The root of all evil (true reason for Factions hate)

Quoted for truth, I mean I thought it was about balance. I dont see the ballance in limiting our party to 8, and our level to 20. and having us go up against 12-15 monsters that range in level from 20-28.

A couple of reasons for this is the fact that the monsters are limited to one profession while we get 2. The monsters also are stuck with the 8 skills they have while we can keep switching ours out until we have something that works. Most groups of monsters do not have resurect skills, we can res our group over and over if we have the right skills. If the monsters were maxed at 20 then they would actually be too easy and then poeple would complain they were too easy.

I felt the thing that bothered me the most about ch2 was leveling up too fast and then being with the lvl20+ monsters so early in the game. With so many people being able to access their storage from the begining of the game and being able to have lots of money and materials just helped to speed up the game itself. It also caused a material shortage from the merchants.

I'm getting depressed by all of the hate Factions is getting on the boards. I think Anet really did a great job with it and improved lots of things. The storyline is easier to follow and more immersive, the PVE difficulty level is more challenging, the missions are a lot more fun, the titles give people something new to strive for, the art for the environments is amazing, the Luxon/Kurzick rivalry gives players still more to do, there are real rewards for beating the game this time around.

Yeah, the game is a little smaller, and the lack of material for characters levels 15-19 is annoying. And sure, I've spent enough time in the Bukdek Byway for one character to last for all 6. But overall I'm still really, really happy with Factions and I hope they keep up the good work.

My take:

This will probably be the most painful of the growing pains the GW series will have to endure. Long-term players developed expectations of chapters beyond Prophecies, and now those expectations are being tested.

Chapter 2 is much different from Chapter 1. Some like it, some don't. By the time Chapter 3 comes out, many players will have made up their minds whether to contiue with the series. From the looks of things, each chapter will be a completely different experience from its predecessors. I personally look forward to this.

Take leveling. I believe Phades and Shyft have both made good cases for the advantages and disadvantages of the leveling styles in Chapters 1 & 2. To a player with both chapters, making a new core profession character now comes with a choice:

1. Do I want to make my Mesmer in Tyria, getting skills through quests, and having a longer learning period to get the hang of the character?

or

2. Do I want to start my Mesmer in Cantha, using my knowledge of the game to come up skillsets that I will purchase, and learn the character in a more rapid setting?

Now, someone with only one chapter does not have this option, but it's an advantage to players that continue on with the series. And, this only works for the core classes, of course. But it's an option I'm happy to have.

If a friend asked which chapter to buy, I'd point him to Prophecies without hesitation. It's a longer game, with more explorable landmass, and an easy learning curve, with endgame challenge. If he enjoyed it, and asked if Factions were worth it, I'd tell him absolutely. I like having the level 20 content, I like the different flavor of the missions, I like the crazy swarms of mobs. It's not Prophecies, but I don't want another Prophecies. Know what I mean?

The people that were expecting something more similar to Chapter 1 have every right to be dissapointed. But now at least we know what to expect from subsequent standalone expansions. Each will seemingly be a unique environment, with its own pace, challenges, and quirks. And at every six months, I think people will be able to evaluate which chapters will sit right with them, without having to give up on the series.

Personally, I feel I've gotten my money's worth with Factions, and I look forward to future chapters, and the unique aspects they'll bring to the series.

While I agree with most of your post, the quote - for me - poses a design issue. A large degree of new chapter buyers are supposed to be existing customers. So we will be in the same fix with each new chapter offering new classes - unhealthy, onesided class distribution. Obvious reason - people want to try out the new content, but new classes only start in the new areas. If I already have a class, the option to build it from scratch somewhere else is of no value to me. Especially as my combined account is still short 2-3 slots (2 base classes, 1 PvP).

Sure, I can always use a core class. I made a monk for factions and can pick my invites. Still some groups are unhealthy. But what if I absolutely want to play an assassin? Unbalanced groups reduce the gaming experience for everybody involved and reflect poorly on the game as a whole.

Gaile mentioned the dev's are going to get some sort of access to the elite area's for those that don't control a town (no information on to what extent).

