Alright, my take.
1.) I run from touchers, it is utterly futile to kill them without the appropriate build. And all of my chars have better things to do. So no, I don't stand still and die.
2.) Touch rangers are mildly overpowered, they were not a problem before Factions, but with dulpicated skills they've become more then a simple nuisance. And what about Ch. 3. What if they duplicate skills again. Can you imagine the living hell that would bring if nothing is changed now?
3.) There are other players on the field other then touch rangers. not everyone can build themselves to deal with them. And if you do plan for one and there are none, you've wasted a build. Stop pretending every arena's like another. Alliances Battles are not like HoH, you can't plan for everything. RA's even worse, and TA's almost as bad as RA. (I keep my self in 12v12 for the hope that someone came in with effective e-denial...a vain hope I guarentee)
4.) Just because you're an obsessive know-it-all elitist who only does HoH, and doesn't take 12v12 seriously, doesn't mean others don't. But then, that's always been the elitist problem. They figure anyone who doesn't do what they do is a whiney noob who knows nothing.
5.) How in the hell is the act of sucking the life force from someone and adding it to yours NOT A SPELL? Seriously, magic has to be involved in here somewhere. Screw being attack skills, they should probably be SPELLS.
6.) Counters to degen for the touch ranger, minor but there. For example, Troll Unguent, Life Tranfer (if they're crazy and don't bring Offering), Life Siphon. And all the health they're not keeping though those is being stolen off your team.
7.) I'm gonna say this now. I don't care if you dissagree because even if the imbalence isn't big now, new skills are probably going to make it worse. I'm already aware of the available "counters" and state they aren't good enough. If you think I'm a noob, to bad, your problem. If you can find a more lenient balence as opposed to being attack skills or spells, sure, let's hear it.
Touch Ranger Nerf Idea
Ken Dei
samifly
So should blind stop blackout? or plauge touch? How useless would plauge touch be if it could be blocked by blind. These are the *same* things, essentially as the vamp touch skills.
It does not matter that ones doing damage while the other takes out your enitre skill bar, or gives you a potentially deadly condition. If you nerf these touch skills you would have to nerf all them. Expertise is a whole lot less useful if it doesnt cover the rather small amount of non-spell skills. If everything in this game matched its description, alot of things would be diffrent.
And btw lifestealing != damage. This is an essential fact, that you need to know if you want to use many builds.
Please, for the love of god dont nerf a build that you dont like with a solution that is so broadreaching that they could affect everything from 55 monks to the usefulness of mesmers and the entire class of rangers.
It does not matter that ones doing damage while the other takes out your enitre skill bar, or gives you a potentially deadly condition. If you nerf these touch skills you would have to nerf all them. Expertise is a whole lot less useful if it doesnt cover the rather small amount of non-spell skills. If everything in this game matched its description, alot of things would be diffrent.
And btw lifestealing != damage. This is an essential fact, that you need to know if you want to use many builds.
Please, for the love of god dont nerf a build that you dont like with a solution that is so broadreaching that they could affect everything from 55 monks to the usefulness of mesmers and the entire class of rangers.
samifly
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ken Dei
Alright, my take.
2.) Touch rangers are mildly overpowered, they were not a problem before Factions, but with dulpicated skills they've become more then a simple nuisance. And what about Ch. 3. What if they duplicate skills again. Can you imagine the living hell that would bring if nothing is changed now? 5.) How in the hell is the act of sucking the life force from someone and adding it to yours NOT A SPELL? Seriously, magic has to be involved in here somewhere. Screw being attack skills, they should probably be SPELLS. |
Well I think the whole thing about them costing 15 energy and you have to physically touch them compensates for them being not spells. shock isnt a spell, blackout, plague touch, etc.. seems to be a pretty basic consept, if you have to touch, its not a spell.
Vermilion Okeanos
Although fragile, but considering that majority of the skills in the game has minor to no effect on touch ranger, I must come to the conclusion that it is indeed a broken build.
