Does UAS/UAR "cheapen" PvE?

So its ok for top chess players to have a full board, but if YOU play against ME, its ok if i could buy an upgrade for my king on ebay (My king has sup vigor, you have to kill me twice )? Thats the point. Nothing in this game is challenging, unless your a guildless casual gamer like me. I wont mind UAS anyway. If a bot can do it, its not challenging. Unless you have a GF / BF / SO that does not like GW; a job, whatever ...

The real challenge (according to pve players like me and pvp players) is the pvp metagame. Sure i might win against someone using pre-builds. Sure i might loose to others. But what does it prove? PvP players dont play to "pwn". Its not fun killing helpless bugs. If i have less options then my opponent, i still may win. That only means i have more skills then him. It does not tell me how much skills i have exactly... since noone knows how much runes, flexibility etc affect the outcome.


To make it even more simple. Lets say the best team in GW SOMEHOW looses their accounts. Would they still be NR1 (or close) after a short while if they buy the game again? This is the ultimate test, dont argue about getting accounts back, it serves no purpose in this comparison.

If yes: there is either no worthy competition anyway. The skill gap to NR2 is so large, pvp is totally meaningless anyway. Or unlockables are meaningless. If they are meaningless, why have them as rewards? Are you that desperate to unlock something that has no use at all? how about cooking recipes?
If no: the game is not based on skills. It is just a waste of pvp players time.

Again, someone managed to totally misinterpret my post and argue against me by comprehending out of it what they wanted to hear.

Noone is stopping you from doing something else. Noone is forcing you to unlock all the skills and runes. Noone is forcing you to play a game which you don't like. Remember what I said, I bought this game for what it is and not what I wanted it to be. If it didn't meet your expectations, suck it up and get a new game.

We're getting heated here. And this thread will get deleted the way the others have.

I've tried to sort through the compelling arguments and the non-compelling, and this is what it seems to boil down to:

Pro-UAU: Why not UAU (Unlock All Unlockables)?
Anti-UAU: Because you should earn everything you get.
Pro-UAU: Okay, what about once you beat the game once?
Anti-UAU: Because that's not the way the game was designed.
Pro-UAU: But maybe it's a design flaw that was only apparent after release, because betas have a controlled population. Now you have dissatisfied customers. Why not fix something that won't really affect PvE but will make PvP more enjoyable for the majority of the people who PvP?
Anti-UAU: Because that's not the way the game was designed.

That's the core to which this all boils down, seems to me. If someone who is Anti-UAU has a better answer than that last, please supply it. Sekkira, please don't respond, you're kinda confrontational.

First of all, I said Unlock through PvP.

Secondly, there was a UAS in the Open Beta's, and I held the HoH quite a few times, and yes, I did walk through 90% of my matches because people didn't learn their skills. Been there, done that.

Yes, a one week learning curve that I'm proposing would be a chore. But one week? That's really not that bad, and I have seen the quality of pvp getting better since the UAS was removed.

I think he was more implying Superior Vigor and Absorption runes. It's simple math. Superior Vigor = +75 hp. Not sure how much Sup Absorp does, but let's say it's fifteen percent.

8 party members x +75 hp + 15% = 690 hitpoints that one guild has to wear down somehow over the other guild. I would say that that's a definite advantage (although unlikely to happen, ie, one guild having all Sup Runes and the other guild having none).

In the end, PvP is about killing your opponent. If one opponent has a numerical advantage over the other, all other things being equal, you still have to do more damage to that one person, as compared to the other.

Whether this is an advantage that can swing matches is debatable, but statistically, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to see how the player with sup runes is going to have an advantage over the one who doesn't.

