So what happened to 6 x 100% content math

Lyra,

I think the distinction that's being made here is the 6 characters get 100% of the content versus your argument which is something like:

The sum of the content a Tyrian character can experience and the content a Canthan can experience is 100%

These are not the same.

I think it's time for all of us to admit we got snowed. ANet blew some smoke up our assess about this whole merging thing with the infamous "6*100%" content marketing slogan. A lot of people here didn't like it and were essentially told that they should suck it up or play something else. In essence vote with your pocket book. That's fine. I was in that crowd. I plainly admit it.

Fast foward a few months and we find that our suspicions were confirmed: "6*100%" was a just fuzzy math and marketing. Now the same group of people that was saying to either quit or buy is trying to make it look like ANet hasn't broken any promises.

Whatever...

When you chose your Primary, effectively in that slot you have stopped yourself getting other profs armours. You can't do all the skill quests for all professions after Yaks. Its pretty much the same idea.

Listen to Lyra.

Free, Open Slot. Has the *potential* for 100% of the content. However, just by chosing a profession, you cut out a great deal of potential for the character. So the game does not allow you to access pre-sear... Heck PVP chars can't access Tyria (!)

And has anyone confirmed that you cant access the pre-LA missions, do you like err-007 or something when you go in?

Unless some time in the future Anet brings out the zOMFGness profession that has access to all skills can wear all armours and runes and has a 64 button skill bar.

EDIT: spelling, gah duverga beat me to it.

Personally I think Canthan Characters should have access to all Tryian missions and vice versa. Its only right.

But I think Anet was stating that 100% is skills/spells and able to visit as opposed to do the early missions. That I am disappointed, but I am not gonna rip anet a new one over it. Lets not fight over it and just ask Anet to implement it.

People complained over the 5 slots, got 6, complained they wanted to purchase more slots, they are implementing that. Lets just lobby for all mission access.

Your definition of content is a little... restrictive. People are talking about the map areas and missions for the most part. Nobody is complaining that they can't get every skill on their Monk/Warrior. (At least not yet.)

It is the same as someone saying, "Hey I didn't get 100% content because I never found a perfect 15^50% gold crystaline sword!"

The argument people are making here is that we don't get to explore all of the maps and do the quests depending on where the character was created.

Overall, this disagreement is mostly about people feeling like they got duped by ANet, and of course others taking a counterpoint because they can't sit by silently while ANet is criticized.

Got me on the pre-searing part, however checking over the quest list at Guildwiki(yes, actual guildwiki link) all of the skills reward quests after yaks are generic skills quests. You are allowed to do them, just not allowed to repeat them for your new secondary profession skill reward.

You cant get 100% of Tyria if you are Canthan born, and vice versa. Is that what everyone's problem is?

Out of curiosity, are there actually any gates or anything that prevent you from going back across the Shiverpeaks into Ascalon? Because you COULD still run back through the Ettin cave, and if you can do that, then there's nowhere you can't explore in the game, there's just (5?) missions you can't do. The missions, however, just use the Explorable Area maps.

Well yes, but it's more about the fact that Gaile said "6*100%" when she was trying to sell the whole 6 vs. 8 slots deal to the community. A lot of people smelled a rat, and that's been born out to be true. You really don't get 100%.

There's no need to defend ANet or Gaile because it's as plain as day. Just try to get the 100% Tyrain Explorer AND the 100% Canthan Explorer on a character. It's impossible. That's just maps. I'd hazzard a guess that you'd be unable to do all the missions too.

Can someone clarify is missions count towards the percentage of the map that's been explored? I believe they do, but I'm not sure.

Where is the problem?

who is to say that you c/n go and help rurik with the charr... then help the refugees get to lions arch? just b/c you have been there does not mean they have....

I'm sorry but i just dont see any problem with the story interfering with early missions.

Anet should either fix this problem of missing content or offer to give us our money back.

Maybe she should have said 6*100 with exception to the "beginner area like presearing and since the Canthan's starting area is so big, we will make it up to LA that you cannot access but to be fair with a Canthan, but to be fair a Tyrian cannot access the newbie area in Cantha either" ?

Being able to do those missions before the spot you start in would be weird to me, simply because of the timeline in Tyria.

You are already in Lion's Arch, yet the Gates of Kryta mission requires you to gain passage into Lion's Arch....how does that make sense o.o;;

QFT.

eudas

um the mission is to get the refugees to Lion's Arch not yourself...

