Necro Underestimation - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

BurningPants

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jul 2005

That Other Guild [Tog]

18 Jul 2005 at 20:27 - 1

Every time I go necro in any arena people are turned off. What's so bad about them?

I get blamed for a loss if I am a necro (same if I am a smiting monk) but people don't seem to realize how great necros are sometimes.

I dunno about you, but when i see a secondary necro I start to re-think my attack, there are tons of unique necro combinations out there and most of them work quite nicely. Even a primary necro is great stuff, soul reaping may not be the best class specific skill out there, but to get 16 death magic so my putrid explosion does very lethal damage is a small price to pay.

What do you guys think? Are necros underestimated too much?

Discuss.

Algren Cole

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2005

18 Jul 2005 at 20:28 - 2

the fact that anyone is turned off by any class is just ignorance. they've never played the character so they assume the character is useless. All of the character classes in Guild Wars are completely balanced. No one class is better than any other class.

Ultimate_Gaara

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

BC, Canada.. how aboot that eh?

18 Jul 2005 at 21:06 - 3

i think too many people picture necros as minion masters, which people dont like i guess.. they dont understand how good Necros can become...

Eagle923

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

18 Jul 2005 at 21:12 - 4

Definitely underestimated. I'm setup as a spike healer for PvP. I focus on dealing with the ele spikers and rarely build up for protection/DOT healing. Last night I ran into a group with a very good necro... plague touch >>> Word of Healing.

I'd have to wait until the team got low enough in health for WoH to be useful and then half the team was 50% low. If I had healing breeze instead...

AeroLion

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

18 Jul 2005 at 21:23 - 5

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

the fact that anyone is turned off by any class is just ignorance. they've never played the character so they assume the character is useless. All of the character classes in Guild Wars are completely balanced. No one class is better than any other class.

Exactly. Too many people are caught up on the whole tank/nuker/healer beats all combination. If they would only realize that bringing a balanced group leads to a much better conclusion.

Ollj

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

18 Jul 2005 at 21:27 - 6

underestimated like no other class.

Btw purtid explusion is best around 12 death magic only, because you dont get THAT much for each point more.
You only need death magic maxed for minons, soul feast, dark aura, dethly chill and virulence... here every point is worth it.

necros "spike" with minons, wither, descerate enchantments, malaise and barbs.
For everything else above 13 atribute is just not as usefull.

and than theres suffering + any hexes + feast of corruption, its like knockdown hammerers, just with hexes and not melee.
and if you dont get into soul reaping, youre ignorant!

Zeru

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2005

18 Jul 2005 at 21:33 - 7

Necros aren't underestimated in pvp. They are easily the crappiest primary profession in the game and only useful for special builds where SR or runes are useful, i,e OOV/BiP/OOP spam, Putrid in hoh, and condition spam setups. Necro secs are insanely useful for stuff like rend but primaries aren't worth it in most cases. Add in the fact that most necro primaries are newbs running around with life transfer/vampiric gaze and stuff and you can see why people detest them. General perception is wrong most of the time but they're dead on in this case with necros for pvp.

In pve they are amazing, but I don't think that was the point of the topic.

The Destroyer

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2005

18 Jul 2005 at 21:33 - 8

Personally never played a necro myself but I love having one on my team! They really help all around. They can heal, deal decent damage, and semi tank. Not to mention recharge everyones energy. They make hard areas a lot easier. Hug a Necro today!

InFeStEd

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

Pirates of Blountville

N/Me

18 Jul 2005 at 21:36 - 9

I agree, i have a bloodline necro that eats most classes alive. No one really builds agains -10 degens or expects a necro to have a pretty constant +10 regen. along with good dmg skills that also heal you, and hexes that cause other classes to become more inferior, i would highly recommend necros. Also, soul reaping is very useful, i wouldn't max it, maybe 7-8 points. It's just nice to suddenly have some extra mana when you're enemy dies, or to even gain more mana when one of your team mates die.

InFeStEd

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

Pirates of Blountville

N/Me

18 Jul 2005 at 21:38 - 10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Necros aren't underestimated in pvp. They are easily the crappiest primary profession in the game and only useful for special builds where SR or runes are useful, i,e OOV/BiP/OOP spam, Putrid in hoh, and condition spam setups. Necro secs are insanely useful for stuff like rend but primaries aren't worth it in most cases. Add in the fact that most necro primaries are newbs running around with life transfer/vampiric gaze and stuff and you can see why people detest them. General perception is wrong most of the time but they're dead on in this case with necros for pvp.

In pve they are amazing, but I don't think that was the point of the topic.

I fail to see how life transfer is newb? by using that skill, you are doing dmg as well as saving a monk from healing one less person.