Creston

edit : "You get satisfaction from beating up on shitty AI? Good, im happy for you, real gamers do not"

Bang that drum boy, bang it harder!
let's leave the 'Real Gamer' crap out of this, okay? Just because I think GW PvP is not really very interesting doesn't make you more of a gamer than me, or anyone else who prefers to play PvE over PvP. Note I said PREFERS. If I want to play vs other players, I would rather fire up HL2 DM or something to that extent. Imo, it takes more skill to hit someone in the teeth with a toiletbowl than it takes to hit 2, 4, 1, 4 with a certain set of skills
No offense, I just thought your post was uberly presumptious.

I see no problem with UAS/UAR for strict pvp players since it's all about ratings on a website or a few random /w you rock! from people whose name I don't even know.

When I pvp and it's very infrequent I don't want to have had to farm all my items just to be competitive, I felt I had to do this just to compete in DAoC which was probably never the case since I always lost anyway unless I played my BoneDancer (inside joke)

In GW i've gone on winning streaks (in random arena fights) along with losses so bad I felt as though I had been beaten into the ground to the point I left a permanent mark upon the arena floor. However, 90% of the time I still have fun because that is how I feel about pvp; it is just for fun. For that matter that is why I pve; just for fun. If i'm playing a game and not having fun I quit that game. I know a large portion of you view it as a contest to see who is the best. If that's your thing then more power to you, I just don't care if i'm 1 or 1,001.

Give me a level playing field for pvp on the occasions I do it when I want to do it. I'd be happy if I could use my 4th spot to make an instant pvp class that had just as much potential to be as effective as the next guy. PvE for the sake of pvp seems silly to me.

The "best" guilds in DAoC often had every advantage they could farm (most time played) just to compete with the one or two other guilds from the other realm that did the same and then brag about who won on the forums. These guilds just steamrolled the rest of us without a second thought. That is not to say most of us would not have been run down like dogs anyway because the good guilds knew what they could do, how to do it and meshed well.

I think for the most part it would be the same here even if all skills were unlocked but only for the people who really worked hard at it. That most certainly would never be me since I quit games like DAoC because I was working at the game more often than having fun. (reality check for me) Don't get me wrong, i love to loot items but I only like to farm for them in groups in wild areas when i want to, not because I MUST find that superior rune of vigor.

You keep your pvp out of my pve and i'll keep my choclate out of your peanut but.... or something like that.

Thats your best arguement? Go get another game? They are forcing me to unlock everything because I WANT to PvP with EVERY class and I CAN'T with the skills that I have.

Give me one example of how it would affect you if I had every skill in the game.

Anything else you say will be ignored from now on, your argument is weak.

I'm glad that my coming out as a 100% PvE'er for UAS has inspired a few others to follow suit =)

As a matter of fact, I think we are a silent majority on this issue (at least in terms of those who PvE and like to do so) - and I think if we just spoke up more, Anet would get the message.

XD That made my day. I am only confrontational when posts arguing against my what I have taken a stance on borderline or are personal attacks. I have not said GW should be this or GW should stay as it is because it is a perfect game. It is not, there are some problems with it but I wont adress them here as it would be off topic.

But ultimately, the example argument you put there is the truth. The game is how it is now as a result of the developers design of it. It may not exactly be how they intended it to be, but I would be very surprised if their intentions included UAU. Otherwise they wouldn't be there in the first place, seriously. Think about what you guys want when you say you want to have UAU.

If all runes were unlocked from day one, there wouldn't really be much point to runes at all, you can level the playing field completely by removing them entirely. Same with skills, except without removing them, you may as well remove quests too. Experiance doesn't really matter that much either. Once you hit ascension, you automatically hit level 20.

Why spend all that time developing a storyline, plotting it all out, mapping out an entire continent then? Why not just create a pvp game instead? Maybe because it's called a CORPG for a reason? The game isn't exactly centered around PvP, otherwise it would be more along the lines of RTS or a beatemup.

