Does UAS/UAR "cheapen" PvE?

I really do like this idea. Then it would require only playing two characters or something, if you felt like changing their secondaries, to unlock all the skills for the professions. I do think that is a good idea. I've unlocked all the necro/mesmer/warrior skills with this one character, and I think if I create a character now, that I should be able to use those skills I unlocked without re-unlocking them when I change my secondary on THAT character. I like that idea.

And yeah, it's just about the feeling of accomplishment. People enjoy that sort of thing.

IMO having access to all skills in a class from lvl 1 _would_ ruin the PvE. Not only would the game be much easier, but if people think it's bad with twinked characters in the noob arenas now, wait till there's lvl3's not only wearing Draknor armor with superior runes, but also wielding elite skills.
On the other hand a UAS/UAR button when you create a PvP character has no effect on PvE at all.

This problem will sort itself out in time when more and more of the "It's great the way it is" crowd finishes the game and realizes they have to do it 3 more times to try out all their pvp options and the "pve only" crowd moves on to greener pastures.

As for the whole having unlocked skills for all characters, i think its a good idea, although like others said, it would lessen PvE at lvl 1 or so, so why not let it only happen for ascended characters? thus making sure you're all level 20 and can't participate in another levels arena unfairly etc..

I find PvP pointless and dull. The reason I don't play FPSs very much anymore is because of PvP being pointless and dull. I prefer PvE (why the hell do you give them such stupid names, anyway?!), primarily because I don't have to put up with morons, and also because I enjoy it far more -- because there is a story, however weak, and thus a point.

Therefore, PvPers can have whatever they want to cheapen their gameplay, as it won't bother me in the slightest. I just fail to see where the 'RPG' aspect is. It's weak enough in PvP as it is -- nobody is playing a role, nobody is pretending to play a role. 'Immersive atmosphere' my foot -- people drawing a penis on the map whilst talking about how they are going to 'pwn' the opposing team for no apparent reason isn't immersive in the slightest. Take away the character development and you have yet another dull, uneventful action game. 'RPG' tag not applicable. At least there's more skill to realistic shooters.

Alright here's what I think. I think the PvP characters should get the skills, the normal skills ---not elites, from the start. Because in high-lvl PvP everyone will have all the normal skills anyway (or at least they're easy for PvE players to get)

The elite skills should remain as-is, because they're just that "elite". And you should HAVE to go through some work to get them.

The runes aren't very difficult to get anyways, so I wouldn't be against giving PvP characters all the minor or major runes, because those aren't very important. The superior runes however, should remain as they are, unlockable through PvE. This way the PvP players don't have to go through PvE a million times to get the MAJORITY of their skills for PvP so they can still play with builds and what not. And the PvE people won't really care because all the normal skills are easy as HELL to unlock anyways. It's the elites and superiors AT LEAST that should remain how they are, because if you get EVERYTHING with the push of a button, that's just CS in 3rd person.

I do agree that PvP characters shouldn't have to create all the professions and get all their skills like that. I do believe however that there should be rewards for playing ALL of the game. No ONE half should have everything just "there" for them. I don't see a problem with PvP people having non-elites and non-superiors from the start. Because those are what all you'll really need to use any "builds" you want.

And the superiors and the elites BOTH sides will have to work for.

So you'd have

PvP: Normal Skills and Minor/Major runes from the start

PvE: By the time you get to the arenas where everyone participates, and start participating in the tombs and what not you'll have the normal skills easily, and the minor/major runes are available at the traders...and just not hard to find.

And both will have to go find their elites. The only problem with this is superior runes being available at traders. I just don't think it would be right to give the PvP characters the superiors as well because a sup vigor at the trader costs a fortune. I wish we could just take away the friggin' superior runes from the traders as a whole, but that's a no-go.

It is a puzzle to figure out...true enough. But UAS for PvP characters won't do anything but piss off PvE characters who've worked hard on their characters and also want to bring them into PvP. So go figure. We can either trust Anet will pull through, or go play another game. Other than that, we've no options.

The problem is that PvP and PvE for this game go hand in hand. That's how ArenaNet designed it, that's what they intended. Everyone else wants PvE and PvP to be seperate games entirely. The game was really meant for the people who enjoy both PvP and PvE but done in such a way that you don't have to enjoy PvP or PvE. The problem is, PvEers have to 'grind' through PvE to get customisation. And it is a grind for them, because they're PvPers.