If they would nerf MM, I see no reason they wouldn't nerf this one.
Personally, I would put a delay on these touch skills, like those of PBAoE and conjure nightmare's 1.75 sec delay.
If they would nerf MM, I see no reason they wouldn't nerf this one.
Personally, I would put a delay on these touch skills, like those of PBAoE and conjure nightmare's 1.75 sec delay.
The Real Roy Keane
The only place in the game the touch ranger comes even remotely close to being overpowered is in RA, so it's not really in need of a nerf at all.
Molotovich
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mai
Quoted for truth
If your team cant figure out that you can just...you know...kite or deal with a touch ranger then yeah you deserve to lose. Touchers have been around for a while so it's not really a new build. And since when did ppl take alliance battles seriously? o.o |
And about teams without a caster, well... Assasins arent very loved ja?
Dont you believe me? go to unwaking waters with one and try to get a team (NOT MAKING IT, getting into one), same goes for alliance battles (not the random ones, the saltspray beach sort of)
But well... running like chicken from a thing that only "touches" you sounds like the most stupid idea i ever heard, and in battle i have seen that those guys only fall down to 3 or more people (i had a tounch ranger in my team once, thats what was required to take him down... all the time)
Chicken Ftw
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Molotovich
When you need to farm faction seriously and dont have the time to wait 20 minutes in aspenwood or jade quarry?
But well... running like chicken from a thing that only "touches" you sounds like the most stupid idea i ever heard, and in battle i have seen that those guys only fall down to 3 or more people (i had a tounch ranger in my team once, thats what was required to take him down... all the time) |
I'm tired of hearing that touch rangers only fall to 3 people. As someone who's played one, I'm aware of the weaknesses and strengths. Sure, your W/Mo isn't likely to take one down, no. But then, warrior vs ranger has never been a fair fight. Anyone who knows how to kite ruins a touch ranger's day. This "running away to fight something is stupid" argument is just dumb. So your ele's gonna stand toe to toe with that angry warrior? What about that bunny thumper? Didn't think so. Kiting's a legitimate strategy against any melee class, which touch rangers happen to fall under.
Nivryx
i say just take out vampric touch. before the release of chapter two (and clone spells) i was able to run a successful touch build without the clone skill. ever since factions though, i have seen an increase in touch rangers and its rather annoying to see so many giving touch rangers a bad name since even a build with just vampiric touch & bite can be highly successful now due to people trying to counter it when you run up to them with whirling defense, ineptitude, empathy, throw dirt, and other useless skills. so far the only single skill encounter's that have been used against me are diversion (mesmer) and distracting shot (ranger), both of which still failed since i had whirling defense while fighting the ranger and when diversion was cast on me i simply used storm chaser to avoid it affecting touch/bite. I myself started fearing the nerf once factions came out, and again every time i am able to ace an entire team...which has become greatly easier to do in random arena with the clone skill present.
/signed
/signed
Chicken Ftw
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Nivryx
i say just take out vampric touch. before the release of chapter two (and clone spells) i was able to run a successful touch build without the clone skill. ever since factions though, i have seen an increase in touch rangers and its rather annoying to see so many giving touch rangers a bad name since even a build with just vampiric touch & bite can be highly successful now due to people trying to counter it when you run up to them with whirling defense, ineptitude, empathy, throw dirt, and other useless skills. so far the only single skill encounter's that have been used against me are diversion (mesmer) and distracting shot (ranger), both of which still failed since i had whirling defense while fighting the ranger and when diversion was cast on me i simply used storm chaser to avoid it affecting touch/bite. I myself started fearing the nerf once factions came out, and again every time i am able to ace an entire team...which has become greatly easier to do in random arena with the clone skill present.
/signed |
Priest Of Sin
Again, the solution is the elementalist. It goes alone the same principle as FoW. Knock things on their butt, they can't do a whole lot. And if a single touch ranger is after you, run like a headless chicken untill you find a big, strong, hammer warrior to kill it.
