Whats so bad about farming?

I spent 10 minutes writing that post.. I'm not sure I understood it either.

I rest my case though. Farming can NOT be compared to Golf Proves mah point lol.

(And yes actually I like playing golf. My dad used to take me to the driving range when I was little and had my own small club hand made. Haven't been in a while but I wouldn't say no )


And in responce to Dax:
Who says Tiger Practices more than any other golfer..?

lol, that's cool. And yes, the original comparison was not a good one itself.

... I know how to play golf. I know what a birdie is. That part in the post is the... "Oh but by the way.. in the REAL world you control whether you get a birdie.. in this comparison, you don't"

It was all to emphasise that nothing you do in farming short of repeating it, guarentees drops. Whereas in golf, winning the PGA is ALL in your control. I hope this finally explains by obvious big balls up of my post.

I think I just did, or am I wrong to think that to get where he is Tiger practiced less than the 'casual' (I guess I have to get specific) golfer.

...but please don't answer I don't think this thread should go anymore off topic. Let's just say you disagree with me

Okay the references to Tiger ALONE are off topic.. but the rest aint. And.. if Tiger has natural ability what's to say he practises the same as other golfers.. or maybe even less than one or two.

I didna nooo you wos Tiger's stalker May I have his autograph if you can get it? Oh and er.. some of his underpants?

P.s. I disagree

Fair enough, and umm thanks for thinking I was a stalker.... I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean, but for some reason that doesn't surprise me.

Its difficult to compress Guild Wars into rock paper scissors without writing an entire essay for explanation. Perhaps to refine this we could say Rock + 10% efficiency, were 10% efficiency = 1. Runes typically won't effect which skills are in someones tool bar, so I would think that the advantage given in this analogy would be the same as added skill. But either way you look at it, if granite > rock and granite > scissors but granite < paper, you have the same concept. This concept is that runes are a necassary addition to a highly competitive team.

That was a very good description of the 'situation'.

Hell, if it's such a bad thing for the economy, I'd kill for an instanced area where I could find loot for points or something and exchange those points for whatever.

I just like item-finding.

I WANT TO ITEM-FIND. ;-;

soo basically , those who spend more time adding to the ACTIVE content of the game, (in Many Forms) shouldnt get the slightest bit of advantage over som1 who sits down for 5mins & wants to have everything that they do..

if this is how gw is heading (so as to be nothing more then a playstation game) then im a bit disapointed.

this is the same attitude as you come across in other games where some just want everyone to have a +0 pool noodle or unlimited access to all "cheatcodes"/max items at there first sitting. which mind you you dont even get in console games as you have to play 10-40odd hours to clock it & open the best items & maps.. & id have to wonder just what the Guild ladder would MEAN without any competition or Competitive players, also i wonder if its "skill" some of you are boasting of or "luck" of using the right skills at right time if you ask me , i havent been to HoH yet but i bet its a whole new game, from what ive seen , ppl create & delete 10+ chars daily just to compete in the battles at drokners , i can only imagine the competiveness at HoH but if all "max items" are the same stats & all "players" can "farm" a bit to get those stats then perhaps like trading, questing & battling , Farming is a part of Guild Wars "the Game", Also.
ex: ppl miss out on skills not doing the quests & miss out on items running past monsters instead killing them & miss out on storyline by skipping cinematix, as they also miss out on the capped arenas & lessons learnt in them.. hmmmmm

to each thier own right?

my 2.3yen

Shoot, I'm certainly not going to argue it. I'm sorry you farmers are going to have to move around occassionally to farm.

I know that everyone plays the game differently. It's absolutely foreign to me how anyone can enjoy that kind of thing.

At least in a game with a wide range of items I could understand if the only way you could get something you wanted was to farm but here that's not the case. I'd be surprised if it's faster to farm and buy than it would be to just finish the whole game and get the items on your own.

I can see why and also agree that the game devs are against farming. They want to be unique...different from all other online rpgs currently out. Anyway, the players who are against farming are either

a) into competitive pvp but get whooped by people with slightly better items (I have yet to see a highly ranked guild that does not farm often)
b) just casual gamers

Therefore, the people against farming are getting angry of the advantage farmers have in pvp. If they want to stay competitive, they're reduced to farming eventually.

If thats the case, then they should have made this game like any FPS where everyone has access to same weapons and skills. Anytime a game introduces extra items, unlockables, or upgrades there will be people who will spend time to get them. I don't care if they are random or incredibly hard to get...there will be someone who will take the time and find a way even if they spend months doing it. Also if a game has some sort of trade system, you bet there will be gatherers who will be stockpiling items to sell.