PvEers don't have to even get close to PvP at all to advance in any way in the game. That in itself is an unbalanced equation. UAU would tip the balance to be in the PvPers favour. You implement it across the board and the PvEers lose out. You implement it across the PvP aspect, and again, the PvEers lose out because they still have to unlock everything while the PvPers only have to sign into an account. And the ones that really get screwed over are the ones who enjoy both PvP and PvE.

As I said, at the moment, both areas are imbalanced, favouring the PvE side, screwing over the PvPers. UAU will tip the scales in a totally different way, favouring the PvPers and screwing over the PvEers. If ArenaNet is going to balance this out, they really are going to have to take it one step at a time as to not over tip the scales. We all know they are working on it and the process is going to be slow.

My advice for the PvPers that are annoyed with what it is now, put the game on the shelf for a bit. Go back to playing something else for a few weeks/months until they've ironed things out. For the rest who are going to stay, tell ArenaNet what needs to be done, what you liked and what you didn't like. Don't jump down their throat if they ****ed things up with one patch. Implementing this is probably going to lose a lot of people over this, we're not the real ones that will lose out, there are going to be a dramatic drop over how many buy the expansion which is supposed to keep them funded.

Well said, Sekkira. I couldn't have summed up the situation better myself.

The problem is known and is being worked out in some way that we are not yet aware of. It's a tough situation, so lets just see how it plays out.

the only mandatory pvp is the academy. be nice to have a quest that sends you to the arenas in ascalon, yak's bend etc...
not required but maybe a skill or even a weak weapon upgrade component for completing the quest.

Some people here think that UAS will cheapen the game. Well it will do so in 3months when everyone has everything. Thats the point of my post. Unlocking all skills only takes time, NO EFFORT AT ALL. Runes and weapon components are different, because unIDs runes may no longer sell for gold after an economy crash (wether this happens or not, i cant tell). Then you need to farm though stuff, which requires skill (to get trade goods that are accepted currency, black dyes, sup vigors, whatever). Now you can farm stuff that drops gold (everyone can do it, no skill required), and buy everything you need (takes huge amounts of time though).

So whats the point of feeling rewarded for NO EFFORT AT ALL? I thought you guys like to work, not do something a bot could do (and does, just dont get caught...)
Being NR 10-50 on the other hand, takes lots of effort... noone seems to want that though.
UAS cant cheapen the PvE for everyone who does not need an unfair advantage in PvP. This excludes pure pve - they can buy sup. vigors, they dont care about unlock. They also dont care about unlocking Mesmer skills if they want to play a WA/MO. Because they dont need to fill the role of a Guild member who got sick 1 day before a major event. Who needs mesmers in PvE anyway .
This also excludes PvE/Pvp players who pve with their cool looking characters in a noncompetitive environment. If they want to pvp in a competitive environment, they create a UASed PvP character.

The only argument that does not boil down to "unfair advantage" is the newb flood in pvp. Thats why most pvp players may consider a UAS15-20, because noone wants people asking "er what do you mean use skills? i can do somehing else besides attacking?" ... but pve is just a basic tutorial anyway, if you can believe the reports of current n00bs in pvp.


If you think that elite skills are elite... sigh, just sigh. They should have named the 15k armor elite instead.
One of the wost naming descisions ever.


Do you think you could unlock everything within 300h? If yes: others wont be able to do it, or just wont do it (BF2 ...). Who cares about winning an unequal fight. I go roll play World of Gankcraft if a want that.

I havn't touched the game in over a month and don't see myself coming back anytime soon. We were told during BWE that skill would be more important then time spent. I spent over 100 hours trying to unlock all my runes and skills for a single character and I refuse to go back and try doing it again. I don't care that Anet finally decided to make it easier with rune sellers and easier captures, it really leaves a bad taste in my mouth that I had enough faith to purchase the $80 game instead of the regular priced because of the great time I had during BWE. The fact is we were lied to and the game at release was nothing like the one we tested during BWE. Maybe lied to is a little strong, but we were certainly misled.

This game was suppose to be something different but in reality it is the same as every other rpg and mmorpg out there. The only thing this game has going for it is it has no monthly fee. The only thing that will bring me and some of my friends to log back into the game and purchase future expansion is the UAS button.

