Holy God am I angry - PvE and Ritualist ashes

You know, you shot yourself in the foot by giving all those possibilities for profesions. Try running something thats a bit outside the box, like curse/water. Or hell why not something old like N/W, those used to be popular. If you are really incapable of creating a new build out of the possible 375 skills you have... you have serious issues with creativity.

Seems like you finished Prophecies campaign to me. At a certain point you don't get the right to complain about lack of things to do... you know that right? No movie lasts forever, do you whine when a movie ends? Seriously I want to know.

You sir, have tunnel vision. How can something as mind numbing as gear tanking make the game fun? Are you one of those people who laugh and giggle at large numbers? UW2 is not an AI exploit, last I checked there was no AI explioting done by cramming so many things into a small corridor that nothing moved and became easy targets. Thats ingenuity. As for the book trick/gear trick, which applies to FoW and SF... now thats just AI exploiting there is no ingenuity as everyone has known about this since ever. Its just people being Inert as always, afraid of what change might bring. As for UW... what does that have to do with anything? Beyond SS AI exploitation there... oh right SS exploitation.

Boy I see alot of exploitation... hum...

People will always take advantage of anything that gives them control over a situation or some other game effect that skews the odds in their favor. This is human nature. Protecting your rights concerning using these loopholes is also human nature, as is decrying the exploitation of these loopholes by others. An objective outlook is what is really useful in these instances, rather than a subjective or personal outlook.


There are many places in the game where people can take advantage of a game mechanic in order to give themselves better odds at success... and there will always be such places. It would probably be best to remove this particular game mechanic, however, because it severely cripples an entire character profession. This is obviously not intentionally designed into the game, and many of the game developers were also surprised at the results that were produced. All I can say is that this particular effect will probably be going into revision soon, and we can expect some changes for the better at some point in the future.

Eudas:

One thing you should note when you tell me to try another game is that you're the one (among others) that's complaining about the game's mechanics. I've said that the mechanics actually give me immense enjoyment and provide some longevity of play for me. I think you're arguing in the opposite direction so maybe you should try some other game.

Theos:

I'm not incapable of creating a new build. I can run anything you want me to in PvP and play it very competitively. I don't see how I shot myself in the foot by asking for him to give me a build he thinks is suitable for my enjoyment. Since he's acting like the PvE build police then he should at least give a list of approved builds for PvE. Your comment makes no sense or at least entirely misses the context of my argument.

Also, I'm not the one who's whining in this thread. I actually think the game is fine with the gear/book/barrel tactic. I've stated that I don't think urns should hold aggro (even though I think it's premature to call for changes before the Factions campaign is released). I'd like to congratulate you on your nice attempt to paint me as a whining person. You make up some story about me whining at the end of a movie and then attribute it to me. Another indirect form of attack and a logical error too. Keep up the good work.

Funny, I don't recall saying gear tanking was fun. I simply stated that farming has allowed me to buy a lot of gear and that has made the game more enjoyable. You've made a logical leap and put words in my mouth. Tsk tsk.

As for your analysis of UW2 AI. You are wrong. It is an AI exploit to crowd monsters into a hallway and blow the hell out of them with barrage. If the AI were on the level of human intelligence then the monsters would avoid fighting in that area. The fact that the AI fails to realize this and that players use it to their advantage should make it an exploit under your definition. How is this different:

1. Hold gear and AI only attacks the weak/unamred player.
2. Draw aggro with runner/puller and get AI to cram into a hall way where minions block it. AI fails to see the danger.

Your definiition is too broad to be at all useful in an argument.

MelechRic:

You enjoy the game's mechanics because it makes it easy as hell for you and requires little effort. If the gear/book trick didn't exist, would you be complaining? Probably not. But it does, and it means you don't have to actually THINK, so you enjoy it.

Also, you are complaining about how "I beat the game, and there's nothing left to do." This isn't a traditional MMO, once you beat the game, it's time to move on to another game, or play the competitive multiplayer. It's your fault for playing the game so much that you got bored. Making it easier for you so you can be half asleep while farming does not add to the fun of the game. It makes it easier. Since that seems to be the aspect of it you TRULY enjoy, I say please go elsewhere. God knows what else you'd like in Guild Wars to be made EASIER.

