just believe that going in with one intention while knowing full well it would piss other people off in the group is a form of griefing.

Any time a single individual goes on a mission/quest with a group for a different reason than what's implied there is potential for grief. Do you consider those people who go on missions to cap without announcing it and then leave to be griefers? I certainly do.

Hehe... Could easily make a W/Rt with Mighty Was Vorizon and life-saving stances to be an all purpose aggro-drawing tank for PvE.

Okay, this is getting a little out of hand now.

Assuming the AI flaw(bias name, I know) is universal. I don't think anyone could disagree it probably should be removed if only for the sake of those poor little stretch armstrong wanna-be's.


ps.
Ghull Ka, I'm sorry but I would consider what you did grieving. I don't farm and even I know 5 man SF teams generally intend to use the gear trick. I'm pretty sure you did, too. If you really thought your team wouldn't mind you'd have told them before you set out or told them anyway, just to be sure. But you didn't...

But then, I guess I do have a loose definition of what grieving is. It's not about proper game etiquette, that varies from person to person. If you're intentionally upsetting people then IMO you're grieving.

An example would be someone who disapproved of running getting a run to Droknar's Forge and refusing to pay to "punish" the runner. Too busy being self-righteous to care about the people they're playing with, I guess.

*hangs head in reflected shame*

Eh, there's a bit of a problem with that. If you expect to get a PUG for SF, you need to be ok with holding a book. Sure, you *can* get a full 8-man party sometimes, and there is the occasion when they won't use the book. But do you know how often a party like that comes along?

You can't say AI abuse like this dosn't hurt people if they don't use it.

In Diablo 2, Dupes and hacked items were considered acceptable by the majority of the general public. That didn't make them right.

Oh, for the record, MelechRic, were you for or against the nerfing of Griffion farming, of UW-Soloing, or of the AoE nerf? I feel the AoE nerf in particular parallels the current discussion rather nicely.