Does UAS/UAR "cheapen" PvE?

My PvE character is a much better healing monk than my PvP character because I haven't been randomly assigned any healing rune unlocks yet. However, I have bought myself a nice superior healing rune.

I believe I have to agree with you on this point. It's like a crutch - gamers should be coming back because the enjoy the gameplay and replayibility, not because of investment. Period.

And on another point Xaanix brought up - a "newbie" can jump into HoH with all skills and items if they could use the UAS, but they wouldn't last more than a few rounds (at best) if they don't have experience or skill, if not both.

But that a player with potentially less experience and zero skill but enough time to unlock the skills/item for their PvP builds can gain an advantage over some with more experience and great skill, but a life and restricted game time, just because the latter has to resort to a template character or a build of equal (or slightly better) efficiency, and potentially gain an unfair win, is... well... not cool.

Sure the likelihood of this matchup occurring (sure it's a team game; so apply "team" where I said "player") is rare, but I have no doubt in my mind that unfair advantages levelled against those without the patience or simply without the time, take place in the PvP world of GW all the time.

I say no to the unlock options. My reasons: first of all, I enjoy playing GW, I enjoy the PvE aspect (as well as PvP) and I respect that others do not. I have little willpower. If the option to unlock everything was given to me, I would resist, because I know well the consequences. But, I know myself well enough to know that it wouldnt take long for me to hit that button. Then I would PvP, alot, because the PvE 'reward' would be gone for me, there would be no incentive to PvE anymore. As much fun as PvP is in this game, it would get old--fast. Then I would be left with a game I dont enjoy.

I understand the plight of the PvPers, but Im sorry, I care more about me then I do about you. I know that an unlock all option would quickly ruin the game for me, call me weak, Im only human.

1) The argument that "with UAS there'd be no point to GW" is silly. There _is_ no point to GW, or to any computer game - it's entertainment, a time sink.
2) The unlocking is a reward for playing PvE. Yes, but is it needed, or is the PvE fun in itself? For me I like the PvE and would play just as much without unlocking anything at all, I'd just make a separate build if I wanted to play PvP.
3) "PvP'ers need to earn their skills." No they don't. PvE'ers need to earn their skills. The PvP should be counterstrike: fantasy, a level playing field is a good thing in player versus player. It's the PvE which must be a slow progression of learning, and guess what, it'd still be. I get the impression many think that unlock all skills would somehow affect the PvE play. It wouldn't, not one single bit. PvE avatars would still need to capture their skills.

As far as I can see the original poster is right on the money, so chalk up another 100% PvE'er vote in support of UAS.

I somewhat have to disagree with Numa's argument that PvP should be counterstrike: fantasy since the critical difference here is that whereas in GuildWars you can simply carbon-copy another team's build (Granted you probably won't play it as well as they do, but it makes it closer), whereas in CS you can't exactly carbon-copy another clan's aiming and reflexes.

I personally still hold that a UAS/UAR doesn't exactly cheapen pve, but it does pvp. Someone said earlier "You dont win in pvp if you have no knowledge of the game. You dont win in pvp if you arent skilled. Why do you care if they have this elite skill or that? so what?"

Well, I say make them earn their skills so they have to try it. Who cares if they have the skills but still suck? I do. I don't want to pvp just to walk through 90% of my matches because people didn't learn how to play, I want to fight ever match, and be challenged. A UAS would give a lot of people a reason not to learn how to play the game, and if they never bother to learn, then they will suck, and the pvp matches won't be as good.

Do I think PvPers should have to do the current grind to get the skills and runes and upgrades? HELL NO! IMO, there should a be an unlock through pvp method, but, for the love of god, NO 500+ hours of levelling to get all the skills. A method that would take 1 week max to unlock everything for pvp. That would be the learning curve to make potential horrible players better, without offsetting the balance. The most you could be behind is basically a week, and I'd be willing to not have everything for a week to make my challenge in pvp better.