I enjoy the game very much thanks. I also played the entire game through as a ranger and monk without doing any farming. I've experienced difficult missions in this game and enjoyed them immensely. Now I've got a farmer and I _still_ enjoy the game.

You are free to play it in whatever manner makes it most difficult if that's what you enjoy. I recommend that you do this since it seems to be your goal.

It's funny that you try and characterize me as someone who enjoys doing mindless things. I don't at all. I'm an engineer so I'm paid to think about difficult problems and provide mutliple solutions to them. I play Guildwars for entertainment and I do derive enjoyment out of PvE and PvP aspects of the game. I don't farm to the exclusion of all other things. In fact this weekend I split my time 50/50 between PvE and PvP in the Factions preview.

It's not my fault for playing the PvE so much that I got bored. The game has been out a full year. I've brought three characters through it all and now I've found something else to do. You are the one with the problem. You can't stand to see something in a game that violates your high minded ideal of what the game _should be_ so you aggitate for a change. I'd say it's time for you to move on if you're so dissatisfied.

Ow really really funny what u said : so if u too dislike the fix on holding item bug, then u too can go somewhere else. And the point here is the fact that EVERY area on game will be as SF for gear trick. I just ask u to THINK. its not hard to figure. I do farm uw with my 55 or my SS, so what ? not in question here.

U say about others not making a good point to defend the fix / exploit, but u too havent prove fairly what ure telling all times.
Ow and yes, theres more than farming left. my necro for example is almost getting all skills in game, but ill need more time when factions comes, for lots of more skills. xp gaining not exactly farming, since i can get xp for missions / farm / quests etc.
And as for low level characters, hmm no. mine arent low level.
and i still got things to do in pve.

think for example, if MM skills like animate bone horror or fiend skills triggers te mobs on u. tell me, how would u play as MM ? Or even SS triggered. explanation from mobs : "minions are too dangerous lets kill necro to prevent, at all costs" . u wouldnt fell thats unfair ? that it was not right ?
Thats what happening to rt.
lack of mob ai is visible now.
If this dont make u think about it, then I'm really sorry for u.

ome more thing: u defend so much gear trick, why? just that makes u farm more fast ?

This is a good example for dumb AI for book: on fow , in the spider cave, in the waterfall, it spawns more than 20 spider, adn guess what? all of then attacks the brilliant tank book holder. explain me the gameplay here.
It is "heal tank"+"heal tank"+"heal tank"+"heal tank", resumes to that ?
i want to read ur answer.
imagine a rt there that uses the -% cost urn or the +energy one.
owned really fast.
U would ignore an entire line of skills of ur favorite class and be fine with that, because it agroo everything to u and u normally die when that happens ?
As for everyone, just because it has little impact on pvp, u can ignore the bug on pve? really really funny to say that.

Cramming the hallways with bodies is like body blocking, last I checked a very viable tactic. If they were to make the AI that smart (by which I mean able to pull back and spread the blockade thin) PvE would begin to own half the playerbase in it. I doubt anyone wants this, and last I checked those little ghouls do get through the blockade at which point OTHER skills are used to make them less effective. I see no AI exploitation, I see strategy. Its also far more variable and planning dependant than gear tanks.

Sorafolktale, if you could translate your post into English I'll try and make a response. Paragraphs and complete sentences would be nice too.

Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to

I like watching you do circles with your logic. Aren't you with the crowd that's agitating for an AI fix to provide more challenge? If so then you wouldn't have a problem with the AI "owning" half the playerbase. Or is there another agenda you have? Maybe a farming nerf because you don't like people making money hand over fist?

I keep coming back to this thread to see other people's responses to the "Urn Situation", trying to gauge the outcry, and keep the torches lit for the whole debacle. All I'm seeing now are people arguing with MelechRic.

I know that the only real voice that I have is to email ANet support and perhaps address this issue as a bug. Maybe if I can open a dialogue with one of the developers, this issue will get some attention. Online petitions don't get anything done, and arguing about whether or not MelechRic should quit GW (and watching him do the "debate team" thing with everyone who addresses him) doesn't get anything done.