If they nerf farming everyone will still complain that people who reaped the benefits of getting all these cool items are too powerful..either way.

I think the idea repeated doing the same thing over and over again is annoying. The inclusion of some kind of random quest generator would be nice if it included a random yet pre-stated objective/reward. The people for and against farming of items are going to always be at odds but once you give them something else to do the idea of straight farming maybe wont be so practical as it may seem.

Some one follow on from this?

THANK YOU.

CtrlAltDel hit the nail on the head here. What I just quoted is the most succinct explanation of why farming is actually bad for the economy.

Also, everyone needs to read one of Akshara's previous posts:

The inflation was guaranteed to hit because of the powergamers/powergrinders. The changes we're seeing only three months after launch were guaranteed because of the powergamers/powergrinders. Anyone who supports farming--rather, powergrinding, because let's be honest here; farming is just a pretty word for powergrinding here--is not helping the situation.

The influx of gold itself, brought about by farming/powergrinding, into the player economy is what is screwing things up in-game, like what I have said in the past, like what CtrlAltDel has said here, like what Akshara has said here.

Those who say the change is breaking the game...that they're nerfing farming and it's basically making the gameplay unplayable...the changes are going to ultimately improve the game, because with the reduced drop rates (and I'm looking at a reduced gold drop rate in a future update), the changes are cutting inflation off at its source: powergrinding.

I'm seeing the same, repetitive arguments over and over, and so few of them are actually getting what's going on. lol

So, since those that are powergrinders and powerlevelers have already ammased a huge quantity of gold, unlocked all their runes, and have back-up top damage weapons for each day of the week, the casual farmer gets screwed.

That is the problem here. I am looking at the possibility that I will not be able to use a superior vigor in PvP. I cannot afford it, you want there to be less money and I have none, and it looks like I will not find a Superior Vigor, the way they keep cutting drops.

Now, there is a ever largening gap between the very rich and those trying to catch up, and cutting off the money supply will not help.

Cross-posting this.

. I'm doing Thunderhead Keep for the third time right now. It's the third time because my party has failed to think with its head as opposed to its sword.

So, the third time.

The drops, in short, suck.

The majority are common (gold, collector's items, whites), an occasional blue, an even more occasional purple (two in three runs), and one gold.

That's for the entire party.

There's the error that my count might be off. After all, it's hard to catch every drop.

- edit-

To clarify, each failure has come at least after the clearing of the city, normally during the fight with Dagnar or whatever.

We're on the fourth round now, and I've made it my duty (and informed the part as well) to count blues.

Four so far.

No purples.

No gold.

Everything else common.

Sorry to say CrtlAltDlt idea of game getting out of whack because of powergrinding like D2 is way off. If anyone has played D2 they know D2 was screwed up not because of people Mf'ing, it was because of the dupes, bots, and hacks that were created and allowed. People were duping and bot'ing so much that items were always being found/created rather than dropping once in awhile. This is what messed up the economy. I am an avid farmer, I don't do it 24/7 but somedays depending on how much time I have I'd like to farm, other days I'd PvP or help friends. There is a huge difference between this game and D2's screwed up economy because of losers in the game and losers at blizzard.

Nerfing farming drops so they are slightly less was a good idea, but making farming areas so they are non-existent or almost non-existent takes away from the average player. By average player I mean, that if you came to this game it was because it offered something all other games didn't. It offered you the chance to play and be competitive even if you only played 2-3 hours a day or so. So far weapons/armor only give a minimal advantage if any. It's really about teamwork and skill rather than just your items. The game appeal was not solely to PvP or PvE. The game appeal was to all types of players, that is why the game is/was soo big at release. However if they start changing things that turn away average players. You'll see numbers drop, and I highly doubt GW will survive with just the PvP players. I think Anet needs to reconsider some things and work on a better compromise rather than reducing drop rates further, lower gold drops, and making it impossible to farm.

I've finished the game on my main, and is at Ring of Fire on both my secondary and tertiary. I generally have done every single quest (except villainy) and every single mission on all of them, including many of the bonus missions. I'd say a total of 300 hours of gameplay and maybe 15 hours of farming. I can safely say that I've unlocked 3-4 times the superiors, majors, and minors, and made 10 times more money in those 15 hours of farming than I have through the 285 hours of going through the game.