I find myself agreeing with both Asplode and Jackell here.

1) It is true that GW isn't based on eye/hand coordination like counterstrike, and it is true that UAS would lead to smaller differences between the strength of individual players. If all players were approximately as strong, the determining factor would be the cooperation of the team. The question is if that is desirable.

2) On second thought I would have to agree that UAS would lead to more completely unexperienced players, who'd played little or no PvE, going straight to the arenas - and of course getting slaughtered.
And perhaps giving up on the game because "everyone cheats".
Unlock-through-PvP is a good idea, although I'm not sure how it should be implemented.

I have news for you, this game isnt all about bulids. Sure builds are important, but SKILL means just as much in this game's pvp as it does in CS.

People go through all the pve missions and STILL dont know how to play. This is because skilled play isn't currently rewarded in the game, time is. So people put in their time, and coast through the game. They dont care about getting better, because there is no need to. A friend of mine told me not 10 minutes ago on AIM that people in his group in hell's precipice didnt know what pulling was. This is pathetic. Bottom line is that PVE is a chore, and excluding thirsty river, it does NOT prepare you for pvp AT ALL. When I see you winning HOH or your guild in the top20 on the ladder jackell, perhaps your pvp 'concerns' might hold some weight, but dont sit there and tell me that pvp would be too easy if UAS was in, and imply that you'll walk through 90% of your pvp matches. You get a big *lol* to that one.

This doesn't Make any sence to me. I never had to grind exp for my seige mode upgrade in Starcraft to keep me playing it for what...8+ years now?. I never had to spend countless hours killing bots over and over again in CS to unlock my "Kevlar + Helmet" option.

I've spent a totally ridiculous ammount of time playing SC, CS and TFT, and the designers of those games didn't have to use any tricks or bullshit time sinks to keep me hooked. I played because I wanted to be better then the next guy, I enjoyed winning and knowing I won because outplayed them.

I bought this game because, from what I read, I imagined it to be a sword and spells version of CS, with some PvE on the side. It's just a crappy RPG as it is now. I've spent 300+ hours unlocking skills/runes/item upgrades and playing through the dull story. I'm sick of PvE, and i'm sick of PvPing with the only 2 classes I have skills for. Having UAS wouldn't hinder PvEers PvEing, but not having UAS does hinder PvPers PvPing.

I've done my time, so for the love of god implement UAS so I dont have to spend another 600 hours unlockng the other 4 classes skills.

I find the whole pvpers 'plight' laughable. The whole concept that they have to "Grind through a crappy PvE to be competative in PvP with regards to skills" is just lazyness in not willing to put in any effort to work for those skills. It also shows that regardless of them saying the game is based on skill, their argument is contradicted by saying that they need everything unlocked to be good.

The attention of that shouldn't be dragged away in saying that the PvE argument contradicts itself because "PvEers want rewards for their effort as the storyline is crap". That bash holds no water. Think of your favourite RPG with a great storyline. Now make everyone max level they can have with all the skills and spells possible from the very start. I wouldn't play it, it wouldn't hold any challange at all. The PvE of Guild Wars is similar to this, obviously not the same as you pretty much hit max level half way through the game and it still remains challenging.

The runes as well are reward for skill. Not as direct as obtaining skills via quests as someone before pointed out, they are random drops in your team, but it still requires skill and teamwork (or skill with your build if you're solo farming) to kill the monsters which eventually drop rares.

The PvE side has a brilliant storyline and a massive explorable area that is challenging from start to finish. The people complaining about having to unlock skills and 'grind' for all this crap are just whiners. I think people need to ask themselves a simple question: "What did you buy the game for? Did you buy it for what it is, or what you wanted it to be?" Personally, I bought it for what it is. The people who want the UAS/R are the ones who bought it for what they wanted it to be. I think those exact same people should shut the hell up and either get on enjoying both the PvP and PvE aspects of the game or gtfo and play/wait for something else.