Excellent point. The game was not designed for PVP only. It is still a character developing game and if UAS/R was implemented it would ruin it all. Who knows GW might even be accepeted by CAL. If you didnt take this as a joke then something is wrong with you.

1) No, PvE'ers do not "lose out" with an UAS/UAR. How could they? The UAS/UAR only affects PvP characters. How does PvE'ers "lose out" or get "screwed over" by that?
The one thing is that it wont be a smart move to take your PvE build into PvP, it'll be smarter to make a special PvP build - in other words, exactly as it already is today.
I really don't see what you guys, Sekkira especially, are on about. Truly. How does everyone having access to UAS in PvP only mean that anyone gets screwed over or the game destroyed, when all it means is that everyone has the same chance?

2) No, PvP'ers do not get "screwed over" by PvE'ers at the moment. What it does mean, though, is that people solely interested in PvP have to play through the full PvE game at least three times, from scratch, if they want a reasonable chance to compete with all professions. This in turn leads to speedlevelling, grinding/farming, and much of the bad behaviour people complain about, because those PvP players don't want to play PvE and only want to complete the game and get the skills/runes they need as quickly as humanly possible. How can anyone expect someone doing the mission for the 15th time to help noobs, do bonus missions they've already done, or continue the mission once they got (or missed!) the skill/rune they've been looking for?

And that's why I, a PvE'er, support UAS/UAR - I don't want bored, frustrated, speedlevelling, farming, PvP'ers in my group when I go on missions.

(And could we PLEASE drop the frankly stupid argument that "everything is exactly as the developers wanted so suck it down".)

I'm against Unlock All Anything buttons. What I am FOR however, is making skillpoints easier to aquire, and getting rid of this absolutely cretinous system of having Runes be accessed only by random drops.

There should be repeatable quests that give skillpoints, and the xp requirement should not keep ramping up. If you want a skill there should be specific things (besides going to grind the Fissure or farming somewhere) that you can do to attain one.

There should be a mission for every rune in the game. Do the mission and the reward is the rune. Missions for Superiors should obviously be more of a challenge, perhaps taking you into the more distant zones like Mineral Springs. The point is that if you make your goal that of unlocking X Rune, there should be a way to put effort toward that specific goal and be rewarded for it. Assigning runes solely at random is purest crap.

Do these things and I think gameplay would be enhanced for everyone. Yes, it involves a little more effort than just poking a button, but it doesn't invalidate the PvE experience and it does make unlocking whatever rune you need for your current build something that, with a little effort, you can guarantee happens.

I believe the fear is that if they do create an UAS/UAR feature that what will happen is that the amount of people available in PVE will decline. With UAS/UAR people who are currently playing the pve content just to get runes/skills will noy play since there is no need to. PVP chars will also be not need to get runes from pve play so therefore the availability of these runes for people playing on pve is dimished from lack of people farming them. You thought it was hard putting together a group for ascension missions sometimes when there's not many people? Imagine if most of those people were gone since they don't 'need' to ascend for their skills anymore. UAS/UAR may give people a chance to play on level ground, but I think those are a few reasons why some people oppose UAS/UAR.

Don't get me wrong I liked this game halfway through lion's arch, but one of the only reasons I play after the game gets mind numbing boring is just to unlock some runes/skills for pvp.

Yes some people are jerks, but there's jerks in every game. Not all of those jerks are pvpers speedgrinding through pve for skills. Even if they make an UAS/UAR mode, there will ALWAYS be those jerks who quit after they get what they want, or take advantage of a group for their own means.

I don't support UAS/UAR, but it would be fun if ANet creates a weekend UAS/UAR event from time to time to let everyone experience the option for it. They can monitor how the regular servers are doing vs pvp servers, and see if it will be worthwhile, or if it will kill pve mode. The game just came out, and they still have a lot of content to add via expansions etc. So why not just wait it out and see what they have instore for us for the future.

What does UAR and UAS and the third thing mean?

unlock all (runes/ skills/upgrades)

Unlock All Skills/Unlock all Runes. The third thing I'm not sure what your meaning. I'm too lazy to scroll up at the momeny.

You should HOPE that the PvE crowd doesn't move on, because then Anet won't be selling a whole lot of copies of that next expansion.

And without those expansions making money to pay for their servers, those servers will go down.

Creston

Thanks to you and Loviator!

Oh please. The only thing you will affect is their profit margin - the servers aren't going anywhere.

