Vile Touch, Vampiric Touch, and Touch of Agony make them "Attack Skills"
"Touch rangers are mildly overpowered, they were not a problem before Factions, but with dulpicated skills they've become more then a simple nuisance." Quote from -Ken Dei
if a touch ranger is next to you using these "skills" there is nothing you can do but run away. there is no skill to lower the damage: ward, stance or mantra. there is no way to limit the amount of life gained by the ranger.
things that stop attacks would now have an impact -- like empathy, ineptitude, or sig of midnight...
Yall should chill about the word nerf (perhaps i should have called this a ele/mesmer buff)... I am not suggesting to nerf the build by lowering DPS or by changing any energy managment(Expertise still works with attack skills)... i think its a good build. i am only suggesting to make them attack skills... think about it -- if a blind warrior cant hit you with a hammer why should a necro be able to touch you with less range?
e-denial + snare and degen will stop ANY build. We are being forced to use a cookie cutter build to balance a creative build.
what i am suggesting is not a HUGE nerf... to say that blind would stop you from touching someone is not huge, rangers(with weapons) warriors and assassins must deal with blind why should touch rangers be any diffrent?
Please include any reasons WHY you think there should or shouldn't be a nerf.
Edit: I moved up some information as this thread got merged with another...
Touch Ranger Nerf Idea
Gargle Blaster
Rikimaru
Except then they can spam the skills with half the cost.
Was there ever a problem with rangers using those skills being overpowered?
Was there ever a problem with rangers using those skills being overpowered?
Mandy Memory
If running up and biting someone's neck is a normal form of attack, then I have been fighting wrong all these years.
They are fine the way they are.
They are fine the way they are.
Gargle Blaster
I am not suggesting that they are "normal attacks" -- I suggest that they are attacks. Skills that directly do damage should be considered attack skills (Vile Touch, Vampiric Touch, Touch of Agony).
Plague Touch is a skill (it does not do direct damage). this is what a "skill" should be.
Plague Touch is a skill (it does not do direct damage). this is what a "skill" should be.
Kakumei
What difference would this change make? Attack skills are lowered by Expertise too.
Gargle Blaster
The difference is that conditions like blind would stop them.
McMullen
Change them to a spell, that way expertise won't have any effect on energy cost.
MelechRic
I used to touch ranger in RA for kicks. It's a fun build that works suprisingly well against melee chars (warriors,assassin,rangers). However, it's completely worthless anywhere other than RA. Even in RA it's less than stellar because if you get snared/slowed or kited by your target then you're unable to do any real damage at all. Any mesmer, water ele or necro worth their salt can simply degen you to death.
/not signed
/not signed
Gargle Blaster
changing them to spells seems a bit extreme of a nerf to me.. but i would support it.
any mesmer ele or necro worth their salt could degen anyone... the problem with the touch ranger is their ability to do alot of damage and heal at the same time with almost 0 skills to stop them. Saying the only way to stop a ranger is to slow them down seems silly to me.
any mesmer ele or necro worth their salt could degen anyone... the problem with the touch ranger is their ability to do alot of damage and heal at the same time with almost 0 skills to stop them. Saying the only way to stop a ranger is to slow them down seems silly to me.
Nevin
They're not over powered though... Cripple + Degen and they're dead before they know it.
dansamy
Quote:
| necro worth their salt can simply degen you to death |
About 20 minutes in, they started /resign'ing. It was interesting to see touch rangers in GvG.
makosi
Gargle Blaster's point is being evaded. Nobody said touch rangers were overpowered but the language is wrong in the Expertise or there was an oversight with these touch skills. Expertise says: "Attack skills" and not "skills" so it is definitely some sort of error.
lightblade
Touch Rangers are very vulnerable to energy denial, because the only way for them to regain energy is from OoB, and they need to sac 20% for it. Very often for inexperienced players, that will kill them.
Raiin Maker
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lightblade
Touch Rangers are very vulnerable to energy denial, because the only way for them to regain energy is from OoB, and they need to sac 20% for it. Very often for inexperienced players, that will kill them.
