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Originally Posted by fiery
Got hit by 8 ranger/necros in GVG. All touchers.
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Touch Ranger Nerf Idea
Chicken Ftw
Molotovich
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Originally Posted by BrotherGilburt
Why nerf it? Vamp Touch, Vamp Bite builds are completely fair and within game limits. There not invincible either.
Brother Gilburt |
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Originally Posted by Fiery
Got hit by 8 ranger/necros in GVG. All touchers.
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My assasin basically uses a touch skill (Plague Touch) but thats about it, I prefer to snare and kill and play ping pong with a W/N and plague touch.
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Originally Posted by Iraqalypse Now
heres an idea of how to beat a touch ranger: sic two touch rangers on him.
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julienp
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Originally Posted by Daxime
I'm not sure why some of you guys say interrupts is a counter to touch rangers. I don't know how many people can consistently interrupt a 3/4 attack speed attack. It's like saying interupts is a counter to Quickshot rangers.
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Priest Of Sin
Ultra-mega-mega touch ranger nerf idea:
All touch spells cause massive exhaustion.
All touch spells cause massive exhaustion.
Chicken Ftw
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Originally Posted by Molotovich
apparently someone that hasnt been on the receiving end of a touch ranger that needs at least 4 people to be killed when you aren't a caster...
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| Fight fire with gasoline?? the problem is that touch rangers builds are getting ABUSED and overused on Alliance Battles. and is a waste of time and energy to kill one (u need at least 3 people to actually kill one of those guys) |
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Originally Posted by Priest Of Sin
Ultra-mega-mega touch ranger nerf idea:
All touch spells cause massive exhaustion. |
Jessyi
What they ought to do is simply delete all the skill duplicates. Unless I'm missing someting critical here, it seems like the more intelligent way to make Factions a stand-alone game would have been to simply make the core skills (that ANet wanted to make available to them) available to them! Hot diggety damn!
If Vamp Touch = Prophesies, and
If Vamp Bite = Factions, and
If Vamp Touch = Vamp Bite...
Why not simply make Vamp Touch available in Factions (instead of basically building in a free Elite Echo for these builds)? I MUST be missing something, because I'd like to believe there's a good reason for this blatant stupidity. Feel free to fill me in.
-Jessyi
If Vamp Touch = Prophesies, and
If Vamp Bite = Factions, and
If Vamp Touch = Vamp Bite...
Why not simply make Vamp Touch available in Factions (instead of basically building in a free Elite Echo for these builds)? I MUST be missing something, because I'd like to believe there's a good reason for this blatant stupidity. Feel free to fill me in.
-Jessyi
Terra Xin
3 people.... to kill a touch ranger... ok... someone wake this person up
A/Mo with knockdowns
Any W/X with Wild Blow
Any Ele who knows how to kite
E-Denial Mesmer with mind wrack
Degen Mesmers/Necros who know how to kite
Trapper Ranger with barbed trap minimum.
R/N have no hex removals....
Everything except for the first one (which is my own special build against them^^) are commonly used. 3 people? hah!
A/Mo with knockdowns
Any W/X with Wild Blow
Any Ele who knows how to kite
E-Denial Mesmer with mind wrack
Degen Mesmers/Necros who know how to kite
Trapper Ranger with barbed trap minimum.
R/N have no hex removals....
Everything except for the first one (which is my own special build against them^^) are commonly used. 3 people? hah!
saneo
this arguing reminds me a lot about the iway threads...
Stabber
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Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster
i think if a skill does direct damage to a target it should be considered an attack skill. -as i have said before...
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Gargle Blaster
if it walks like a duck...
Jessyi
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Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster
if it walks like a duck...
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Stabber
If a skill does not do damage, why should it be an attack skill? Perhaps the two of you should try to piece two and two together.
Dr Strangelove
Meh, they're really not that overpowered. They have no way of countering enemy healing, the slightest touch of monkage and that ncie high DPS is irrelevant. They have no effective way of healing themselves unless they are actively touching someone... so snare them or edenial them. Defensively, most just have whirling D, which is up 20 out of 60 seconds or so, leaving a big window where they're essentially a squishy in front line combat. Vamp bite certainly makes them better than they were when they alternated vamp touch and touch of agony, but they're hardly invincible. People are just upset because the almighty wammo is worthless against them.
