Jump, Climb, Swim - This Game is Missing Basic Fundamental Human Movements

Ok, so far no one's replied to the biggest glaring problem about swimming and jumping: Armor and general encumberance. I completely agree. What about water current? While we're at it, how about slipping in the mud when it rains? Everyone argues about freedom of movement, but all I hear is the benefits of it. I don't hear about any of the downsides that come along with it. Freedom comes with a price (and don't tell me the price for freedom is eternal vigilance ).

You can jump in WoW? Great! Can you sprain your ankle for landing incorrectly, because of all the stuff you're carrying? Do the jumps get smaller because you get winded?

Someone mentioned a combat application to jumping? Like what, jumping to get that head shot in FPSs?

I've seen my friend swim in EQ, I wasn't impressed.

To be honest, I don't see jumping or swimming impacting this game THAT much.

As for my wishlist:
A slightly better way to target a Mob; as much as I try to click the Mobs name, sometimes I miss and end up running to the spot on the terrain I clicked.
Also, Macros.

Obviously you missed this part of my post.
it is kinda the same thing in an MMO. being stuck to the ground does not add to that feeling and in many ways deeply subtracts from that feeling. Nothing we say about an MMO can really use the world realism as none of the stuff going on in those games are actually from the real world. If it was truely realistic, it would be pretty dang boring.

We also cant have sex, drink and get drunk, start a bar fight, Go to work, pay bills, sit in a chair and watch tv, play another video game while we are on a computer in that world.

So whats your point? This isnt about realism, its about the ability to move freely within a world.

I take it here no one has ever tried to jump in full chain mail, let alone plate mail.

Not happening, not doing it, and yes I have (SCA, Ren Fairs, etc). Even using modern materials to make it... you're not going to jump down this 3 foot creavat wearing 40-100 + lbs of metal and leather, carrying a bunch of weapons, and lets not forget the weight on your back in your backpack.

Oh, and swimming in that? YEAH! it'd be called sinking.

Leave it be. It's technically, when you look at the physics in the real world and you take into account everything... more realistic now.

Yeah, to go swimming, who here is going to remove their armor, leave it on the side of the bank, go do what you need to, then swim back and put it all back on?

Even leather armor would be ruined by swimming, as wax is only so good to treat things for so long.

I'd say the other games are a bit more unrealistic then this when they let a knight in full platemail do a 5 foot leap or even try to climb the side of a rock face, or even swim in the water at all that's deeper then he is tall.

Wouldn't happen in real life.

WRONG

the only people yelling it was a MMORPG were the reviewers who didnt bother to listen to the people making the game who specifically said it was not an MMORPG

Rather than labeling Guild Wars an MMORPG, we prefer to call it a CORPG (Competitive Online Role-Playing Game).

also if you are going to yell how bad it is at least buy the game before trolling how much it is lacking in your opinion

Umm, I HAVE the game. Bought it the day it came out. Therefore my opinion is not lacking and is most definatly not trolling. I noticed you liked to clip that one small section from the entire section from there website discussing if it is an mmorpg. here, let me provide you with the FULL clip so as you dont take things completely out of context.


Is Guild Wars an MMORPG (Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game)?

Guild Wars has some similarities to existing MMORPGs, but it also has some key differences. Like existing MMOs, Guild Wars is played entirely online in a secure hosted environment. Thousands of players inhabit the same virtual world. Players can meet new friends in gathering places like towns and outposts where they form parties and go questing with them. Unlike many MMOs, when players form a party and embark upon a quest in Guild Wars, they get their own private copy of the area where the quest takes place. This design eliminates some of the frustrating gameplay elements commonly associated with MMOs, such as spawn camping, kill stealing, and lines to complete a quest.

Right here they are implying that it is an MMO. but in actuality, the only true similarities it has to an existing MMORPG is the fact that it is online.

Guild Wars takes place in a large virtual world made up of many different zones, and players can walk from one end of the world to the other. In Guild Wars much of the tedium of traveling through the world has been eliminated. Players can instantly return to any safe area (town or outpost) that they have previously visited just by clicking on it in the world overview map.