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Celeborn
Me and my guild were playing some kind of touch ranger spike (think its called Forest or summin) in HA recently, works well but you can run low on energy easily, and with Awaken OoB hurts.
I don't think the skills need to be changed at all, theirs nothing wrong with them.
I don't think the skills need to be changed at all, theirs nothing wrong with them.
Daxime
Well since ANet added Vampiric Bite. they can now spam Vampiric Touch/Bite to keep their HP up. I can't believe ANet couldn't see this coming when they decided to add this duplicate skill. Touch Rangers seem to be extremely popular in Alliance Battles now since they have such high damage output and high survivability. I remember I encountered very few Touch Rangers back in FPE weekend.
samifly
Expertise is supposed to cover all skills. its not a bug, and you would be essentially nerfing rangers as a whole if you were to change it.
wren e
Touch rangers are not overpowered and deserving of the nerfbat IMHO. They are easily countered and are limited in what they can do. Granted, when first going against one they may seem "pwnage" but they are fragile. A couple of counters are as follows:
energy deny
diversion
interrupt
cripple/ward against foes/slow hexes
degen
or my favorite....kiting
Basically anything that is going to effect casters is going to effect a Touch ranger. I for one am happy to see new builds using some of the double skills, makes it worth having them and opening up options.
energy deny
diversion
interrupt
cripple/ward against foes/slow hexes
degen
or my favorite....kiting
Basically anything that is going to effect casters is going to effect a Touch ranger. I for one am happy to see new builds using some of the double skills, makes it worth having them and opening up options.
MCS
Bring wild blow and be like STFU STFU STFU STFU USE YOUR STANCE WHAT WHAT WHAT OWNED.
Anyway... I've never seen them in gvg in random arenas and team arenas they're just funny as you save them for last and then take like 3 mins to kill them.
Anyway... I've never seen them in gvg in random arenas and team arenas they're just funny as you save them for last and then take like 3 mins to kill them.
Navaros
Why is it that any time anything new that doesn't completely suck comes out, there are mass cries for it to be nerfed.
Anet already way over-nerfed way too many things. Let's stop the nerfing.
Touch rangers are fine as is. Touching someone is hard, unless they are going to stand still and let you in which case they deserve to die.
Don't nerf Touch rangers.
Anet already way over-nerfed way too many things. Let's stop the nerfing.
Touch rangers are fine as is. Touching someone is hard, unless they are going to stand still and let you in which case they deserve to die.
Don't nerf Touch rangers.
BrotherGilburt
Why nerf it? Vamp Touch, Vamp Bite builds are completely fair and within game limits. There not invincible either.
Brother Gilburt
Brother Gilburt
Terra Xin
Actually, i dont know why people don't call them Vampires... seems like a more legitimate name for them
oh
/notsigned. Though there are no direct counters to the actual skillls other than knockdowns and interrupts, a typical R/N cant defend against magic for beans.
And to the confusion, all skills are skills. Anything that has the word "skill", is a "skill". If it doesnt have "skill" then it is not primarily classed as "skill", but it is still a skill. Note: "Skill" and skill are two different things...^^
oh
/notsigned. Though there are no direct counters to the actual skillls other than knockdowns and interrupts, a typical R/N cant defend against magic for beans.
And to the confusion, all skills are skills. Anything that has the word "skill", is a "skill". If it doesnt have "skill" then it is not primarily classed as "skill", but it is still a skill. Note: "Skill" and skill are two different things...^^
Tainek
Diversion+ even the lightest touch of e-denial > touch rangers
Kiting +degen> touch rangers
i dont see anything wrong with them
Kiting +degen> touch rangers
i dont see anything wrong with them
Gargle Blaster
Wow, yall should chill about the word nerf (perhaps i should have called this a ele/mesmer buff)... Yall have adverse reactions to the word "nerf" I am not suggesting to nerf the build by lowering DPS or by changing any energy managment(Expertise still works with attack skills)... i think its a good build. i am only suggesting to make them attack skills... think about it -- if a blind warrior cant hit you with a hammer why should a necro be able to touch you with less range?