I am not for UAU, but I am not for the system as it currently is. Eventually it does become a grind, which is what ArenaNet originally intended not to happen. The problem is, how do they implement something that requires skill and effort to unlock something, without being a grind? If you can think of an implimentation that would make everyone happy, there's the suggestions forum down there, get to work!

and that is one of the major flaws of the UA? people when they make the 3+ advantage as a given

considering that points above 12 dont give the full boost that you get from 1-12 the total 3+ advantage is smaller than the difference between 9 and 12

also consider the other side may have a major instead of a superior which only gives them a partial +1 advantage not even a full +1 advantage

if someone actually knows the game stats to compare a team that is equal except +3 superior runes compared to +2 major runes it would be interesting

Glad you saw the humor because I wasn't going for you in particular, I just wanted to see if we could come up with something besides "it's not supposed to be an easy thing" or "if the devs wanted it that way, they would have made it that way." And you were being... energetic in those two responses.

I personally don't think UAU is the complete answer, necessarily, but I do think that if you've completed the game once in order to unlock stuff for PvP, more options should be available to you in that limited PvP setting. That's the sticking point for most people who are in favor of UAU; if it could be implemented without affecting PvE, why not let it be?

I realized today(after starting my fifth[5th] RP character), that I could care less if they had a UAS, or UAR, or UAU(upgrades). Would it hurt PvE, only for those that let it. Why? because I personally do not like creating a PvP only character, don't ask for reasons, it's personal taste. Now, with that out of the way, the PvP'ers don't really want UAS, what they really want(and I'm taking about the competitive ones, like in the Fianna) is an alternate path to obtaining those skills/Runes/modifiers, et al. Something other than having to redo PvE content for hours on end only to get one Rune or modifier.

Numerous proposals have been put forth already and A.net is working on making changes that will reduce the "grind"{isn't the whole idea of playing this game to get away from RL?, hence grind in quotation marks](another personal opinion, and before you comment, I have a family, job, etc. - and I want to escape from it).

Do not forget that some builds do not use runes to get above 12, but use runes to get multiple attribute points to the useable level.

For example:
Sword Warrior has a req 9 sword
req 9 tactics shield
Slams their Strength to 13 with a Superior rune
still has enough points to get healing skills to useable level

and the other person does the same with a major rune to 12

i was wondering how much difference between the full boost to 12 and the slightly less than full boost above 13

Exactly. I get mistaken a lot for a PvE'er on these threads because I don't support a UAS, but an unlock through pvp, but the reason I play the game is to pvp, I've always been big on pvp. I support mainly a short peroid of unlock through pvp, or if that's not possible, an unlock all after beating the game, and many of the hardcore pvpers in these threads have beaten the pve section. A pvper shouldn't have to play for 500+ hours to get everything for an even playing field, but I feel just maybe a week long learning curve.

If they allowed you to unlock things (moderately, not all at once or anything like UAS) through PvP, that would be the best solution. Why? Everyone gets what they want. PvPers don't have to play through PvE, it doesn't cheapen the game by making it so all things are handed to you on a silver platter (you have to work for it), and PvEers are totally unaffected (I think ). If they instituted that, it would work.

Apparently, UAU wouldn't work either way, because some people would get screwed. Unlocking through PvP (similar to unlocking through PvE, BUT by playing PvP) would be a solution that all (or at least the reasonable people) could agree on.

I guess I've always assumed the reason was that ANet wanted a game that appealed to both PvP players and PvE players. PvE players need something to work toward, otherwise it's just repetetive and there's no reward. I'm not interested in reading replies from people who already feel it's this way. If you don't like fighting mobs a lot, don't do it.

On the other hand, there are huge rewards for being great at PvP and holding the Hall of Heroes. They made the game compelling enough to be interesting for PvP players without completely alienating the PvE players.

There are people who enjoy both. I'm one of them.

Unlock all skills simply means you have to fight more variations of a theme. People will observe builds and instantly be able to duplicate them with no understanding or experimentation on their part. I'm proud of my healing and protection builds, especially the unconventional ones. Do I post them? No. It's not that I don't like sharing information, it's that I don't like to empower those who don't understand what they're doing.