/nod
I didn't check the amount of hours I've played the game, but I never leveled a character straight through to 20 right away. I leveled a Necro to 16 then switched to W/Mo (which eventually I took to 20), then I started a Monk and to her to 20 (and I still haven't gotten to ring of fire yet). Since I didn't rush right out to 20 to farm to unlock things insanely quick like many others, I haven't even had a chance to really start farming or even taken the time to try now (since all the nerf to farming recently). I figured I'd ride it out see where game is going before making a decision on what to do. However in the amount of time it's taken me to level a Necro to 16, Warrior 20, and Monk 20 I haven't unlocked 1, I repeat ONE freaking Superior rune through regular gameplay. Of course I could save up but in the time that it has taken me to get 2 characters to 20 and what I spent to get some runes, better weapon for warrior, armor, and few other things here and there I've accumulated about 25k gold that I have left over. What the hell can I buy with 25K? Certainly not a Sigil or a Superior Vigor. So if you think you can play story straight through and get everything you need, umm don't even try telling me you can.
Walk a mile in my shoes before you try claiming regular play through story can open up runes and certain items. Pffffff.

There's nothing wrong with farming, as long as I don't have to do it.

I'm no powergrinder, so my gold isn't nearing millions, either, I'm looking at the same problem as you are, Chev. We're in the same boat. There's this insanely huge hoop we have to jump through...and that's the point. Hear me out.

The current state of the GW economy is due to a few different factors, but the largest one by and by is gold accumulation. The rune traders are purely incidental, as are the weapons, the armor, etc. Everything is directly dependent on the amount of gold that players can accumulate.

And it is because of that gold that drops in such high amounts in the later areas in the game where we hear of most of the powergrinders farming that inevitably sends the economy into massive inflation. Those gamers set the price for everything. Why? Because they have the monies.

You can already see this price gouging, as it were. Rune traders were introduced just a few days ago, and already the price of a Minor Energy Storage Rune is at 6 platinum, I think. The reason for that is because the high-end players are the ones setting the price. The Vigor runes are selling for something like 15k, which certainly is an improvement over what was going on previously, but it's nowhere near appropriate, because you're still going to have the high-end powergrinders sending the market into grotesque fluctuations.

So how do you stop that? Selling things at higher prices isn't going to cut down on the amount of gold floating around, because higher prices merely treats a symptom of the problem (removing gold from the economy).

Instituting the rune traders isn't going to cut down on the amount of gold floating around, because they're merely treating a symptom of the problem (directly player-controlled prices).

Money sinks are a nice idea, for sure, and there have been a few really sweet suggestions (the stylist one is probably my favorite of the bunch), but what good are money sinks when there's still massive amounts of gold being generated, then flooding the economy, even with the money sinks in place?

If we really want to straight-up stop the price gouging, we need to cut off the gold at its source:

The high-end powergrinding/farming locations.

That's where this is all coming from, because unless one plays a few hundred hours in the Ascalon City area, you're simply not going to see those kinds of amounts of gold until close to end-game, agreed?

So the solution to the price gouging, rune gouging, etc., is merely cut down on the high-end gold drops, which sounds like it's being worked in.

You'd still have the low-end gold drops, which is more than enough to buy the incidental items (salvage kits, IDs, and so on), and if push comes to shove, the rune traders will need a major overhaul...

It might go like this:

First tier runes (Minors) at traders in the first third of the game.

Second tier runes (Majors) and first tiers at traders in the middle third of the game.

Third tier runes (Superiors), second, and first tiers at traders in the final third of the game.

This would be done in conjunction with the so-called "gold revamp" of the high-end areas, and of course, the prices of the runes in their respective traders would be priced accordingly, as well.

Now, granted this idea isn't completely secure; there are still potential loopholes in there, like more advanced players (levels 16-20) buying Superior runes in say, Underworld, then traveling to AC and distributing them to low-level guildies.

Simple fix for this would be to set rune requirements, similar to weapon level requirements on swords and such. I'm not suggesting that a Major Energy Storage require 9 Energy Storage, though. What I'm suggesting is that Major Energy Storage require a character level of 8 or so to be able to fully benefit...or really, benefit at all. lol

So...yeah. Not sure if I replied with anything substantial (or anything related to your point), but I hope I said something intelligent.

Cutting down on the overall amount of rares introduced into the game will just cause their prices to go up higher, because since they're rarer, people will be willing to offer far more. In comparision, their price might not go up that much, but when people have far less gold, they'd be even more difficult to get for many but the richest. If you want to drop the price down, just have more money sink and MORE rare drops, that'd cause Superior vigors and Absorbtions to go down.

I see you point, that the money supply needs to be cut off to curb inflation. However, that is only a bandaid. If that were to be effectively done, the money in the hands of the the rich would need to be removed from them.