Red Locust

Site Contributor

Join Date: May 2005

18 Jul 2005 at 21:48 - 11

Necro primaries are quite bad in arenas. You get maybe 3 or 4 kills in the arena before you win, so that's not much use for soul reaping. Same with putrid, it's only good in the tombs where you get lots of bodies to blow up.

InFeStEd

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

Pirates of Blountville

N/Me

18 Jul 2005 at 21:57 - 12

3 - 4 kills at 8-12 energy a pop = 32-48 mana = 6-9 more 5 energy spells, 3-5 10 energy spells, or 2-3 15 energy spells more than another character over the course of the battle. fairly significant if you ask me, especially for energy reliant classes.

Red Locust

Site Contributor

Join Date: May 2005

18 Jul 2005 at 22:14 - 13

Quote:

Originally Posted by InFeStEd

3 - 4 kills at 8-12 energy a pop = 32-48 mana = 6-9 more 5 energy spells, 3-5 10 energy spells, or 2-3 15 energy spells more than another character over the course of the battle. fairly significant if you ask me, especially for energy reliant classes.

Let's compare this to the other alternative - energy storage, around 36 energy to begin with. Also take into account that if you're on even terms with the enemy, people aren't gonna be dying, yet you will still have that 36 energy from storage.
Once you get 2 or 3 kills, the battle is arguably over. The extra energy on death isn't gonna tilt the battle in your favor, but rather help you mop up the enemy or prolong your death. Having 36 extra energy to begin with, lets you actually use it to get an upper hand over the enemy while the fight still isn't decided.

From my point of view, soul reaping is quite inferior compared to other primary attributes.

ComMan

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

18 Jul 2005 at 22:14 - 14

I've been on an HoH team that was half-killed (as in, half our members died) in an instant because a necro spammed Putrid exploison near the end of our battle with another team. The rest of the team proceeded to sweep us out like garbage.

Necros have a place in Tombs, it's just a very...odd one. It's hard to say what to do with a Necro, because they can be very circumstantial. The "decimate your team with putrid explosion" example above is iffy, but it worked. I've also seen minion armies in Tombs, but only in the 6 team battles (I haven't seen a suicide team yet).

I also like the Order of Pain & Vampire combo a lot, I wish more people ran that.

Lorelei

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2005

Somewhere unexpected

18 Jul 2005 at 22:16 - 15

Yippy, we have warrior, ranger and necros worthless. Three more classes to go and we are all balanced!

YellowMarker161

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jun 2005

N/Me

18 Jul 2005 at 22:18 - 16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Let's compare this to the other alternative - energy storage, around 36 energy to begin with. Also take into account that if you're on even terms with the enemy, people aren't gonna be dying, yet you will still have that 36 energy from storage.
Once you get 2 or 3 kills, the battle is arguably over. The extra energy on death isn't gonna tilt the battle in your favor, but rather help you mop up the enemy or prolong your death. Having 36 extra energy to begin with, lets you actually use it to get an upper hand over the enemy while the fight still isn't decided.

From my point of view, soul reaping is quite inferior compared to other primary attributes.

But what happens if you don't want to be an ele, but want to have some mesmer in you also?

Nightsorrow

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

Servants of Fortuna

N/

18 Jul 2005 at 22:23 - 17

I play a Necro primary as my main character, but I will freely admit that (in my experience) in the Arenas, Soul Reaping is the most inferior primary attribute of any class - I MUCH prefer playing a Me/N as basically a Necro with fast casting, although there's a loss of runes that way.

PvE however - I love playing a Necro primary. Blood is Power, Well of Blood (with superior rune and awaken the blood, gets to +6 iirc, well 1 higher than a secondary can get anyway) along with Vampric Gaze, Barbed Signet, Shadow Strike - all dealing lifestealing armour-ignoring damage

Red Locust

Site Contributor

Join Date: May 2005

18 Jul 2005 at 23:56 - 18

Quote:

Originally Posted by YellowMarker161

But what happens if you don't want to be an ele, but want to have some mesmer in you also?

Well then, you'd probably be spreading your attribute points among at least 3 attributes, and as such won't have too many points to spare for soul reaping or fast casting. In which case, I'd still pick fast casting over soul reaping, since it is always useful (especially with the frequent 2 second cast times of many necro hexes).
The only time I would really go necro primary is if I really want to beef a skill up to 16 attribute pts. and there aren't that many 16-worthy skills on the necro lineup. Putrid is one of the few.

goldfinger

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2005

19 Jul 2005 at 02:49 - 19

First time I got in a non-idiot build in the hall of heros with my necro was a good one... I packed defile flesh, rigor mortis, feintheart, rend, syphon, gaze, and the spiteful spirit. People were explicitely thanking me because they realized how much easier it is to take down monks when healing is cut, block/evade enchantments and wards are negated and major enchantments saved for dire times are ripped off.