I've been against this new SoC system for this reason. It used to be hard to cap elite skills. Many PvP builds revolve around an elite. So it was at least something of a bottleneck to keep annoying l33t h4xx0r kiddies from copying a build and being even somewhat successful without needing the talent or knowledge that came with DISCOVERING that build. I never understood people who complained about how hard the old SoC system was. I've missed a cap -once- and that was because my group was punishing me for trying to get them to employ strategy. A lot of the best PvP players out there were up and ready within weeks, and I didn't hear them bitching about having to unlock their skills. Now it's far easier to shop for skills...which is what unskilled players want (so fine, I'll conceed the point) but it floods the PvP market with players who don't really understand how to create a good build.

So if you want a con for unlock all everything, here it is: ANet will alienate players who like to have to work for that they have. Why would I, as someone who likes to use PvE chars to build the better PvP char, bother trying to hold the Hall of Heroes against an inexhaustible army of fully-equipped twelve-year-olds who can grab a super build off teh intarweb and stand a chance simply because their build is nearly foolproof?

I like fighting talented players, whether or not I win. I enjoy winning more, but I tend to play support so it's the fight I enjoy. Arming people this way really robs the joy from me. I don't want easy wins. I also don't want to fight the clone armies. Even with the flavor of the month trends in the tombs, that's not absolute. You always have the anti-FotM group builds the variants, the tweaks to the theme. It's always interesting, even if you have one or two crappy experiences on your way to the Hall.

How does unlocking everything enrich that experience? Truly good players are specialists. Most know what they need and want, unlock the skillsets for their favorite classes, and begin the experimentation process. Why should these players have to do all this hard work so a bunch of lackluster clones can rise from the shadows? Doesn't that cheapen *their* experience as well as mine?

I'm choosing not to look at this from the financial perspective...the opinions expressed so far on the subject were pretty dead-on. That said, there's my rant from the side of self-interest.

[ ]

I get told I'm a flamebaiter, so I apologize if this seems that way, but...

I'm against implementing an unlock through PvP system because the unlock through PvE system doesn't work yet. I've had to farm my rune collection. While I'm happy with the results, it was wholly unnecessary and I can't expect other players to do that.

I don't see how such a system would be any different than that for the PvE people...the best (EDIT: let's actually say "the most dedicated", not "the best") PvP players unlock everything while those casual or not-so-extraordinary players get screwed. Those players complain, the system gets toned down, the players at the top get upset because of all the work they did...sound familiar?

Honestly? I'd be for such a system if, for instance, you unlocked runes for completing bonuses on missions. If a PvP player will be rewarded for being excellent at his work, so should the PvE player. Right now it's completely random, and let's also face another fact: PvP players can still buy unidentified runes/salvage items...the PvE players are the ones creating them.

It's just as hard for PvE players to unlock runes as it is for PvP players, so I'm not really going to support a system that rewards either without being even-handed about it.

[ ]

Then make it random unlock for runes and items for PvP. Don't make skill unlock random, in PvE you purposefully unlock skills (you choose which ones in PvE, therefore should be able to choose in PvP).

There

That assumes you're always carrying a signet of capture in PvE. I'll go along with your plan if PvP players have to stock signets of capture instead of useful skills in order to get a skill they want. I'll also go along with that if the skill they want isn't always on the list. I'll also go along with that if you can figure out a way to keep PvP players from disconnecting once they get the skill they want, or alternately disconnect when they realize the skill they want won't load in the arena they're in.

...unless of course, we want to limit these frustrations to the PvE players who have to cope with all these things, in which case the system isn't even-handed.

So yeah, I can see ways one might be able to make unlockable runes for both types of player (though there is a limit on the number of missions you can run, so PvP players would have an edge unless it were one rune per rank). I can't see ways of fairly unlocking skills though PvP.