Sekkira: noone is arguing that the PvE should have UAS, only that PvP builds should.
PvE would remain exactly as it is now, with each character starting a lvl 1 without any skills.
The difference would be that if you chose to create a _PvP character_ instead of an _RP character_, you'd have access to all skills.

I reiterate my previous statements, I'm starting to sound like a broken record here.

Guild Wars is not a PvP game. It is not Counterstrike. It is not Unreal Tournament. It is not Warcraft 3. Guild Wars is not a PvE game. It is not World of Warcraft. It is not Lineage 2. It is not Everquest 1/2. Guild Wars IS a PvE AND PvP game. It is NOT a PvE OR PvP game.

I find this topic quite amusing. On the one hand you have the people that blame the skills they have because they can't win pvp, and on the other you have the people that haven't done the huge grind for skills and for that reason don't have any reason to complain.

Now I agree about the whole grind issue, once you've already completed the game (missions and all) you shouldn't have to be spending another 300 hours or so just to get the skills you don't have, or the runes, or upgrades. However, don't you think UAS/UAR is a bit extreme? Minimalising the amount of time it would be needed to get all this stuff would be better, I doubt this post would even exist if it was possible to get most of the things you need in 70 hours or so of gameplay.

As for Anet's claim that skill determines victory, who said they weren't talking about your skills for your skill bar? :P, just my odd take on this.

From what I have gathered, Guild Wars was never meant to be a balanced PvP game. It was intended to be like a card game where whoever buys the most decks of cards, or, runes the game through the most times, or farms the most, gets the best chance of coming across a superior deck. And from this superior deck, he gets an advantage and that this is what makes both PvE and PvP worth while for everyone. I find it strange that people say "this is not counterstrike, this is an RPG", when in reality, guild wars is a combination of genres meant to appeal to more than just the average grind monkey. I just don't think A.Net should have baited us with false advertisement throught he words on the box and the beta and then switched it up on release. But it doesn't look like this will be solved in the future. So i'm not decided that I will buy the expansions.

For the last time: farming (repeating a profitable action over and over) is NOT RP. If you say that you have to unlock runes, because else it would not be a RPG, you have no clue what a RPG is. In a RPG you advance your character by overcoming challenges.

Notice that they have banned bots. So the "main" challenge in GW for PvE advancement is finding the time to farm. Or masking your bot.

The fact is, GW is NOT a RPG atm, at least not a good one (How many different armor visuals are there for a warrior? How many different customization options to look unique? Why does the story jump around so much? Where are choices? Why is the only long term advancement option tied to my account("unlock")? Its NOT a APG!)
It could have been a great: CS:fantasy (3rd person) MtG edition for everyone (tm).

100% PvE player (no point in pvp atm, if i win, i may have owned loosers, if i loose, i may have been beaten by loosers who grind. Lack of feedback is bad if you want to start) votes for UAS.

Let PvP have the UAS, UAR. Let the developers focus on more content for PvE'rs.

It doesn't cheapen PvE play, the lack of content does that on it's own.

I'm 95% PvE'r.

I play both PvE (got one character through to the end and working on a second one) and PvP (because i also like it).

In the whole UAS/I/R arguments i believe i can understand (and given my experience empathize with) the arguments from both sides:
- From the PvP side there is the frustration of being forced to go through the the PvE "grinding" to be able to have some flexibility in their character builds. Even though i play PvE a lot, i can share this feeling - in order to try out more types of PvP characters (beyound simply the premades) i'm having to walk 2 more characters through the whole adventure again (less fun now than the first time around)
- From the PvE side there is the fear of loosing oportunities to feel the sense of accomplishment that comes from achieving an objective (like for example capture a specific elite skill) or the feeling that comes from being rewarded (by finding runes or items) when you go out for 1/2h and clear up a whole area. To me, now that i have reached the end-game and have explored just about the whole map, this has become more important (though Underworld and Fissure of Wow are still providing good PvE fun).