Two things sum up the whole issue:

I don't want my 60-AL Ritualist to be targeted by EVERY mob nearby, to the complete exclusion of all other potential targets these mobs may have, and then summarily massacred every time she conjures ashes.

I don't want the entire PvE experience to degrade to 5 man Ash Tank farming in every wilderness area and mission.

That's not too much to ask, I don't think.

Circle? I see no circles? AI owning half the playerbase would be counter productive in all respects. I for one enjoy playing with other people. My agenda is to remove brain dead exploitation from the game, nothing more. I would like challenge in PvE but I also do not want to remove half the people playing.

I don't care about farming, legitimate brain requiring farming that is. Kegs and 55 monks and even some WaMo builds require so little cognitive function that a monkey could do it by simply smashing buttons. This is what I don't want. Something wrong with it?

Really ? Then i say "Sorry for my mistakes".
yes, my english inst so good.Its not my primary language, but im pretty sure most ppl can read and understand what i posted. if not, tell me.
Again, sorry for spelling errors, or incomplete sentences.
But this doesn't means that u can say it like that. [about translate into english]
If u can understand this, then it proves that im not that dump writting in english

Peço desculpas se não fui claro o suficiente. =)

I don't care about farming, legitimate brain requiring farming that is. Kegs and 55 monks and even some WaMo builds require so little cognitive function that a monkey could do it by simply smashing buttons. This is what I don't want. Something wrong with it?[/QUOTE]

55 monks arnt that easy to farm with. try things that interupt you knock you down. If it was so easy then everyone would do it. And just how many really good 55 monks are there? Most just farm griffions and minos and then rezone, Try clearing talus, (except for the mobs with mesmers)with a button smashing monkey. EDIT: allso i have to say i agree with the necro about everything (except dudes english skills) right on, and farm away

Everyone has their little 55hp farming build they don't want to see nerfed. Even you. Tell you what. I'll give up my gear farming if ANet makes it so that spells work on what your maximum HP would be WITHOUT any superior runes applied. Deal?

Yes. You want your ideal to be my ideal. I don't like that and won't accept it. You're free to play however you want and should afford others the same respect. Otherwise you're just acting like a tyrant.

Oh, that's a really funny thing you said: If you don't like the fix on the "item holding" bug, you can go somewhere else too. The point here is that EVERY area of the game will be farmable with the "SF Gear Trick". I'm just asking you to THINK... it's not hard to figure out. I also farm UW with my 55 monk or SS nec, so what?? That's not the issue here.

You say that others are not making valid points about how to defend or fix the exploit, but you haven't fairly proved your own points either. Oh, and yes, there's more than just farming left. My necro, for example, is close to getting all the skills in the game, but I'll need more time when Factions comes, for the additional skills. Experience gain is not the same as item farming, since you can gain experience from missions/quests and item farming. As for low level characters... I have none, but I still have things to do in PvE.

Think about this, for example: If Minion Master skills like Animate Bone Horror/Fiends triggered the monsters to attack you to the exclusion of all else, how would you play that type of character? Or if Spiteful Spirit triggered such an attack? A simple explaination would be that the monsters would feel that your character is far too dangerous to them, so let's kill you first at all costs. Would you not feel that it is unfair? Would you not feel that it just isn't right? This is what's happenning to the Ritualist class. The lack of a seriously programmed monster AI is very visible now. If this doesn't make you think about it, then I feel sorry for you.

One more thing: You defend the gear trick a lot ... why? Because you farm faster with it?

This is a good example for the dumb monster AI on the Book in FoW: In the waterfall of the spider cave, more than 20 spiders spawn. Guess what? They all attack the brillian tank who is also the book holder. Can you explain the "gameplay" here? It's just "heal tank + heal tank + heal tank + heal tank". Can you reply to this and tell me what makes it so interesting? I would like to see your answer.

Imagine a Ritualist there, using the -% energy cost urn or the + energy per cast urn ... He would be owned in seconds.