Why, you ask? Why would they sell a top damage sword, if they could only get 1K from it when they have 100's of Ks. It is not worth their time, and if they cut off money I will not be able to make it worth thier time.

Also, if this were done, the prices of the runes would need to drop substancially. As is, I will not be able to afford a Superior Vigor untill I farm for months, since the drops have droped into the unsaleable range and the changes have made farming less fun or productive.

So, what do I want? Access to the same things that those that have unlocked all thier runes had access to.

I found a nice farming build here, on GWG, pre-release. I realized then, that I would need to build one farming character. This was not hard and really only required some creativity and the skills to do it. Now, that I have built my non-farming character as much as I can (with 0 skill points left), and finished my farming build (got to farm for about 30 miutes with it before the update), I want only one thing, access to the same things that othe players have access to.

I am willing to work for it. Farming used to be fun to me. I used to try to see just how many White Mantle I could get on me and still survive. This is a personal challenge, and never helped in PvP, since melee is not an integral part of PvP. I admit I went into this game understaning more about it than the average player (I played several BWEs), so I knew what I was in store for. Now, I don't know what to do. I can't find enough moey to buy my nice looking armor, runes, or weapons. And the storyline has been made easier and easier with every update, so ther is even less challenge to the standard PvE side of this game for me.

I guess I ask, then why doesn't everyone farm? Why is that not a solution? No, you do not have to farm, but you could have. Now you can't and the team at A.Net is making it harder to farm and less usefull all the time.

Really why did they cut it off on me? Why did they not wait till I had the items I wanted? Many players got the items they wanted.

Again, this was suppoed to be a game about skill. Not time spent playing. Well, since I do not have access to the same things that all the players have, I conclude that time spent is really the deciding factor. I see runes as this distant far off thing, that I cannot obtain. Some people say that they do not makde the player, but I cannot confirm that till I get to try them, and I know that skills sure help a player be competiave.

Player demand is what is setting the prices of the runes. Elementalists (and thereby Energy Storage) is popular, and having even a minor if you can spare an armor slot isn't a bad idea, as its extra energy. Same thing with vigor runes. There's no reason not to have one if you can afford a slot, and they're beneficial to EVERY class, so naturally tons of people will buy them, driving their prices up.

Meanwhile, Superior Beast Mastery runes are selling for 600 gold, and most Mesmer runes that aren't Domination are similarly ludicrously cheap, because no one is buying them.

Crippling farming cripples gold gain and drop rates, which are already abysmal (When low grade white items are dropping in the Crystal Desert, there's a problem. If they're clean max damages, or near to max, that's another issue entirely), making it even harder to afford things like 15K armors, Superior Runes, Underworld/Fissure gear, High end weapons, etc. al

Furthermore, its because of the low drop rate that farming even takes place, as a lot of high end PvP guilds struggle to unlock or acquire runes for their builds (And nobody is allowed to say anything about not needing runes to be competitively or runes not having a significant impact until they compare the effects of some skills, particularly Monk and Elem ones, at 13, the max without runes, 12+hat) and 16, the max with a superior rune and hat) and a lot of high end PvErs struggle to make the cash they need to buy 15K armor or a Sigil.

The short of it is that asking for further farming nerfs without adequate measures to fix the root cause of farming is basically shooting yourself in the foot.

Of course, this opens up a whole new can of worms with people who think that increasing the drop rate (the most likely solution) makes life too easy.
So what's really the problem is the impossibility of a happy medium.

Lets face it. Although the game WAS designed to be based on skill but not items, it is absolutely based on items. I mean come on. The same peoples saying that skills are important and items are not are saying that having 10 more health gives you an utter advantage in the top tiers of pvp. You have to forget about the false advertising because now that there are people that have most of the good items unlocked and most of the elite skills unlocked, normal players are not going to be able to catch up.

Guild wars is centered around ITEMS AND SKILLS or else they would not have added the feature to unlock item upgrades.

This is a bad cycle because all the people who dont have money at this point are NEVER EVER going to get enough money for the sweet things in the game like item upgrades, 15k armor, etc while the already rich are going to trade amongst themselves because none of the poor can pay for the prices they set.

Items are a large part of what makes PvE fun. Nerf the items and you can expect people that play PvE to stop buying Guildwars which would, from a business standpoint, make the servers for the game really hard to maintain and pay for.

Sidenote: I am NOT blaming the rich. It is not their fault. They just farmed when they could which is totally natural. Its just they suddenly found themselves extremely rich because now there was no way for any normal player to get any significant amount of gold.

writing that in bold black typeface doesn't make it true.