I propose the following solution:
- Allow instant unlocking of MOST but not all skills/runes/items for PvP only characters
- PvE players can capture/unlock all skills/rune/items by means of exploring/questing. The higher quality items, some of the elite skills and maybe also some (new) special major/sup runes without health penalty should only be possible to get via PvE.
- The PvE runes and items should still be aquireable via trading. Maybe (or not) some selling of skills might be interesting here.

This way, the PvP crowd gets the chance of trying new/more-flexible player/team based builds without (each player) needing to go through PvE 3 times for it. Hardcore PvP players that want to have the best and try it all can dedicate time to (via PvE) aquire the ultimate skills/runes/items.

At the same time PvE players still get rewarded. They will still get stuff that cannot be gotten by pressing the magic "Unlock Everything" button. It might even be done in such a way that defeating some extra hard mission/monster gives some unique skill/rune/item that cannot be gotten any other way (but NOT something that provides extraordinary advantage over all other players, more things like longbows with max dmg + x% or some unique but not overly powerfull elite skills)

What say ye?

I enjoy the PvE side of the game, I have not Ascended yet so I rarely PvP except in Ascalon I did alot. I tried a solely PvP character, and I was upset that I had to unlock all the skills for it to be on the list. If the unlock works for PvP characters and not PvE, until post-Ascension, then cool. Or a choice between the two.


A free web-based wargame you can play from anywhere!

I've played PvE almost exclusively thus far, and I just don't find a lot of the arguments from PvEers against some incarnation of UAS all that compelling. I haven't rolled a PvE char yet, but I certainly won't be offened if some "n00b" buys the game today, clicks UAS and has more skills than me. This person is enjoying the game in a manner of their choosing that doesn't affect at all.

Particluarly baffling are notions that PvPers have to work for or otherwise earn skills and runes. Skill and rune unlocking has an obvious place in the main PvE campaign, but can anyone honestly say that this adds anything to the PvP experience? Has the game been made more fun for the PvP only player because of the need to unlock runes and skills? PvPers shouldn't have to work for or earn anything; we all do enough of that in our real jobs and a game like GW should allow us to focus on whatever we find fun, be it PvP or PvE.

Why should people work in a game? I've never seen that one explained. Only self righteous gibberish that seems to go quiet every time the question is asked.

God damn I have explained this one over and over time and time again. I should just record myself and loop it on cd for everyone.

The whole point of the game is to put effort into it and get a reward out of it. That does not translate to, work to a certain level to win it. It means simply to put some effort into it and enjoy it. A game is certainly no fun if you don't put any effort into it, then it wouldn't be a game. It'd be a movie. Guild Wars is not a movie either.

To me, the people that want everything unlocked sound like the same people that were brought up as 'gamers' and when they got to a part that was too hard, there was always someone that would step in to do it for them. There is no effort involved in that, there is no reward, pat on the back or self gratification for having your character beat a hard part in the game because someone else stepped in and done it for you.

It requires work and it is tough. But it is also enjoyable. The challange of not just breezing through it and instead having to really concentrate on what you are doing, to work at it and practice to build your skill and knowledge of the game's mechanics in order to pass the hard part.

If you can't do that in a game, it is not a game. It's just pretty fire works on the screen in which you controll when they explode. If you are not willing to put any effort into a game, don't play games. You are no different from the people who pay others to complete the game for you or the person who hands the controller over to someone else when the game gets 'too hard'.

If you think there is no challenge involved or effort required in winning PvP tournaments, that could be part of the problem.

If they have an arena where PVE characters, who got to that arena through the roleplaying route, face off against only PVE characters in pvp battles, the unlock all option would be fine. Those people who only PVP would be able to battle each other with all options open, and the roleplayer who wishes to do some pvp with that character won't be at a disadvantage against a PVP only character who got all his skills and runes free.