Daxime
I'm not sure why some of you guys say interrupts is a counter to touch rangers. I don't know how many people can consistently interrupt a 3/4 attack speed attack. It's like saying interupts is a counter to Quickshot rangers.
I do like that suggestion actually. after all, it's a lot harder to touch someone with your hand than to swing a 5 foot sword at them. if you're blind, it should be even harder to touch them.
I do like that suggestion actually. after all, it's a lot harder to touch someone with your hand than to swing a 5 foot sword at them. if you're blind, it should be even harder to touch them.
fiery
Got hit by 8 ranger/necros in GVG. All touchers.
lyra_song
The necro's touch skills are not attacks. They are not spells either.
They are simply skills (like Contemplation of Purity)
This means: You cant use evasion, blindness, or spell based interrupts.
Best thing to do: E-denial, Snares, Diversion/Blackout, Massive Degen
They are annoying, very annoying, but they dont deserve a nerf.
They are simply skills (like Contemplation of Purity)
This means: You cant use evasion, blindness, or spell based interrupts.
Best thing to do: E-denial, Snares, Diversion/Blackout, Massive Degen
They are annoying, very annoying, but they dont deserve a nerf.
Gargle Blaster
lyra,
i understand that they are currently just "skills". What i don't understand is why.
i think if a skill does direct damage to a target it should be considered an attack skill. -as i have said before...
i understand that they are currently just "skills". What i don't understand is why.
i think if a skill does direct damage to a target it should be considered an attack skill. -as i have said before...
samifly
A attack skill always involves a weapon of some sort...
Mr Slashalot
whats the point in nerfing it, the only thing that will happen is people will move on to the next build and when thats nerf Ect... Ect...
TheLordOfBlah
Extremely EASY to counter. I'm not going into detail as it has been explained above. Leave the skills alone.
TGgold
Ok, there actually is somewhat a reason for this I think.
Does anyone here play anything using the d20 system? When using a touch spell there, it counts as a touch attack: this negates the targets Armor and natural Armor bonus, making it almost impossible to miss at a decent level. Maybe ANET wanted to carry out the whole "it's pretty easy to touch something" as opposed to actually striking them precisely with a weapon. For all we know, R/Ns just lunge around hoping to hit something :P
Does anyone here play anything using the d20 system? When using a touch spell there, it counts as a touch attack: this negates the targets Armor and natural Armor bonus, making it almost impossible to miss at a decent level. Maybe ANET wanted to carry out the whole "it's pretty easy to touch something" as opposed to actually striking them precisely with a weapon. For all we know, R/Ns just lunge around hoping to hit something :P
Terra Xin
No. If you applied blindness to these skills, some idiot is going to come along and try to nerf ele spells, because they can still target players even though they cant see them.
Concept wise? The necromancers touch attacks do not cause physical damage. Vile touch for example can be considered as a skill used by a person with a very poisonous or acidic touch, so much in fact that it causes damage. It's not an attack skill because youre not using your hand to impale your target and cause damage that way.
Perhaps, if you wanted to nerf it, you're better off increasing the activation time more than anything.
Concept wise? The necromancers touch attacks do not cause physical damage. Vile touch for example can be considered as a skill used by a person with a very poisonous or acidic touch, so much in fact that it causes damage. It's not an attack skill because youre not using your hand to impale your target and cause damage that way.
Perhaps, if you wanted to nerf it, you're better off increasing the activation time more than anything.
makosi
These touches should be all be spells.
kryshnysh
I think Terra Xin (especially on blindness) and TGgold have most of the valid points.
Empathy is meant to deal damage to you if you hit someone with an attack. It doesn't work for spells, it doesn't work for touch skills. The damage from the attack isn't how hard you hit them (or how/where you hit them, etc.) as it would be with an axe, sword, even wand or staff. Instead the damage comes from some sort of energy (or something similar) that is discharged into them. Thus different from an attack, and thus unaffected by empathy, etc.