EDIT: Can you name an attack skill that doesn't use a weapon? Maybe there's a reason for that...
EDIT: Can you name an attack skill that doesn't use a weapon? Maybe there's a reason for that...
Zhou Feng
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Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster
changing them to spells seems a bit extreme of a nerf to me.. but i would support it.
any mesmer ele or necro worth their salt could degen anyone... the problem with the touch ranger is their ability to do alot of damage and heal at the same time with almost 0 skills to stop them. Saying the only way to stop a ranger is to slow them down seems silly to me. |
/not signed
sh4ft3d
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Originally Posted by makosi
Gargle Blaster's point is being evaded. Nobody said touch rangers were overpowered but the language is wrong in the Expertise or there was an oversight with these touch skills. Expertise says: "Attack skills" and not "skills" so it is definitely some sort of error.
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Robin_Anadri
Whining about touch rangers = Person got pwnt by touch rangers and can't be bothered to learn simple counters to glass cannons.
Sheesh, people. I play touch ranger in PVE, because it's *fun*. Any decent PVP team can handle any of the glass cannon builds, or they don't deserve to win.
Sheesh, people. I play touch ranger in PVE, because it's *fun*. Any decent PVP team can handle any of the glass cannon builds, or they don't deserve to win.
makosi
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Originally Posted by sh4ft3d
Actually, it works for "skills" which is why people trap. Without it you'd need an ele for trapping -.-
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I whine about technicalities
Gargle Blaster
e-denial + snare and degen will stop ANY build. We are being forced to use a cookie cutter build to balance a creative build. 
That being said -- let me point out that I use a cookie cutter build, but i feel bad about this... 
That being said -- let me point out that I use a cookie cutter build, but i feel bad about this...
flamingmarmo
Simple idea, change vampiric touch/bite so rather than life steal it deal x damge and you gain x health(x being the same), this meanss that it will be affected by armour and trigger prot spells like rof and prot spirit. Maybe even up the damage to compensate for lost damage from armour. Touchers have been around for ages it is the addition of the duplicates like bite that have caused masses of them.
Mai
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Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri
Whining about touch rangers = Person got pwnt by touch rangers and can't be bothered to learn simple counters to glass cannons.
Sheesh, people. I play touch ranger in PVE, because it's *fun*. Any decent PVP team can handle any of the glass cannon builds, or they don't deserve to win. |
If your team cant figure out that you can just...you know...kite or deal with a touch ranger then yeah you deserve to lose. Touchers have been around for a while so it's not really a new build.
And since when did ppl take alliance battles seriously? o.o
Stabber
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Originally Posted by makosi
Traps are excused from my argument because Expertise says: "attack skills, traps and preparations". Vamp Touch and Bite are 'skills' therefore Expertise shouldn't include them.
I whine about technicalities |
Now it turns out (derived by experimentation) that the precise and complete description would be "reduce the cost of all skills that are not spells". But there is no requirement for the description of attributes to be precise and complete. For instance, the description of Expertise gives no indication of the odd breakpoints that arise as a result of rounding. Neither does the description of Fast Casting give any indication of the exponential decay function it uses. Neither do weapon mastery attributes give any indication of the probabilities of critical hits. The list goes on. These descriptions are meant as a quick and rough guide, not a detailed users' manual.
Sab
As for nerfing touch rangers, they're only "overpowered" in RA, where people rarely have the appropriate counters. I should point out that there are far fewer counters to touchers than there are for other classes - caster shutdown doesn't work, warrior shutdown does little, conditions will be Plague Touched back, and any form of direct damage will just be outhealed.
I'm guessing the touch skills may be nerfed simply on that basis - that they are technically harder to counter than other classes. Personally I don't mind either way, they seem to enjoy touching through my Diversion.
I'm guessing the touch skills may be nerfed simply on that basis - that they are technically harder to counter than other classes. Personally I don't mind either way, they seem to enjoy touching through my Diversion.
NatalieD
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Originally Posted by LuxA
While we're arguing technicalities, Smite (Monk skill) is an "attack" which doesn't require a weapon.