Cyril Aspect
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Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster
Cryil, i am going to quote your entire post and respond to all of it as i think you are missing my points... please read my previous posts.
balance is what im looking for... Balance is what this thread is all about... im looking for reasons for why you think necros should be able to touch you when they are blind... i really dont care about the wording as much as i would like to see these skills to be affected by things like empathy (which i think is reasonable as these skills do lower your health). . |
ok this is exactly the point I am making, touch rangers are not regardless of the oddity of function or incosistency of game mechanics labels overpowered.
they are not in need of balanceing, you are not after balance you wish for accuracy in skill type and naming conventions which also have rule changes with them.
the whole point is that you are aksing to have somehting balanced which is perfectly in line and in fact a little under the power of many other builds.
it does not matter how the mechanics work exactly, so long as there is no potential for the combinaiton to become overwhelmingly dominant due to it being more efficient than all other types of builds.
this is the very opposite of the touch ranger. it is at best a silly gimmick build and won't do much of anyhting another class can't do better
making warrior hate (even some of it) have effects on it would end it completely and remove what little amusement there is in running it.
in short as I said before nothing and I do mean nothing requires modifying the rules if it is still within the acceptable range for offense and defense.
StrongBow
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Stabber
For the Nth freaking time: life stealing is not damage!
Does it get reduced by Prot Spirit? No? Then it ain't damage. Wrap your brain around this simple concept please. |
Thanks for correcting me!
And oh, next time try to be polite when replying or quoting people, i know what life stealing is!
CC
SB
The Son Of Morgoth
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Navaros
Why is it that any time anything new that doesn't completely suck comes out, there are mass cries for it to be nerfed.
Anet already way over-nerfed way too many things. Let's stop the nerfing. Touch rangers are fine as is. Touching someone is hard, unless they are going to stand still and let you in which case they deserve to die. Don't nerf Touch rangers. |
I couldn't have said it better myself....why is it that everytime a "god like" build comes out people want to nerf it? All builds have their counters so if you are getting pissed at so many people running this build then why dont you just run its counter all the time. If the build takes less "skill" dont complain...why must every build take skill and who is the one who defines what skill is anyway. If you dont like simple run the "complex" builds yourself dont care about someone elses build...If they are beating you with a simple build against your complex build...maybe that simple build is just better or is in better hands. STOP COMPLAINING.
Gargle Blaster
yes i understand yall hate "nerfs" --please argue the issues.
Cyril Aspect, i had more in my post than what you quoted. please (re-)read all of my post(s) -- that would be great. m yeah.
Cyril Aspect, i had more in my post than what you quoted. please (re-)read all of my post(s) -- that would be great. m yeah.
lyra_song
The only thing i am signing is a rewrite of the description to Expertise so its more clear that it covers everythign except Spells, Enchantments and Hexes.
Cyril Aspect
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster
yes i understand yall hate "nerfs" --please argue the issues.
Cyril Aspect, i had more in my post than what you quoted. please (re-)read all of my post(s) -- that would be great. m yeah. |
this whole discussion is absurd no touch ranger does sufficent dmg to kill anything if a single monk is present and RA is never ever ever a place to show imbalance.
one last thing. we all don't hate nerfs we hate it when they aren't even remotely necessary and people call for them anyway.
makosi
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
The only thing i am signing is a rewrite of the description to Expertise so its more clear that it covers everythign except Spells, Enchantments and Hexes.
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samifly
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
The only thing i am signing is a rewrite of the description to Expertise so its more clear that it covers everythign except Spells, Enchantments and Hexes.
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get cha
For my 2 cents, touch rangers are way too overpowered now. They even got wallow's bite which is another skill in the blood att line. You cant use skills like backfire or guilt cuz R/N use mostly all "skills", not "spells". and the 3/4 cast is incredibly hard to distract. Again, cuz they're "skills" theres no way to make the cast longer. "Spells", yes. "Attacks", yes. "Skills", nope.