You can make an argument that they are no worse than a wand/staff/rod and depending on how we view them, we can disagree on that. You can also argue the wand/staff/rod is more susceptible to empathy. Since either way works, I would say go with whether the game mechanic change would be a balancing or unbalancing "nerf." Personally, I can't see how it would be balancing, and I prefer to see them as less physically malicious than any attack, so I can't see empathy working on touch skills.
Empathy is meant to deal damage to you if you hit someone with an attack. It doesn't work for spells, it doesn't work for touch skills. The damage from the attack isn't how hard you hit them (or how/where you hit them, etc.) as it would be with an axe, sword, even wand or staff. Instead the damage comes from some sort of energy (or something similar) that is discharged into them. Thus different from an attack, and thus unaffected by empathy, etc.
You can make an argument that they are no worse than a wand/staff/rod and depending on how we view them, we can disagree on that. You can also argue the wand/staff/rod is more susceptible to empathy. Since either way works, I would say go with whether the game mechanic change would be a balancing or unbalancing "nerf." Personally, I can't see how it would be balancing, and I prefer to see them as less physically malicious than any attack, so I can't see empathy working on touch skills.
lyra_song
Quote:
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Originally Posted by makosi
These touches should be all be spells.
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I think that all the offensive touch skills are skills for a simple reason.
Touching requires you to be in melee range. This is a very big weakness.
Jiao Yang
Touch ranger teams are easy to beat.. there is no reason to nerf them. Like IWAY, the only thing they are good for is clearing out the bad teams- most wont get to halls or any other top map without a skip.
BahamutKaiser
This is a necro skill, and wile it can be used and perhaps abused by classes with decent melee capabilities, for necromancer, going into melee fray with their given armor and using the lesser energy they have is much more dangerous and less effective then rangers, the last thing they need is for their spell based abilities to be subject to attack weaknesses.
And if they are so strong that you wish for a counter, then use the ones we already have, Backfire, Soul leach, and a multitude of disabling and interrupting skills, this already has a counter acceptable for its class, it doesn't need to be changed in order to suit the effect as a secondary on another class.
And if they are so strong that you wish for a counter, then use the ones we already have, Backfire, Soul leach, and a multitude of disabling and interrupting skills, this already has a counter acceptable for its class, it doesn't need to be changed in order to suit the effect as a secondary on another class.
Zui
Bahmut, backfire and soul leech only work on "spells". Touch skills are just that, "skills".
However, there is absolutely no reason to nerf touch rangers. They might own in RA, but that's about it. In TA/HA/GvG you rarely see them, and when you do they simply beat the absolutly horrible teams that would have lost regardless of the team they faced. All you really have to do to beat them is attack the same target, and have the person who they're on kite. Two purely tactical counters, that you should actualy be doing anyway if you deserve to win. In addition to that you have diversion(and can manage to get a skill they're madly spamming...), energy denial... All of which totaly can shut touch rangers down, even more so than just kiting them. Then you have snares... Which makes kiting them even easier, and can reduce thier damage output/self healing to nothing.
Let's face it, touch rangers are plain bad. They're in the same general group as "IWAY", "FLAREWAY", and "VIMWAY." Beating bad teams, and beating them hard and fast. I wonder when someone will make a gimmick HA build with them and call it "TOUCHWAY"...
However, there is absolutely no reason to nerf touch rangers. They might own in RA, but that's about it. In TA/HA/GvG you rarely see them, and when you do they simply beat the absolutly horrible teams that would have lost regardless of the team they faced. All you really have to do to beat them is attack the same target, and have the person who they're on kite. Two purely tactical counters, that you should actualy be doing anyway if you deserve to win. In addition to that you have diversion(and can manage to get a skill they're madly spamming...), energy denial... All of which totaly can shut touch rangers down, even more so than just kiting them. Then you have snares... Which makes kiting them even easier, and can reduce thier damage output/self healing to nothing.
Let's face it, touch rangers are plain bad. They're in the same general group as "IWAY", "FLAREWAY", and "VIMWAY." Beating bad teams, and beating them hard and fast. I wonder when someone will make a gimmick HA build with them and call it "TOUCHWAY"...
Iraqalypse Now
heres an idea of how to beat a touch ranger: sic two touch rangers on him.