Being I have het to complete the game with my first character, this may be the way it is set up. But as I understand it, the endgame arenas are open to both pvp only and pve characters. Correct me if this is not correct.

I say after you beat the game once on your account you should have an UA* option, and that option should be presented at the end of the PVE game each time you beat it. Giving you the OPTION to unlock them all or not.

I have fun doing the PVE part of the game, but I cannot see how if someone beat the game...how or why having this option would ruin the PVE part of the game for anyone else.

Like some other people have said, 'ive done my time going through PVE once, dont make me have to go through it once with each character class that I want to PVP with'

I had lots of fun doing the PvE part of the game the first time. And the third time (cause I found a new favorite profession: Smiter). But really guys, the missions are all the same, with very small minor things. For the most part its. "Walk forward. Kill mob. Walk forward. Kill Mob. Walk forward. Kill Boss. Finish Mission." Occasionally, its "Walk forward. Kill Mob. Walk Forward. Kill Mob. Make Sure __ doesn't die. Walk Forward. Kill Mob. Walk farward. Kill random asortment of meaningful NPC's to story. Finish". Or even. Walk forward. Kill Stuff. Run like hell". There is no skill required for PvE that I have seen... Except for perhaps the Fissure and Underworld, but with a good group, I could clear out the Fissure twice as easily as I could take the HoH.

I think the people who want everything unlocked simply want to play PvP on their own terms. What possible reason is there for preventing them from getting everything they want out of their own PvP experience? I don't think any of us should be so presumptious as to dictate to others what is or isn't fun and gratifying. For some, gratification will come from progressing through the quests and missions and building a character. For others, it will come through using lots of different skills and builds in the competitive arenas. I don't think it's fair to assume that the things we enjoy about the game will be shared by all who play it. Instant gratification for the PvP players in no way affects my experience, so who am I to tell them that I think it's important for them to "earn" their skills in PvE before they can use them.

No it would'nt be. FPS's are BOREING. How to play an FPS in 3 steps

1 If it moves shoot it
2) if it does'nt move shoot it
3) If it then moves shoot it

repeat ad nausem.

IF PVPer's want to unlock everything then give them that option but at the cost of NEVER haveing a PVE character. if they have all the skills,runes and items anyway whats the point of them haveing a PVE character.

Spike, I don't think you have the right to tell me what I find boring or not. Which is pretty much what all anti-UAS/R people are doing in the case that it has no direct effect on them. And in any case, GW would still be far away from an FPS (a FPS?). It's completely different. I don't need twitch skills at all to play Guild Wars. Except occasionally for Mesmer and Monk, but those are rare instances. Guild Wars PvP is about making a good strategy in the form of a team build. If that is related to an FPS, I don't see the connection. What we do want, that is related to an FPS, is jump-right-in-and-play, a level playing field, and it would be nice if we could get some sort of statistics-related bragging rights (go to guild wars website and see your kills vs deaths in PvP in various arenas for various time frames).

facts to consider (not just opinions)

1 an experienced team put this game together with core concepts in place for years of development and the 2 most basic parts are:

the level cap

no UAS (which has evolved into (UAS/UAR/UAU)

2 Anet is not going to change the core of their game soon if ever

the only question is if they will stay and enjoy what develops

Now i understand: beating KOR : easy as hell, no challenge, instant gratification.

PvE: copy farming build, make sure you have farming build, go to place the farming build was designed for, farm, watch the nerf, repeat from the beginning with different build/area combination.
Challenge, effort, reward.

You dont seem to consider actually beating good players to be the challenge. Um thats the point of pvp. A farming race to arms is not, unless you can fight for the best farm spots. Hard to do with instances.

Also note that you can buy accounts on ebay and use bots that can put the "effort" into this game for you. Wheres the challenge in that? Not getting caught?

I mulled around that idea awhile ago, and concluded it shouldn't be put in. UAS, etc. would be for PvP characters only. Why shouldn't they be able to PvE every once in awhile and play the story through?