Also C2 character's will get access to do all the missions in c1 (without the rewards) will be implemented.

I am also very happy with factions, I cant wait to get home to play again. (if i dont have to mow the lawn) I was in no way trying to "hate" factions. In my opinion that would never be possible.

I have my peeves with factions and I have my likes :-) GW is a game that is constantly updated/tweaked so I know if theres any huge ZOMGWTF issues they will be addressed.

P.S PINEAPPLE HAPPY TIMES! o(0.0)o

Yes. The quests were all very different, and so were the areas that they were located in.



Factions is a stand alone, but a bad one. Compare it not just to Prophecies, but many other good games, and it is a bad game. Connect it with Guild Wars, and it is better. Factions alone is not fun.

I also think that even though we say we like the level 20 cap, and don't like grinding, we really do. People want to have to grind. If you remove all the grind from WoW, what do you have? A game similar to Guild Wars, but with a wider variety of weapons, that sort of stuff. Face it, people like the grind. Anet thought no grind would seperate their game, and get more players. They were wrong. Less grind = less addiction.

Prophecies and Factions are games that anyone can be good at. You don't get to level 15 and unlock new armor. There aren't all those incentives. You can play, take your time, or rush. If you rush, you will be set with a level 20 that can do PvP and PvE. Then you can spend time on non-grind work, spending time on builds, etc.

Accept Prophecies and Factions for what they are. If you don't like them, then don't play them.

Didn't have time to read the whole thread. But it looks as if Anet emphesized the PvP part of the game. This doesn't bother me since I'm a pvp-player, but for those who bought the game to solely play pve, well.......everything has been said about that already.

I enjoy the game a lot, mostly cause of the new skills which you can evolve into new builds. It's that part of the game which attracts me the most, and luckely didn't change.

Guild Wars is seen as an MMO, so people feel they should get 500 hours of unique game play. You can easily get that amount of time out of the game if you finish all the quests, cap all the skills and grind a variety of good armors and weapons.

It is much easier to play the game through and go back to old areas for a different set of objectives. This isn't everyones playing style, but it will help the game 3 months from now. It will feel like less of a burden to start a new character and there will always be some quest on an old character. In this way the design goals are distinctly different.

--Some people won't play a game with grind, but will are adicted none the less. See Starcraft. See M:tG. See original Warcraft games. See Civilization 1,2,3...

I've been playing the game since it came out, and I have yet to beat the game. I've only just gotten to the first luxon mission.

i would disagree with you anet move away from rpg! they move away from what they promised people in the first place. the game styles of rpg are different from pvp.

I also think all the flaming and chapter 2 has really hurt anet. For the first time you are seeing rpg players mad about their gaming style. Anet moved way from what was promised from beta. It is not about grind, it is about try to make better rpg. i would say that factions is force pvp and factions is about grind. All the skills unluck and fast pase gaming is for pvp and it is not an rpg. people want deep story and want to role play.

all the fight going on is about playing styles.

I agree.
The fast track leveling doesn't feel right. Comparatively insane amounts of EXP for starting region quests force me to tick them off.

I'm not much into PvP.

Faction grinding? A bad loan from WoW, though slightly better executed. Still if I have to grind faction, this becomes work. No thanks, I already have a job. Grinding is WoWs endgame, that was my reason to quit.

Faction grind: 4 small quests and you are about 2k-4k faction.

Leveling speed: I like it, I hated how long it could take in proph.

originality: Meh, we all cant be geniuses y'know. But. It's half decent.

Gameplay hours: Comes close to proph. by having repeatable missions, lots of quests, and tons of areas to explore.

New proffesions: I've tried Ritualist, seems fun to me. I try R/Rt spammer in Ha acouple of times, better than R/W IMO. Assassins.. I havent tried them as much as I did the ritualist so, meh.

Allience Battles: Great idea, hate how they changed it.

Guild Alliencing: Havent used it yet.

Controling towns: I wanted to control one as soon as I heard about it.

Slum area(or city): I like how you see all these peasnets, and how some put on a show!