Rather than labeling Guild Wars an MMORPG, we prefer to call it a CORPG (Competitive Online Role-Playing Game). Guild Wars was designed from the ground up to create the best possible competitive role-playing experience. Success in Guild Wars is always the result of player skill, not time spent playing or the size of one's guild. As characters progress, they acquire a diverse set of skills and items, enabling them to use new strategies in combat. Players can do battle in open arenas or compete in guild-vs-guild warfare or the international tournament. Engaging in combat is always the player's choice, however; there is no player-killing in cooperative areas of the world.

hrmm, first they compare themselves to an MMO and then they remove the MM from the MMO. Cant have it both ways, it either is or isnt.

Finally, unlike existing MMOs, all characters in Guild Wars inhabit the same virtual world -- they are not divided onto different servers or shards -- so players can always team up with or compete against any other player in the world.

For regular MMO's this has mostly been required to accomodate the total mass of people. they arent the first group to put everyone inside of one virtual world, although I do prefer that idea.

So, care to slam me some more? I have the game, I like the game, I wish for some things to be changed and I posted. I have not slamed you or anyone else or called you a troll because you expressed your opinions. If you dont like what I say, fine, say it,but you can do it without name calling. If the company wants to retract there ideas of this being very similar to an MMO and flat out state that its an RPG with online capabilities, then I am willing to concede that and shut the hell up. If your going to market something as an mmo or similar to an mmo then you need the basic functionality of existing mmos... I am agreeing with the poster and asking for the changes to be put in, not because they are realistic or not, but because its a bsaic functionality of any MMO.

just as a reminder this "Gather here to discuss suggestions or new ideas for Guild Wars"

this is just a suggestion forum. let people make suggestions. about 90% of everybody posts are bashing on what someody else wanted to implament in the game.

this if for sure the best game i've ever played. i dont think it needs anything else to make it better cause it's already at the top, but that doesn't mean i dont have any suggestions. swimming would be good, and make it fun. jumping would make it a little more realistic. anything is possible. i'm not saying it's needed. but it is a suggestion.


be nice. play for keeps.

people are never satisfy. WHy doesn't character just literally fly through the end of quest. Will that make people happy? NO, people will complain about that too...

If you can jump you will ignore so much battle and scenery. It means you will travel in straight path all the time to end of quest. You don't have to but you will want to take shortcuts. You will just hop around mountains and hills to end of quest. why would you want to? Sure, it's more freedom but it sacrificing other elements.
Programmer design it this way for quest to be challenging. The experience is much more rewarding. It's part of Story line.

For short Example of why jumping can be bad.

You and your buddies are in quest. You will travel road in many directions. (jump: u will not. it be straight path). You fight through all kind of monsters.. Big and small.. Strang looking monsters. (JUmp: why finght. when u can jump around them) then, you finally come to temple in flames with dragon blocking the way (jump: no big wow moment. You didn't fight hundered monsters to get there). ON top of temple, you see uber sword waiting for you to grab. You fight with dragon hard with all your might and you win to get the sword (jump: you just jump aroudn the dragon and took the sword and ran).
I'm trying to say. Game designer want you to experience there storyline.
Like any good RPG should. It's about story and how you carry them out.

Please, do not think of this as any other MMORPG.
it's new breed. eh.. More like evolution.
This game meant to feel more like Traditonal RPG but you can share your experience with friends. I like the decision they made. Best of Both world.

ummm....they are NOT implying in any way it is an MMORPG

to quote your posting (i didnt waste the space originally by posting the full GW info) note they stress key differences

Guild Wars has some similarities to existing MMORPGs, but it also has some key differences. Like existing MMOs, Guild Wars is played entirely online in a secure hosted environment.

as for the buying it my apologies that was meant for the person above who said he hadnt bought it

my oops for not being clear on that

No, no, I get it. You're arguing rationally and I'm cool with that. I just don't see how jumping would impact this game if it had it (other than getting around being stuck). It's just that people arguing for a jump make it sound like it'll bust the game wide open for endless possibilities.