AGH I promised I wouldn't post on this thread

Your a liar then. =)

The game will still sell for a while, since it's the newest non-monthy pay rpg type game. That alone will have alot of people interested in it.

Hi, I'm not a member of KOR or Fianna, so I get to argue right Mr.Sekkira?

Ok, First of all, the idea that you don't need an equal playing field to compete is the most convoluted thing I have ever heard. Let me break this game down for you.

Assume that all characters are at level 20 and have 200 attributes, because anyone can make a pvp character with said level/attributes. If you think this is an unfair assumption, stop reading because I'm not wasting my time.

Now all characters being at level 20 and 200 attributes is lovely, but the important part is the skills you play. Take any set of random players from all corners of the world and equip them with the same set of equipment and same skills with the same attributes. Now put those players to a series of tasks, and measure their outcomes. This is called standardized testing and we use it throughout the world as a fair standard of performance.

Now do the same thing, but half the players get an extra 70 attribute points.

Wait, wtf? Why did they get attribute points? Oh, runes = attribute points. So basically what you're saying is that if you are level 20 and have 200 attribute points its exactly the same as if you are level 20 and have 270 attribute points. huh?

But hey, lets get beyond that simple argument and get into the abstract, the complex, the advanced. There is a section of game theory that guild wars follows that I first noticed during the BWE's, but its not so surprising that guild wars follows it because guild wars is based on the game that made this theory famous. Its called the metagame theory and it became prevalent with Magic: The Gathering. Basically the metagame theory can be boiled down to this statement:

In a competitive environment, said environment consisting of the same attainable advantages and disadvantages, and the same choices for any given participant, the gameplay evolves in a predictable direction, but at a rate which is determined by the participants unconsciously.

If you got lost, I'll make it simpler. In an even environment the player determines the environment and how he/she plays it. If an illusionary weaponry build is the build of the week, rend enchantments will become more popular to deal with the need for enchantment removal. If people decide conditions are hot, more people play mend conditions.

This works fine when everything is even and equal, but guild wars is neither of those things right now. For Example: Assume that a build revolving around Hex stacking and Spike Damage are popular. You could go with fertile season, but that doesn't help the hexes. You could also try Convert Hexes, but Spike Damage is still a problem then. There is a great solution to this problem:

Spell Breaker {Elite} - Enchantment Spell
For 5-15 seconds, enemy spells targeted against target ally fail.

One Problem: Its an elite and its only in the very latest game. So now instead of pvping like you want to you have to go and capture it. What about guilds who don't have monks that ground their way past ascension? Well I suppose since they suck so bad they might as well not compete.

So now whats happened is that Arena.Net has created a game that follows the structure of the metagame theory, but removed the mechanism by which the theory works, i.e. the equality of the game. Now since the game is balanced to the high level pvp, and because the game relies on equality of choice, and because the equality of choice is screwed, the game is also screwed. Until A.Net fixes the game they will continue to hemorage players.

Good Game.

Thank you!

would you mind telling me how you came up with a 70 attribute point difference?

Did you read any of my posts? Or any of Sekkira's posts? PURE PvE characters wouldn't be affected by it, you're right. Pure PvP characters would get what they wanted. The people that get screwed are the ones who enjoy BOTH. People should NOT have to make a PvP character to compete in PvP. That's only playing half the game. People SHOULD get rewarded for bringing their PvE characters into PvP because this means they're playing through the ENTIRE game, not just half of it.

The way the game was created, it was INTENDED for PvE characters to be brought into PvP. And for those who didn't want to, they could only play the PvP half. They DID say that PvP characters would have to go through PvE to unlock extra things, and they do, because people who like BOTH have to go through it as well. Do you understand what I'm getting at? Sekkira already said this and explained it very well.

If you're assuming that people play either only PvP or PvE then you're right, nobody gets screwed over. But for those who play all of the game---THEY are the ones who get screwed in the matter, they feel cheated when they bring their PvE characters into PvP---and they should NOT have to create a PvP character just to compete and take up slots on their bar. What's that? You say PvP characters have to create PvE characters? Well at least they're not wasting slots on their bar because you CAN bring PvE characters into PvP, but not the other way around.

The PvE people don't get screwed or cheated by it. The PvP people either. The people who enjoy playing ALL of the game, are the ones who get cheated by the UAS/UAR.


Now...just one more question. You people keep complaining about having to go unlock Elites and Superior runes...