It's simply a hole in the GW mythology. They didn't do a good enough job of map design to be able to drop you off in Ascalon by boat. Honestly, I don't care because I'm having fun, but I will say that what is upsetting is that the comment of "6*100%" was really just slick marketing. A lot of people thought it was bogus and said so. Then there was this chorus of voices saying that we were whining or we should quit and play something else if we didn't like it. Okay so we stayed and bit our lips, but in the end we were right. Maybe it's nit picking. I don't care. I just want ANet to do a better job of explaining this crap better next time. In fact what I really want is this:

$30 bucks for new campaign w/ no slots.
$10/slot with access to all maps/missions that aren't Pre-Searing/Monastery in nature.

If they did that and stated it all up front, then nobody would be here arguing.

Main Entry: ref·u·gee
Pronunciation: "re-fyu-'jE, 're-fyu-"
Function: noun
Etymology: French réfugié, past participle of (se) réfugier to take refuge, from Latin refugium
: one that flees; especially : a person who flees to a foreign country or power to escape danger or persecution
- ref·u·gee·ism /-"i-z&m/ noun

Well lets see...if you are Tyrian, you follow your Prince Rurik over a treacherous trek over the Shiverpeaks towards Kryta because of the war with the Charr. Wether you are carrying a sword, shield, bow, stave, or just your livelyhood and price winning pigs...you are still a refugee.

Guild Wars PvE in its simplest of simplest forms, is basically: here is a map -> explore it and have fun doing it (whether you kill stuff, or run around, or try and sneak by, or tank everything etc.)

that to me is the fundamental content component of GW PvE, exploration with or without others.

if you cant access certain missions, there are certain maps you cannot access. that to me says there are huge chunks of map that you cant explore, and hence cant enjoy.

the 6*100% argument resulted from people wanting to have as many PvE characters as they could to explore the content from different perspectives (different primaries essentially).

the 6*100% argument answered this problem by saying, well its ok, you can take a character in that slot through 100% of the content.

IFF you interpret it as slot based 6*100%, then what you have is a bunch of people saying 'hey anet, i dont want to have to delete my characters to go through content because i only have 6 slots' and then anet saying 'ok well we will give you access to 100% but only if you delete characters to go through it all' - which if you think about it - is pretty darn useless.

so you got 2 interpretations of 6*100% and 2 inferences from that:
1- 6*100% characters = we got screwed, because no single character can access 100%.
2- 6*100% slots = we got screwed, because anet didnt address the original issue of having too few slots for characters to fully explore the content.

the fact is, the difference between being unable to start a quest and being unable to start a mission is a difference of map explorability.

if you cant start a quest, you can still go to all the waypoints if you feel like it, you arent explicitly denied access to the areas, infact the nature of quests is such that you end up visiting the same areas from other quests and or just general exploring.

if you cant start a mission, you cant access anything in that map, you cant see what there is to see, and you cant 'play around' as you might like to.

the content of that map is explicitly denied - a quest doesnt do this.

so we come back to the original point - either anet directly lied about characters having full 100% access, or they deceived us about resolving the issue of having to delete characters to make room for others to access all the content.

Ok, maybe I'm wrong, but I believe the missions are in areas that are NOT explorable without being able to enter the mission. So, Canthans do NOT have access to the mission areas before Lion's Arch.

Also, I could say a number of things about my feelings on ANet's 100% content, but I think you have all done quite a thorough job, I wouldn't have much new to add, however I do have a

SUGGESTION:

There are places in Cantha where the city is divided between Foreign and Local quarters, depending on the homeland of the chars. If ANet's reason for preventing Tyrians from accessing the first two Canthan missions is because they are beginner, learning areas, and having high level Tyrians would take away from their learning, why not create a "Foreign Quarter" area, where only Tyrians could group together to complete the first two missions. This would prevent them from "ruining" the learning experience of the Canthans, while also providing them with access to a true 100% of the content, as promised. Then, why not do something similar for the missions before Lion's Arch in Prophecies for Canthan chars ? How hard could it be ?

The personal attacks, the condescending attitudes, and the strawmen stop here. Opinions can be stated without them.

As a note for people unfamiliar with the term;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

The worst of the above has been cleared out. If your post was removed and you did not actually do or say anything delete worthy, it was probably for continuing a pointless argument over one of the above.