(This next part isn't anything against you personally, this is just an observation )
As far as immersing myself... well my first MMORPG was PSO, then FF XI, so I guess I've never known the joy of jumping, so I'm not missing anything. Jumping just doesn't seem that important.

I'm not saying you're dumb b/c you can't enjoy the game like I can; we're just stating our opinions and there's nothing wrong with that.

... but getting to my point...
All games function on some sense of suspension of disbelief. I don't see how jumping breaks it for this game. If this game had a log in the middle of the road that I couldn't walk around, then I guess I could see how it would ruin the game for me, but I assume that the developers didn't put any logs in the road.

Hmm, as an SCAer myself, and one who has built his own armour, let me assure you that I can swim in my chainmail. It's not pretty, but I did 2 lengths of a pool to show it can be done, and I treaded water for about 2 minutes before getting too tired, dropping to the bottom and walking out (that was funny, the bottom of the pool had algae, so as I tried to walk up the ramp I slid back, I ended up bouncing out by jumping to surface repeatedly...). My byrnie is about 40 pounds, with half sleeves and falls to roughly my mid thighs, belted up it ditributes the weight between my shoulders and hips and falls to about my crotch. I also do rollerblading in it as well as pushups, and am not afraid of a little drop. I wouldn't want to try swimming with plates on top, that's true, and it was a draining for me (and I am a good swimmer, did lifeguarding courses).

I still don't think we need jumping though.

Your right, they stress there are key differences but it is still implied that it is more of an MMORPG then it is a single player rpg game with online support.

This is not a new generation game. well, let me rephrase that. It is new for the static single player rpgs. this is an upgrade for them, but its far from being anywhere near to being classified or even implied that it is an MMORPG.
Even in their interviews when people said "Is this an MMORPG". their answer is Yes and No. If that doesnt imply that THEY feel it is like an MMO only different, then I dont know what does.

I ran a persistant world in NWN. great module, my users had tons of fun on it. Lets look at what it had. Persistant world, it was always up. the world would change when I added new content. Users could interact anywhere in the game, not just towns. They grouped together in their own groups, they could PK each other, they could KS each others mobs, mobs repsawned so you had camping and what not, you had tons of quests, if you died you respawned and had to work off debt, etc... What it did not do is allow freedom of movement. you to was tied down to the world and restricted by the fact that your paths were already predetermined. It was a huge downfall for alot of people. But alas, here is something that it truely failed at. if you had to restart the game, you were not sent back to where you left off, you were sent back to the start point of the module. Exactly what GW does when you log out and come back on.

The problem was the game, it was designed to be that way, it was designed to be a multi user game but not at a scale that would classify it as an MMORPG. it was in essence a single player rpg that allowed you to play with other people.

Everything about this game screams NWN persistant world module. It screams I am a single player RPG game that allows users to interact. However, it can do it on a bigger scale then what my 1 little machine did with that module.

With all of that, I believe I have stated a few times in a few threads, I like the game for what it is. I like the game for what it COULD become. If things like freedom of movement (i.e. jumping, swimming, no predetermined paths to take), Logging out in an instance while doing a mission and come back to the same spot you where at, instead of back in the starting area, Mobs not in the same spot everytime you go through the world, Triggers being used for certain aspects of the game, not for every creature to spawn and attack you, More randomness to the game itself. These things being changed could put it right in line with any MMORPG on the market and they could claim that it was an MMORPG.

I would like to see the devs themselves speak up on these subjects and see how they think about it.

Oh and let me just state, its not just jumping that is so important.Its the ability to move freely. anytime you are tied down or restricted, it can take away from the enjoyment of the game itself. I want to experience the entire world, not just the predefined pathways that have been setup for me. Someone said you could just bypass all the content. You are right, UNLESS the designers are smart enough not to place all their creatures in a linear fashion and populated the entire world instead. then you dont bypass stuff.