Best I can really hope for in a lot of situations is to get one of the vamp touches with diversion.
And since they also use stances to avoid getting hit, why is wild blow the only thing that stops stances? Correct me if im wrong about that.
Best I can really hope for in a lot of situations is to get one of the vamp touches with diversion.
And since they also use stances to avoid getting hit, why is wild blow the only thing that stops stances? Correct me if im wrong about that.
Undivine
Quote:
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Originally Posted by get cha
And since they also use stances to avoid getting hit, why is wild blow the only thing that stops stances? Correct me if im wrong about that.
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Yanman.be
Expertise even reduces the energy cost of glyphs, wich are only useful if you use spells...does that make sense? No...
So please, don't nerf...
( Sidenote, I still remember back when R/E 's were used for glyph of concentration + traps..but they fixed the "bug" like 6 months ago )
So please, don't nerf...
( Sidenote, I still remember back when R/E 's were used for glyph of concentration + traps..but they fixed the "bug" like 6 months ago )
Fr_3_aK
Vote: Nerf touch rangers.
Expertise was meant to make only rangers use bows /traps because bows skills/ traps have high nrg costs.
As a necro im also insulted that our skills are being abused by rangers.
Anet nerfed MMs without even flinching, nerf touch rangers while you're at it. gg anet.
Expertise was meant to make only rangers use bows /traps because bows skills/ traps have high nrg costs.
As a necro im also insulted that our skills are being abused by rangers.
Anet nerfed MMs without even flinching, nerf touch rangers while you're at it. gg anet.
lyra_song
To add to this, other classes need stance breaking skills.
Eles: Body Crush: Earth spell: A large stone falls on your opponent and does X dmg. If opponent is in a stance, the stance ends.
Ranger: Arrow Net: Fire an arrow that does X dmg each. If any arrows are blocked or evaded, the target loses their stance.
Mesmer: Sword Mirage: Spell: Target receives X melee dmg. If this is blocked, the target is knocked down and ends their stance.
Eles: Body Crush: Earth spell: A large stone falls on your opponent and does X dmg. If opponent is in a stance, the stance ends.
Ranger: Arrow Net: Fire an arrow that does X dmg each. If any arrows are blocked or evaded, the target loses their stance.
Mesmer: Sword Mirage: Spell: Target receives X melee dmg. If this is blocked, the target is knocked down and ends their stance.
Undivine
Quote:
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Originally Posted by lyra_song
Mesmer: Sword Mirage: Spell: Target receives X melee dmg. If this is blocked, the target is knocked down and ends their stance.
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I wouldn't put too many stance breaking skills into the game though. Leave some things sacred, ya know?
Criminally Sane
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Originally Posted by The Real Roy Keane
The only place in the game the touch ranger comes even remotely close to being overpowered is in RA, so it's not really in need of a nerf at all.
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Ggraphix
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gargle Blaster
Vile Touch, Vampiric Touch, and Touch of Agony make them "Attack Skills"
i dont think the recharge times need to be fixed things that stop attacks would now have an impact -- like empathy, ineptitude, or sig of midnight... |
Isn't that the point of the game, skill strategy and setup, then how you use them?
Undivine
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ggraphix
Sorry to rain on your parade, but you just have to think of a way you're less vulnerable to those type of attacks if you're worried about losing.
Isn't that the point of the game, skill strategy and setup, then how you use them? |
Gargle Blaster
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ggraphix
Sorry to rain on your parade, but you just have to think of a way you're less vulnerable to those type of attacks if you're worried about losing. Isn't that the point of the game, skill strategy and setup, then how you use them?
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interupt... not an option with lag, casting times, and these are not spells.
e-denile... Sure if you suck out all the energy of a person they c/n use their skills.... but there is no counter to these skills after they have been triggered. And as i have said before in this thread energy drain is not unique to touch ranger... have you ever noticed that e-denile gets nerfed at every skill balance?