Sunrazor

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2005

19 Jul 2005 at 03:11 - 20

Yesterday, I was looking for a pickup ground for Thirsty River as Necromancer/Mesmer. In my opinion, my ability to take down a single given target in PVE is stronger as an N/Me than any sort of other class combination would be for me. No one would take me (that I was a level 16 probably had something to do with it too, but hey…).

I finally managed to get in a group with a Monk, a Warrior, a Ranger, an Elementalist and another Necromancer. We burned through the mission. We beat the first group with about 1:30 on the clock, the second group with 3:40 or so on the clock, and the final group with about 5:20 on the clock. The Elementalist spent most of his time dead while we Necromancers did the nuking. It was the fastest I’ve ever gone through that mission. It got funny when the enemy would be focusing on us Necromancers, because then the monk could take a break from healing and go revive the Elementalist – we were able to gain health fast enough that the monk was able to leave us for a while without worrying.

Since I started playing as a Necromancer, I’ve really come to appreciate just how good the class is. It’s almost as flexible as the Ranger, and it makes both a fantastic support character and a nuker.

Malchiel

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

19 Jul 2005 at 04:06 - 21

My N/W eats warriors, rangers and eles for breakfast ;p Especially in the arena.

The only class I kinda fear are the mezes... but few of them are good. So, shurgs.

SOT

Banned

Join Date: May 2005

East Texas

19 Jul 2005 at 04:09 - 22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

the fact that anyone is turned off by any class is just ignorance. they've never played the character so they assume the character is useless. All of the character classes in Guild Wars are completely balanced. No one class is better than any other class.

I agree 100%

Masked Killah

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

Killahs United

R/E

19 Jul 2005 at 04:10 - 23

I have never had a nerco so i don't know to much. but from the ones i have played with. NERCOS ROCK!!! they r great for pve and pvp i dunno what they r talking about.

bioxeed

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2005

Circle of Nine

N/W

19 Jul 2005 at 04:24 - 24

they are the ultimate caster support (bip, ritual, wop) and the best can openers (of all their direct damage spells all of 2 are affected by armour). They can hex it up as good as mesmers and disenchant better than most (rend enchantments ftw). what's not to like?

Zrave

Elite Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

19 Jul 2005 at 05:30 - 25

Part of the reason why necros are underestimated was some of the discussions before release where soul reaping would get knocked on. Furthermore, I'd have to say that necros are probably the hardest class to design an effective build for. Mesmers are hard too, but at least the have a more clearly defined role. This means that it is easier to design a bad necro build, yet its unusual to see a strong necro dominating a match like you can see other classes doing sometimes.

This causes some people to discredit the class entirely, but I think that it has some very unique mechanics that can't really be filled by any other class.

Lord Malikai

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Colorado

Imperial Fist Guild Leader

W/E

19 Jul 2005 at 06:53 - 27

Dunno what the hell whoever said Necro sucks in arenas is talking about. My necro rips people apart and is usually the last person standing.

cat1982

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

The Order of the Skull

19 Jul 2005 at 06:58 - 28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Malikai

Dunno what the hell whoever said Necro sucks in arenas is talking about. My necro rips people apart and is usually the last person standing.

Gotta say I agree, my necro has been pretty damn resilient in PvP matches

sino-soviet

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2005

Israel before, CA now.

R/Me

19 Jul 2005 at 07:00 - 29

1) Soul reaping to far too situational to be as useful as another more reliable primary attribute.
2) If you arent going to use soul reaping, there is absolutely no reason to run a necro primary.

Celes Tial

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Pirates of BBQ Bay

Mo/Me

19 Jul 2005 at 09:36 - 30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Once you get 2 or 3 kills, the battle is arguably over.

Maybe if rez skills did not exist.

It is possible to reap from 8-10 deaths in a single 4v4 fight.

Celes Tial

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

Pirates of BBQ Bay

Mo/Me

19 Jul 2005 at 09:40 - 31

Quote:

Originally Posted by sino-soviet

2) If you arent going to use soul reaping, there is absolutely no reason to run a necro primary.

There is. Blood and curses at the very least.

Van the Warrior

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

In Yak's Bend like always...

W/

19 Jul 2005 at 10:10 - 32

necro's are jerks, i hate fighting against them because the "right" necro will always refuse to die and take 3 people with him when it is 4 vs 2.......coincedentally they are also the necro's i like on my side.....

shinseikaze

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

Dark Side Of The Force

E/Mo

19 Jul 2005 at 10:34 - 33

necros are great support characters for casters

Feli

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2005

19 Jul 2005 at 10:48 - 34

I'd say necro/mesmer are the better anticasters. Mesmers are great in that anticaster job but they are top priority target aside from monks and thus -> dead real soon.
Necros are allways like the last target as everyone thinks them weak... by then i've caused hell of a havoc by interrupting and eating up enchantments. Why should i go fastcast when interrupts have no cast time anyway?