Kuzick/Luxon area: Kurzicks are cool, but too dark for my taste. Luxons are neat, but too wildesh for my taste. so I switch back n forth(fight one mission on luxon, then one on the kurzick)

I agree with most if not all of what you said. But, there is really any grind that you don't want to do. All the grind in the game, you have to want to do it. All the leveling, items, and skills you can ever want in the game are right there in Kaineng City.

There is nothing that "draws you to grinding," really, as those places are there for people who like or want to grind. There are alot of people who play Guild Wars who enjoy grinding. The Challenges are provisions for such people.

I do, however, like the things in Factions more than the first game. I do wish, though, that they both had equally the same content, instead of Factions having half that.

I hate to admit and thought I would never say it but I am disappointed with Factions. Mainly becuse I have just got off the island and am at the first town and what do I find. Max armour and all the skills (bar elites).
WHY?
The majority of the fun from chap1 was levelling up, getting to the new towns to buy new armour and aquire new skills.
Now I have max dmg armour, all the skills I need and am at the maximum skill level. I have no need to go anywhere.

I might as well quit. I used to love GW but as you can tell, am a bit disillusioned. Unless something drastic changes in the next chapter, I wont be buying it, which is a shame cos I really enjoy the community and need something more in a game than just completing the final mission, I need a carrot dangled infront of me to keep on going.
Do something ANET ! Please!

I love Factions. It's more tightly focused, faster paced, and just plain more fun than Prophecies. All of the endless walking over huge landscapes in pre-searing Prophecies bored me to tears, and the monotony of post-searing Ascalon's endless wasteland got old fast. Prophecies didn't really grab me until I was making my way over the mountains.

Factions, on the other hand, grabbed me right away. As far as the end game being "endlesss war"... yes, that's the point. The end game of Guildwars has always been focused on PvP and that's exactly what I want: a fun, beautiful, challenging PvE experience that eventually *ends*, followed by some great PvP. If I wanted endless repetitive PvE grinding I'd play WoW.

for all the peple who want factions to be like prophecies: why don't you go and purchase a second copy of prophecies?

most of them probably have...

the thing is

guild wars should not be foucused on pvp, It is a rpg.

Just like what jeff had stated
http://www.odeo.com/audio/1063648/view

Well for the most part, reading these posts - most of you need to find a good guild stick with it and help build it up...lol...Factions has its disappointments but it also has guild building ability tied into it. Just like SF has ... Ya'll need to find a good group of guys/girls in a guild with TS/VENT and play together and keep playing together. The repetitiveness does drive me crazy a little bit going back and forth but if you got 7 other players all on TS and you are working together it is loads of fun. ANET will resolve the Faction Farming Issues which will in turn help out the End Game Content issues with the "ELITE" Missions ...

If you never programmed before you have no clue what these guys are going through. You can not expect them to have it perfect at the time of launch. You cannot expect or anticipate Exploits that a human mind can come up with. Thus why do you think you have to update your Windows every weak or so with a new plug for a hole. You think that hole just appeared??? no it was there but no one knew about it till someone found it and exploited it. You need to Give ANET a break or just quit playing the game and find something new to play!!! It will help out with my % of rare drops.

I enjoy the HD Graphics, When I change locations back to TYRIA and look at the map I'm like Dang I used to play this??? Man these graphics stink! I am for one thankful to ANET and NCSoft for continuing to work on a game I enjoy playing w/ friends.

The new sentinel armor ROCKS ANET - Thanks Again!
ALLIANCE BATTLES ROCK ANET - Thanks AGAIN!
Low End Greens ROCK ANET - Thanks AGAIN!!!

- Lord Shazneri [UNKN] - OUT!

^ What he said x50million

I hate Factions because of the horrible henchmen they've designed. I didn't think it was possible to come up with henchmen worse than in Prophecies, but they've done it. Good job.

I play a monk, and unless I am attacking a mob (a monk should not be attacking), the henchmen will attack whatever they want, and each one will fight something different. Meanwhile, the mobs, of course, are able to single out party members to attack. And of course, once I drop, all hell breaks lose, with henchmen taking off into random directions, aggroing whatever they can find.