Degen... well this is not really a counter to touch ranger, is it, as they can out heal it.
snare + kite... all this does is make for a long game... as you are not killing them...
degen + snare + kite... finally somthing that works... oh wait is there any class that wont die to this... nothing but monk would live.
knockdowns -- good but you also must have somthing that does alot of damage and you must keep them down. (also on the list of things that get nerfed alot)
what i am suggesting is not a HUGE nerf... to say that blind would stop you from touching someone is not huge, rangers(with weapons) warriors and assassins must deal with blind why should touch rangers be any diffrent?
yes i understand nobody likes unneeded nerfs... but i have seen 0 arguments that support the idea that touch rangers are currently ballanced in anyway.
Please include any reasons WHY you think there should or shouldn't be a nerf.
Daxime
agreed, evasion stances and blind should apply to touch skills to. like Vampiric Bite, you think it's easier to Bite someone when you're blind than to swing a sword at them blind?
lyra_song
I actually found that the timing of punishing and savage vs a touch ranger this weekend in an alliance battle is perfect. Every time he began his touch, i popped him in the face. I threw in a debilitating shot just for kicks, and since i had apply poison and hunter's shot, he pretty much died running away (he got frustrated).
I really dont know what kind of solution there is to this if you are so unhappy.
We have a few options though:
Nerf Expertise to not include "Skills": Would remove warrior skills that a ranger could use. Would also completely KILL this build.
Nerf Touch skills to be attacks: Now the vampiric touches are attacks. But they dont involve a weapon, UNLIKE EVERY OTHER ATTACK. And now blindness and Empathy will affect you.
Consequentially this kind of nerf would bring to question ALL vampiric weapons and skills. Vampiric weapons can cause life steal even through things like Mist Form. If we nerf those two, why stop there and just nerf all the lifestealing techniques?
Increase recharge/cost Vampiric touch is a starting skill for Necromancers. I really dont like this option.
Buff some stances to include touch skills in evasion Two words: Deadly Riposte.
I really dont know what kind of solution there is to this if you are so unhappy.
We have a few options though:
Nerf Expertise to not include "Skills": Would remove warrior skills that a ranger could use. Would also completely KILL this build.
Nerf Touch skills to be attacks: Now the vampiric touches are attacks. But they dont involve a weapon, UNLIKE EVERY OTHER ATTACK. And now blindness and Empathy will affect you.
Consequentially this kind of nerf would bring to question ALL vampiric weapons and skills. Vampiric weapons can cause life steal even through things like Mist Form. If we nerf those two, why stop there and just nerf all the lifestealing techniques?
Increase recharge/cost Vampiric touch is a starting skill for Necromancers. I really dont like this option.
Buff some stances to include touch skills in evasion Two words: Deadly Riposte.
IllusiveMind
What gets abused gets nerfed. But too bad that they can't nerf this particular due to some in game mechanics like Lyra said "
"
So... learn to counter it, period.
Quote:
| Increase recharge/cost Vampiric touch is a starting skill for Necromancers. I really dont like this option. |
So... learn to counter it, period.
Undivine
Traditionally an effective way to nerf some builds has been to simply introduce new skills that counter it. Perhaps you can hope for some solution in chapter 3.
Chicken Ftw
Here's a skill that's been in the game since it's been out that works vs all melee chars. Kiting. Lern2play. <.<
Daxime
most touch rangers have both Dodge and Escape equipped.
TurinPT
I wouldnt say nerf... its more like a fix.
Where does it say expertise is supposed to reduce touch skills cost?
Where does it say expertise is supposed to reduce touch skills cost?
Chicken Ftw
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Daxime
most touch rangers have both Dodge and Escape equipped.