Mithie

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2005

Rest En Pieces [RIP]

Me/W

19 Jul 2005 at 12:13 - 35

Whoever said necros were useless in arena has obviously never had a N/W whack them to death with a big hammer at close range. Well, okay, that never happens, but nonetheless.

Saerden

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2005

19 Jul 2005 at 15:23 - 36

There is a huge difference between N/X and X/N ... and the only good reason so far to go N/X is to be considered weak and useless, and therefor not be a priority target...

When people say that necros are worthless, they mean that PRIMARY necros are worthless... E/N > N/X in most cases that dont involve special builds... there are few uses for necro runes, and soul reaping is much worse then energy storage in pvp usually... dont mention powerfull necro skills and claim that necros rock... sure X/N rock, but people are talking about N/X, so give reasons why you need THEM...

Algren Cole

Banned

Join Date: Jun 2005

19 Jul 2005 at 15:29 - 37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

There is a huge difference between N/X and X/N ... and the only good reason so far to go N/X is to be considered weak and useless, and therefor not be a priority target...

When people say that necros are worthless, they mean that PRIMARY necros are worthless... E/N > N/X in most cases that dont involve special builds... there are few uses for necro runes, and soul reaping is much worse then energy storage in pvp usually... dont mention powerfull necro skills and claim that necros rock... sure X/N rock, but people are talking about N/X, so give reasons why you need THEM...

why do you need a monk? I can keep myself healed perfectly fine without the need of a monk....why do you need a warrior...I can tank perfectly fine without the need of a warrior...etc etc etc....stop outwardly displaying your ignorance.

Darksci

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Apr 2005

London

Lords Of The Immortal [Loti]

R/W

19 Jul 2005 at 15:30 - 38

Personally i'd only accept a necromancer in the group if they had "Well of power", that skill really shines, the energy gain really helps any magic user. I'd accept a nuker over a necro for that skill.

Other than that, if they don't have that skill, then for the healing i'd either get lina or alesia.

ComMan

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2005

19 Jul 2005 at 15:30 - 39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feli

Why should i go fastcast when interrupts have no cast time anyway?

Because Fast Casting affects recharge time.

Necro primaries are more or less useful depending on your secondary class. If you're an N/R or N/W, you might want the extra energy and regen. If you're an N/E, N/Me, or N/Mo then you probably are going down the wrong route though.

The biggest argument the "necro primaries suck" guys are making is that an Ele/N is more powerful than an N/Ele, because of energy storage vs. Soul Reaping.

Epinephrine

Master of Beasts

Join Date: Mar 2005

Ottawa, Canada

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

19 Jul 2005 at 15:37 - 40

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComMan

Because Fast Casting affects recharge time.

So wrong it's funny. Please don't misinform; fast casting does NOT affect recharge time, UNLESS you use a particular skill to do so (Mantra of Recovery). It is not a very useful skill to my knowledge, I have yet to hear of a good build using it.

Fast Casting only affects the time to cast a spell. This can help with all those 2 second and 3 second hexes out there, but if you are going Necro primary in PvP it is either for a specialised build that actually needs Soul Reaping or for the ability to use necro runes to boost your attributes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darksci

Personally i'd only accept a necromancer in the group if they had "Well of power", that skill really shines, the energy gain really helps any magic user. I'd accept a nuker over a necro for that skill.

Other than that, if they don't have that skill, then for the healing i'd either get lina or alesia.

Then you haven't played with enough necros. I'm assuming that you mean in PvE, as nobody in their right mind will bring the henchies into PvP. And my blood curses necro does so much for a party it isn't funny, without needing Well of Power. You should see what a level 17 Mark of Pain does when you have a tank that can cluster enemies and some good rapidfire physical attackers.

PieXags

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

The Infinite Representation Of Pie And Its Many Brilliances

19 Jul 2005 at 15:57 - 41

Necromancers are by no means bad characters, they're just harder to master and play than most other classes. I've had to change the secondary on my necro now 5 times trying to find right combinations, searching for the right line, trying to find something that really works, and it's difficult to play using many of the skills necros are given. There are a lot of them that are good, but require a lot of timing and concentration by the necromancer. I've gone and played every class to lvl 20 and beyond and my necromancer is definately the hardest to get used to and use effectively, but once you DO manage to perfect the necromancer profession (or at least master it enough to the point of being extremely effective) you can become one of the most dangerous players on the battlefield. Those who recognize this often come out on top, because when necros are allowed to work their magic in the background like they want they cause problems. Some of the hardest groups I've ever fought were composed of mainly necromancers (and they weren't minion masters) or they go for necromancers, before monks in the take-down line.

Necros are hard characters to play well is all.