Why the HELL do you think they're called ELITE skills? Why do you think they're called "superior"? It's because you have to WORK for them. They wouldn't BE elite if you just got them from the start! You SHOULD have to work to get elite skills.

And don't tell me going out to get elites isn't work or skill-involved, when someone above just when and said "farming" takes skill.

A superior rune adds +3 to an attribute. Assuming the attribute costs follow the pattern (9-10 costs 13, 10-11 costs 16, 11-12 costs 20), it would cost 25+31+37 = 93 AP. So he was actually underestimating the advantage of a superior.

I enjoy both PvP and PvE. I don't see where I'm getting screwed. The only possible thing you're getting screwed on is this: If you have 4 RP characters, then you are put at the disadvantage of having to grind to keep up in PvP. But guess what? That's already true. The only other thing that you could possibly be complaining about is that you are not getting your reward for playing both of them. "I play a lot of PvE, shouldn't I get an advantage in PvP?". No. You shouldn't. It's supposed to be a perfectly level playing field. It was pretty damn close during the beta (runes still sucked).

thank you

i would also like to know the ACTUAL difference between the effect of a superior rune compared to a major rune considering the following

several people have stated there is a deminishing return above 12

specificially 12 to 13 gives less than 11 to 12 and 13 to 14 gives even less of an increase with the same for 14 to 15 and 15 to 16

based on that has anybody actually found out the REAL difference between a superior and a major rune?

not trying for a flamefest as i actually would like to know for my own future reference

only if you know and have the actual numbers to show as all i know is it is less than 1 (15 to 16 minus x)

edit

in this case between major at 15 (headgear plus +2 rune)
and superior at 16 (headgear plus +3 rune)

maybe Ensign would have the answer?

You're wrong, it is NOT supposed to be a "perfect level playing field" between bare-bones PvP characters and those who went through PvE.

It said on their webpage, that those who went through PvE would get extra bonuses. It said you could use PvP characters to be COMPETITIVE, and you CAN. You might not WIN all the time, but you can be COMPETITIVE, is the thing so long as your skill level is up to it. It might be more difficult than having all the runes and elites---this is true, but you CAN win, and you CAN have some good battles. If it ever gets down to the point where ONE superior rune decides the difference between loss and defeat, then you WERE competitive, you just didn't win. And it said, from the beginning, that PvE characters would be able to unlock different things.

Something people don't seem to understand is that it isn't SUPPOSED to be entirely level, where everyone has access to everything because then you'd be rewarding people who only play half the game. Those who play ALL of the game, should by all means have access to certain differences.

PvE and PvP are supposed to be linked in this game. If you only play on half the playing field, you're not going to get the full thing. Plain and simple. This doesn't mean you can't be competitive and that you can't give teams a run for their money, it means that those who play both PvE and PvP---the whole game, will obviously get a perk having experienced the entire thing. Is this wrong? Maybe. But that's Guild Wars. It's like in most any other game, you beat it and get everything, and you unlock something exclusive. Because you didn't just beat the game, you went out and got it all.

The way it is right now it rewards those who play both PvP and PvE, how do we know this? Because the only place you can tell the perks PvE characters get is in PvP, showing that they've played both. Those who only play PvE, sure they can still get the things, but they aren't a big perk anywhere other than in PvP so it doesn't matter.

Why does it cheat PvE characters who also play PvP?

Because the PvE characters just went through PvE, and they then go into PvP and find that they're just as strong if not stronger with the UAS/UAR button they got. They feel cheated because they then think "Wait a minute, I just played through PvE, and now I'm going through PvP. I'm playing all of the game, this guy only played it for 5 minutes! I actually played the whole game while this guy's limiting himself to only half of it, what's up with that?"

That's where the UAS/UAR causes problems.

So in other words, PvEers want an unfair advantage over PvPers because they played longer. Thanks that clears up a lot.

If I recall, the box says "victory through skill not hours played". A.Net needs to give us a strait answer. Do they want this game to be level or not? If not, I'm probably leaving, because I don't have the time to get owned by someone cause they've played 1,000,000 hours farming more than I have. You say "PvPers *can* compete". Well... any idiot can compete. I can pull at a paladin premade and "compete". Does that mean I can win? No. It's not worth competing if you have no hope of victory.

The earning unfair advantages argument is like saying you deserve godmode because you bothered to type it in. Well, I guess I can respect someone who can just stand up and say they want to cheat rather than just spouting self righteous jibberish.