This game is not "about" items. Common items are so close to the power of "best" items that only a fool would spend time looking for one.

hmm well if ur farming its not really much of an unfair advantage, cause i mean ur spending ur own time, other people can farm , but are to lazy to , it would be better to have a goul to farming such as quest though, it would give the ''farming'' meaning

So then why are people complaining about people farming for items.

Because they are jealous they can't get a statistically perfect item, when the second-best item that they currently have will do perfectly fine.

I do not farm because I want better items.

I farm because I like finding items.

I agree with Studio Ghibli. That is exactly why I farm. However I just wanted to bring up the people who DO farm for "better" items.

Actually it has more to do with honour. People from competitive FPS/RTS games are interested in winning based on how well they play, and any imbalance of items cheapens the wins.

How does it cheapen the win at all? Say I am playing UT04. I have an assult rifle and the enemy has a instagib shock rifle. Say I lose, then oh well I try again. Winning against the enemy with stronger weapons feels much better and is humuliating to the opposition. Besides, if you lose to someone with better items then you, you can just blame it on equipement (though I would never do that.)

Don't lie to yourself. You're not a normal player. Least of all, you're not a PvPer in the slightest. Don't try and convince us that "farming is fun" so that we'll enjoy the game when it's clearly contrary to every PvPer's oppinion.

I wonder...if unlocking all the skills for PvPers would affect the PvE economy positvely? There would be far less grinders grinding their way thru the game which should help with the economy... shouldn't it?

Within every patch they make the path of the treadmill they claimed the game wouldn't have longer and longer. If something is not fixed the endgame will be a couple of alpha guilds competing on the retail server.

I love farming... Ive added about 40+ hours to my character from it. Those 40+ hours wouldnt be there if I wasnt farming.

40% of my guild has stated they stopped playing since Anet has nerfed farming so much. Thats what they enjoyed.

60% of my guild went on to PvP. Thats what they enjoyed.

90%+ of us will buy the expansion. Thats out of both groups.

I think Anets plan is working perfect!

Make a game,

Sell it to make money.

Pay Devs to upgrade it while making no money from monthy fees.. no way to replenish the money they are paying the devs so..

Get some people to stop playing it until the next expansion so your not paying so much to keep your servers running.

Keep as many people as you can interested enough to buy the expansion to get more money.

Lets face it.. Farming hurts Anets pocket worse then it hurts anybody else.

If they would have left flesh golems and riverside alone you really think they would have lost a bigger player base? My guess is more people would still be playing.

Just something I thought up in my sleep.

How does farming hurt Anet? This is not really a valid point especially seeing that if you need to unlock items you CAN'T do it easily through normal game play. It requires a little farming to get money and items. You're not farming like in D2 for 10,000 hours to get items. The farming that ruined games like D2 is the botting and the hacks. Farming won't hurt Anets pockets only keep people interested in the game by giving them something more to do than PvP.
Not everyone wants to PvP when they are done with the game, some people like to take a break from that. What else will hold you over til next expansion in 6 months? Helping a buddy, yeah right that will last about a week if that. Nerfing drops so they weren't so common was fine, I agree that if you could get 4 gold items by killing a 15-20 flesh golems that is a little insane. But to out right make it impossible let alone there are people who have not farmed an not even unlocked superiors and stuff by playing the game regular. Hell they may as well just give me the items for free so I can have them unlocked. Can't farm for them, can't buy them (unless you have a lot of money to keep buying unid'd ones), and definitely can't get them just playing the game through. Removing farming is not key, you're guild may be majority PvP but you're not the only guild. Other guilds like to PvE, farm, help friends, and do a little PvP. Yes GW will prolly last for an expansion even if they start losing people. But if people leave the game because they have nothing to do or are bored, an expansion will not bring them all back. Anet needs to keep all it's customers or eventually its life will be shorter than most online games. They have a lot of excellent ideas but taking certain thigns away that keep players is not one of them.

What about: Playing another game, doing something useful in real life like studying, finding a job/girlfriend, etc. Guild Wars is meant to be enjoyed by gamers who want to have fun for 1/2/3 hours every day, a few times a week, or even once every few weeks. It's not meant to be a way of life, or a substitute for a job or even life.
Most non-MMORPG computer and console games typically take 10-20 hours, and are consumed over a period of 1-4 weeks in 1-hour sessions. That's healthy and enjoyable gaming to me. But somehow MMORPG's (which Guild Wars even isn't) are expected to last forever by people who want to play 10+ hours day. My suggestion is: Limit your Guild Wars playing to 2 hours a day, and you can have fun with it for a few months at least, just playing the game as it is.