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Numa Pompilius
Guys...
1) Noone has suggested that touch rangers are overpowered.
2) It is _completely irrelevant_ that touch rangers can be countered.
3) The whole issue is if...
-- hitting someone with your hand or biting someone is either easier than hitting someone with a sword, and
-- hitting someone with your hand or biting someone is an attack or not.
The OP is simply stating that he feels that it's no easier to bite/hit someone when you're blind than it is to hit someone with a sword while blind, and that he feels that hitting someone with your hand or biting someone is an attack.
1) Noone has suggested that touch rangers are overpowered.
2) It is _completely irrelevant_ that touch rangers can be countered.
3) The whole issue is if...
-- hitting someone with your hand or biting someone is either easier than hitting someone with a sword, and
-- hitting someone with your hand or biting someone is an attack or not.
The OP is simply stating that he feels that it's no easier to bite/hit someone when you're blind than it is to hit someone with a sword while blind, and that he feels that hitting someone with your hand or biting someone is an attack.
Sab
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Originally Posted by NatalieD
That's, um, not actually true. Smite requires a weapon.
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Stabber
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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius
The OP is simply stating that he feels that it's no easier to bite/hit someone when you're blind than it is to hit someone with a sword while blind, and that he feels that hitting someone with your hand or biting someone is an attack.
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Incidentally, I am curious what he thinks about Palm Strike. It is a skill that counts as an Off-Hand Attack and ignores blindness.
NatalieD
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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius
Guys...
1) Noone has suggested that touch rangers are overpowered. |
And isn't proposing a nerf in itself an implicit accusation of overpoweredness? I mean, if something is balanced, why on earth would anyone want to make it weaker?
Priest Of Sin
pshh, touch NECROS for the win. They pwn touch rangers in the FACE.
That aside, I do not believe that this is overpowered. It is only overpowered in 12v12 when there are two teams of touch rangers are holding a spot. But then you just get the ele to do some hardcore nuking and kiting.
That aside, I do not believe that this is overpowered. It is only overpowered in 12v12 when there are two teams of touch rangers are holding a spot. But then you just get the ele to do some hardcore nuking and kiting.
Gargle Blaster
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Originally Posted by Stabber
Incidentally, I am curious what he thinks about Palm Strike. It is a skill that counts as an Off-Hand Attack and ignores blindness.
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Side thought: You could then add poison to your bite ...adding more variation to the touch ranger builds
StrongBow
Nerf? no
Fix? Yes and i think expertise is bugged not "Touch skills"
Second, Necro Touch skills are unconditional damage, which means they bypass the armor and other Dmg reduce attributes. This is the main issue arises because a ranger with a fairly high expertise and SQ up can spam these skill much more then a necro can.
Third: Touch skills are not Melee/Ranged/Attack Skills thus should be treated out of Rangers Expertise attribute.
Fix? Yes and i think expertise is bugged not "Touch skills"
Second, Necro Touch skills are unconditional damage, which means they bypass the armor and other Dmg reduce attributes. This is the main issue arises because a ranger with a fairly high expertise and SQ up can spam these skill much more then a necro can.
Third: Touch skills are not Melee/Ranged/Attack Skills thus should be treated out of Rangers Expertise attribute.
Nanii
Enough with the nerf already, let them be. Whats next, nerf all Faction content just coz "some" people thinks its to hard? Come on guys. AoE was enough. Play the game and be happy with it or change.
Stabber
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Originally Posted by StrongBow
Second, Necro Touch skills are unconditional damage, which means they bypass the armor and other Dmg reduce attributes. This is the main issue arises because a ranger with a fairly high expertise and SQ up can spam these skill much more then a necro can.
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Does it get reduced by Prot Spirit?
No?
Then it ain't damage.
Wrap your brain around this simple concept please.
lyra_song
Ive dealt with touch rangers in PvP.
In alliance battle, i met a whole team (4) of them. They were quite a pain for my interrupt ranger to deal with.
Stop with the nerfing.
StrongBow: Its a GOOD combo. Its great synergy between two different professions and a perfect example of how a good build can become more powerful with copy skills (Vamp Bite/Touch).