And then theres the pathing for the henchmen. As bad as it was in prophecies, I never had to worry about a henchmen getting stuck behind a corner or something, and have to go track him down. Now, every time I look, I got at least one henchmen off screen because he got stuck on a wall, or on a staircase, or around a tree, or something asinine.

Or theres the very annoying fact that healer henchies will try to rez the same party member at the same time, instead of being able to recognize what the other is doing and choose a different target. How often have you seen two enemy healers raising the same mob, or two enemy rangers laying the same spirit, or two enemy warriors using "Charge" at the same exact time? Enemies are capable of knowing what others in its group are doing, and not repeating the same action. Why can't the henchies?

Its just too damn frustrating, can't do simple damn quest because the henchies are so miserably retarded that they wipe on any group of mobs larger than 4.

Ugh.. this again.. It's really not that hard to find out what standalone means. STAND ALONE. Doesn't need other game to function.
Stop it. Stop it stop it. Factions is a stand alone. Anet followed through completely on that. If someone wants to only buy that, they will have a full, self-contained game with a beginning middle & end.

As for how "big" the game is.. well. Prophecies seemed shorter the second time I played it, so I don't know. Also, all the distance running is gone and the pace is quicker. So content wise (which is acctually what Anet promised) it's very simmilar. Size & time? smaller.

wow. I acctualy do better with my earth hench & ele that acctualy use WARD! Plus not only is Silverwing the coolest looking henchmen of all time, but he seems to do better than Stefan.
I honestly don't like the Assasin & Shock hengies tho, but I think my biggest problem is the MOBs are different. I'm not used to fighting these kinds of mobs, in these kinds of enviros, so i'm learning. So far, I don't really notice a big negetive on the henchies.

Actually I am a software engineer and so I do have a clue of what these guys at ANet are going through.

I've been in the position where buggy/poorly designed code was rushed out the door only to have the customer base up in arms. I've spent the crazy days and late nights supplying quickly written patches to issues big and small. I've done it for months on end.

Guess what? Paying customers are right to be irritated regardless of how hard a vendor's programmers work on a project. Paying customers have every right to expect flawless products. They are paying for that, even if they get sold something less than flawless.

Here's another tidbit: It's much more fun to produce good/near perfect code than it is to produce buggy code. Know why? Because then you can spend the next six months writting the new fun project instead of fixing the buggy old annoying one.

Lastly, perfect code is achievable. If you don't believe that then ask the guys who write the flight avionics software for passenger jets, or the dudes that do the software for pacemakers. There are many more examples.

P.S. The "love it or leave it argument" is a form of logical fallacy called the false choice fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_choice

I must disagree with your claims about the new henchmen. True, some are worse than their Tyrian counterparts (Alesia > Sister Tai, Lina > Redemptor Karl). Their skill sets are different, yes, but that does not make all henchmen "worse." Simply different. Some are better than the Tyrian henchmen. The Domination and Illusion henchmen are worlds ahead of Distortion-spamming Dunham. Lukas is amazingly better than Stefan. The Canthan Monk henchmen are in general less effective than Alesia and Lina, with one exception: Danika. Danika's skill set is very similar to Alesia's, and she is very capable.

There are times when it is inevitable that your party gets swarmed with incoming patrols. But you cannot blame your party's death on the henchmen. If one is going to have a successful run using henchmen, one must use tactics involving pulling, retreating(if necessary), and just playing smart.

Henchmen are only as smart as their leaders.

Lastly, perfect code is achievable. If you don't believe that then ask the guys who write the flight avionics software for passenger jets, or the dudes that do the software for pacemakers. There are many more examples

-- Yo I am a coder for a unnamed internet service provider and btw Flight avionics code is tested for years in sims ... I would know since my Grandfather for the past 20 years was the only reoccuring flight instructor for the 747 in North America.

Anet Programmers have a deadline its due and has to be shipped it is largely an OS in its self tell me of an OS that has a short turn around with no massive ablity to test that doesnt have any holes in it that doesn't need constant updates?

If you want to complain about something complain about there beta testing phase. Not at the Coders!