I'm sorry if your posts contained other, more relevant information as well, but I deleted 8 of them, and there're other things to done.

The question is what is 100% of content for 1 character?

My interpretation of a character's timeline is:

Beginning (training), middle, end, + expansion content (new areas to explore, new stuff to kill)

For me, its a question of clarity. Anet never explicitly said either way what the content was gonna be like. They said that the monastery was gonna be a "presearlike area", so from that you can assume that you cannot access it. However, limiting the access before Lion's Arch was unexpected for a Canthan character.

Deceitful? No. Unclear? HELL YA!! >.<

So the gates are closed yet because the mission isn't complete, so the farthest you could conceivably go would be the gate to the Gates of Kryta.

Well, while I still stand by my assertion that you got everything you paid for, I also stand by my opinion that this was a dumb design decision and it was inevitable that people were going to be mad about it. The logic behind it makes sense to me, but it doesn't jive with the fact that the mission enforcement is already so loose to begin with.

Math used in the slot or varation of slot arugment makes zero sense.

There is no one here that work's in anet, have access to all there bills, operation expense, business models plans and detailes, how there design of the game the dev's want and how much influence NCSoft (there publisher) has.

Anet made this choice for what ever reason. I myself have no objections to the 6 vs 8 and it makes sense to me why the choose to do so for my reason. It boils down to this, will you buy future expansions, yes or no.

Now for aruging about "value" of what you get on how the implemented, that I can understand.. but there is no way you can back this up with math and it be accurate.

I don't think people, myself included, are debating / arguing over "value". The point of contention is between what ANet "said" we would get by combining accounts, and what we "did" get by combining accounts.

I have no idea how ANet's operating expenses, budgets, etc, are at all relevant to the discussion. It is about what ANet said vs. what they delivered.

Several people always try and drag "math" to support there arugment and due to things they don't know / or info will never have access to can never get any real numbers and all the math that show up is meanless.

I do agree about valid arugments about the value of if there getting them game purchase worth's. I was more towards the OP 6 x 100 compared to X% access to Y implied that I was responding to.

I can see we only get two slots and we can only access X location and latter being debated.

You do realize that it was Gaile who dragged math into this? Before that people were just upset that they weren't getting four character slots with this "stand alone" game if they merged. Gaile provided a mathematical explanation.

The irritation that I share with most people here is that the math proved to be a false analogy of what we really got when Factions and Prophecies accounts were merged.

That said, I do understand that ArenaNet has contraints on what they can achieve in a year's time. I think if they had been up front about it and said that they didn't feel like retooling all the old Tyrian quests so that there would be stuff for Assassins and Ritualists that would have flown a lot better than the "6*100%" claim. However, they didn't. The fact is Gaile put some information out there that didn't turn out to be entirely correct. She got that information from a guy in marketing who was just doing spin to help soothe the ire at getting less slots.

If ANet really wants to stop all this disagreement and wringing of hands then they should just change the way they market and sell their product:

1. Make it so that a new campaign costs $30 with no slots attached.
2. Sell slots for $10 each and give them access to all other campaigns activated by the purchaser. [DONE]
3. Make it painfully clear that only the "core" portion of any campaign will be accessible to those characters.
4. Desgin the "core" campaign in each chapter so that it's compatible with all characters types (future types as well). [DONE?]

If you look at the evolution between Prophecies and Factions you can see that they are already doing this. Why do you think that the quests for skills are gone? Because going back to old campaigns and adding skill quests for new classes is a developmental nightmare. You have to support old campaigns forever this way. So they've removed them from Factions and now you buy every skill you want. This is 100% forward compatible.

Lastly, someone early in the thread said something like, "just learn to accept what you get in life, you'll be happier." I tend to think that's a poor strategy. I believe that in life you get what you think you deserve. I choose to think I deserve the best and I'm happy to try and get that.

I see a lot of these 'story line' answers (not singling you out) - how come you don't worry about the story line when you go back and replay a mission to get a bonus, to help friends, just because or something - by this logic - your character should only be able to this once.
Edit: And by this logic they probably shouldn't be able to do any mission? Why pick up the fight half way?

Thank you for the update about Gaile, I didn't realize this actually.

CAVEAT EMPTOR

There are things we were led to believe about Factions and were not told about factions.

Some were told by a rep that Assassins and Ritualists could be made in Pre-searing. That was completely thrown away.