Is there really a dimishing return on how it affects the skill or just the fact that those points are better used elsewhere. Instead of raising your skill to 16 in a certain stat only raise it to 10 and use a supperior rune for 10+3 and a helm+major for another 13. Then use the points you saved from using runes to put it into a 3rd skill set. Rather then have an extra 9 damage, per spell or something have an entirely different spell line do close to it's max damage(one that targets people who try to counter your first build type). Guess it's your back up, back up spell in case your first and second attacks get nullified somehow.

Only thing is this type of setup is only available to people who unlock runes, since without them your attributes only go up to like 10 in each or something.

Here we go. Here's a couple random examples.

Lightning Orb
12 Air (Max) : 82 Damage
13 Air (Max + Hat): 88 Damage
14 Air (Min + Hat): 94 Damage
15 Air (Maj + Hat): 100 Damage
16 Air (Sup + Hat): 106 Damage

They all yield a 6 point increase, and its an 18 point difference between Max + Hat and Sup + Hat, which is significant.

Mend Condition
12 Protection (Max): 57 per remaining Condition
13 Protection (Max + Hat): 61 per remaining Condition
14 Protection (Min + Hat): 66 per remaining Condition
15 Protection (Maj + Hat): 70 per remaining Condition
16 Protection (Sup + Hat): 74 per remaining condition

Steady 4 point increase, except from 13-14, where you get a 5 point jump.

Alright, now, to try it with a Hex.

Guilt
12 Domination: 9 second duration, 12 energy stolen
13 Domination: 9 second duration, 13 energy stolen
14 Domination: 10 second duration, 13 energy stolen
15 Domination: 10 second duration, 14 energy stolen
16 Domination: 11 second duration, 14 energy stolen

Not so much a big impact here. Basically, increase of one every other level in either category.

Another Hex.

Shadow of Fear
12 Curses: 39 second duration
13 Curses: 41 second duration
14 Curses: 42 second duration
15 Curses: 44 second duration
16 Curses: 45 second duration

A bit more significant, I suppose. Flip flops in a similar pattern as Guilt.

Ok, only two more, I promise.

Galrath Slash
12 Swordsmanship: +32 Damage
13 Swordsmanship: +35 Damage
14 Swordsmanship: +37 Damage
15 Swordsmanship: +40 Damage
16 Swordmanship: +42 Damage

And lastly, a Nature Ritual.

Fertile Season
12 Beastmastery: Level 8 Spirit, +474 Health, +24 armor, 78 second duration
13 Beastmastery: Level 9 Spriit, +509 Health, +24 armor, 78 second duration
14 Beastmastery: Level 9 Spirit, +548 Health, +24 armor, 86 second duration
15 Beastmastery: Level 10 Spirit, +580 Health, +24 armor, 90 second duration
16 Beastmastery: Level 10 Sprit, +615 Health, +24 armor, 100 second duration

Now there's a hugely significant different. The Health jump from 12 to 13 is +35, then its +39 to 14, +32 to 15, and +35 again to 16. The duration's first increase is +4, the second +10. So here, we see a huge impact as a result of rune usage.

Make what you will of the data. In the end, though, it seems, higher skill levels have a greater effect on skills that involve damage/healing/bonus variables than on skills that apply durational conditions, which only pick up a few more seconds of life (Which they probably won't even see, if the other team's condition remover is doing his job). Still, with the staggering increase of power Fertile Season gets, and the fact that an Air Elementalist sees about a 20% increase in damage output in going from 12 to 16 in Lightning Orb, and the 20-25% damage of Galrath Slash the warrior sees from 12 to 16 Swordmanship, the significance and impact of runes is pretty obvious. Those increases are nothing to sneeze at, and do make a difference.

As far as diminishing returns go, getting the same benefit you received at previous for a greater cost could be called that, but I would only apply that if you were paying attribute point costs. Runes, however, are items, and a whole different matter entirely.

To quote the box we've got "You'll prove your worth with every battle as skill, not hours played, decides your fate."

You do prove your worth with skill by all means, if you pick up a premade character and have a good battle, you prove that you're about at their skill level, you just might not have been able to win.

And to touch on "PvEers want an unfair advantage of PvPers because they played longer".

NO. This is not the case by any means. Anyone can walk around Old Ascalon for 200+ hours and say that they deserve more over the PvPers if that were the case.