Making touch skills Non-expertise affected would not NERF, it would effectively DESTROY this build completely. They didn't even do that to IWAY. They weakened it, but they didnt kill it like what you are proposing to the Touch Rangers.
In alliance battle, i met a whole team (4) of them. They were quite a pain for my interrupt ranger to deal with.
Stop with the nerfing.
StrongBow: Its a GOOD combo. Its great synergy between two different professions and a perfect example of how a good build can become more powerful with copy skills (Vamp Bite/Touch).
Making touch skills Non-expertise affected would not NERF, it would effectively DESTROY this build completely. They didn't even do that to IWAY. They weakened it, but they didnt kill it like what you are proposing to the Touch Rangers.
Gargle Blaster
Please, people(nanii) lets talk about the ideas in the thread rather than the word nerf...
Stabber, i guess i dont understand where you are comming from... you are pointing out that protective spirit has no effect in balancing these skills. This seems to be more of a reason to limit the touch ranger / damage skills. while you are right about how the game currently deals with this damage(a rose by any other name...) i am suggesting a change.
Stabber, i guess i dont understand where you are comming from... you are pointing out that protective spirit has no effect in balancing these skills. This seems to be more of a reason to limit the touch ranger / damage skills. while you are right about how the game currently deals with this damage(a rose by any other name...) i am suggesting a change.
Cyril Aspect
you are suggesting a change that is a complete waste of effort.
the game mechanics work like so. there is really only one reason to change them and that is balance.
since touch rangers are not in need of balance I see no reaosn to waste developer effort to modify wha tis essentiallly a rules technicality based on your very particular interpretation of the wording of things
this is made even more amusing by the fact that almsot no descriptions of skill effects or attribute effects in GW really tell you what they do or what they effect.
this game is so poorly descirbed that testing is th eonly way we know that life stealing isn't dmg etc etc.
how the engine handles htings is the final word and descriptions on skills have little to no relevance.
if anyhting you might argue that the descriptions should be more precise.
or if you really want to pursue such literalmindedness then why is it when you run away sometimes my touch triggers on you when there is a 2 or 3 foot gap between my opponent and I? I mean really how dare they clearly it should not work as it is only touch range!
if this is all you have to complain about then the game is in good shape.
the game mechanics work like so. there is really only one reason to change them and that is balance.
since touch rangers are not in need of balance I see no reaosn to waste developer effort to modify wha tis essentiallly a rules technicality based on your very particular interpretation of the wording of things
this is made even more amusing by the fact that almsot no descriptions of skill effects or attribute effects in GW really tell you what they do or what they effect.
this game is so poorly descirbed that testing is th eonly way we know that life stealing isn't dmg etc etc.
how the engine handles htings is the final word and descriptions on skills have little to no relevance.
if anyhting you might argue that the descriptions should be more precise.
or if you really want to pursue such literalmindedness then why is it when you run away sometimes my touch triggers on you when there is a 2 or 3 foot gap between my opponent and I? I mean really how dare they clearly it should not work as it is only touch range!
if this is all you have to complain about then the game is in good shape.
samifly
Lifestealing is not a form of damage. Things that prevent damage do not prevent life stealing. If you change this - 55 monks would be waaaay overpowered.
makosi
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Originally Posted by Stabber
Reducing the cost of Shouts, for example, is consistent with the in-game description of Expertise.
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Originally Posted by Stabber
Now it turns out (derived by experimentation) that the precise and complete description would be "reduce the cost of all skills that are not spells". But there is no requirement for the description of attributes to be precise and complete. For instance, the description of Expertise gives no indication of the odd breakpoints that arise as a result of rounding. Neither does the description of Fast Casting give any indication of the exponential decay function it uses. Neither do weapon mastery attributes give any indication of the probabilities of critical hits. The list goes on. These descriptions are meant as a quick and rough guide, not a detailed users' manual.