Some were told there would be two bonuses per mission. Implying they would be like previous missions. Instead we now have a timed kill fest and an even slower casting class.

Hints were made that faction points would affect play. It was indicated we could still play though. And you can if you either join the largest possible alliance you can find or if you just never bother to do advanced areas of the game. Small guilds, individualists, family guilds, people who want to play as who they are need not apply.

We were told the release date would be the 28th and with Pre-order you could start on the 27th. We could. Then we have to wait until mid-July to get our games because nobody bothered to fill the orders.

In all the game has become as exclusive as it can possibly get without saying something like: Only those under 16 with a bachelors or better in gaming need purchase our game. We no longer care for the casual player. Further, we denounce the tenants of individualism promted by the culture in which we produce the product and expect all players to do the same.

Love it or leave.

Fitz

I wanted to make a Ritualist in pre-searing and level him up, play the game, and then, after saving Tyria, transport to Cantha to do Factions.

When they said 6*100% (600% of content!!! Wow! I know I sure felt like I began playing with 400% or Prophecies! ), I thought it was a stupid attempt at fooling us into believing that Cantha characters would be able to begin in either place and move through the game just as Tyrian characters could start in either place. People like Gaile Gray and the ones here defending A.Net actually convinced me I was being too jaded and I was going to buy the expansion either way so *shrug* I let myself believe them.

Now, here we are. Factions is out and the only way for me to play a Ritualist is to Zerg rush him to lvl 20 a la the new newbie area (where that is the only way possible to level up), transport over to Tyria, and run him backwards to Ascalon where I will just dominate everything until I get back to Lion's Arch. Sounds like real "content" to me.

You people who are defending A.Net seem to be missing the fact that some of us were convinced that, if we combined our accounts, we could start any character from either starting point. I don't want to explore both newbie areas, I want the option to start at either one.

I have to agree. The lack of a face on the cover of A.Net right now and the increase in corporate PR style responses they had been throwing out to us has been turning me off more and more. I think A.Net did a smashing job with Prophecies and, since I've already bought Factions, I hope they will continue to do so. I just also hope they abandon such promotional tactics in the future. Sometimes the best way to gain a loyal following is to be completely up-front and simply tell it like it is. I don't want to have to read between the lines. It's annoying. If they had simply said "new characters can do this and old characters can do this" instead of all the stupid 400% vs 600% bs, nobody would be disappointed and we ALL (well, all who have) would have still bought this game. I don't think the 600% actually convinced anyone who wasn't planning on buying this game to do so....I mean, c'mon.

All of you, on both sides of the issue may be completely wrong. As a guildie pointed out, wait until you finish Hell's Precipice and the Titan Quests to see if that is true or not. It's quite possible that due to the different designs (Factions level 1-19 are basically training, Prophecies basically 1-5 are training), they couldn't just start you in Ascalon (not counting the harbour issue).

They've always said you would transfer over at Lion's Arch. That has been confirmed.

As far as geting 100% access if you merge, but getting 50% access if you don't, well who's to say that's still not true. Who's to say that after finishing Hell's Precipice and maybe the Titan Quests that you don't play in the Ascalon mission areas backwards in an attempt to retake/restore Ascalon from the Charr? Once someone completes the 'normal' game and maybe Titan Quests we can tell.

It's quite possible that Ascalon is the end-game area for Canthans. In that case, they would be spoiling the surprise if they told you early.

Yeah, they set the stage for Canthan characters in Tyria nicely, but storyline never really mattered there. I "broke" the plot the first time through by accident, just doing quests.

I think Anet's communication seems to have been very poor lately. They need to provide us with more actual information instead of dealing in vague rhetoric and hints. EDIT: I was on the phone before hitting 'submit,' a couple posters since really nailed this point.

I can't believe some are talking about "supporting" ArenaNet and NCSoft. Their balls are now made out of gold. And not in-game gold. Less than 50 PC games in history have sold more copies than GW. You're not really talking about independant artists on unknown music labels, or about your end-of-the-street retailer.

There business model depends on the sale of new campaign's reaching certain target number (be it existing or new players).