I also originally thought that to be a good option. But, still PvPers may complain about having to go through the game at all, or they would ask to nerf the hard areas because they are incapable of beating them. Forcing them to go through the game once and not at all are essentially the same, but the former is worse if they never want to play PvE

If they do UAS, then this should/needs to be implemented.

the hard areas will be nerfed anyway, at least the ones pertaining to the storyline, 'cause those are the ones the casual gamers will complain about, and those are the ones Anet will fix so that the casual gamer can finish the game

Your argument falls apart completely here for some reason you think running through the game a third time or farming an area is enjoyable. Its not, yet I need to do it I passed the game did every mission and quest and at the end of it do you know what I had unlocked? 2 superiors 4 majors and a dozen minors out of all that I only had 2 minors for my primary profession plus I had a few useless gold items that I couldn't use.

If you try to argue I don’t need majors or superiors or good items then you have no idea about PvP and going from your earlier post that Guild Wars is not a PvP game it sounds like you have no idea about PvP. Guild Wars is a PvP game Guild Wars has very little PvE content PvP is supposed to be the end game hell its called Guild Wars. During the missions other then some very minor background notes you have no interaction with any in game guilds, guilds are not part of the PvE experience guilds are meant for PvP experience. Its fairly clear the PvE is just a lead up to PvP and PvP is meant for the long hull unlike PvE. Which then baffles most of us why we have to spend so much time in PvE quite frankly if this was a PvE game I would have gone on by now since I already passed it in fact most people would not be playing it any more most people in the PvE zones are people hunting for stuff to PvP with.

Which bring us to the problem of guild wars in its current state, the people spending the most amount of time in PvE are PvP not PvE players. Guild Wars PvE is designed in a story type fashion meant to be played through once in which case its highly enjoyable and PvE eccentric people obviously love it and so do PvP players unfortunately PvE players after passing it can move on and do what ever they want but PvP players have to grind away to enjoy the other thing they love PvP.

This was by far the most insightful post on this thread, in my opinion. Completely right on.

UAS and UAR won't happen, for the reasons Shagsbeard identified.

If the core of their game has evolved into grinding to unlock runes and skills, then I'm not sure I ever liked this game.

Nice. I like to see people are actually reading why I'm against the UAS/R/I idea yet comprehend it as how they want to hear just for the sake of arguing against me in favour of it. Not once did I say, hint or even imply that PvP was easy.

Oh, there it is again. Where did I say farming was fun? Okay, I'll say it now. I enjoy hunting for items personally. I will not say however that others do and others should enjoy item hunts.

Someone doesn't have any skill if they believe that runes are a requirement.

Rofl, very little PvE content my ass. You think they magically popped all of that map and detail, storyline, numerous quests, main storyline, etc out of their ass do you? The game has very little PvP content, mainly because PvP requires no content. It needs mechanics and then the players provide the rest.

True, but guilds can be used for PvE to orginise teams to do missions and quests. It doesn't rule Guilds out of PvE all together.

And what's the problem with people spending time in PvE? As far as I know, none. Where have you got your facts that people spending MOST of their time in PvE from? I'm not going to say one way or the other, but with a statement like that, you need some solid facts to back it up.

Also, when someone wants to pick apart my argument, remember this: I am all against UAS/R/I, however I have not said anything against unlocking via pvp with rewards and such. Apparently I have heard this will be implemented this week but I am not sure on the validity of it. I would say it's a good idea, but it must be implemented correctly. So we'll see how Anet goes with that one if it is truth. I also hope they fix that damn SoC(Signet of Looting) system to make it more of a challange without being frustratingly hard like apparently the old system.