It's linear because they want it that way. It makes it easy to control what you face and balance the game accordingly. Less getting lost; makes for good terrain (I love being way up on a hill with a bow, knowing they have to come all the way around) etc... I understand where you are coming from but I think it's unrealistic to expect it to change, as it would require remapping everything and possibly altering the engine significantly. Suggestions that are simple and easy to implement with benefits are good (like the customising of health bar colours for the colourblind - easy to add, doesn't affect anybody else) and likely to be taken seriously, requests to add flying mounts for example are less likely to be implemented I would guess due to the demand on programmers, changes to game content and so on.

The MMORPG that held my attention for a good year and a half (Dark Age of Camalot) had swimming above and below water, underwater fighting, and even whole dungeons underwater along with jumping and climbing. After playing GW for even the short period of time that I have (about a week), I don't miss those things at all. It just plays great. So far in GW I've yet to drown, get stuck on a ladder, or accidentally fall off of a cliff and die. (Easier to do than it sounds with lag, which I've also never had with GW either) Do these things add to realism? Maybe, but I don't need 'em.

EDIT: Bah, didn't notice there were 3 pages so if the content seems off of the current train of thought, sorry.

Yep, your right it is because thats the way they made it. It just wasnt marketed that way.

However, I will say that this is a suggestion forum. any suggestion no matter how crazy it sounds to you, doesnt matter, its for the devs to see and decide for themselves. I seen so many people bashing the poor OP for wanting to have these things in the game simply because it was what he and every other single MMORPG player have come to expect from an MMO. Granted there were some on the other side as well, but it mostly came from the, this isnt wow, this is a different game crowd. Try giving the other posters some respect and it will come back at you, bash them and you just make yourself look worse.

I got to say that I never said I "expected" it to change. I HOPE that it will change, but I dont expect it. My points have been partially to inform the devs what MMORPG fans really like and expect in an MMO. Im sorry that many people dont understand the marketing that went behind this game and made it seem to be like an MMO. It is not, it is a plain RPG. That is not a bad thing. Frankly I have very much enjoyed the story line in the game and do plan on finishing it out. However, I doubt I will be buying any expansion packs simply because I doubt they will change it from its current format to the format that it was more marketed to. I happen to be a fan of rpgs when they do a good job of telling the story. The cut scenes in the game are nice, but unrealistic as even their mouths do not move when they speak. Another minor annoyance that I have found, but I have been able to live with them for the most part.

However, one thing that is in dire need of fixing is the fact that if someone drops when your in a group, your out of luck, they cant get back into the instance. How long was this thing in beta? One of the CORE functions of the game (grouping) has a huge major flaw in it. How could that one get passed years of testing? if it wasnt for the ability to group with others, this would be a single player rpg only. its the only thing that gives it its edge over most other single player rpgs. Anyways, thats a rant for another thread.

Yes, it doesn't even have walking. If they don't want to code walking I wouldn't expect to see swiming and certainly not jumping.

it'd change the gameplay of the maps, they were designed the way they were for a reason, adding jumping would not only be changing the code in a fairly big way, but it would also alter the gameplay, and it'd open pandora's boxes of bugs

Personally one of my favorite things about RPG's and something I find lacking in is the ability to levitate or fly, Morrowind does it nicely, EQ is pretty good, but for a game like GW not to have it bugs me.

No flying creatures to shoot with the bow or cast a fireball at, no levitating over and out of area's you get trapped in by henchmen or stuck in some rocks etc.

Yes they have the odd bird or butterfly crusing around but as a caster flying or at least levitate should be in every RPG, MMO.

Especially flying Dragons.

Dude.....

A GvG, one flieng guild...

...and you've only brought one ranger.....

......meep....

I do not even care if I can not jump down a cliff, leave everything the way it is and just allow people to JUMP! I loved just running around jumping in WoW for the hell of it. I go to press space all the time and then I end up chasing something instead.