You seem to want to ignore an entire line of skills in your favorite class, because it aggros everything in sight and you die within seconds. As for everybody else ... Just because it has little impact on PvP, you can ignore that kind of thing in PvE ?? How very funny of you to say that...


Ok ... it's translated .. I agree with some of his/her sentiments and arguements, and I am also patiently waiting for your reply. It does not take much effort to get the gist of what someone is saying, even if it is in broken english or not phrased properly. Try not to put down an intelligent person just because they dont speak your language. The GuildWars game is based in an international setting, so expecting everybody to speak/read/write everything fluently in say ... Han`Gul (Korean), for example, is quite rediculous. Have a care for the feelings and knowledge of others, and try to show some understanding once in a while. Who knows? You might even make more friends that way...

Heck no, i allso gear tank with my warrior and enjoy that to, its lots less boring then trying to get a group with a tank anywhere else, plus the thrill of finding greens

I guess I'll debate you a bit. As a statement of fact I do think that if the Urn makes the ritualist draw aggro AND that makes the class unplayable then there's room for a modification in the game mechanics. However, I think it's way too early to tell if this is true. Nobody aside from alpha/beta testers has had enough road time with this class to know if it's a true problem. 48 hours of play simply isn't enough time to know.

Lastly, why will the PvE experience be degraded for you by Ash Tank farming? Nobody can answer this question in this entire thread with any clarity. You're free to party with people who feel like you and don't want an ash tank. Your experience isn't ruined by that is it? If I want to run around with a bunch of ash tank people and have fun how is that messing with you?

One last thing... there will always be optimized farming groups in any game. It's basically about 20 developers against 1 million players. The odds are with the playerbase that people will figure out builds that defeat the simple monster AI the developers created.

They Removed chests from Dreadnought’s Drift and Ice Floe.
To farm those you need to known how to play a good 55 monk build to get there. i've done that run a lot of times; and i can say: 55 monk build inst a brainless one, for mostly places.
And i'm pissed they removed those chests. Now where can a pve player get the rare skin itens, like cristalllyne sword ?


And if spells worked for max hp resgardless of runes, you would mess the elite skill Aura of the Lich [Necromancer one], dont you ? for exemple: if ure with a 55hp build and cast Aura of The Lich, then you would go to 265hp instead of 27hp ? Its not correct.
And would f*** the skills with sacrifice cost.
Yeah, that would mess a lots of necro skills.

edit: and thanks skie_m for translation. yes,sometimes i write bad sentences, but it's interesting because that's the way we type in-game.
I was just not paying attention too [besides my own mistakes].
I'll write more properly from now on.

And a correction :
U would ignore an entire line of skills of ur favorite class and be fine with that, because it agroo everything to u and u normally die when that happens ?

I intented to say this:
Could you ignore an entire line of your favorite class, and still be fine without those missing skills, because they trigger the agroo of every mob in sight to you, and you would normally die as a result of that agroo ?

My opinions are my own, they are not up for debate.

i did notice the aggro was out of order in cantha, I only played a warrior, allthou i did try w/a w/r w/mo...but mobs would agroo and patrol in strange ways. On a differnt subject, If the mobs didnt agroo on the item holders, then some quests would be easy, and repeatable. like the one in ferndale

If they don't fix the exploit, W/Rt ash-tanks will be much, much better than any other warrior build. Lack of balance and variety is bad for the game. And it won't even be a fun build to play. Most people, when they select "Warrior" on the character creation screen, will probably be wanting to swing a weapon once in a while.

And there will be all sorts of arguments where ash-tanks will be accused of being unoriginal and cookie cutter, and non ash-tank warriors will be criticized for running weak builds. I don't see any upside.

I never said go somewhere else. I only said that in terms of gear/barrel holding that shouldn't be a problem for so many people. If you don't want to play the game that way then don't, but stop petitioning for a change.


Proof: I enjoy the game by farming. I harm nobody by farming. I get stuff and sell it in a highly competitive free market. I have things to do in PvE as well. I help guildmates, farm and go on new quests when they are available. I also devote time to PvP so I stay fresh.

I'm taking a wait and see attitude, but I do think that if there is truly a problem with urns and unwanted aggro then it should be remedied.