"Someone doesn't have any skills if they think runes are a requirement"


It's called a level playing field. Consider this:

KOR and the Fianna face off. They're both great guilds. KOR and the Fianna are running builds that have no advantage over each other. Now, in this situation, you'd say. "Well, who will win?! It's too close to call!". But NO! KOR has farmed more superiors than Fi. The Fianna fights and the battle rages on, but KOR has recieved a 20% advantage because they farmed a bit more. Oh no! Now Fi is screwed! Fi is out! Fi's guild leader is dead on the cold hard tiles of their Guild Hall. But how did this happen?! Oh... Yes... Cause KOR had better runes.
The Fianna is a bit disgruntled now. They go back to their hall and ask for a rematch. And to foil their plot, Fi decides they will put together an evil build! Yes! That will do it! "Oh crap!" says one of the Fianna. "I don't have that elite! And I'm out of skill points on all 3 of my RP characters!" Great. Now they can't run the perfect build. They go back, and slowly fall apart because this certain skill was essential to their overall build.

Lets just call it UAU (unlock all unlockables). lol.

I'll agree with anyone on anything about runes being part of a build, right up until they say they are a requirement. Because lets face it, how many of us are in KOR or Fi? Members of either guild are excluded from this topic >:

So you're implying that Fianna WILL (without a doubt) loose to KOR, simply because they don't have as many superior runes?

Is it just me, or is this a bit silly?

Superior runes give -75 HP, and the more they have, the less HP they'll have, the faster they'll die.

Your post seems to come more from your imagination, less from actuality.

I still believe this game is all about skill/teamwork, having more superior runes than your opponent, does not guarantee a victory. How your team plays the match, judges your fate, not the the small bonus superior runes give. Maybe in a 1v1, all same skills, same armors, etc, it would be more likely the person with more superior runes would win, but NOT a guaranteed win.


IMHO, if you're blaming your loss on your opponent having more superior runes than yourself, then you're a SORE LOOSER.

What don't you understand? PvPers don't find putting effort into unlocking options for PvP characters fun/rewarding. We find it to be a dull waste of time that should be left up to talentless gamers. You get satisfaction from beating up on shitty AI? Good, im happy for you, real gamers do not. By your logic it would be OK for me to force you to watch 500 hours of shitty anime before I let you watch 100 hours of anime you like.

OH LOOK! I beat Final Fantasy XXXXXXIV!! Good for me, I showed that stuipd AI whos boss. But wait, Mike Drews came over and wants to play Street Fighter Alpha 3. Ohh man!! I kicked his ass!! 3 flawless victorys in 15 minutes, damn I'm bad F'in ass! By your logic I would have to spend 50 hours beating another boring, repetitive FF game before I could play 10 hours of Street Fighter against real players.

It sure does require work, but it's not really tough at all, just time conusming. I'd rather spend time doing things I want to do, not HAVE to do. What people find enjoyable is'nt fact, its opinion. I dont think you realize not everyone shares your views on what makes a good game. You could be the best PvEer in the game and I wouldn't give two shits about you. The people that have my respect are the ones from guilds like n0, KOR and iQ.

You seriously think PvPers think the game is 'too hard'? It isn't, it's cake. If you think otherwise then you suck at games. There are a few parts that are tough, the mirrior fight and the Monk job change quest. I cant think of any other parts I had to retry more then once

I assume you are talking about single player FPS games, if so then I agree. If you have never played CS on a competitve team then you have no idea what he ment. Anyway the same can be said for this game:
*Fill party with Henchies*
1) If mob aggros you, click it.
2) if mob doesnt aggro you, try to walk around it.
3) if mob sees you while you're attempting to walk around it, click it.

*Note* For those of you who think we want everything for free:
Hours logged: 294
Total Exp: 723,300
Elites: 27/30
Runes 76/81
These are stats for my main character, who I rarely use for PvP.

I would like to be able to make a nonMo/E or E/Mo PvP character without putting anymore time into the part of the game I do not enjoy. For those of you that think you need to go through PvE to learn how to use skills, keep your face shut, I'll learn in PvP.