And quit saying "PvEers". It is NOT PvE people who you should be concerned about because they STICK TO PVE. It's people who play and enjoy BOTH. Not "PvEers".

And it is not because they played longer, and it is not an "unfair" advantage. It is by all means a FAIR advantage. They EARNED the advantage by doing the missions, the quests, and by putting the time and effort into getting the elites and runes. That can't be summed up into "played longer". They EARNED the right to bring that into PvP by playing the ENTIRE game all the way through, and unlocking it all.

They said skill decides your fate---and it DOES. It just might not be ALL that decides your fate. A loophole? Possibly. But that's not what I'm here to discuss.

If you want to pick up the game and skip the PvE portion of the game, by all means go ahead. You might miss out on some of the benefits that those who play through the entire game get, but that's just how things go.

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On another note.

Don't get me wrong, do I think the current system is flawed? Yes, by all means. I understand the frustration PvPers feel about how long it takes to unlock all the, even normal skills. You still don't even get those on a PvP character, you have to go through PvE, with many different characters, spending a lot of time just to unlock the NORMAL skills. And that just plain stinks for those who don't enjoy PvE.

I do think that those who go through every part of the game should have a benefit---but the benefit that they have right now is too extreme.

I'd say that if you made it so that only elites/superior runes were exclusive to PvE, then it would be alright. Because then it would reward those who went through the entire game, without giving them an advantage that is so drastically unfair.

If PvP characters had all the normal skills and all but superior runes (or all but a few superior runes like vigor, which are insanely hard to get even for PvE characters), then that would even things out. PvP characters would have much more room to explore build options and attribute points, and so on and so forth, without giving PvE characters such a huge advantage at all. Elites---they're elite for a reason. And the difference between a major and superior rune isn't very much.

The system is flawed, but giving PvP characters every skill and every rune with the push of a button, isn't the way to go about fixing it.

The point is, all other things being equal, the team with the most runes or skills resulting in the best build win. How is that skill?

Coding an aimbot is closer to real skill than unlocking upgrades.

This is really a dead horse issue and us pvpers are beating it bloody. I have already moved to another game and everyone that agrees that there should be a UAS button should also move on.

This game not only targeted mmo fans but also fpser's. I logged in today for the first time since the first 2 weeks of may and noticed alot less people then when I was playing, specially in HOH. You will not see any major changes until they release a expansion and if it doesn't sell near as well as the game. While posting on boards and asking for changes is easy to do it seldom works. The best way to get a point across to a gaming company is through there wallets.

Ah, yet another UAS thread. How wonderful. All things being equal, the side with better runes/etc. wins? That seems logical to me. Two sides go to war and the side that practiced and trained does better than the side that just decides it's an army? Yup, that makes sense too.

And how many of these threads do we need anyway? Seriously guys, if a dead horse were to be flogged anymore than this, it'd be glue by now!

As to the question of why we are still here? Because this is our game. We came here seeking refuge from all the asinine MMORPG's and stupid CS players. This game is intelligent PvP. It is complex and it is wonderful.

And Most of All It Was STOLEN FROM US.

This game was advertised as low/no grind. My first character took 80 hours to get up to level 20 with moderate skills and equipment. The worst part is: I got RUSHED THERE. Thats like saying I cheated at poker and drew nothing.

We've tried, ok. We have tried. I have watched agony diminish from one of the most competitive groups in guild wars to people who barely log on. We've had the most players on recently that we've had since release. But do you know why that is? Gunz Online. Yeah, I said it. Its more fun and it rewards people for doing what they want.

Really thats what this is about. When we get rewarded for doing pvp the way the game is DESIGNED then we'll be happy, until then we will bitch and moan till theres no tomorrow. I will not move on to another game but drag this one down kicking and screaming because it could have been so good.

This was the silver bullet to save us from idiocy, and carebears have sodomized it and made it their plaything. Thats what this is about. I want my Game Back. I want all skills. I want either all the runes or runes to be abolished. I WANT EQUALITY AND I WANT IT NOW. I want it sooner than now. I want it last week when agony still played guild wars. We are sick and we are tired and we are angry and this was everyone's game that got turned into only the MMORPG'ers game. If you don't understand then learn. If you don't agree because you don't need it then let us plead our case. The only coherent argument I have heard is preference, and thats no real argument.

I want guild wars back from the carebears.