[ ]

The way I see it working, say your a just bought the game n00b, you create a pvp only character, either from the templates they have, or your own custom, as I think that the skills on the base templates should already be unlocked for pvp only characters to allow some variation. Then, you go and fight in the 4 on 4 arena's. Everytime someone on the other team dies, you get a skill point that you can use to unlock a skill at a pvp trainer for the pvp only characters. Some of the more powerful skills might take 3 or 4 skill points, while the base ones require one. That's 4, 5, or 6 new skills per fight (depending on the rezzing situation of the other team), and if your behind everyone else, all you really need is one good arena run with a good team to catch up.

Maybe 6 or 7 points for elites, and you can salvage runes and item upgrades from defeated opponents (they don't actually loose the item or rune, but you gain what they had)

Yeah, the system could be easily exploited, but even if it is, you'd still only be a day or two behind them.

Another point to make, the HoH is not the end-game PvP the PvP'ers are working towards, it's the GvsG ladder, that is why they want to be able to have everything unlocked, to counter the counters.

The top level PvP'ers need to be agle to be diverse to fill in any gaps that your team might require, depending on who's available to play on any given date/time. Without access to everything, you can then tweak that build by just changing out one skill.

Now that's an absolutely brilliant idea. Implementing that correctly would be very nice. If you unlock one or two runes by doing a bonus (which usually is a lot tougher then the mission itelf) would save a lot of hassle. But there's still the problem of implementing an unlock via progress in PvP. It's easy enough to put rewards to those who have won HoH, but perhaps rewards to teams that win the first or second match as well?

It's hard getting to and winning that hall, it's even harder when you're suddenly facing skilled players who know how to use the slight advantage that the rares give them for maximum benifit when you have none. Implementing it perhaps like fame, perhaps every certain amount of fame you get a random unidentified (one that you haven't got before to reduce the amount of copies) or perhaps if you get 2-3 fame at a time, then you get the unlockable. The latter rewards player skill as a lot of the time the first match is a pushover. The second really decides if your team is a one hit wonder or is actually good. At that point you could get rewards every match won up.

Yeah, the problem I have with rewarding just wins: a good group can consistantly get to round three with no trouble. How long does it take to do a bonus (which you can only be rewarded for once)? Rewards based on Rank are a great idea since you can only achieve a rank once.

Also, you should only be rewarded in this manner once per bonus per account, to be even-handed since rank is by account and not character.

[ ]

The problem with that is there are only something like 25 bonus missions. So unless you put the rewards in for actual missions aswell, there's still going to be some farming involved, unless the drops are fixed up a bit.

Also rank isn't exactly the easiest obtainable. A lot harder then doing a bonus mission. But I supposed if you put both into consideration, you could do the bonuses and then the game gets harder. But I also suppose by the time you hit rank 20 or something, holding the hall of heroes shouldn't be too hard.

I'm not satisfied with one-time pvp unlocks unless it is UAS. I wont be satisfied until i'm able to pvp with the builds and strategies i want to run without the required 300 hour farming grind. Nerfs to farming simply complicate the problem further.

Farming nerfs dont affect you getting the skills that you need

Personally, I find the whole thing confusing. Do we want PvP-only insta-chars or not? If so, what the heck is wrong with UAU? If not, then why do we have the option at all, why not just stick to RP characters and be done with it?

Personally, I think the insta-chars are a good idea. I've never used one myself and never intend to, but if other people enjoy them, great. But this half-arsed in-between system we have now doesn't make any sense to me. If you have to go through the missions collecting skills to make your insta-char, it's not really an insta-char now is it?

I dunno. Doesn't make any sense to me. Either let people make their insta-chars, or remove the option entirely. But make up your minds, AN, one way or the other...

You don't have to. There's an option to use a pre-made custom build, it supplies you with 7 skills, 1 elite. You can also create a custom pvp character, but you HAVE to have unlocked skills to do that.