Yes that's exactly why I'm defending it, but also because there is no point in removing it from the game. It in no way detracts from the play of other people.

I don't argue that it's interesting. I'm saying it's effective and I can make platinum doing it. That platinum finances my other aspects of playing this game and that's what I enjoy. You need to make that distinction.

Once again, I'm not arguing about the urn. If there's a real problem then let's get it fixed, but at least I need more time to see if an issue really exists.

Thanks for the translation. Sorry, but I don't want to take the time to translate stuff like that. At a minimum I expect a person to be able to convey his/her points clearly. (Maybe that's asking too much.) I realize that English may be a second language for some people but the burden is on them to be clear if they choose to post in a forum where English is the primary language. Just my bias.

Also, please don't imply that I can't or don't make friends. I've got a fair amount of them regardless of your impression of me.

Why express in a public forum? Once you do that then they leave the cave and enter the light.

One last thing:

If people really want to see less farming by human beings (not talking about bots) then what ANet needs to do is add more PvE content. Or at least make it far more rich.

I'd happily do any new quests with non-cookie-cutter builds if there only were some new quests. (Yes, I've done the Kurzick/Luxon stuff.) Farming is the end-game PvE in this game plain and simple. The PvE in Guild Wars is there as a tutorial on the professions and how to become proficient at using your skills. Then you do PvP and devote some time to farming for better gear.

agree

I liked your first witty retort better. But since you changed it to this one, I'll go with what I have. Shame on me for feeding a troll further.
Because I choose to.If I'm seeking enlightnement, I'll meditate. I do not seek enlightenment via online forums. That would be pretty silly.

If I want to discuss being super pissed about the effects Ritualist ashes have in PvE, I'll seek out a topic with a title like "Holy God am I Pissed - PvE and Ritualist ashes".

If I want to discuss the pros and cons of farming, the stigma attached to cookie cutter farming, and the lack of PvE content that leads to farming, I'll go seek out a topic with an appropriate title. I'd encourage you do the same, rather than hijacking this one any further.

As it is, I'm super pissed about the effects Ritualist ashes have in PvE. I hope that ANet changes it, as soon as possible, before the release. 60 AL casters were not designed to be aggro magnet tanks, I don't believe that the ashes skills deserve such a harsh counterbalancing effect attached to them, and PvE in general will suffer greatly from the PUG-forced/Laziness-driven/Opportunistic prevalence of W/Ri ash tanks, as SpeedyKQ noted above.

Them's my opinions on the subject. Still not up for debate.

Name calling? A bit shameful but you are expressing your opinions. I'll grant you that.

The only reason I'm a troll in your opinion is because I won't back down from your argument (made in the GWO article) that it's somehow harmful for PvE to have aggro holding items. (I'm not talking about the ritualist urn portion of your argument here.) I disagree with you and all the other people that complain about this. My reasons are selfish for sure, but they don't hurt you or your game play at all. I wonder if I had defended your point with equal vehemence if I would be a "troll" in your eyes. I guess I should confine my self to single posts say "yes I agree" and leave it at that. (No chance of that really so don't get your hopes up.)

With regards to the other part of your argument: namely and 75% useful ritualist class. I'm taking a wait and see attitude as I've said previously.

You misunderstood me. I don't care about your enlightenment. I was just pointing out that when you put ideas in a public forum expect a response. If you decide to ingore the response that's your choice.

Then why did you post the non-relevant portion of your GWO post about gear tanking? You've seemingly contradicted yourself.

See my above comment. You seem to have started the hijack or at the very least contributed to its start.

Maybe you need a break? If the game gets you that "super-pissed" it might be a life balance issue. Especially over a game that has such a small amount of PvE content and is mostly about PvP.

Good for you. By posting again you sort of do put them up for debate. Just FYI.

i noticed this quite readily this weekend. my friend and I both had rituallists, and we were killing stuff out on the luxon side in the channel, and he had 60 dp in no time becasue all the monstors chased him around when he used ashes, and we had a healer hench who did not understand the concept of someone being focus fired. it was terribly obvious the monstors were focusing on him. i do really hope they fix this, as i have no problem with the book trick, you can still play the area normally if you chose by turning in the book...same with the gears...the ashes are a skill...enegy managment, damage, and other such things for the rit. they are hindered if they get swamped by AI by using their ashes. it would be like a monk getting beat on by a mob becasue they used mantra of recall or offering of blood. thats just my two cents.

me too same thing it some times did and sometimes didnt grab aggro all the time, not as much as the gear keg etc does.