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I don't know how many times it has to be said, but this build's only mildly overpowered in RA. And alliance battle, which is 12 man RA. So... RA. In RA, a 4 wamo team can go to 10 consec easy. God forbid your team gets a monk, autowin unless he drops. Healing Hands > most mobs in PvE. Nerf? Nah. Don't nerf touch rangers for the same reason you don't nerf Healing Hands. In organized PvP, it's complete trash.
pipedream
Leave the build alone... why not nerf every good build someone comes up with? Whats the point in finding a great combo if you nerf it when its found? Thats the point of the hundreds of skills avaliable in this game. Many godly build are yet to be discovered especially with all the new factions skills and the already anticipated 3rd chapter.
There are counter measures that are very effective against Touch Rangers. Go to battle prepared to deal with them.
There are counter measures that are very effective against Touch Rangers. Go to battle prepared to deal with them.
pork soldier
crippling shot, pin down, crippling anguish, deep freeze, ice spikes, frozen burst, imagined burden, ethereal burden, spike trap, snare, barbed trap, iron mist....
All you have to do is learn to counter touch rangers and you've nerfed them, they're not hard to kill.
All you have to do is learn to counter touch rangers and you've nerfed them, they're not hard to kill.
batou
aw geez.. another nerf thread =/
Why nerfing tough rangers pointless:
The only place that touch rangers are effective is RA where everyone is unorganized. Any organized arenas, and a touch necro build is usually easily defeated.
is it to cheap that vamp touch is a skill not a spell? no. Sure its not affected by backfire and whatnot... but its still vurnerable to anti-skill skills. Blackout any1?
maybe you say that touches should be treated like a weapon attack skill?
Maybe touches should be suceptable to blind and weakness? Plague touch any1?
Why nerfing tough rangers pointless:
The only place that touch rangers are effective is RA where everyone is unorganized. Any organized arenas, and a touch necro build is usually easily defeated.
is it to cheap that vamp touch is a skill not a spell? no. Sure its not affected by backfire and whatnot... but its still vurnerable to anti-skill skills. Blackout any1?
maybe you say that touches should be treated like a weapon attack skill?
Maybe touches should be suceptable to blind and weakness? Plague touch any1?
Distant
I can 1 on 1 a touch ranger as war. But when there is an alliance of touch rangers...in Alliance Battle, its obviously unfair.
Anyone who has ever PVP'd has seen a touch ranger =P and I bet you have atleast heard 1 person go... D: that is an unfair build. Im not necessarily one of those people...but I do believe they need to be patched to keep whole alliances of them from screwing everyone else over <.<
So, I offer a solution..in the suggestions area of www.guildwars.com/support....and its really funny but they told me to make a post HERE about i O.o...er more specifically...on one of the fansites...<.< basically saying.. "No we dont care leave mmkay bye!" imo >.>
But in the fleeting hope that someone actually gives a damn...and more importantly can do something about it... I offer this solution for debate.
If we limit ranger expertise attribute to ranger ONLY skills (afterall...if your main is a ranger..shouldnt you be an expert ranger, not an expert secondary?) If this were done it would not hinder the use of ranger for 90% of builds. Most importantly it would clean PVP up from those touch ranger teenieboppers.
Undivine: Edited for continuity.
Anyone who has ever PVP'd has seen a touch ranger =P and I bet you have atleast heard 1 person go... D: that is an unfair build. Im not necessarily one of those people...but I do believe they need to be patched to keep whole alliances of them from screwing everyone else over <.<
So, I offer a solution..in the suggestions area of www.guildwars.com/support....and its really funny but they told me to make a post HERE about i O.o...er more specifically...on one of the fansites...<.< basically saying.. "No we dont care leave mmkay bye!" imo >.>
But in the fleeting hope that someone actually gives a damn...and more importantly can do something about it... I offer this solution for debate.
If we limit ranger expertise attribute to ranger ONLY skills (afterall...if your main is a ranger..shouldnt you be an expert ranger, not an expert secondary?) If this were done it would not hinder the use of ranger for 90% of builds. Most importantly it would clean PVP up from those touch ranger teenieboppers.
Undivine: Edited for continuity.