I'm guessing you already knew this, so I'm confused as to what you're saying.


I actually think being able to create a pre-made pvp character was a great idea. Just wish there were better builds, most aren't that great IMO.

The big problem with thread like this is that there is so much inside discussion going on that the people outside can't be privy to, so everything suggested or proposed or discussed is so much speculation. There are things going on behind the scenes that nobody as insight to, so my suggestion is to relax a bit and see what A.net has up their sleeves, so to speak.

I'm against the UAS/UAR because it would ultimately taking away any feeling of achievement I get out of PvE.

I do of course by all means enjoy doing the missions/fighting monsters in itself, but I also get a great amount of joy by taking my PvE character INTO PvP to compete. I enjoy knowing that the character I spent time with through PvE actually gets to compete in PvP. If you people got a UAS/UAR, it would eliminate that feeling as a whole and more. Because then I'd take the PvE character I know and love into PvP and feel cheated when I find that I'm fighting an all PvP character team, and they're even more souped up than I am, and I spent time and effort into my character.

What's that? You're telling me now to go make a PvP character to compete with them? I shouldn't HAVE to go use up one of my 4 cherished character slots to have a fair go at the PvP end of the game. What's that? PvP characters shouldn't have to go into PvE to get what they need? Do you forget that ANYONE who wants to have all the runes and skills has to do it to?

Also do you guys forget that even the PvE people have to do parts of PvE that they don't want to do in order to do better in later parts of PvE? Here's an argument I've never heard used before. You see people, runes and elite skills don't only give you an advantage in PvP, they give you an advantage EVERYWHERE. And if you want to be able to take the UW/FoW, it will be much easier to do it with the runes and elite skills!

You PvP people, do not seem to understand this. The runes and skills aren't JUST needed for high-end PvP, they're also needed for higher end PvE. And BOTH PvE and PvP players need to go farm for their skills and runes to get what they want. Understand now? The PvP people don't have it any harder than do PvE players.

What's that, it isn't necessary to HAVE them in high end PvE? Well it isn't NECESSARY in high-end PvP. But we all know it's EASIER.

So there. There you have it.

I wish A.Net would stop with their secretiveness. It's not doing anybody any good. Every day I don't see an improvement, I wonder if CS:S would be more fun. All they gotta do is say "We're working on ______, but it probably won't be out for another monk and a half". At least then I'd have a reason to stick around.

As refering to the above post, it is true that runes and skills help PvEers, but there isn't much "high end PvE". The highest is the Underworld and Fissure of Woe, and really, those are easy with a decent group. That and a PvEer only needs 1 build. One build. The rest of a PvEer's skills are just ones he used experimenting or using as replacements until he completed the final product. And PvE characters don't need every superior rune and major to be good. They just need 3... 4 at the most. A.Net completely destroyed their PvP game at the cost of their PvE game. Instead of being rewarded by unlocks, A.Net should have given the PvE more depth. I see other guys that look exactly like me so often it's rediculous.

God, do I agree. Anet also seems right now to be on a train ride to disaster. They keep taking away the challenges and efforts of pve and pissing the pve'ers off in order to bolster the effectiveness of pvp, but it's not making the pvpers happy because it's not what they want.

Yes, many of the people who play only PvE are against UAS/UAR when they dont even play it. At first I was under the impression "noobs that only pvp dont want to do anything and own all", but after i started pvping I really understand, and I'm totally for it.

In response to weezer's post.