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Anyway the subject being disscussed is about which skills are affected by the benefits of the expertise, not the actual effect it has. For example (let's say Fast Casting) reduces the casting time of spells - its a black or white situation. If its a spell, it will be activated quicker, if its not a spell, Fast Casting won't affect it whatsoever. Expertise reduces the energy cost of traps, preparations and attack skills - those vampiric touches aren't classified as 'attack skills' therefore the touch ranger idea is an exploitation because they are gaining a benefit where they are not supposed to be. Again, looking at fast casting: suppose a Me/W with an axe was receiving the Fast Cast benefit from axe attacks. They'd be spamming extremely fast axe attacks and dicing up whatever came across them.
Lex Talionis
Touch rangers are easy to kill. I laugh everytime i kill a team of 4 in team arenas. The humorous part is when they all curse out the team that beats them so fast ppl just aren't original anymore
ppl just aren't original anymore
Gargle Blaster
Cryil, i am going to quote your entire post and respond to all of it as i think you are missing my points... please read my previous posts.
Yes, this may be true... but i am not the only one posting in this thread.
balance is what im looking for...
Balance is what this thread is all about... im looking for reasons for why you think necros should be able to touch you when they are blind... i really dont care about the wording as much as i would like to see these skills to be affected by things like empathy (which i think is reasonable as these skills do lower your health).
yes i must agree with you here the game can be difficult to understand... but that is another thread.
ok i want this "damage" stuphs out of this thread now. i dont care what you call life stealing... it lowers your health and is damage of some sort. (duck, rose, spade, whatever) Protective Spirit is a red herring. It don't matter what kind of damage is being done with touch skills -- it matters that blind should stop it.
true, words don't matter... what really counts is how the game works.
yes but like you said the words dont really matter... i was suggesting that they be considered "attack skills" so that things like blind would stop them... i am not trying to clarify the wording of the skills as well i dont care... i am not good with words... and that would be a different thread.
well for the most part i dont care about this...
BTW: i have noticed this as well... it seems to happen as when a person is in range you can trigger your skill to start casting.... however in the casting time people can move - but its to late as the skill was already triggered - i notice this alot when i play a spell caster - i can start casting backfire for example while sombody is in range - 3 sec cast - no matter how far away they run i still get the hex on them.
i have and do complain about lots of stuphs... but it dont belong here. and yes i think GW for the most part is in good shape.
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Originally Posted by Cyril Aspect
you are suggesting a change that is a complete waste of effort.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cyril Aspect
the game mechanics work like so. there is really only one reason to change them and that is balance.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cyril Aspect
since touch rangers are not in need of balance I see no reaosn to waste developer effort to modify wha tis essentiallly a rules technicality based on your very particular interpretation of the wording of things
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Originally Posted by Cyril Aspect
this is made even more amusing by the fact that almsot no descriptions of skill effects or attribute effects in GW really tell you what they do or what they effect.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cyril Aspect
this game is so poorly descirbed that testing is th eonly way we know that life stealing isn't dmg etc etc.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cyril Aspect
how the engine handles htings is the final word and descriptions on skills have little to no relevance.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cyril Aspect
if anyhting you might argue that the descriptions should be more precise.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Cyril Aspect
or if you really want to pursue such literalmindedness then why is it when you run away sometimes my touch triggers on you when there is a 2 or 3 foot gap between my opponent and I? I mean really how dare they clearly it should not work as it is only touch range!
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BTW: i have noticed this as well... it seems to happen as when a person is in range you can trigger your skill to start casting.... however in the casting time people can move - but its to late as the skill was already triggered - i notice this alot when i play a spell caster - i can start casting backfire for example while sombody is in range - 3 sec cast - no matter how far away they run i still get the hex on them.
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Originally Posted by Cyril Aspect
if this is all you have to complain about then the game is in good shape.
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floppinghog
seriously, its not in need of nerf, sure its a sort of cheap build if you're dumb enough to let someone kill you with it. but its so energy demanding its called countering. = energy denial = cripple = AoE = knockdowns = plain out spike.
you can only touch so fast and so much you know. with 70 armor vs phy you WILL die.
builds all have counters, its the matter of fairness in a RANDOM arena that your complaining about. random is random, unless i see touch builds plowing HoH i don't see a problem.
you can only touch so fast and so much you know. with 70 armor vs phy you WILL die.
builds all have counters, its the matter of fairness in a RANDOM arena that your complaining about. random is random, unless i see touch builds plowing HoH i don't see a problem.