It has nothing to do with getting swarmed. I am not exactly new to this game, I know how to pull. But when I fight a party of 6 lvl 20 mobs with my team of 8 lvl 20's (7 henchmen), and I lose, then there is something wrong. Like I said, I play a monk. I already have to pull and be the first one in combat, something a monk shouldn't be doing in the first place, but then as soon as I quit targetting a mob, and target a henchmen to heal, every henchmen loses his target (my previous target) and chooses a new target. Most of this time, this means each henchmen is attacking a different mob. Meanwhile, my monk is taking the brunt of the attacks, since he was the first one to be targeted by the mobs. And you can forget even trying to back up to lose the aggro, as soon as the henchies see you moving, they quit attacking all together to start backing up too. I had no problem finishing quests with the henchmen in Prophecies (I have three PvE characters that have completed every quest/mission in Prophecies), but doing the same in Factions is ridiculously hard, not for a lack of planning on my part, but because of idiotic AI.

Also, you completely disregarded the rest of my post. Want to offer any reasons why henchmen are incapable of planning their skill uses so that maybe two healer henchies would rez separate fallen party members, instead of trying to rez the same guy at the same exact time, every time. I have never seen two enemy healers rezzing the same fallen enemy at the same time, or seen two enemy rangers laying the same spirit at the same time, so obviously the enemy AI is capable of detecting what each other is doing.

Guild Wars is not an operating system. It's a client server architecture where the server is distributed for load balancing. I agree that it's very complex. However, the complaint here isn't about the client server relationship. It's seems centered around AI and mission/quest issues. (I'm less inclined to fret over things like exploits because those are hard to spot until you have a large population of players.)

Also, don't you think it's bad form to have your customers finding bugs in your product instead of your engineers and QA team? I certainly do. Of course there's a balance between getting to market and missing the market window because you wanted perfection. ANet obviously went for the market window, but that doesn't mean customers can't complain about bugs as you previously asserted.

Lastly, I get to blame the coders because they wrote the code that's broken. Did they write it against a specification? If so, did they unit test it against that spec? If there wasn't a spec to test against then the software engineering organization is broken is to blame. The best group of beta testers in the world won't help.

i think we should do a pole. I think anet should take their time to make a good game. As a guild wars fan I can wait. I mean does the game have to come every 6 months. If cost is a thing anet is worryed about. I think that must of the fans including my self. Would support anet with preorders and thing of the sort.

Maybe we shoulr do a pole on the waitng part. I would rather see a well done game. Well plan marketing. i want to see a really good game.

things that really bother me is the short story line, the feeling that it's rushed, and those gates, in profecies it had a purpose to get all the outpost, because of new skills at the skill traiders and offcourse all the little quests, it made me feel i really earned the skills, not bought them as a goldsink. also the argument of one of the developers or gail was that because of you have to buy them the build will me more variable, this doesn't work in Game, and E.G. for my necro there are a few good skills, the rest is crap and not even worth looking at, so why buy them?

I'm sure I'm not the only one but I'm on my fifth character through the game. True it's shorter storyline wise but they have much more quests... Not to mention when you're done playing through on one side you can go do the missions and quests on the other side to change things up a little bit. So over all I'm a little dissapointed because of how condenced it is. I think they were trying but went a little overboard. Perhaps they will have it worked out by chapter 3. Still... my fifth character through and I'm really not that bored... I can always try to get different armor sets and gain factions and there are some places in the forest that are fun to farm and cap skills from bosses.. they did well on Chapter 2. It's different. Some people can handle different some people can't.

As for the bugs if you played the first GW there was bugs. If you played any online game when it FIRST came out, there were bugs. Give them a break. Besides they don't have to make it perfect if they don't want to (there are much much worse online games out there) so the fact that its as good as it is... and free.. we should all be gratefull that we have GW in the first place.

I think PC game makers tend to be more lenient because they CAN make patches. Console game makers cannot make the same mistake (at least those who dont offer internet connectivity).

That and I seriously think they WANT the players to mold the game.