No, a PvEer does NOT only need one build. That would be like saying a PvP player only needs one character. And if that were the case it would not be a problem by any means unlocking the runes and skills because doing that for one character, isn't all that difficult. It's completing multiple classes that's the challenge. Both PvE and PvP players need to experiment with different builds, skill sets, and professions in order to find out what they find them most fun and/or beneficial for the situation they find themselves in most often, whether it be for PvE, PvP, or both. Different enemies and different situations can call for different things. And there are many who create multiple characters for PvE only, so they'll all be needing superior runes, unlocking of the elite skills, etc. It is not true that you make one character, one build, and your done. That's why there are 4 character slots, so that people can have more than one character, more than one build to play, whether it be PvE OR PvP. And do not forget, there are those who enjoy playing BOTH. So they'll need to be able to adapt to PvE and PvP, requiring more skills than one or the other I would say. Also, keep in mind that in later updates they will be adding more difficult PvE places, and these will require you to be more top-notch I'd have to say, hence more reason for PvE people to prepare.

Both PvP players AND PvE players want more top-notch skills and runes. Everybody wants the best weapons, the best armor, the best runes, and the best skills REGARDLESS of whether they be PvE, PvP, or both. And the fact is ALL players need to go through some trouble in order to get them. Is it absolutely necessary for PvE players to have them? No, but is it ABSOLUTELY necessary for PvP players to have them? No. A superior rune is hardly ever the difference between a win and a lose, having just mixed around my runes and skill sets I know this to be true in both PvE and PvP.

The fact of it is, we all want these things, but we have to put forth some effort into getting them. Otherwise it would just be another CS.

So we'll just have to either go find another game to play while waiting for some updates from Anet, or we'll need to stick around and put up with it until the update.

Either way, you asked for a view and that's my $0.02, I enjoy both PvP and PvE, so trust me, I'm concerned about it as well. I just don't think UAS/UAR is the way to go about it.

The thing is, UAS is in the game. This has been said by others, but i add a angle to it that really is not considered too often:

Everyone can get every skill now, without any "real life skill barrier". I captured an elite skill without really paying attention. While it was hard to get some elites, it is no longer so. So the only deciding factor remains time (make new char, finish PvE (or get a runner), buy skills, capture elites (can now be done with a runner group too, you just need to tag along till they kill a boss, no skill required besides pushing the SoC after the boss is dead - and picking the elite ). The thing is, everyone who argues for UAS actually wants UAS0. Everyone who is against UAS wants UAS50-5000 where the number is the hours played.

3000$ sound like a lot of money to some. If people played for 300h (and 50h of FUN pve, the first time through) of "repetead, unenjoyable farming", they lost ca. 3000$. Is a game worth that much? Sure you can say that you dont make 10$/h. So lets say 1500$. If you cant work overtime, or get a second job (try getting a job at all in certain european countries), you could have used that time to do research: cheap prices, etc.
No matter what, wasting 300h of your life is not something a sane person would do. So either make the process of getting everything fun and market GW as another "rise to power" MMORPG - or introduce UAS0. The only argument against it would be the newb flood.

Actually, I'm for a UAS15 - 20

Yes, actually they do, since i'm out of skillpoints, and farming was actually a good source of skillpoints. (i got 7 in a single day before the last patch went in)

Saerden, when people refer to a UAS/UAR they're typically referring to a button, UAS0, there's no need to complicate things by adding numbers to the end of it. That's called spending the time and effort to do it.

Also, tell me this. If you played for 300h to unlock everything and got everything unlocked, just how many hours do you think you'll spend now that you've got everything? I'm pretty sure the numbers will then even out.

you all make it too complicated. its all about that little bit of feeling of accomplishment when you unlock something.
the least vocal members of the guildwars community, the ones who never post on any forums. they mostly just wanna have a diversion from their real life and feel good about something. they feel good about unlocking stuff. even after they level to 20, even after they realize their guild will never break the top 20 in the ladder. they are still have gonna fun unlocking stuff and seeing how it works until the next expansion.

sorry, logic doesn't cut it when you are talking about games.

on the same token, very few of even the silent majority are going to have much fun repeating content to unlock the same skills for another role-play character so i think that Anet should consider a middle of the road solution. If one character unlocks a skill on your account then all characters on your account have access to that skill.