It's still and "untested" business model, one bad game could hurt them badly or worse, kill them. The radio interview was very informative.

yes, but there is error in your logic... just because the player is a "refugee"(in this case from canthya) this does not mean he can not help other "refugees" get to lion's arch. There is no story line reasoning that would prevent you from doing the early missions.

heh another flame wars thread

OP is right tho, the leader of communication or w/e gaile is TOLD us that if u merge u get all characters with 100% access to Tyria and Cantha, maybe next time they want to sell a game , NOT LYING might help.

I dont think laying down and letting things happen is a good philosophy, neither is believing that you deserve the best. Lots of people get things that they dont deserve and people dont get things that they do reserve. Your optimism is admirable though, and if that motivating factor brings you more success, more power to you.


As it applies to this thread, when it comes to things like consumer goods, "deserve" has no meaning. Its only "You get what you pay for", not "You get what you deserve".

I consider Gaile's PR to be exactly that....PR. Its still consumer control, and I HATE HATE HATE, when they are completely vague, especially when it comes to details like this.

I understand why they have to be vague. But I hate it. I understand that plans change and they were being pressed hard last minute. I understand that Gaile doesn't know what the hell is going on sometimes.

The whole day of the tengu fiasco is an example. Some of us were prepared for any mishaps and planned in advance. Some people didn't know what was going on and got jipped.

3. Make it painfully clear that only the "core" portion of any campaign will be accessible to those characters.

Agreed. Signed. Stamped. Die cut.

The 6x100 > 8x50 (or whatever the original misnomer was) was wrong from the beginning. Why?

Because it side-stepped the real question: Why not offer 4 slots with merging Factions?

Gaile would have been better off just saying, "Because we need your money, that's why." That's the truth. And there's nothing wrong with Anet wanting more money from those who want/need more slots.

If ANet had said 6*80 > 8*50, it would have sufficed for me. If they just told us, for whatever reasons, the missions before LA will be unavailable to Canthans, and the training island quests and missions will be unavailable to Tyrians, I think we would have been much more understanding. There would have been some complaints, as always, but not nearly as many. I just take exception to ANet giving us false information upon which we make our decisions.

Also, I don't mind paying $10 per additional slot although I hope it's not long that we have to wait before we can. I am glad that they told us before I bought Factions for my second account, though.

Anet has really been turning away from this game. The fact that it doesnt seem like ANYONE tested thier game before release, lieing to us about various different things, delay of CE... it makes me think that ANet doesnt appreciate thier customers. I was obsessed with chapter 1, but now im wondering if buying a chapter 3 is even logical. If the content/public relations things degraded this much from chapter 1 to chapter 2, think of what it will be like in chapter 3...

the whole point of this to me is that if i merge 2 accts, start an assassin (HAS to start in cantha - lil disappointing but acceptable) and set a goal for him to aquire EVERY title there is ... ive failed before i even buy factions. i DONT like impossibilities.

to me, 100% means being able to do anything and go everywhere with a character. YES i accept the little things like not being able to do certain quests along the way with EVERY profession, because ANY char can later switch secondaries and cap/buy EVERY skill in the game (having a single char with every skill is a personal goal of mine. im not even close to it, but its POSSIBLE.)

what i CANNOT accept is that a canthan character (and someone PLEASE confirm that a rit or assassin cant do missions like the northern wall, ruins of surmia, etc) has absolutely ZERO chance of ever being a tyrian grandmaster cartographer. whats the big deal about letting us walk through that area of the map? its one thing if a friend asks me to help him finish hells precipice and i cant because i havent gotten that far yet, but its a COMPLETELY different issue that my ritualist or assassin would NEVER be able to help a friend finish nolani academy .... because theyre limited simply by their class. this, to me, is NOT 100% access.

I went ahead and cancelled my CE from EB/GS last night. As you can see I preordered March 25th, 2006, and that was after seeing more info about it and being all excited. The the last straws were seeing the backup dancers, and how they were only for the two classes, and the terrible problems I have with Factions up to this point. I'm sure my CE copy will be scooped up by someone else, but right now Factions isn't worth the $40 dollars. I would only pay $20 for this game. I will be fine with GWP, and if CH3 is going to be anything like Factions, I'll skip on that as well. You are not getting my $70 ANET.

I'm sorry, but the normal policies (maybe unofficial) of these forums are that if you don't show the moderators in-game, then it is just rumor. You can contact them through this forum. Until then, we will go with the assumption that it is an edited screenshot and that you are secretly awaiting your copy of Guild Wars: Factions - The Collector's Editon.

:-)