Yeah, pulling with henchmen is difficult. Sure, you can use the Shift-Ctrl-Space trick, but depending on the mob, they'll sometimes still swarm you, rushing through the seven henchmen to get to you. ETA: And it's not possible to pull with a ranger, which really sucks. The moment you attack, the henchies rush in.

You can avoid this by not actually attacking them. Just target them using Ctrl-Shift-Space to get the henchmen to engage, then heal to your heart's content. The only problem with this is that sometimes the henchmen will disengage when in a middle of the mob because you aren't attacking anything. And the problem stated above--even though you're still outside the mob's aggro range and haven't attacked them, they'll sometimes still swarm YOU, ignoring the henchmen pounding on them.

I agree with Rayne's points that most of the henchmen are as competent as the ones in Prophecies except for the healers (though Danika and Redemptor Karl make a great team). However, there are some mobs in the city that are still difficult. I find it gets easier as you go along. Jade Brotherhood are the worst.

It sometimes takes them a long time to rez, and a few times, they haven't rezzed at all. I've had to rez a fallen member, after a fight, after waiting around for Sister Tai or Professor Gai to do it. They're too busy picking their noses, I guess.

Very true, and sometimes the leaders have a great plan that they can't accomplish with henchmen because of a lack of simple commands like don't move, pull, stay on target until dead, disengage.

And because gamers tolerate buggy games out of the gate. Case in point: all the people here saying, "It's only been a week, give them a chance," when the game was released, even though some of the bugs were so obvious that my cat could have found them after playing in the city for 30 seconds. There will most likely be minor bugs in games that are initially released, but the big stuff shouldn't make it through. However, as long as gamers continue to coddle game developers and allow them to release buggy games, it'll keep happening.

I thought we WERE the beta testers ?

Damn, so it's all OUR fault..

Your example of flight software is unfair to say the least. As was stated before, that software is tested for years (I've read in some places a year for 1 block of software) in Flight testing beds & avionics integration labs. Environments made for the sole purpose of testing these kinds of things. Not that Avionic software is simplistic, but I hesitate to say Guild Wars (AI or other wise) is easier to test. Not to metion that Filght software developers are awarded $20.3 million contracts to develop these kinds of applications.

Don't compair this to a A-net. It's lopsided at best. Also, we aren't talking about buggy software, we are talking about how well the AI works in the current situation. The AI works just fine, wonderful infact. But to say that AI will perfectly accomplish what you want it to in every situation is silly, since Intelligence is subjective based on situation & goal. First, it doesn't know what your thinking, so unless they turn it into an RTS you can't tell them. Second, there are a million approches to every situation. Third, they don't want the Henchmen to be playing the game FOR you. I dunno... the Henchmen are dumb, but there are time when they are better than some people!

I've always had the impression, even before Guildwars launched, that the game was heavily focused on PvP, and that PvP was the core of Guildwars. I have no clue where you're getting the "should not be focused on pvp" idea from. If you're not interesting in PvP, I don't know why you'd be playing guildwars at all.

I think it's a fair comparison. The difference between ANet and a flight avionics software company is that ANet knows shipping buggy software is acceptable (within limits). An avionics software company can't get away with that for obvious reasons. However, there's nothing preventing ANet from testing its software to the same degree that an avionics company would except market pressure. The pressure is to get out product and capture market share.

I mainly made the comparison to suggest that customers are ultimately the driving force behind quality, but programmers will always be responsible for the qaulity of the code they produce. As a software developer I know I must write good code because my customers demand it. If I don't then it's my fault and my customers will probably go somewhere else. I can't blame them for being upset or for the fact that my job is "hard." They don't care about that. They do care that they are getting quality software that works as advertised.

Sorry, but the game really does have bugs, and the AI is one place that this shows up. I honestly believe the problem lies with the new skillsets that some henchmen have. The AI was built around old skills so now it doesn't cope with the new ones well at all. (Think monks waiting for ritualist to rez or monks that have signet of devotion with no points in divine.) The new classes are also thrown into the mix and this gives problems to the AI. These are all new changes that weren't thoroughly tested. Now the AI doesn't even measure up to the player's expectations from Prophecies of what a decent AI should do. That's a bug because it's a regression.