Something I notices, the "spirts" the rit can summon are chained to a certain loctaion. That bottle may be there so you can draw monster to the area where your spirts can affect them.

From what I played w/ that bottle I did not get mass aggro on me from what I could tell.

I never said that you can't or don't make friends. I only said that you might make MORE friends. Very big distinction...

Melechric you unbelievable retard.

Why will 5 man W/Ri teams ruin my pve exprience? Well let me give you an example. I wanted to do the sorrow furnace quests recently with one of my characters. But the only groups available are 5 man farm groups. Moreover; 2 monks, an ss, an mm, and a stance tank are the only "accepted" builds for 99% of said groups. Because 5 man gear farming is the "optimal" way to play, its hard to find ppl willing to play in a more challenging and, imho, more fun way. I joined the bandwagon and farmed with them just because I wanted to play - even though it was pathetically easy. Even when I could find a questing group, we still used the gear trick (yawn). And why wouldnt we use it, it would be stupid not to right? Too bad we had that option.

Now thats all well and good for limited areas I suppose, but to have the item trick be used in EVERY pve area would deplete the player base in two ways:

First, ppl who might otherewise enjoy more convnetional play will go the w/ri group route, because it is soooo much easier after all.

Second, ppl like me that think pve is a bit too easy anyway, and have nothing but contempt for the item trick, will leave pve altogether.

It is this depletion of the player base which affects the game for anyone who wants the least bit of challenge in their pve.

If you are so bad at pve that you can't enjoy the game without this exploit, I feel very sorry for you. There is nothing wrong with farming, in fact some of my favorite builds were ones I used to come up with to solo farm with my ele. But a universal ash trick makes not only farming but the entire pve experience brainless and boring.

If you cannot express your thoughts in an objective or subjective fashion without resorting to personal attacks, then you will most assuredly not be taken seriously. Please cease and desist.

Name calling... the mark of immaturity. Attack my argument and not me please. I'll ignore the rest of your post until you either apologize/retract or just give up.

Point taken Skie_M. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

As a footnote I'd like to mention that I have actually added quite a few farming friends just by being a competent farming player. I've got a good list of people from PvE and PvP now that I really enjoy playing with.

MelechRic is correct ... Once you put your opinion out in public, you are inviting people to agree or disagree with your sentiments. This is not neccessarily a bad thing, as it can sometimes force one to re-evaluate themselves or their beliefs for the better. This is a subjective change, not an objective one, because you begin from a subjective view and either keep that view or change to accommodate the views of others. You cannot ever objectively insert your opinions. Only facts are objective.

after reading this post, and being a stance tank for FoW/SF.. I think that they should do something about the AI.. but not to just ignore the person holding the ashes/keg/gear. But increase the chance of the AI to attack Warriors.

To me as a W/Mo, I personally believe that the AI SHOULD have a better chance at attacking the Warrior.. The Warriors only chance at getting into groups for ToPK, SF, FoW is TO get attacked and tank so everyone can be safe.. but with how the AI is in this game is, it completly ignores the warriors and goes for the Monks first, then Eley's, Necros, etc.. usually in my farm groups i'm LAST person standing because of this. Any warrior can agree with me, and yes i do know how to pull properly.

The Warriors are there to take the damage, thats why we got high defense armor.

And the reason they're all farming is because they have finished all the quests or have no desire to do them in the first place. If they couldn't farm SF, they wouldn't be doing the quests. They would just be farming elsewhere.

However, I agree that if ANY area could be item tanked, it would ruin the game for a lot of people.

1. Adding more content does not squash farming. In fact, it brings more areas to be farmed. Your logic is amusing, though.

2. Removing the gear/book trick won't nerf farming. You'll just have to actually become a better player. Can't have that, now can we?